cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 49

cahn

Celebrating 5 years very soon?! :D

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hohwohlgebohrner Herr,
Insonders Hochgeehrtester Herr Geheimer-Cämmerer!

Der Umstand wegen dero unter des Cammer-Diener Glaso
Sachen gefundenen Petschafts hat mir einig Unruhe erwe-
cket, weil ich aus Eu. Hochwohlgeb. letzteren Schreiben, so die-
selben in (or an?) Berlin an mich abzulassen geruhet, nicht un-
deutlich ersehe, dass dieselben jemand in Verdacht haben,
der ihm dasselbe müsse zugesteckt haben. Ich habe mich
dahero sogleich nach meiner Ankunft in Dresden, die gestern
Nachmittage erfolget, nach dem Zusammenhang dieser
Sache erkundiget, und kann Eu. Hochwohlgeb. nun-
mehro zu dero Beruhigung gantz zuverlässig melden,
dass ein hiesiger Petschier-Stecher auf Völckers Veran-
lassung dero Petschaft nach einem Abdruck, der noch dazu
in drey Stücken zerbrochen gewesen, hat verfertigen müssen,
und dafür 2 rth. bekommen. So viel habe ich von dem
Kellerschreiber Müller, dem die Untersuchung dieser
Affaire committiret gewesen, nur kürzlich erfahren können,
der Herr Geheime-Cämmerer Leining, wird solches, dafern
es verlanget wird, auch allemahl attestiren. Heute Nach-
mittage reise ich nach Lockwitz ab, und sodann werde
ein mehreres schreiben.

H. Gl. ist vorgestern noch Spandow abgeführet
worden. Von Völckern sagt man, dass er desertiren
wollen, aber wieder eingehohlet und daraus in Ketten
gelegt worden.

Ich empfehle mich Eu. Hochwohlgeb. zu gnädigen Wohl-
wollen, und ersterbe in der gewöhnlichen redlichen
Gesinnung,

Eu. Hochwohlgeb.

gehorsamster treuer Diener
Gentze

Dresden
de 12. Ap. 1757

P.S. Mr. Rauthe, der eben da ich gegenwärtiges schließe, von
Lockwitz ankömmt, bittet mich, dass ich Eu. Hochwohlgeb.
seinen respect vermelden, und dabey er suchen soll.
Sie möchten es ihm ja nicht ungnädig aufnehmen,
dass Er bey seinen Abreise von Potsdam nicht seine
Schuldigkeit beobachten und Abschied nehmen können.
Er versichert mir, dass ihm nichts als ein strenger
Befehl, nach welchem ihm solches ausdrücklich verbothen
worden, davon abgehalten.

As always, bold means I'm especially unsure and would like input, but anything could be wrong!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hochwohlgebohrner Herr,
Gnädiger Herr Geheimer-Cämmerer!

Die häufige Arbeit, so ich in den ersten Tagen meiner Anhero-
kunft gefunden, hat mir noch nicht erlauben wollen, Eu. Hochwohlgeb.
meiner Schuldigkeit nach von meinen gegenwärtigen Umstän-
den Nachricht zu geben. Dieselben sind Gott sey danck recht
gut, und so beschaffen, dass ich dem Ziel meiner Zeitlichen Ver-
sorgung immer näher gekommen zu seyn, mir schmeicheln
darf. Der Herr Geheime-Cämmerer Leining, mein gegen-
wärtigen Chef, haben die Gütigkeit gehabt, dem Könige vor mei-
ner Ankunft zu sagen, dass ich Eu. Hochwohlgeb. einige Jahre zu
dienen die Ehre gehabt, worauf Se. König. Maj. allergnä-
digst befohlen, dass man mich kommen lassen möchte. Wozu
dieser Umstand mir in der folgenden Zeit und vielleicht
nach geendigter Campagne nutzbar werden kann, sehen dieselben
besser als ich ein. Kurtz ich habe alles gutes zu hoffen. Schlägt
mir meine Hoffnung aber auch fest, werde ich mich auch
darrin (or darum?) zu finden wissen. Gnug ich werde allezeit wie ein
ehrlichen Kerl agiren, und mir vorwißentlich niemanden,
zum Feinde machen; es müßte denn eine infame und boshafte
Seele sein, mit der ich ohne dem keine Freundschaft zu unterhal-
ten gesonnen bin.

Dero Frau Gemahlin, an welche mein unterthänigen Respect
ergehet, haben mir aufgetragen, einige Stücke in der Dres-
dener Porcelain-Fabrique, dergleichen Sie auf dem Schlosse
in Potsdam gesehen, aufzusuchen, und mich nach dem
gnauester Preiß derselben zu erkundigen. Bey meiner
Durchreise durch Dresden, die just den 2te Oster-Tag geschehe,
war die Fabrique verschlossen, und konnte mich also darnach
nicht erkundigen. Vorgestern habe ich endlich Gelegenheit gehabt,
die Fabrique zu sehen, und daselbst habe ich sehr wenige von
den committirten Stücken gefunden. Alles was vorjetzo daran
vorräthig ist, bestehet in folgenden.

1. Eine Confituren-Schälchen in Form einer Rose, etwas
größer, wie diejenigen, so auf dem Potsdamschen Schloß-
stehen, soll aufs gnaüste Kosten 8 rt.
2. Ein dito, just so groß wie die auf dem Schloße 5 rt.
3. Ein dito von eben der Größe in Form einer Orange 4 rt.
4. Ein dito ................................Citrone 5 rt.
5. Ein dito ...............................Weintraube 7 rt.
Ein mehreres est jetzo nicht vorhanden, auch wie mir versichert
worden so wenig in Meißen als Leipzig zu bekommen. Die
Stücke sind nicht etwan von dem sogennanten Ausschuß, son-
dern schon und ohne Fehler. Sollten dieselben anständig seyn,
woll mir dero gnädige Befehle erbitten, und sodann werde
damit prompt aufwarten.
Eu. Hochwohlgeb. empfele mich zu beharrlichen Wohlwollen,
und bitte nichts mehr, als mir dero Gnade und Gewogenheit
zu conserviren. Ich werde dagegen Zeit meines Lebens mit
der vollkommensten und unverbrüchlichsten Treü und Ver-
ehrung verbleiben,

Eu. Hochwohlgeb.

gantz gehorsamster treuer
Diener
Gentze

Lockwitz den 18te April. 1757

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Gestern als den 22. dieses sind Se. Maj. der König von
Ottendorff aufgebrochen, und des Nachmittags fand sich in drey
verschiedenen Colonnen ein sehr zahlreiches Corps-Infanterie eine
Meile von Aussick bey dem dorfe Nollendorff ein, welches die
Nacht über allda campiren müsste, heute fruh um 3 Uhr rückte
dieses Corps weiter fort nach Linay, 2 Meilen von Lobositz
allwo verschiedene Regimenter Cavallerie dazu stießen, welche
sogleich gegen die in dortigen Gebirgen postirte Husaren und Pandu-
ren agiren und sie zerstreuen müssten. Inzwischen weiß man
jetzo zuverlässig, dass sie etwan ¾ Meilen weit von Linay
wieder Posto gefaßet, eine Batterie aufgeworfen, und sich vor-
genommen haben, aus die Passage schwer zu machen. Se. Maj.
aber wollen mit der Armée nicht eher fortrücken, als bis sie die-
se hin daraus aus dem Wege geraümet, welches verhoffentlich
morgen seinen glücklichen Fortgang haben wird. Gestern sind
bereits in einem Scharmützel, so die oesterreichsche Husaren mit
unsern Panduren und Jägern gehabt, 3 Mann von ersteren geblie-
ben und 3 gefangen worden. Dergleichen ist auch heute geschehen,
der Feind hat sich dem Vernehmen nach wieder bey Loboschitz ver-
schantzet, und sich aller der Anhöhen, die in vorigen Schlacht nicht
besetzet gewesen, bemächtiget, also wird dieser Ort dem Vermuthen
nach durch eine doppelte Schlacht berühmt werden. Wovon zu seiner
Zeit ein mehreres.

Der gestrige Tag ist wegen mehr als einer Begebenheit glücklich
gewesen, denn wir haben durch den Adjutant des Printzen von
Bevern die freudige Nachricht erhalten, dass Se. Hochfurstl. Durch.
mit den Oesterreichern eine harte Action bey Sittau gehabt, worin
letztere Totaliter geschlagen worden, und an 2000 Todte auf dem
Platz gelassen, 400 wären sogleich gefangen genommen, der Rest
aber bis auf die Abreise des Adjutanten verfolget worden.
Die ünsrigen sind an 18000 Mann starck gewesen, auf
oesterreichscher Seite aber sollen mehr als 24000 Mann gewe-
sen seyn.

Der Anfang ist erwünscht, der Fortgang der glücklichen ~~[???]~~ Waffe(n)???
des Königes wird vielleicht des baldigen Ende des Krieges und
die Wiederherstellung eines dauerhaften Friedens seyn. Der
Feind hat ein wichtiges Magazin in Aussick, dieses ist schon so
gut als unser.

Der Herr Geheim-Cämmerer Leining, auf dessen Ordre ich ge-
genwärtiges schreibe, lassen Eu. Hochwohlgeb. eine große Empfelung
machen, ich aber bin

Eu. Hochwohlgeb.

gantz gehorsamster treue Diener
Gentze

Linay
den 23. Apr. 1757.

The mystery word looks like this:

The first character looks kind of like an N or V or even M or W. The end of the word looks like an "ff", especially given how he writes "verhoffentlich" in the same letter. That middle character might be an 'n'. But I can't make out a vowel, and I can't put those characters into a word that makes sense.

ETA: The first character looks quite like his W in a subsequent letter.

Son of ETA: If that's an 'e' and not a flourish at the end, that could be "Waffe" or even, just barely, "Waffen". I wouldn't have guess that would go with "Fortgang", but I'll leave the final verdict to our German speakers.

Edited Date: 2024-10-18 08:04 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hochwohlgebohrner Herr,
Gnädiger Herr Geheimer-Cämmerer!

Ich erhalte diesen Augenblick dero gnädige Zuschrift vom
22te dieses, worauf nur was erste gantz kürtzlich melde,
dass heute eine Relation an Madame Leining abgegangen,
die Eu. Hochwohlgeb. wird communiciret werden. Ich kann
vor der Wahrheit derselben repondiren. Vielleicht erleben
wir in ein Paar Tagen etwas wichtigeres. Die Arbeit ist
jetzo so überhäuft, dass man sich kaum zu rathen weiß. Ich
schließe dahero für diesmahl, und versichere, dass ich all-
zeit mit wahrer Devotion seyn werde,

Eu. Hochwohgeb.

gehorsamster treuer Diener
Gentze

Haupt-Quartier
Carwatitz den 29. Apr. 1757.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hochwohlgebohrner Herr,
Gnädiger Herr Geheimer-Cämmerer!

Was am gestrigen Tage für eine gloriose Begebenheit bey
uns vorgefallen, ein solches wird Er. Hochwohlgeb. eine relation,
so heute an Madame Leining gesandt worden, und die dero-
selben wird communiciret werden, mit mehreren berichten. Ich
füge also weiter nichts hinzu, als dass ich Eu. Hochwohlgeb. das
Wohlbefinden Ihro Maj. und des Printzen Heinrichs, so bey
der Schlacht zugegen gewesen, vermelde, und dass wir den Feind
in Prag so eingeschlossen halten, dass nicht eine Klaue durch kom-
men kann. Der Feldmarschall Keith und der Printz von Preußen
halten den weißen Berg mit 25 Bataillons bedeckt, und wir
sind jenseit der Moldau in einer großen Distance um
den Zisca-Berg. Den General Braune haben Sr. König. Maj. zum
Ergeben auffordern lassen. Er hat aber mit vielen Bescheidenheit ge-
antwortet, dass er dazu keine Ordre von seiner Hofe hätte. Die Ordre
mag aber ausfallen wie er will, so ist er allem menschlichen An-
sehen noch mit seinen 100000 Mann gefangen.

Die Kienbergsche affaire ist vor 3 Tagen schon expediret, aber nicht ab-
gegangen, weil wir uns über Hals und Kopf auf den Marsch be-
geben mussten. Alle unsre Bagage und folglich auch Scripturen
ist auf den weißen Berg zurückgeblieben. Sobald uns diesel-
ben wieder zu Gesichte kommen, werde alles ohne Anstand ab-
schicken. Ich habe die Ehre, mit der größten Hochachtung zu seyn,

Eu. Hochwohlgeb,

gantz gehorsamster treuer Diener
Gentze

Haupt-Quartier
Ober Micheln
den 7. Maj. 1757.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hochwohlgebohrner Herr,
Gnädiger Herr Geheimer-Cämmerer!

Eu. Hochwohlgeb. haben unterm 15ten dieses ein Schreiben an den
Herrn Kaselitz ergehen lassen, welches eine Lieferung Preußischen
Butter betrifft, wofür das General Directorium in Berlin
111 rt. 42 g. an die Cämmer in Gumbinnen berichtiget haben will.
Der Herr Kaselitz sich nicht entsinnen konnte, dergleichen Summe
für Rechnung der König.-Küche schuldig zu seyn. So hat er sich
bey mir erkundiget, ob ich mir etwan von dem Zusammenhang
dieser Forderung etwas erinnern könnte, und zum Glück ist
er mit dieser Nachfrage an den rechten Mann gekommen.
Ich weiß gantz zuverlässig, dass Eu. Hochwohlgeb. dem Butter-
Factor Mey in Königsberg vor die letzt gelieferte Butter, worunter
eine halbe Tonne für den H.n Capitaine von Schönholtz, und noch
eine andere halbe Tonne für die Frau Probstin Decker befind.
gewesen, 111 r. 42 g. schuldig waren; diese Post aber ist ungefähr
14 Tage oder 3 Wochen vor meiner Abreise, an den Banquier
Werpler in Berlin, zur Uebermachung an d.n Mey bezahlet
worden. Dero Frau Gemahlin haben davon die Quitung durch
mich bekommen; ich glaube auch, dass sich selbige beym Nachsehen
finden wird. Wenn also dem General-Directorio davon eine
Abschrift zugeschickt wird, so wird sie Eu. Hochwohlgeb. in
Ruhe lassen müssen.

Die Frau Pröbstin wird vielleicht wissen, welchen Tag sie das
letzte mahl von Dresden zurückgekommen. Zwey Tage darauf
sind die 111 r. 42 g. nach Berlin abegangen, weil Sie mir das
Contingent für Ihre empfangene Butter erst nach Ihre zweyten
Zurückkunft von Dresden einhändigte, welches alles, und warum
das Geld nicht eher übersandt, werden können, der Frau Geheimen-
Cämmerern wissend ist.

Dass die Cämmer in Gumbinnen die Förderung von gelieferte Butter macht,
ist gantz natürlich, weil Mey nichts anders als Factor ist, und
die Butter so er debitirt, theils an die Preußische theils an die Lit-
thauische Aemter zu berechnen hat. Das Anschreiben des General-
Directorii ist überhaupt sehr unvernehmlich, weil darinn (or darum) so wenig
das datum, an welchem die Gumbinsche Cämmer den Bericht einge-
sandt hat, marquiret, als der Factor oder das Ammt genennet ist, so
die Butter geliefert, die Cämmer handelt ja damit nicht immediate,
sondern sie hilfet nur im Fall der Noth ihre Pachter zu ihren
ausstehenden Schulden. Kurtz ich begriffe nicht gar wohl, was
das General-Directorium zu dieser Erinnerung voranlaßet
hat. Gnug die Sache ist richtig und abgethan, und wenn es
wie ich nicht zweifele, die letzte Lieferung betrifft; so
will ich allenfalls selbst für richtig geschehene Bezahlung
repondiren.

Ich verhoffe, dass diese Erläuterung wird hinreichend seyn, das
General-Directorium zu bedeuten, und dass ich auch hierdurch
meine Pflicht, so ich Eu. Hochwohlgeb. meinen Entfernung un-
geachtet schuldig bin, beobachtet habe.

Die heutige merckwürdige Begebenheit, wird deroselben
durch Madame Leining communiciret werden.

Se. König. Maj. befinden Sich Gott lob! so wohl als nür
möglich ist. Wir leben hier auch ziemlich vergnügt, obgleich des
schießens Tag und Nacht kein Ende ist. Wenn es ja ein wenig
aufhöret, so ist es als wenn einem etwas fehlet. So
kann man der Gefahr, der man beständig ausgesetzet ist, ge-
wohnt werden; da man doch sonst zu Friedens-Zeiten, wenn
man wo ungefähr ein Gewehr los gehen höret, sogleich erschrickt
und ohne Noth zusammen fähret. Alles dieses Schießen aber
wird wohl nur im Kinder-Spiel gegen das donnern und
Krachen sein, welches wir in wenigen Stünden der Stadt
Prag erregen werden, und welches derselben falls sie hartnäckig
ist, und ihre Vertheidiger nicht gar zur Verzweiflung gebracht
sind, die gäntzliche Einäscherung zu Wege bringen kann.
Das Stückchen ist bereits zugeschnitten.

Ich empfele mich zu beharrlicher Gewogenheit, und habe
dagegen die Ehre, mit dem aufrichtigsten respect zu verharren,

Eu. Hochwohlgeb.

gehorsamster treuer Diener
Gentze

Haupt-Quartier bey Prag
den 24te Maj. 1757.

From:

cahn

Just so you guys know... besides the usual denizens of salon, there are two other 18th C requests!!

Voltaire (!): https://gummy-bean.dreamwidth.org/2586.html
please tell me someone is writing something for this ~~so I don't have to~~ :)

Isabella of Parma/Maria Christina (!!): https://evewithanapple.dreamwidth.org/489181.html
Sadly zero details in letter, but OMG!!

From:

selenak

Mumble mumble mumble mumble mumble.

Re: Yuletide requests

From:

cahn - Date: 2024-10-23 05:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It is hard to believe that Alexander's comment to Hephaestion in India, that he would be nothing without Alexander, could have been directed towards a proven military commander.

Any counterexamples (Fritzian or otherwise, but preferably 18th century) come to mind? This is for my historiography article-in-progress, so any counterexamples need to be extremely well-attested.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

While I was at UCLA, I browsed some books on the shelves. I found Chesterfield's letters, which I already knew contained a hilarious quote about FW and predestination, and immediately decided to see what he said about Peter.

I was delighted to see that he mentions Meinerzhagen dying from the discovery that Peter had escaped to England! You may recall that Peter said in his memoirs that another ambassador had told him that he was accountable for Meinerzhagen's death, and then I found Du Moulin's letter confirming that he did die right after the discovery of Peter's death (though Du Moulin doesn't connect his death with their recent adventures).

Chesterfield:

The Hague, August 22 N.S. 1730

Arrival. The Pensionary is in bed with gout. Mr. Kaith, pursued by Russians sent by the King of Prussia to murder him, has escaped to England. 'Monsieur Meinertzhagen, the King of Prussia's minister, died last night of the fright and agitation this accident has thrown him into.'

This is the first I've heard of any Russians. I think Chesterfield had just gotten back to The Hague and his information was still incorrect.

By September 1, Chesterfield has more accurate information. He wrote to Thomas Robinson, envoy to Vienna:

The late attempt of the Prince Royal of Prussia to make his escape has occasioned great noise here, the public being persuaded that it was on account of his being pressed to turn Papist in order to be married to an archduchess. Colonel Du Moulin, who was come here by the King of Prussia's order, to claim Lieutenant Kait, escaped from Wezell upon this account, and to bring him back dead or alive, and to spare no money for that purpose, not having succeeded in his pursuits (the said lieutenant having found means to get out of this country), left this place three weeks ago to return to Berlin. Monsieur Meinertzhagen, Prussian Envoy here, died of the consternation and agitation this perquisition gave him.

I had read (in MacDonogh?) that the story that Fritz escaped because of the MT marriage plot spread among the public and garnered him much (Protestant) sympathy, but it's interesting to see an actual contemporary account demonstrating it.

"to spare no money for that purpose" That's saying a lot, coming from FW!

Du Moulin can't have left three weeks ago, as Peter escaped only two weeks ago. Looking at the letter in which Du Moulin reports his departure from The Hague for Berlin to FW, he wrote on September 10 that he departed on August 28th, so closer to 3 *days* than 3 weeks before Chesterfield's letter to Robinson.

On September 5th, one of Chesterfield's letters (to yet a different recipient) contains a passage the editor has chosen to summarize as "The King of Prussia's ill-treatment of his son." Come on, editor, I need deets!

Ooh, I can order the letter. Hmm. I might do that. My Peter Keith bio *is* covering the British rumors of what was going on in Prussia, as those would have been what Peter was hearing and worrying and feeling guilty about, accurate or not.

September 15:

My last letters from Berlin inform me that the King of Prussia had beaten the Princess Royal, his daughter, most unmercifully--dragged her about the room by the hair, kicking her in the belly and breast, till her cries alarmed the officer of the guards, who came in. She keeps her bed of the bruises she received. Twenty pence a day is allowed for the maintenance of the Prince Royal in the Castle of Custrin; and the inquiry is carried on with rigour, under the direction of Monsieur Grumkow.

September 19:

Monsieur Masch, the King of Prussia's Envoy, arrived here last Saturday, but has neither been sent to me nor been with me yet; till he has been with me I shall take no notice of him at all. Apropos of His Prussian Majesty, pray let me know what Count Degenfeldt has done, or proposes doing about his audience; I hear he writes a good deal in the style of his predecessor Reichenbach. I am very apprehensive for the Prince Royal, for after the length things have already been carried to against him, Grumkow must be as great a fool as he is a knave if he lets him live.

Chesterfield is presumably thinking that Fritz will take his revenge when he becomes king? We'll never know how Fritz would have treated Grumkow, who died just in time.

I know Reichenbach and Degenfeld well, but Masch is not a name I know.

September 29:

Monsr. Masch, the King of Prussia's Resident here, having visited some other ministers and not having been with me, nor sent, I intend if he should now make me a visit, as I am informed he designs, to refuse it. I am not scrupulously nice in those things, but I think it would be too great a want of regard to the character his Majesty honours me with here, if I should now either return or receive his visit till he makes me the proper reparation; and therefore I hope his Majesty will approve of the resolution I have taken.

October 10:

Monsieur Masch's impertinence to me must certainly have been by orders from his Court, for he has lately made the first visit to several envoys who had not been with him at all, which it is impossible could have proceeded from ignorance or inexperience, and which I think he could do in no other view than to make his distinction of me more remarkable. I have had it intimated to him not to pretend to come to me now unless to make reparation, but I have not yet heard what he proposes doing...

P.S. The Postmaster of Leyden informs me that he has already sent you several copies of Count Degenfeldt's correspondence; the Pensionary will do his utmost to get at those letters, but there are two difficulties: one is that the post offices belong to burgomasters who often will not do it; and the other is, that they have nobody here expert at opening and closing letters, to that the affair would immediately be discovered by their bungling.

The life of an envoy!

October 31, summary by the editor:

The copy of H.M.'s declration in answer to the King of Prussia's extraordinary document is judged by the Dutch to be extremely strong and high-spirit.

I can guess the extraordinary document is the unpunctuated, barely coherent "If there were 100,000 such Kattes I'd make all their heads roll," but I don't think I've ever seen G2's extremely strong and high-spirited response!

December 8:

The Pensionary thinks it absurd to treat at all with the King of Prussia, as whatever he may say, you can only expect 'the worst from a Prince who has shaken off all the ties of faith, justice, or reputation.'

And finally, the famous letter I quoted near the beginning of salon: December 12:

The King of Prussia in the oath he prepared for the Prince to swallow, among many other things, has made him swear that he will never believe in the doctrine of Predestination! A very unnecessary declaration in my mind for any body who has the misfortune of being acquainted with him to make, since he himself is a living proof of free-will, for Providence can never be supposed to have pre-ordained such a creature!

You go, Chesterfield!

Given how much of this is editor summary and not Chesterfield quotes, I'm going to put in a request for price checks with the British archives (even though the price checks themselves are expensive), because this is too good to pass up.

Edited Date: 2024-11-16 09:09 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

The late attempt of the Prince Royal of Prussia to make his escape has occasioned great noise here, the public being persuaded that it was on account of his being pressed to turn Papist in order to be married to an archduchess.

Now what I want to know is: where, at this point, is this story coming from? I mean, since it's untrue, there must have been a specific point of origin. I would imagine gossip in Protestant The Hague, except people at The Hague are familiar enough with the Hohenzollern - who lest we forget still call themselves "Prince of Orange" among their titles, are in laws, and FW specifically did visit the country repeatedly - to be aware that FW is an ill-tempered, forcible recruiting mean tyrant, but he's also hardcore Protestant and loathes the Church of Rome. This is just not a natural explanation. So my current suspicion is that the origin is actually Fritz via Katte, because Katte talked to Lövenörn and Guy-Dickens, and this is how the story got into circulation among the British aristocracy/diplomatic circles.

My last letters from Berlin inform me that the King of Prussia had beaten the Princess Royal, his daughter, most unmercifully--dragged her about the room by the hair, kicking her in the belly and breast, till her cries alarmed the officer of the guards, who came in.

And from there it gets to almost beating her blind (Egmont) or throwing her out of the window (Voltaire). This said, Chesterfield's version is somewhat close to how Wilhelmine herself describes the incident (hair dragging, then beating), minutes "the officers of the guard" where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead. As opposed to the "Fritz fled because he was supposed to convert and marry MT" story, you can see here the true core (FW getting physically violent towards Wilhemine when he returned in August) behind all the embellishments added by rumor.

BTW, it's also sad and telling about the time that bad treatment by FW WITHOUT any pressure to convert is evidently not thought a good enough reason for Fritz to flee by the Brits.

Chesterfield is presumably thinking that Fritz will take his revenge when he becomes king? We'll never know how Fritz would have treated Grumkow, who died just in time.

I read it as Chesterfield implying that Grumbkow the villain would be an utter idiot if he lets Fritz live given he's given Fritz all the reason to hate him, and that he, Chesterfield, is afraid that Grumbkow will engineer Fritz' death one way or the other to prevent future Fritzian revenge.

This reminds me of how I theorized that if Disney ever does a version of the Crown Prince Fritz story, they'll make Grumbkow and Seckendorff into the villains instead of FW so FW and Fritz can have a heartfelt honest reconciliation at the end of the movie. It's of course completley misreading Grumbkow's (and Seckendorff's) agenda and roles. Yes, they're (at this point) anti British and were only too happy to do their part in foiling the British marriage project, not least because Grumbkow gets Austrian money and Seckendorff, representing Team Habsburg, has good reason not to want a Hannover-Prussia-England superstate at some point in the future. But in the best Mafia style, none of this is personal and anti-Fritz, it's business, and in fact Grumbkow right then when Chesterfield suspects him is doing his best to make nice with Fritz, dispensing advice on how to deal with FW, so the currently good Austria-Prussia relations don't end the moment FW breathes his last.

Now, given Grumbkow's advice contains such gems as "distance yourself somewhat from your sister" (causing long term havoc in that relationship) as well as the more useful "show some interest in your other siblings, pointedly your brothers, that will please your father", I'm not saying he was Mr. Misunderstood Goodness, but since we do have all the Seckendorff-Eugene letters from the late 1720s and early 1730s and later the Fritz-Grumbkow letters from the early 1730s, we do actually know Grumbkow and Seckendorff always assumed Fritz would be the next King. There was never any attempt to stop that from happening. There were all the attempts of ensuring he would be a King following the same political allignments as FW was right then, and this contributed to poisoning the atmosphere and heating up the marital warfare between SD and FW, so Fritz (and Wilhelmine) loathing them both regardless comes as no surprise. As to what Fritz would have done if Grumbkow hadn't died at just the right moment -

Seckendorff, from Magdeburg Fortress: Is that even a question?

Self: Yes, it is. Fritz used the opportunity the 7 Years War gave him to have you arrested and imprisoned, but that opportunity wasn't available for Grumbkow in 1740.

Seckendorff: Pfff. He'd have created it. He'd have fired him from the council first, because as opposed to the Old Dessauer, Grumbkow wasn't popular with the army, no one would have mourned for him. And then, once Silesia 1 had started, he'd have drummed up a charge to arrest him as an Austrian spy. I know whereof I speak!

I can guess the extraordinary document is the unpunctuated, barely coherent "If there were 100,000 such Kattes I'd make all their heads roll," but I don't think I've ever seen G2's extremely strong and high-spirited response!

Me neither. Why I do wonder whether it wasn't: "Fuck you, Cousin, if I don't get to kill my son Fritz, I don't see why you should get to kill yours!"

The famous Chesterfield quote is great, but you'd think that FW's obsession around the doctrine of Predestination would have clued the Brits in to the fact that this wasn't a guy taking his religion lightly.

Re: 1730 in British rumors: Chesterfield

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mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2024-11-21 12:08 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: 1730 in British rumors: Chesterfield

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cahn - Date: 2024-11-24 06:12 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

And then I discovered the diary of a Lord Egmont, whom I had not heard of, but he's a great source for the details of the inaccurate gossip that the average person in England was hearing about the Fritzcapade! Chesterfield was an envoy on the continent, with access to better-than-averages sources; Lord Egmont was...extremely not, as you'll see.

September 16:

I was informed of the true reason why the Prince of Prussia fled from his father, namely, he would oblige him to turn Papist to marry the Archduchess; the Prince refusing, the King collared him, whereupon the other thought best to fly for it, but was overtaken at Wesel, and is now confined in a castle situated very unwholesomely for air; 'tis well if the brute his father dont [sic] make him away, but he may do it as effectually, though not so suddenly, by leaving him in that confinement. He allows him sixpence a day for his maintenance. Two Colonels assisted him in his escape, one of whom had the good fortune to save himself in England, where he keeps incognito. The other was taken, and is now in chains, carrying a wheelbarrow in the King's works. The King, jealous that the Princess of Prussia knew of her brother's escape, beat her eyes almost out of her head. The poor Queen is inconsolable, and our Court shed tears when this account came. I have all this from good and undoubted hands.

A wheelbarrow! That's new! And we thought Dickens and Løvenørn had inaccurate news in Berlin. (Løvenørn had Katte in chains, remember, but not in a wheelbarrow.)

FW beating Fritz for not wanting to turn Catholic!

Also, remember that Nicolai told us that in his day, the dominant story was that Fritz was arrested in Wesel. I see that story started early. I also think (?) it's the first time we've actually seen that version, instead of having to take Nicolai's word for it.

September 30:

This morning Baron Bothmar told me that the private letters of his uncle, Count Bothmar, bring an account that that monster, the King of Prussia, had ordered a court-martial of officers to sit upon his son and try him as a deserter, he having the command of a regiment; that the officers refusing to sit on this occasion, the King had divested them of their orders and honours, and sent them in chains to work at the fortifications. That the Prince had been urged to confess who were privy to his flight, but he refuses to tell, because that would be certain death to them. His answer is the King is master of his person, and may do with him as he pleases; but tell he will not, anything to prejudice others. A new Council of War is summoned, at which the Prince of Anhalt is to be President: a man of violent and brutish character. In the meantime it is said the Prince is ill.

I notice that the British are not very interested in this "King in Prussia"/"King of Prussia" distinction. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mainly the Austrians who cared (and possibly rival German princes, like the Saxons).

Oh, and

cahn, the Prince of Anhalt is the Old Dessauer, FW's only friend.

October 9:

Count Bothmar...told me several entertaining things this day, and run great encomiums on the late Princess Sophia, who, he said, was a lady of great learning and wit, and writ on certain occasions equal to Seneca. He said Frederick William, Elector of Brandenburg, grandfather to the present King of Prussia, was a courageous Prince, and understood war, but was extremely passionate and haughty; so that the most gross flattery was acceptable to him.

His son, the late King of Prussia, was equally vain, but good natured. He loved women, but was not capable of so much villainy as his brutish son, the present King, suspected him, namely of designing to corrupt his wife the present Queen.

He told me the present King had lately ordered a young woman, daughter to a clergyman, to be stripped to her shift, whipped, and afterwards banished, only for having played on a harpsichord to the Prince his son in a concert.

FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before,

selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?

November 16, the best of all. At least Egmont has the sense to suspend belief!

There came news this day from London of a current report there, that the King of Prussia had caused his son to be beheaded, and obliged his Queen and daughter to see the execution. I suspend my belief till I hear further, though what cannot such a brute be guilty of? Brigadier Dormer told me that when this King served the campaign in Flanders (he was then only Prince), General Grumeau, now his first Minister, commanded a regiment of Prussians. That its coming to the Prussians' turn to mount the trenches, there were several regiments of them; the Duke of Marlborough complimented the Prince with desiring him to name which regiment of his nation should go. The Prince answered Grumeau's. The Duke replied that Grumeau was then sick in bed of a fever, and it would grieve him not to be on duty with his regiment, wherefore he entreated him to name some other, and the rather that it was not Grumeau's turn. But the Prince had the hardness, not only to persist, but to go to that General's tent to acquaint him that he must rise and enter the trenches that day. Grumeau, ill as he was, got up, and soon after the Brigadier saw him at his post, as pale as his cravat, and in a high fever. The news is more certain, that by the King's command an officer has been beheaded under the Prince's prison window, who, looking out to bid the young gentleman a last adieu, the officer said to him: "Sir, I die with pleasure if it contributes to your safety."

This is *definitely* going in the bio. Poor Peter! Even if Caroline immediately got word to him that it wasn't true, I'm sure he still worried about it.

cahn, the Flanders campaign in question would be the battle of Malplaquet, the extremely bloody one that turned FW off of bloody battles for the rest of his life.

Lol at Grumbkow aka Grumeau, having to get up and take up his post. Se non è vero, è molto ben trovato.

ETA: Oh, I forgot to mention that while all this is happening, Egmont is meeting with Oglethorpe to bring about the founding of Georgia! Wikipedia says:

While working on the Gaols Committee, Oglethorpe met and became close to John Perceval (who later became the first Earl of Egmont). After leaving the committee, Oglethorpe considered sending around 100 unemployed people from London to America. In 1730, he shared a plan to establish a new American colony with Perceval. The colony would be a place to send "the unemployed and the unemployable", and he anticipated broad societal support.

From Egmont's diary:

July 25: Mr. Oglethorp came to dine with me, and discourse the charter we design to apply for.

July 30: Went to town to the Society of Associates for Mr. Dalone's Legacy to convert blacks in America, and settle a colony in America. There were present Mr. Oglethorp, myself, Mr. Anderson, second accountant to the South Sea Company in that article that relates to their trade, Mr. Hucks, junior, Captain Coram, the Reverend Mr. Smith, and the Reverend Mr. Hales. We agreed on a petition to the King and Council for obtaining a grant of lands on the south-west of Carolina for settling poor persons of London, and having ordered it to be engrossed fair, we signed it, all who were present, and the other Associates were to be spoke also to sign it before delivered. A paper drawn up for Captain Coram to carry to Tunbridge in order to collect subscriptions to our scheme, conditional that a grant be made us of lands desired, was showed me, and my leave desired that I might be mentioned in it, because they thought it might facilitate subscriptions, and I readily gave it, but advised that some others might likewise be mentioned in it. I gave them ten guineas, which Colonel Schutz presented the Society out of the Prince's charity money to forward the design. Mr. Hastings sent five pound, and an unknown person by Mr. Oglethorp's hands twenty pound.

I thought that was neat, since we were recently emailing about Oglethorpe.

Also, "and the other Associates were to be spoke also to sign it before delivered," yes, that syntax is [sic]. Egmont apparently finds that sentence grammatical (or the editor made a mistake).

Edited Date: 2024-11-16 09:25 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Good lord, this is hysterical. And a good example of fake news in the 18th century. What's historically fascinating is of course how completely accepted this "poor Fritz was to be forced to become Catholic and marry MT, and this is why he fled!" story gets by the Brits (I say the Brits, because I really don't think that was the tale in France, and we know it wasn't in Austria), up to and including the idea that FW, one of THE most hardcore Protestant monarchs of Europe, would beat his son for refusing to become Catholic. (Rather than the opposite.) I mean, it shows of couse who completely ignorant the British aristocracy (and presumably also the middle classes) were of anythng going on in Prussia, but also how deeply scarred everyone still was by future August III of Saxony converting. And why Fritz could sell poor Katte on this story (minus the part of FW beating him for this reason - that's where Katte, being somewhwat more familiar with NO POPERY FW, would have said, hang on...).

(As we've said, given FW completly believed it when Clement spun the tale of the dastardly Saxons and Austrians killing or kidnapping him, FW, in order to make Fritz King after he converted to Catholicism, and raised his kids to think the Austrians would love nothing better than getting upstanding Prostant princes in their hands to in order to convert them and would pay any price for this, it must have confused even Fritz himself when he tried the "hey, how about I marry an Archduchess" post 1730 and just got a HELL NO! from Grumbkow, Seckendorff and Eugene.)

All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.

FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before, [personal profile] selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?

No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters. (Remember, young SD also discussed some of her marriage trouble with Grandma Sophie of Hannover.) So that's definitely news/plain old invention. Not that I don't buy irrationally jealous FW, and of course F1 was the money spending glamour providing type of baroque prince whom SD presumably would have liked to have been married to... but he was also small, fragile and a much ridiculed by his contemporaries "hunchback", while young FW was in the best shape he'd ever be in his life. And F1 was defnitely not the type of monarch hitting it off with the ladies in general by using his power as a monarch to compensate for the lack of physical attractions; the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.

AAAAAnd that's still leaving out F1 trying to get a spare to his heir on wife No.3 during FW's early marriage with SD, about which both FW and SD were miffed, and FW's devotion to the patriarchy and belief a father is always right. But anyway, my main argument for this story being a post facto invention is that if young FW, not a self restrained fellow, would have suspected his Dad of getting it on with his wife, he a) would have written and shouted to SD about it, and b) the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.

Neat about Oglethorp, thank you.

Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont

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mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2024-11-20 11:39 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont

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mildred_of_midgard

selenak: Fair statement or not quite? Or "recovered and even exceeded"? You know rather more about F1's time than I do, and probably more about the Academy in Fritz's time.

At any rate, during Frederick's reign, the Academy of Sciences recovered the prestige that it had enjoyed in Leibniz's day.

From:

selenak

I would say "recovered and even exceeded" is fair, because as far as I recall, in F1's day, there was no one else of Leibniz' calibre or international renown at the academy, whereas Fritz had a couple of international superstars (Maupertuis and Euler at least qualify, though Fritz didn't appreciate Euler enough, and of course Algarotti) who had Europe-wide name recognition, plus in whichever sense he had Voltaire.

In later years, this renown lost some of its lustre (see also: Euler not being properly appreciated, Euler accepting Catherine's offer; and then of course Fritz not wanting Moses Mendelssohn as an Academy Member despite the Marquis D'Argens telling him he was missing out on one of the most amazing minds of the day, boo, hiss), and let's not even start with the Fritzian problem of not recognizing German-writing folk in general if they didn't also publish in French. But that was diminishing the Academy's prestige during his last two decades. In his first two decades, he certainly had many of the creme de la creme and the Academy had a great international reputation.

Christian Wolff: Not among those of us who remained in Leipzig it didn't!

Re: Academy of Sciences

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mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2024-11-20 03:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Having for a mysterious reason been brushing up my Voltaire knowledge, I want to share witih you this bit from when he's in England and debatting Milton's Paradise Lost with the Brits. Voltaire admires parts of this poem, but thinks the episode with Sin and Death sucks. For some reason one of the things he objects to is the Satan/Sin incest producing Death - never mind Madame Denis in the future), Voltaire's first breakout literary work was Oedipe - but mainly it's Death and Sin outstaying their welcome as allegories and being just gross. As his his wont, he's being sarcastic and making fun while voicing his objections. This calls for British retalation defending the honor of England's second most respected poet (Shakespeare being the first) of all time (at least in this era). Whereupon either Young or Lord Hervey (depending on the source) "matched in mind Voltaire's slight, emaciated figure with the meagre shadow of Milton's Death" and speaks this impromptu verse:

You are so witty, profligate and thin,
At once we think thee Milton, Death and Sin.

Alas nobody describes Voltaire's reaction.

From:

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2024-12-07 04:25 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Good news re the Peter Keith bio: Gundling is going IN! After Selena prompted me to write more about the history of the Academy of Sciences and its fluctuations in prestige, I realized that FW tormenting the president of the academy would 1) reinforce how awful FW is, 2) show how much FW hated academics (even if he took Gundling seriously on practical matters), 3) be an excellent parallel to Fritz and show why he and Peter were having to hide a secret library and read at night, 4) add to the word-count in a relevant and interesting way, 5) justice for Gundling!! \o/

I have Sabrow's book on order, but alas, it won't arrive from Germany for another month or so. So I'm here to ask you historiographical questions,

selenak.

1. Do you remember where I can find Fritz trash-talking Gundling? A letter to Wilhelmine?

2. Do you have a sense of when the wine barrel denial began and what the cultural shifts that led to it were? I feel like you've talked about this before, but I'm not finding it.

3. Anything you would correct or add to this summary of the historiographical tradition?

Contemporaries (Stratemann, Morgenstern) didn't feel any need to deny the wine barrel story. Fritz trash-talked Gundling (details to come when I can find the source), and Maupertuis referred to him as "ridiculous". Nineteenth-century historians (post-1848?) no longer felt they could defend this monarchical abuse of a commoner, so they started denying the worst incidents happened (Schneider). Wolff's publication of the Stratemann reports required him to reluctantly accept that Stratemann was an impeccable witness, but he and other historians continued to defend FW. For example, Göse attributed Gundling's treatment to his "odd personality" and the culture of his time, not to FW's agency. Many historians (Blanning, MacDonogh--any good 20th century German authors?) never acknowledged Gundling as a scholar, and instead simply treated him as a fool who was put in charge of the academy, at a time when it was effectively in abeyance as an institution of learning. More recent scholars have sought to redeem Gundling's reputation as a mistreated scholar (Sabrow, Clark), or as someone who embodied the roles of both scholar and fool (in the older, technical sense) (Outram).

Obviously I'll flesh it out, but that's the outline of the content I'd like fact-checked (and supplemented if possible).

Edited Date: 2024-11-23 04:28 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

mildred_of_midgard

Having re-transcribed all the letters to Fredersdorf with the exception of Glasow's (which I'm not including) and Anderson's (which I haven't quite finished), I'm moving on to asking questions about German. If I can get to reasonable confidence on almost all the readings, the cruxes can go to my medieval German professor from university days. And if *he* can't figure something out, then it's legit to put "unreadable" in a publication.

1. und zweifle nicht dieselben werden Theil an diesen meinen Glück nehmen

My eyes see

Glück-
nehmen

but my brain wants it to be "Glück nehmen." in other words, "Theil...nehmen", not "Theil...Glücknehmen." But if it's "Glück nehmen", then I don't know what to do with that squiggle that looks exactly like a line-end hyphen.

What do our Germans think?

2. Is "kleinsten" in auf den kleinsten Umstand correct?

Edited Date: 2024-11-23 07:43 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Grammatically, it's "(An)T(h)eil an meinem Glück nehmen" all the way, and "Glücknehmen" as one word makes no sense to me, even considering old fashioned German. Have you considered an ink blot? Or just an exhausted slip of the pen?

Kleinsten: yes.

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 1, Teuton-picking

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mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2024-12-07 04:14 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I'm behind on everything, but I used my time off well! You may or may not recall that both Peter and Fredersdorf (well, Pfeiffer, really, but it's part of the justice for Fredersdorf essay) come with thousands of pages of archival material, of which there is still much I haven't read.

Well, I still haven't read all of it, but I read quite a bit more in the last two weeks, after practicing my handwriting, and lo and behold! I have the answer to one major question, confirmed some things I strongly suspected, and made new discoveries.

Young Friedrich's death
The thing that was driving me crazy: Peter's younger son, Friedrich, died at age 19, and we didn't know why! I spent years thinking, "Surely in all this correspondence, someone talked about what he died of!"

Well, not one but two letters do!

Most of the correspondence is from Uncle Hertzberg, the prominent foreign minister who married one of Oriane's sisters. Hertzberg wrote, on November 10, 1764:

Madame de Keith has just this night lost her younger son, who had become emaciated, because of an abscess that he [had developed] in his lungs. It's too bad, he was a young man with a lot of esprit, an exemplary conduct, and a very considerate figure. I believe that if, on this occasion, you wanted to write something to Madame de Keith, she would receive it with pleasure.

So now we know that he died of an illness and not from, say, a riding accident.

Even more touchingly, we have his mother's reaction, also November 10, 1764:

My very honored brother,

I believe it is my duty to inform you that it has pleased the All-Powerful Sovereign, Arbiter of our Destinies, to call to him on this night, by a sweet and Christian death, the younger of my sons, aged 19 and 3 months, after a long and painful illness of the chest. I lose in him a child whom I cherished tenderly, and who deserved to be, that his precocious mind and his virtuous feelings, made me regard him as a sure and solid friend.

I'm not fluent in French, but the second half of that sentence does strike me as ungrammatical in French, like she lost track of the syntax partway through, because she was in such distress. But I could be wrong.

Anyway, now I have a cause of death for all 4 members of the Keith family: 2 lung diseases (Oriane and Friedrich) and 2 strokes (Peter and Karl)!

Also, Peter, I'm sorry you died at age 45, but at least you didn't have to watch your teenage son slowly waste away. :(

Karl's burial
In related news, I also now know for sure why Karl was buried in the Parochialkirche with his mother and not the Nikolaikirche with his father and brother. You may recall that he asked to be buried in the Nikolaikirche with his father, brother, and members of his mother's family, and there was a postscript from his executor that I couldn't quite decipher but seemed to be saying that he was mistaken, and that he would be buried in the Parochialkirche.

Well, I can read it with more confidence now, and it does say that: "Herr Baron von Keith was mistaken about the church, his relatives are buried in the Parochialkirche, and therefore he is likewise buried there."

He was not mistaken! He correctly listed everyone who was buried there, and omitted the one person who wasn't--his mother! She was only in the Parochialkirche because that's where great governesses to the queen go; the family vault was in the Nikolaikirche. But as I said before, it worked out, because the Nikolaikirche got destroyed in the war and all the remains obliterated, while Karl's and Oriane's remains are still hanging out in the Parochialkirche in vault 5, perfectly intact.

Karl's duel
Then the most exciting thing I found: remember when Karl got posted as envoy to Turin from 1774-1778? Guess why he was recalled?

HE GOT INTO A DUEL.

I found this in the personal correspondence from Uncle Hertzberg, and then I thought, "This HAS to be in Fritz's political correspondence on Trier," and sure enough, when I started browsing the letters that came a few weeks after the incident, it was there!

Hertzberg and Finckenstein wrote to Fritz:

The Marquis de Rossignan has received a courier from his court, who has come to bring us complaints against Mr. Keith, who, having quarreled with a Piedmontese officer, the Chevalier Fresia, had fought a duel with him at the house of an officer of the royal house; that the king of Sardinia had arrested the Chevalier Fresia; but that, Mr. Keith having failed him so badly, he could only request that he not appear at court until Your Majesty had been informed of this affair, and that this prince requests that Your Majesty recall him.

Fritz replied:

It's necessary to recall him. These are the follies and the crazy heads that all your young people.

(Again, not sure the grammar is correct there, but the meaning is clear.)

I can't believe this tidbit was in the published political correspondence the whole time! Of course: 46 volumes, only the first 20 searchable, in French and German, mostly boring (or at least lacking enough context to make them interesting).

Then Hertzberg had to write to his brother-in-law:

The family has just [caused] another very strong distress for Madame de Keith. Her son, who, through the fault of being too sensitive and fiery, on January 24 [1778] quarreled with a Piedmontese officer at Turin, fought with him, lightly wounded him, [drew attention to himself there?] that the king forbade him the court, and sent a courier to his minister to demand the recall of Mr. Keith. I have represented the matter to the king in a report from the Ministry in such a fashion that he had to recall him, but that he has not given evidence of greater displeasure than the fault that our young people have of follies and crazy heads. However that may be, his [Keith's] good fortune is lost forever, or at least for a long time, and it will be a great piece of good luck if I can save him the position that he previously had, which was worth 2000 ecus. Fortunately, this happened at a time when all the King's attention is on the famous affair of the Bavarian Succession.

cahn, 1778 is when Vienna Joe decides to try to claim Bavaria for the Habsburgs and occupy it, and Fritz goes to war against him, a war that ends up not having much action, and eventually Catherine and MT work out a peace.

So I always strongly suspected that Hertzberg was the reason Karl Keith got the position he did, because that's how nepotism worked in those days, but I couldn't prove it. However, I've now found that Hertzberg's correspondence is *full* of him pulling strings for Karl: he got him his first job in the civil service, then tried to get him sent to Vienna (but Fritz thought he was too inexperienced), then got him this position at Turin, and now is doing damage control.

After reading all of this, I remembered that I had Karl's diplomatic correspondence from Turin. which I had ordered in 2023 but not yet read. I looked it up, and sure enough, April 1778, there's a letter from him to Fritz. It's profoundly apologetic, but it emphasizes that honor required him to do what he did, even though it was incompatible with his position as envoy. It's kind of an apology in the older, "defense" sense of the word, more than the modern "I take it back" sense. And he hopes that he hasn't lost all of Fritz's trust and is still worthy of being employed.

He ALSO said that he did a complete write-up of the affair in a report he made to the Ministry, but I can't find it! I bet it's in the archives, though. I swear if I can fix my back pain, I'm going to Europe; there are so many archives (Prussia, Brandenburg, Dresden, London, Copenhagen, Paris) where it would be more cost-effective to browse the material for free than to start guessing at what (often large) sets of documents might contain what I'm looking for and just ordering scan after scan. But right now, I physically can't sit and handle papers for long enough to make it worth it.

Karl's personality
What makes this episode even funnier is that when Karl went off to Turin in the first place, one of his Knyphausen uncles wrote, "He is a very 'joli sujet'* with all the essential traits, full of application and honesty, but a little slow and phlegmatic, like his father."

* Joli sujet: I found a dictionary defining this as "said of a young man who distinguishes himself and makes himself esteemed by his good conduct, by his merit."

When I read "slow and phlegmatic, like his father," I thought immediately of 1) Formey saying that Peter was a bit reserved, unless he knew you well enough to open up to you, and I concluded that this Knyphausen brother-in-law didn't know Peter that well, and 2) that letter that Peter wrote to Fritz, demanding to be in the army, which everyone thought was "too strong" and which he lived to regret.

I'm getting the impression that father and son were both quiet until they got worked up about something, and then it was up with the bonnets of Bonnie Dundee. :D

I think I also found something saying that Karl was frugal, which Peter also was, but I need to properly decipher the word that I think means "frugal," because I'm just going by context right now.

Karl's travels
Oh, in lesser news, I also discovered that Karl got to make a trip to Paris in the early 1770s, with Fritz's permission. He then also got permission to make the grand tour in Italy when he was assigned there. I assume Karl told Fritz that it would help him as a diplomat to get up to speed on Italian affairs, but I assume Karl was also there for the art, given his lifelong interests in art.

Conclusion: Handwriting decipherment is the BEST!

I made notes on letters to follow up with, as they require more careful decipherment, and I'll let you know if anything interesting comes up. But that's what I have for now. I'm going to try to spend some time this week actually writing, both Peter and Fredersdorf.

Edited Date: 2024-12-30 05:18 pm (UTC)

mildred_of_midgard

Today in "Mildred researches Peter":

Remember when Lehndorff said Peter had English manners, but his natural courtesy meant that he didn't cause offense? And I asked what "English manners" meant, and Selena pointed out another entry in which Lehndorff wrote about an English visitor that he was "somewhat thoughtless and betraying the manner of a true Englishman, which doesn't always correspond to the studied politenesses that 'we' [Germans] place so much stock in." And the example Lehndorff gave was that he had referred to the Danish princes as "nice boys."

And Formey, in his eulogy of Peter, wrote that "There was an air of frankness and cordiality in his manner, much preferable to all the brilliant imposture of vain politeness."

I went looking for an actual source on what "English manners" meant, found this pretty interesting book, and discovered a Frenchman in 1862 saying that his host had greeted him with "that English frankness and cordiality which I prefer to all the ceremonies of politeness."

I conclude that Formey was using a cliche that would have coded as English to his readers. I checked the original French in both cases, btw, and it is the same word choice:

Il régnait un air de franchise de cordialité dans ses manières, fort préférable à tout le brillant imposteur d'une vaine politesse.

and

Il me tendit en effet la main avec cette franchise et cette cordialité anglaises que je préfère à toutes les cérémonies de la politesse.

This is going in the biography!

I now kind of wonder what the original of "einstudierten" in Lehndorff's "einstudierten Höflichkeiten" was, assuming "Höflichkeiten" is a translation of "politesse."

Anyway, I'm always interested when something I thought was the author's own choice of words turns up somewhere else, like that time I found the language of the Declaration of Arbroath (Scotland, 1320) echoed Otto von Northeim's speech (Germany, 1073) too closely to be a coincidence.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Next question for our Germans:

20 jahr häte er mihr vohrs liebe brodt gedinet

(Fritzian spelling, if you couldn't tell. *g*)

I gather the individual is claiming to have worked for Fritz for 20 years and is complaining about the conditions. Is he saying he worked for for just room and board but no salary? Or for a pittance, just enough to pay for bread? Or that bread is expensive? Or what is he saying here?

From:

selenak

I could tell. :)

As for the meaning: Or for a pittance, just enough to pay for bread? is the right translation.

"Vohrs liebe brodt" - fürs liebe Brot in better spelled German.

He's evidently quoting someone and thus talking in the Konjunktiv, so

(he says) he'd served me for twenty years for barely enough salary to fill his belly" would be a looser, less literal but getting at the meaning translation.

Re: vohrs liebe brodt

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2025-01-03 06:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

On special request, and before Darth Real Life catches up with me again, I read this biography.
Overall impressions: definitely far more informative than the previous August(us) biography we've come across. The subtitle indicates where Blanning is going with this. Another subtitle could have been "His times and life", since there is certainly a lot about contemporaries not August(us) - Charles of Sweden and Peter the Great, most prominently - but since they vehemently influence his life, justifiably so. Still, it is noticeable that the biography starts with our hedonistic hero already an adult and later gives only the briefest of summaries of his childhood and youth. There is more than enough about the Great Northern War to satisfy Mildred, but also, justifying the other part of the title, about Saxony in general and Leipzig and Dresden in particular as cultural hotspots and amazing achievements in that sense under Augustus. In terms of August's private life, Blanning announces he has no intention to cover every mistress and provides just details on the most important ones, Aurora von Königsmarck (his fave), Fatima (the Turkish one) and of course Countess Cosel (he's a bit baffled about the severity of her fate and doesn't think the marriage promise alone explains it). Ditto for the kids, which, alas, means nothing about the Countess Orzelska. (Possibly having deflowered Fritz doesn't compete with having been France's military hero and ancestor of George Sand.)

There are some cross connections I made while reading which aren't pointed out. Young (Frederick) Augustus starts out as a second son, with Big Brother Johann Georg the Prince Elector of Saxony. Johann Georg, not a sympathetic fellow in general, with August's morals (that is, lack of same) but without his style, has a neglected wife but ignores her in favour of an adored teenage mistress. To whom Johann Georg is so devoted that when she has smallpox, of which she eventually dies, he nurses her with his own hands and promptly catches smallpox as well, dying, which makes young Frederick Augustus the next Duke and Elector of Saxony. This sounded familiar, because the neglected wife, about which Blanning says she's from a junior Franconian branch of the Hohenzollern family, is in fact the mother of Caroline of Ansbach, future Queen Caroline of England. It was her second marriage, and the combination of her grief for her first husband and the depressing state of being Johann Georg's wife ensured she completely withdrew into herself and did nothing about Caroline's education which didn't start until young Caroline ended up with the relations in Berlin and Potsdam and got a crash course by Sophie Charlotte.

Anyway, Blanning doesn't say anything abour this , but that's where I knew the story from. What he does tell is young August showing he has one thing in common with young Henry VIII, who when taking over from Dad made a cheap bid for popularity by scapegoating an unpopular leftover from the previous regime. In Augustus' case, this was the mother of his brother's adored mistress. She via her daughter had squeezed as much money out of Saxony as she could, which isn't nice but not illegal. So Augustus put her on trial as a witch, I kid you not. He let it go as far as torture via thumbscrews, and then her sentence was commuted, i.e. she was not executed, but had to wear gloves for the rest of her life, and of course she'd lost her money. This happened to great cheer of the population but illustrates a great ruthlessness on the part of future August the Strong, so unlike Blanning, I'm not baffled by the cruelty of his treatment of Contantia von Cosel, just because otherwise he was nice to his exes.

Anyway, it's the era of the Turkish Wars between the HRE and the Osmanic Empire, complete with siege of Vienna, where in what turns out to be the last glorious event in Polish history for a good while you have the legendary rescue of Vienna by the Polish King Jan Sobieski and his cavalry. August, who was Duke of Saxony and new head of one of the oldest German noble families is owed a big position in the army, is given command of a part of the army some years post Siege of Vienna but really isn't much good at it, but luckily for Emperor Leopold young Eugene of Savoy has shown up and proven his worth in Italy, so Leopold is really happy when he can relieve Augustus of command and give it Eugene. He can do that because the Polish throne has become available, - renember,

cahn, Poland, or rather, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwewalth, to give it the official title, elects its King - and Augustus thinks this is a great opportunity, because who wouldn't want to be King? (His campaign links Augustus with Otto III, whom listeners to "History of the Germans" might recall supposedly crowned Boleslaw the Brave of Poland.)

He's in luck in that the biological descendants of the last King, who do exist, can't manage to unite enough of the Polish nobility behind them, and the candidate sponsored by France, a Prince of the Blood, no less, Conti, cousin to Louis XIV, isn't much liked, either. It's not that Augustus can outspend Louis, it's that the Polish magnates would rather take his bribes than those of Louis. France has been invested in whoever is King of Poland because of their rivalry with Team Habsburg, and that served them well as long as memories of the Thirty Years War were still fresh, but at this point, it's Louis who looks like the biggest European menace, what with his endless wars. And then there's the fact the Pope is 100% pro Augustus, which is still important in Poland. Why is the Pope so pro August? Because Augustus converts, and this is a serious PR coup of historic proportions because Saxony is the home of the Reformation, House Wettin is the first German noble house to turn Lutheran, Augustus' ancestor Frederick the Wise was Luther's great Protector without whom Brother Martin might not have survived to start anything major, and so for a Duke of Saxony to become Catholic is really something major. (And it shifts the balance among the Princes Elector from majorly Protestant to majorly Catholic.) Not to mention that sure, Louis XIV (and of course the Prince Conti) is a Catholic, but Louis is really high handed and thinks he can boss the Pope around. So, the Pope is for August, the Emperor is for August, and August gets elected and crowned. Becoming Catholic doesn't bother him much. As has been observed even before all of this, he's never been a particularly ardent Lutheran. He might even be, gasp, a free thinker. While observing the outward pieties, he's never going to become a serious Catholic, either, notoriously putting a rosary the Pope has send him in his last year of life around his dog's neck.

Now, for a long time, the decline of Poland has been blamed by Polish historians on the 60 plus years rule by two Germans in a row, seeing this as a prelude to the catastrophes to follow, i.e. the partitioning. This is no longer the case, but that doesn't mean Augustus is entirely innocent, either. The way Blanning presents it, Poland was already in decline, not least because of its political system (the famous Polish liberty being liberty for the ca. 8 percent of the population who were Catholic nobles). As to what those 8 percent expected of their King: He must not have power over the army, as he might use it against the nation; he must not control the treasury, as access to funds would enable him, not only to corrupt the nation's representatives, but also to raise troops and pursue autonomous policies; he especially must not have the right to impose taxes, as this would enable him to oppress his citizens; he must not have any influence over foreign policy, as he might drag the country into war or make unfavourable alliances; the system of justice must remain outside his realm of influence; under no circumstances should he have any influence over legislation, despite the fact he was the only individual with legistlative initiative.

In other words: they want a constitutional monarch - but for a country which, unlike England, DOESN'T have a strong parliament to do the actual governing instead. They have the Sejim where any noble can block another noble. To make anything out of Poland under these conditions, Blanning thinks, August would have had to be a mixture of Henry VII (of England) (taming the magnates), Henry VIII (getting the Church of the country under his personal control) and Elizabeth I (inspiring the nation), but alas, "he was more Stuart than Tudor". Also not Polish, one might add. Banning thinks ideally Augustus should have gotten acquainted with his new realm and won his new subjects' respect in peace time. But what does he do? Co-starts the Great Northern War.

Now, part of the problem is the spirit of the age. Every prince wants to be Louis XIV. (This includes those at war with Louis XIV.) (Young Augustus did visit Versailles, which is why we have some neat Liselotte quotes about him.) Part of being Louis XIV is getting into building and sponsoring your country's culture, and this part Augustus will manage better than almost any other prince not Louis XIV, but then there's also the expectation of being a mighty warrior King. And this, Augustus is just not good at. It's not that he's not capable of personal bravery (the few times he's in command in person, he's not a master strategist but he's doing his own fighting and risks his life repeatedly), but there's a reason why Leopold was relieved to get rid of him, and it's not just he could trade him in for one of the best military commanders of the age. And not only is August not a good battlefield commander, he's also given to fatal misjudgements. One of this is shared by the far more capable Peter I. of Russia, of course, to wit: that new teenage King of Sweden is a lightweight. Let's take a bite out of Sweden!

Big mistake. Especially since Charles is vengeful, feels personally betrayed by Augustus (who promised not to go to war against him), and also is a devout Protestant to whom August becoming Catholic is personally offensive as well. Augustus' good luck among his bad luck is that Charles is a military genius, but a lousy strategist and just terrible at politics, which leads Charles into making his own fatal mistakes. Chief among those: after defeating Denmark, Saxony-Poland and Russia in a row on the battlefield, not going after the most dangerous guy (i.e. Peter) but going after Augustus instead. Because Peter after being beaten flees the battlefield, Charles thinks he's a coward and can be defeated at any time. And he really wants to punish Augustus. So he wastes the next SIX YEARS (I had forgotten or wasn't aware it took that long) with campaigns in Poland instead of Russia, giving Peter the chance to transform the Russian army and push his naval program forward. Why, despite Charles being a military genius and August being mediocre, does it take so long? Because Poland is big, and Charles never manages to win the population, or the nobles. He's not helping himself by installing Stanislas Lescynski as puppet king, because even mediocre August manages to reconquer Warsaw and kick Stanislas out of same the moment Charles' back is turned, illustrating once and for all Stanislas is entirely dependent on Swedish support. Swedish soldiers were the ones crying "long live King Stanislas" when they forced through his election, which reminded all the nobles they might not be August fans, but omg this is oppression of Polish liberty. Charles finally has enough and instead of wasting more time in the Polish quagmire invades Saxony instead, which is far, far smaller. Unlike in Poland, here Charles being a devout Lutheran is a plus (there are enough Saxons still feeling betrayed by that Catholic conversion). So Charles quickly conquers Saxony and makes it as humiliating for Augustus as possible, forcing him to abdicate as King of Poland, and to agree to Saxony financing the Swedish army staying there for the winter.

But because Charles is such a bad politician and strategist, he's off to Russia next year. Where Peter had six years to prepare, and where Charles finds out the hard way why you just don't invade Russia, especially once the winter arrives. Augustus in Saxony is cheered up to no end by the news that keep coming from Russia. Stanislas Lescynski isn't, and it's not long before he's off to first Pommerania and then France, and Augustus is back to being King of Poland. This doesn't mean he's a better Politician himself. Because Augustus makes no secret of the fact he really wants to keep Poland in the family, and becoming a hereditary monarchy wasn't what the nobles signed up, either. And for every poltical goal Augustus achieves - like securing a Habsburg Archduchess for his son, with the clear aim of giving his son a shot at becoming HRE, and yeah, talking said son into converting to the Catholic faith as well, which is a prerequisite both for becoming King of Poland and for marrying a Habsburg Archduchess - there is a drawback: he pisses off the Polish magnates who start to eye the exiled Stanislas as maybe the better option than another Saxon, and as we all know, it's MT, err, Franz Stephan who will end up as HRE, not future August III.

But all this political failure and/or mediocrity is just one side of the coin. Blanning repeatedly calls Augustus an artist, despite, as he said, the man never having written a book, or composed a piece of music, or painted a painting. Why? Because as bad as his military and political instincts were, he had an unfailing one for art, for culture, for presentation and beauty. It was more than just hiring good architects and painters and musicians etc, it's a matter of hiring the right ones who achieve overall harmony. And certainly Dresden under Augustus became breathtakingly beautiful. "Elbflorenz", Florence at the Elbe, wasn't just a nickname. Even the patriotic Lehndorff who when he finally saw Versailles thought Sanssouci was better was wowed by Dresden. (It's beautiful again today after a long interlude because the city was really flattened in WWII, and most of the buildings had to be reconstructed from scratch, which didn't happen until reunification and some serious money being pumped into it. But even so, it's worth looking at the famous Canaletto paintings to appreciate just what a stunner old Dresden was.) The "Grünes Gewölbe", the Green Vault, was one of the earliest royal art and jewelry collections made open for the public to admire (which Lehndorff did), and it truly is outstanding. And then there's the porcellain. Granted, Augustus lucked out in that it - or rather, the Saxon variation of it - was discovered just at the right time, but pre-Augustus, everyone collected Asian porcellain, and post Augustus, Saxon porcellain was one of the top exports which everyone wanted to have.

(Fritz and Caroline Fredersdorf in rare unitiy: Absolutely!)

The university of Leipzig was THE German university to be before the Hannover cousins (GII and successors) sponsored Göttingen, and Saxony had the leading German musicians as long as Augustus was still alive. In whort, Blanning makes the argument for Augustus creating a Gesamtkunstwerk (he uses the German term) in Saxony on a level that could compete with any other European capital, Versailles included, and that he therefore deserves to be acknowledged as an artist.

Biographers of F1: Yeah, yeah, but then why gets our guy bashed?

Blanning: Because Augustus didn't have Fritz as a grandson.

From:

selenak

Liselotte (another not enthusiastic Protestant-to-Catholic convert) about attending mass at Versailles: It may be a great honour to sit next to the King in church, but I would gladly relinquish it because His Majesty won't let me sleep. AS soon as I doze off, he nudges me with his elbow and wakes me up again, so that I am neither wholly asleep nor wholly awake. It gives me a headache.

Liselotte about August having become King of Poland: That the Elector of Saxony could not be satisfied with being an Elector only goes to show what I have long observed, that no one can be really happy in this world and everyone foolishily sets about throwing away his happiness, for this Elector would have been a thousand times happier if he had gone on enjoying a quiet and peaceful life as Elector of Saxony instead of becoming King of such a factious and volatile nataion, o fwhich he will never be the absolute Lord and Master but will only ever be king in name only and not in reality

(indeed.)

Charles: There is no doubt that his decision to depose Augustus is the great lunacy of Charles XII's life, corresponding to Napoleon's Spanish hallucination. It condemned him to a Sisyphean struggle whose scope he could hardly have imagined. When the news finally filtered back to Russia, Peter was understandably delighted. His hands were now free, at least for a slong as Charles was stuck in the Polish morass. Had he the gift of prophecy he might wel have anticipated the words recorded by Winston Churchill when he learned of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour: 'I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved.'

Charles has Patkul the Livonian executed so gruesomely even the executor (who never had to perform a wheel and quarter type of execution before) can't stand it:

(...)Patkul was tied to the wheel. The executioner then began his gruesome task, using a sledgehammer. AS it fell for the first time, Patkul screamed 'Jesus! Jesus! Have mercy on me!" Every bone in his body was then broken, including his spine. Hagen recorded that the clumsiness of the inexperienced executioner meant that the agony was prolonged. It only ended when Patkul pleaded 'Cut my head off! Cut my head off! (Kopf ab! Kopf ab!) Perhaps sickened by what he was having to do, the executioner deviated from Charles' script and boliged, although it took four attempts before the head was severed. A frustrated Charles promptly cashiered him. (...) It is some measure of Ragnild Hatton's determination always to present her hero in the best possible light that her only reference comes in a terse footnote: 'Patkul was executed in September 1707. That is not the way to present what became one of the most notorious quasi-judical atrocities of the eighteeenth century, rivalled only by the equally ghastly end of Louis XV's would be assassin Damiens in 1757. Voltaire's verdict on Patkul's demise was 'there is no civilian in all Eurpoe, nay even the vilest slave ,but must feel the whole horror of this barbarous injustice.'

Charles loses the Swedish Empire partly by not realising he should have paid attention to the navy:

Many were the causes of his daownful, but top of the list must stand his obtuse failure to recognize the importance of the navy. His thalassophobia would have been less damaging if it had not been countered by the equally passionate thalassohilia of his great enemy, Tsar Peter.

(I never heard the term "thalassophilia" before, but yeah, Peter sure did love the sea. And sea trade. And having an open harbor.)

The commercial hotspot of Poland wasn't Warsaw but the free city of Danzig (Gdansk):

The latter was by far the most important, indeed it was the most populous and prosperous city of the entire Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. That its budget was twenty times that of the Polish state in the first half of the seventeenth century testifies both to its own strength and the weakness of its host. Its population of around 40,000 was almost double that of Warsaw. But Danzig was Polish only in a limited sense, for its inhabitants were predominantly German by language and Lutheran by religion.

Augustus and Poland aren't even consulted when Peter makes finally officially peace with Sweden when the Great Northern War ends:

After this fiasco, Augustus II and the Poles went their separate ways, he promoting the interests of the House of Wettin, the szlachta, lulled by a false sense of security, eating, drinking, makijng merry and cultivating their garden of anarchy, ignorance and religious intolerance. (...) Poland was turning into a wayside inn open for unwanted and non-paying guests.

Lastly: the battles are described in detail, but this, Mildred, you'll have to look up on your own.

Re: Tim Blanning: Augustus the Strong: A Study in Artistic Greatness and Political Fiasco: Quotes

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cahn - Date: 2025-01-05 06:30 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tim Blanning: Augustus the Strong: A Study in Artistic Greatness and Political Fiasco: Quotes

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mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2025-01-06 12:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak - Date: 2025-01-09 09:06 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tim Blanning: Augustus the Strong: A Study in Artistic Greatness and Political Fiasco

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Continuing with the theme of finding out more about Peter and his family through the power of decipherment...

Remember when Du Moulin and Meinerzhagen were hunting Peter in the Netherlands, and they forged a letter from Fritz to Peter, hoping to lure Peter out? With my newly improved decipherment skills, I can read (most of) FW's handwriting, and I just discovered it was his idea!

My dear Colonel du Moulin. I order you to go to London, or even to Strasbourg if necessary. There you should find out whether the deserted Lieutenant Kait is there.

If you find him, you should have handed over to him these letters from my son, in which he is ordered to come to Speyer. If you lure him out into the [open], you should arrest him immediately.

(Honestly, it's shocking I can read as much of FW's handwriting as I can. December was time well spent!)

In other news: Keith family drama! At least one person wasn't surprised when Karl needed to be recalled from Turin for fighting a duel. Back when he was very first assigned to Turin, someone who I think is one of his Knyphausen uncles (or possibly cousins) wrote to another of his Knyphausen uncles or cousins:

I do not know whether I should congratulate Madame de Keith on her son's mission to Turin. With what you tell me, he will have to support himself in this post. He will be very constrained there, and moreover, I do not believe him very suitable for the character of a negotiator, especially in the most refined and most refined court in Europe.

I wasn't aware Turin was the most refined court in Europe, but okay!

I never wanted to speak to you about the subjects of complaint that I have against him, fearing that it would harm him in your mind and would afflict my sisters, but because you are informed in part, I will tell you that what displeased me in him from the beginning of our acquaintance is the lack of cordiality and frankness. He took pains in Paris to hide this approach from me. His investment in life annuities and other foolish things were immediately known. I pretended to be ignorant of all of it so as not to have any trouble which would upset my sisters, but when he left, I sent him the letters he asked me for Berlin, in all of which I praised him for the reason I have just said.

He took it into his head to open the letter I wrote to my brother and to send it back to me, asking me to change a few things in it. You will agree, Sir and very dear brother, that such a procedure could only be excused by an extreme simplicity and ignorance of behavior, and you know as well as I do that one could not accuse him of either; to what then can one attribute such a grievous offense?

Wow. So on the one hand, this is hilarious; on the other hand, why do we mostly only have correspondence from the 1760s, 1770s, and 1820s?? Where is all the 1740s and 1750s gossip, when Peter was alive???

From:

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2025-01-20 05:18 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Firstly: Since I am curious about people leaving Kudos at my Frederician tales, I found out one of them has written a story about EC - in Italian. Inspired by reading Blanning‘s Fritz biography and being indignant about her treatment. (By Fritz, not Blanning.) This is probably the first EC centric story at the A03, and going by Google translate, not bad. It even has both Fredersdorf and Algarotti, and young Heinrich making out with Marwitz.

Secondly: reading the G3 biography which has a lot of Fritz of Wales early on before he dies reminds me that I‘m still plagued by one specifici plot bunny, to wit: the AU where Fritz of Wales makes a successful escape attempt to Prussia. I know we discussed this a bit before, but mostly whether FW would cling to „the father is always right in a father/son conflict“ and send the young man back or whether ill feeling towards G2 would win out and he‘d keep Fritz of Wales around for a while.

For maximum irony, when should this alternate ecape take place? (Obviously it can‘t take place before Fritz of Wales is in England and finds out his parents and siblings all are hostile towards him.)

A) 1729, so Fritz of Prussia hasn‘t escaped yet and can go WTF at the idea of someone escaping to Prussia

B) 1730, simultanous to Fritz of Prussia‘s actual escape attempt, which because everyone is distracted by the sensational Fritz of Wales news actually works, meaning both FW and G2 are landed with each other‘s escaped sons.

C) 1731, December, so Fritz of Wales can gatecrash Wilhelmine‘s wedding and Fritz of Prussia‘s extremely awkward reunion with her?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, man, I can't choose! I laughed out loud at all of them.

Fritz: Escaping TO Prussia???! D:

Lol.

But 1730 has the potential to be combined with the G2-FW duel where they kill each other! I mean, G2's not going to hand over Fritz, and FW's not going to hand over Fritz of Wales, and it's only been a year (August 1729) since the near-duel/near-war, and voila!

But then the Wilhelmine one is probably the one you would do best, with your sibling interests.

All good options!

I found out one of them has written a story about EC - in Italian.

I saw that it existed, but my fiction reading has been very very limited. Good to know it was well written!

Inspired by reading Blanning‘s Fritz biography and being indignant about her treatment. (By Fritz, not Blanning.)

Thank you for clarifying, I was starting to rack my brains to remember what Blanning had done that was so objectionable.

(no subject)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

So, remember back five years ago when Selena found the Lehndorff family archive in Leipzig, including a document described as:

titled Brautwerbung Ernst Ahasverus Heinrich von Lehndorffs bei der Oberburggräfin von Tettau um ihre Enkelin Catharine du Rosey from the year 1749, i.e. young Lehndorff asking the Countess von Tettau for the hand of her granddaughter Catharine du Rosey (later to become Frau von Katte instead). Summary description "contains among other things description of intrigues", presumably why the match faltered and the family handed her over to the Kattes instead. The dating of 1749 - as opposed to Lehndorff later mention of it as 1751 - is interesting; either he proposed in 1749 and they were an item until 1751, which is unlikely, I mean, one year between proposal and engagement is the done thing, but not two unless you're a royal and there are endless negotiations -, or he's just misremembering. If the later, it might be because his mother quickly proposed an alternate match in 1751 which he rejected.

If all of this sounds like a quick to the Leipzig State Archive would be great: yeah, if one were able to read unorthodox spelling in Rokoko era French hand written letters and note books with the occasional German sentence!

?

Also, remember when, 6 months later, I discovered that cousin du Rosey had been born in 1738 and married Ludolf von Katte the Bride-stealer in 1755? And Selena and I were like, "No, those dates *can't* be right!"

selenak: The 1749 date for Lehndorff's proposal is based on the Leipzig state archive dating the box containing the Lehndorff correspondance on that matter to this year, but that's the archive dating, and not having seen the contents of the box, I don't know whether they're basing it on dated letters or just assumptions. They just give it in their online catalogue, which is how I came across it. (Lehndorff himself gives us only the date of 1751 as for when they were supposed to marry - in the diary entry when he meets her again as Frau von Katte - , and a one year or more gap for an engagement among nobles is normal.) And no, I can't see a proposal to an eleven years old being done at that time, either. These weren't the Middle Ages anymore, and the extended Lehndorff-du Rosey-tribe were East Prussian nobility, not royalty.

Well! Yours truly now reads weirdly spelled handwritten French and German, and never tires of taking advantage of that fact. This document ended up being in German, and the Saxon archive actually sent it to me for free, since it was only 4 pages. <3

And here is what I found.

Lehndorff TOTALLY proposed to his 11-year-old cousin Catherine du Rosey in 1749. See, her parents had died (her mother in childbirth with her, according to a genealogy forum where someone said they inspected her baptism record), and she was the heir to a fortune! And Lehndorff with his dead-end job is a fortune-hunter!

Now, Catherine's grandmother, the Oberburggräfin von Tettau said she was only eleven and thus way too young. But Grandma was in big favor of the marriage idea in general, and wanted it to happen someday. But she figured she would die soon, so she wrote in her will that the child's guardians should consider someone descended in the same line as her (i.e., cousin Lehndorff), so that they could get married, once she reached the legal age of consent, which was 14.

Keep in mind Lehndorff is 24.

But the child had a stepmother who received a stipend for taking care of her, and if the child got married, Stepmom would lose the stipend. So she started having Major von Katte (this is Ludolf) over as a guest every day, and promised him her stepdaughter in marriage. (Presumably Ludolf and Stepmom came to an agreement for some kind of financial arrangement in the event of the marriage.)

Grandma, knowing nothing of this, wrote to Fritz asking permission for Lehndorff to marry her granddaughter. But Stepmom ALSO wrote to Fritz asking if Ludolf could marry her. And Stepmom raised the child to favor Ludolf, and never to set foot on Grandma's doorstep.

Keep in mind, Ludolf is in his 40s.

So Fritz sends the court preacher to aks the child what she wants, and if she's really changed her mind about Lehndorff.

Now, throughout the document, she's referred to consistently as "das Kind", except for her initial introduction as "Catherine du Rosey." Because, remember, she is ELEVEN when this starts and THIRTEEN now. I'm referring to her as "the child" throughout my summary of the document, both because that reflects the original language, and to emphasize how young she is. Because English speakers use "girl" of adult women long past the point where they will use "boy" of a man, so I'm using "child" to reinforce that this is not a twenty-three year-old "girl" but an actual child.

The child responds with what I was thinking the whole time as I was deciphering up to this point: "I don't have an inclination toward either of them, or any person; I'm too young to be married! But I especially don't have an inclination toward Major von Katte."

Mildred: That's WHAT I SAID!!

But then, at least according to the view of events that the Lehndorff family preserved--I don't trust this account to be unbiased at all--she's forced to state her preference in front of her stepmother and a bunch of guests, and she's pressured into declaring for Ludolf.

Grandma decides the child must have been pressured into this declaration, so she works on getting herself alone with the kid, and keeps asking, "Don't you WANT to be a good girl and marry Lehndorff??" But the child always says she wants Ludolf.

Mildred: OMG EVERYONE LEAVE HER ALONE, she's THIRTEEN!!

Eventually, Fritz decides Ludolf is the way to go, but the child can only legally get married if Grandma consents. And Fritz hopes Grandma will consent.

And then the child comes to Grandma unsolicited, in the presence of an unrelated woman (not named by the text), whom the Lehndorffs convinced is there to make sure she only says what she was instructed to say. And even though Grandma is sending her money every month and is planning to leave her more in her will (!!), the child uses such disrespectful language that Grandma starts having symptoms that make everyone fear she's having a stroke, and has to be bled within an hour of the conversation.

Mildred: OMG, Grandma and Stepmom both sound like the WORST.

And then Grandma starts researching how she can disinherit the child, or cut her mostly out of the will. And there are some appendices to the text where she's presenting inheritance scenarios, and legal texts are cited in support of the fact that she totally can. Here is an excerpt from a legal text that gets cited in support of Grandma:

In the event that, after secret pre-engagement, the disobedient child, contrary to the will of its parents, should persist in its evil conduct and refuse to deviate from the engagement, then the parents hereby expressly reserve the right against such disobedient child to either disinherit the child completely, but according to the nature and circumstances of the matter, or not owe the child any tribute, marriage property, repayment, donationem propter nuptias, or anything at all.

In conclusion: ESH (everyone sucks here), except the poor girl, and my days of being glad I don't live in the past, especially as a woman, are certainly coming to a middle.

So this, I believe, is why Catherine du Rosey ends up not marrying Ludolf until 1755, when she's 17. I would like to say it's because somebody decided 14 was too young to get married, but obviously nobody in this story gives a shit about that, so I say it's Stepmom wants to hang on to the stipend longer, and she has an agreement with Ludolf.

ASSUMING this is what happened; maybe Stepmom ACTUALLY didn't want the girl getting married at 14, and the Lehndorffs who lost out on the fortune just SAID Stepmom was motivated by evil mercenary motives. I mean, whoever wrote this clearly thought the girl should be pleased to marry whoever Grandma says whenever Grandma says, because Grandma pays her bills. (I won't believe everything bad the account says of Stepmom, but since this part is clearly intended as a defense of Grandma, I'm willing to believe Grandma both pressured the girl using money and the emotional manipulation of "Look how you almost killed me!")

Also, I think we now have more context on another development that's come up in salon: remember when Lehndorff was devastated by the prospect of losing a fortune because his cousin Marschall von Bieberstein died young? Turns out Bieberstein was related to Grandma too, and he was the closest related male individual that would stand to inherit her fortune if Catherine du Rosey got all or mostly disinherited, and Grandma when Grandma was looking for alternatives to the ungrateful and disrespectful granddaughter for her inheritance, she wanted to either leave all her property to Bieberstein in her will, or sell it to him when she was alive, or enter into joint ownership of it with him, so that he was still in possession when she died.

I'm guessing, since Grandma really wanted her property to go to Lehndorff + Catherine via marriage, that part of the reason she was willing to leave it to Bieberstein may have been because Bieberstein was willing to leave it to Lehndorff. In any case, this is where some/all of the fortune Lehndorff lost out on when Bieberstein died came from.

As a reminder, here's how Lehndorff presented events in 1787, with a distinct tone of "sour grapes". Remember that his earlier diary entries are devastated that he didn't get to marry her:

I've had the same experience in money matters. When I was twenty, I was supposed to marry a very rich Fräulein du Rosey. Her family was all for the match while mine nearly had to force me into it. But in the last moment, an evil mother-in-law ruined everything. The young miss had a half brother, Marschall v. Bieberstein, who had much affection for me while he couldn't stand his sister. He wanted to leave all his fortune to me. Then he comes to Berlin, wants to make a last will in my favor, gets small pox, loses his head and dies.

So the two fortunes Lehndorff lost out on in the 1750s were actually related to the same marriage intrigues.

As a reminder,

cahn, Ludolf was not a great husband, and Catherine du Rosey ended up leaving him (and taking the kids?).

Poor girl: first she's orphaned, then she's raised by people who care more about money than her, then they start pressuring her into marrying older men starting at age 11, then she ends up caught up in the middle of a family feud over the question of her marriage, then she marries at 17--which is still too young! if this is somebody you've been pressured into marrying since you were ELEVEN--some guy who treats her badly and whom she ends up having to leave.

This also puts a whole new spin on Lehndorff's diary entries saying that after her marriage, they became friends, and insisting that she would have been so much happier with him. I mean, he might have treated her better, but her "decision" to marry Katte instead of him has so much more context now.

ALSO, it's unclear how this account fits with Fontane's story that Fritz decided a different Katte should be married to an heiress, and Ludolf decided to marry her while he was supposed to be checking her out on behalf of his brother.

That said, let me emphasize AGAIN that I don't trust the account in the Lehndorff archives, which is undated and unsigned, to be telling us what really happened. But in any case, the feuding and pressuring are pretty clear. ETA: I say pressuring, because the document confirms that she was only 13 when the 1751 stuff went down, and Lehndorff's diaries make it clear that he did want to marry her in that year and that she was going to marry Ludolf von Katte instead, and given her age, that counts as pressure even if everyone was very calm and nondramatic about it.

Edited Date: 2025-01-11 04:24 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

mildred_of_midgard

Every time I think I should skip deciphering a set of papers because it's not relevant, and deciphering is a lot of work, it turns out to contain highly important and/or interesting material!

So. This adventure all starts with Wikipedia.

Every time I want to refresh myself on Oriane's dates, I have to go to her father's page in Wikipedia, which conveniently lists all her siblings and their spouses (very useful for checking their marriage dates, Hertzberg's dates, etc.).

She had one older brother who died as a baby, and one older brother, Tido Heinrich, of whom Wikipedia simply says "Went to Batavia."

After ascertaining that Batavia was in the Dutch East Indies, I ignored Tido as not being relevant to our story.

It should have occured to me that the oldest son of a prominent family like this does not simply go to the Dutch East Indies. Younger son, sure. But oldest son? There is a story there. There is *drama* there.

Eventually, fairly recently, it occurred to me to click on the footnote and discover who claimed Tido went to Batavia.

Turns out we have a set of letters (probably "letters"), from an English "merchant in Bengal," written in 1783.

According to this guy, Tido was a lieutenant in Prussian service. In 1742 or 1743 (but what context makes rapidly clear was 1741), Fritz fought his first battle. Fellow salongoers, this is Mollwitz. Fritz "took fright, and made a very un-soldier-like retreat; and was five leagues from the scene of action, when his General"--Cahn, this is Schwerin--"who commanded, recalled him, with the news of his enemies having been entirely routed."

These events inspired Tido to write a severe satire. When Fritz found out, he had Tido arrested. Tido got the sentinel who was guarding him to flee the country with him, and they ended up in the Netherlands. Despairing of a pardon, Tido joined the Dutch East India Company. The General of Batavia had some knowledge of the Knyphausen family and strongly recommended him. As a result, Tido was sent abroad, and ended up in Batavia (modern-day Jakarta, in Indonesia).

The merchant then goes on to say that this account may be a complete tall tale, because, "I had it from the Baron [Tido] himself; not in private conversation, but in very large and public companies; where, in an ostentatious display of his own great power and abilities, he constantly convinced his audience, that whatever might be his character as a merchant, as a politician, he was entirely free from the shackles imposed by virtue, christianity, and morality."

Lol. I will have to make a separate post talking about what the merchant said about what Tido said about his time abroad. It's pretty wild, and I'll probably quote it in full, once I type it up.

Meanwhile! So far, I had discovered that Oriane had an older brother who may or may not have written a satire about Fritz and gotten arrested. Interesting, but not relevant to Peter. Or at least, it didn't occur to me how the timing could have made it relevant to Peter. So I let that sit for a few months.

Fortunately, after sifting through the Knyphausen family papers in more detail in December, I found several letters from a Knyphausen to his mother in 1741-1744, beginning with Silesia in 1741. Since Oriane's mother was an unmarried widow, and there was no father to write to, and since she only had one brother of age to be in the army, I got excited! This must be Tido!

I started to skim the letters (in French).

"Wow, whoever this is seems *really* *unhappy*. I bet it's Tido!"

So I put the letters on my list of letters to come back to and transcribe in full.

Turns out: it's totally Tido.

The first letter I have is from June 1741. Tido's in the recently conquered Breslau, Silesia. Remember that Mollwitz was fought in April 1741. He's writing to his mother in a rather blase fashion, telling her that Fritz has written a letter to Colonel Münchow that reads:

Since Lieutenant von Knyphausen is in Breslau under the pretext of illness, have him brought there immediately and ordered him to go to the city [??], and if he does not do so immediately, put him under arrest immediately and report to me.

But Tido kept insisting he was sick. The king's personal physician had to come and inspect him, and confirmed he did have a fever.

Tido's letter then carries on talking to his mother about horses, and ends on that note, like it's every day that the king threatens to have you arrested, and is not really worth worrying about, as long as you have a plausible excuse.

To be continued...

Edited Date: 2025-01-12 11:35 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

Whoa!

These events inspired Tido to write a severe satire.

Me: Of course they did! Who among us has not wanted to write a satire of Fritz fleeing Mollwitz?
Voltaire: I mean.

When Fritz found out, he had Tido arrested.

Me: ...of course he did.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Then I don't have any more Knyphausen letters until November 1743 (I think that's a 3 in 1743), so we'll get back to the adventures of Tido, but after transcribing all these letters, it occurred to me that, much like Karl von Keith's duel, this *has* to be in Fritz's correspondence!

Sure enough, we get this letter from Fritz to Jordan in March 1742:

My dear Jordan, you will go to Madame de Knyphausen, and tell her that, after I have sufficiently informed her of my wishes on the subject of her son, whom she has made arrangements for despite my intentions, if she does not bring him back immediately, I will take revenge on her as an angry master who punishes a bad citizen who acts against the State. Announce my vengeance to her, and tell her that I have means in hand, more than she thinks, to make up for her unfaithfulness and her treason; that she has found a way to quarrel with everyone, and that in the end I am obliged to admit that the world is right; but that there are houses of correction for wicked women, just as there are places where bad citizens are sequestered. Farewell; be assured that I love you with all my heart.

This is the man who wanted Wilhelmine to lock up that journalist, all right.

Now, the timing and recipient of this letter are SO extremely interesting to me. Because you may recall that Jordan was Peter's go-between with Fritz in early 1742! In December 1741, Fritz wrote to Jordan that he would increase Peter's salary, and maybe now Peter would give him some peace.

Then in March, Fritz wrote the letter of fire and brimstone to Jordan about Peter's prospective mother-in-law (remember that Peter and Oriane are engaged, but won't get married until the summer).

Then in April 1741, Jordan wrote that Fritz had charged Jordan with a "commission" regarding Peter, which he had carried out. (Me: What commission??? Tell me!!) Jordan wrote that "This honest man would ask nothing better than to serve Your Majesty; but he would like not to be idle, at his age, while his friends are in the army; he regards his condition as a state of shame. He protests moreover that with his income he is not in a condition to live in Berlin, where indeed everything is very expensive."

Then in May 1741, Jordan writes: "Madame Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her estates in Ost-Friesland, and that she will ask permission. I will naturally confess to Your Mmajesty that I pity her fate. Keith cannot digest the mortification of remaining in Berlin while everyone else is in the army."

I didn't know that Fritz was so pissed off at Madame Knyphausen when Jordan wrote this! I knew he was annoyed with Peter, and that Jordan was being brave to take Keith's side, but wow.

Then in June, Jordan writes:

Knyphausen will go, I believe, to her estates; she continues to be ill. I pity her: not being well, having five daughters to marry, a son who is a vagabond, not being able to make arrangements for a man whom one would like to make one's son-in-law [Peter], there is in all this reason to be upset.

I've been curious for a long time what it is that's taking Peter out of Berlin. I used to think he'd been given permission to join the army, but the way "Keith cannot digest the mortification of remaining in Berlin while everyone else is in the army" reads, I feel like he's saying he's still not in the army. I think he's just gotten permission to go live in the country or something, and he doesn't feel he can live in Berlin and support Oriane, so he can't marry her.

And I kind of wonder if him wanting to marry into this particular family right at this exact time is making Fritz even more annoyed (remember that Peter would have had to ask Fritz for permission to marry her), or if this is just one of those compartmentalization things. But don't forget that Peter and Oriane end up living *with* her mother and younger siblings, presumably because it's too expensive to get their own place in Berlin. So the ties there are pretty close, and maybe it's not making Fritz more well disposed toward Peter.

Next up: what happened to Tido abroad, and how did he drag Peter into it?

ETA: And a little further chronology reminder: the First Silesian War ends in June, and Peter's able to hold his head up in Berlin and marry Oriane in mid August.

ETA: The more I think about it, the more I think the "commission" was "Tell Peter he can't join the army, he's not getting any more money, and stop bothering me."

Edited Date: 2025-01-13 12:22 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

I commented elsewhere on some aspects of this, but let me add:

there are houses of correction for wicked women

This is a truly nasty threat. Because that's what FW did to Doris Ritter. I mean, I don't think he'd have done it, for class reasons if for nothing else. (Note: FW did it to non-noble Doris Ritter. Ototh, Manteuffel's noble girlfriend and spy whom they discovered to be his girlfriend and spy during the Clement affair got first a bit of house arrest, and then got banished, but after some years and cajoling by SD ended up as governess of Fritz' sister Sophie, unless I misremember.) Still. It tells you just how upset he was. And Voltaire wasn't even involved!

(Perhaps extra upset because it's so close to the actual event and he's not Frederick the Great yet, there is still the possibility that instead of being regarded with fear and awe by all of Europe for how he pulled off that invasion, he will instead be ridiculed.)

Oh, and Mildred, I seem to recall that when we read Nancy G.'s book, Felis did a little compare and contrast to track down who reported what on Fritz' flight/strategic retreat from Mollwitz because we were curious whether her version had any basis on any contemporary report. I don't think the merchant from Bengal was one of the sources, but I do find it interesting that he phrases it as ""took fright, and made a very un-soldier-like retreat", because I think you suspected the first to hint (by joking how far Fritz got before the news of the Prussian victory reached him) that Fritz left the battlefield because he was afraid was Voltaire. If the merchant's report predates the publication of Voltaire's memoirs, it was Tido Knyphausen!

Which inevitably begs the question (since Knyphausen was actually present at Mollwitz, whether or not he was still tight with his mother's former boyfriend): yes, we know Fritz was later a leading from the front himself guy who got his horses shot under him by enemy fire, and no one could question his physical bravery. But this was his very first real battle (Philippsburg doesn't count in terms of life and death risks). So could it be that his version - that Schwerin practically forced him to leave - is perhaps a bit embellished? I mean, I still believe it was Schwerin's idea, but maybe a part of him was scared, and that's yet another reason why he's in full FW mode on this. (FW is only a year dead, less than a year, and his voice, commmenting HE always knew Wretched Son didn't have what it takes as a soldier, must have been especially loud in Fritz' head.)

Re: A Knyphausen satire - Part 2

From:

cahn - Date: 2025-01-15 05:56 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: A Knyphausen satire - Part 2

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2025-01-16 10:16 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Remember when Oriane's mother was supposed to have paid a fine to FW for giving birth to an illegimate child? There's going to be a whole thread on this, because I'm finding stuff in the Knyphausen papers--there is (predictably) drama!--but first I wanted to ask:

I seem to recall Crown Prince Fritz being sympathetic to her. Does anybody remember where we found this? I'm not finding it in a quick search of salon, and I need to focus on deciphering right now. If no one knows, I'll hunt for it later.

(Omg, yet *again* I glance at a letter I thought was unimportant, and my list of things that absolutely need to be deciphered asap gets even longer.)