Good lord, this is hysterical. And a good example of fake news in the 18th century. What's historically fascinating is of course how completely accepted this "poor Fritz was to be forced to become Catholic and marry MT, and this is why he fled!" story gets by the Brits (I say the Brits, because I really don't think that was the tale in France, and we know it wasn't in Austria), up to and including the idea that FW, one of THE most hardcore Protestant monarchs of Europe, would beat his son for refusing to become Catholic. (Rather than the opposite.) I mean, it shows of couse who completely ignorant the British aristocracy (and presumably also the middle classes) were of anythng going on in Prussia, but also how deeply scarred everyone still was by future August III of Saxony converting. And why Fritz could sell poor Katte on this story (minus the part of FW beating him for this reason - that's where Katte, being somewhwat more familiar with NO POPERY FW, would have said, hang on...).
(As we've said, given FW completly believed it when Clement spun the tale of the dastardly Saxons and Austrians killing or kidnapping him, FW, in order to make Fritz King after he converted to Catholicism, and raised his kids to think the Austrians would love nothing better than getting upstanding Prostant princes in their hands to in order to convert them and would pay any price for this, it must have confused even Fritz himself when he tried the "hey, how about I marry an Archduchess" post 1730 and just got a HELL NO! from Grumbkow, Seckendorff and Eugene.)
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before, [personal profile] selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters. (Remember, young SD also discussed some of her marriage trouble with Grandma Sophie of Hannover.) So that's definitely news/plain old invention. Not that I don't buy irrationally jealous FW, and of course F1 was the money spending glamour providing type of baroque prince whom SD presumably would have liked to have been married to... but he was also small, fragile and a much ridiculed by his contemporaries "hunchback", while young FW was in the best shape he'd ever be in his life. And F1 was defnitely not the type of monarch hitting it off with the ladies in general by using his power as a monarch to compensate for the lack of physical attractions; the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
AAAAAnd that's still leaving out F1 trying to get a spare to his heir on wife No.3 during FW's early marriage with SD, about which both FW and SD were miffed, and FW's devotion to the patriarchy and belief a father is always right. But anyway, my main argument for this story being a post facto invention is that if young FW, not a self restrained fellow, would have suspected his Dad of getting it on with his wife, he a) would have written and shouted to SD about it, and b) the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
What's historically fascinating is of course how completely accepted this "poor Fritz was to be forced to become Catholic and marry MT, and this is why he fled!" story gets by the Brits (I say the Brits, because I really don't think that was the tale in France, and we know it wasn't in Austria)
I thought this was the story in Protestant Germany and Switzerland, but I looked it up, and I was misremembering. It was the predestination I was thinking of:
Frederick began to receive fan-mail. A suspiciously named Sophie Sappho from Rougement in Switzerland wrote to the prince to tell him he was a martyr, 'a young, pious[!], shining hero … all Europe admires you'. The reference to the prince’s piety may have indicated that Sophie Sappho was a Swiss Calvinist. The Calvinists thought Frederick a hero because he would not give up his faith in predestination. Wolden thought the letter came from Prussia, however, and it naturally gave rise to fears that a party was forming behind the prince.
The [!] is [sic]: that's MacDonogh raising both eyebrows. :D
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
Agreed!
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters.
Okay, good. I didn't remember it, and I *thought* it was the kind of thing I'd remember, but I've forgotten things before. Thank you for confirming this was the fake news I thought it was. And yeah, nobody in Britain (or later in France/Prussia; see Thiebault) had the first idea what FW was about.
the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
FW beating Fritz for not wanting to turn Catholic!
!!
And a good example of fake news in the 18th century.
Heh. I guess so!
the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
Ha! Poor F1. (Though I guess possibly a nice gig for the lady, if true...)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-17 10:54 am (UTC)(As we've said, given FW completly believed it when Clement spun the tale of the dastardly Saxons and Austrians killing or kidnapping him, FW, in order to make Fritz King after he converted to Catholicism, and raised his kids to think the Austrians would love nothing better than getting upstanding Prostant princes in their hands to in order to convert them and would pay any price for this, it must have confused even Fritz himself when he tried the "hey, how about I marry an Archduchess" post 1730 and just got a HELL NO! from Grumbkow, Seckendorff and Eugene.)
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before, [personal profile] selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters. (Remember, young SD also discussed some of her marriage trouble with Grandma Sophie of Hannover.) So that's definitely news/plain old invention. Not that I don't buy irrationally jealous FW, and of course F1 was the money spending glamour providing type of baroque prince whom SD presumably would have liked to have been married to... but he was also small, fragile and a much ridiculed by his contemporaries "hunchback", while young FW was in the best shape he'd ever be in his life. And F1 was defnitely not the type of monarch hitting it off with the ladies in general by using his power as a monarch to compensate for the lack of physical attractions; the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
AAAAAnd that's still leaving out F1 trying to get a spare to his heir on wife No.3 during FW's early marriage with SD, about which both FW and SD were miffed, and FW's devotion to the patriarchy and belief a father is always right. But anyway, my main argument for this story being a post facto invention is that if young FW, not a self restrained fellow, would have suspected his Dad of getting it on with his wife, he a) would have written and shouted to SD about it, and b) the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
Neat about Oglethorp, thank you.
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-20 11:39 pm (UTC)I thought this was the story in Protestant Germany and Switzerland, but I looked it up, and I was misremembering. It was the predestination I was thinking of:
Frederick began to receive fan-mail. A suspiciously named Sophie Sappho from Rougement in Switzerland wrote to the prince to tell him he was a martyr, 'a young, pious[!], shining hero … all Europe admires you'. The reference to the prince’s piety may have indicated that Sophie Sappho was a Swiss Calvinist. The Calvinists thought Frederick a hero because he would not give up his faith in predestination. Wolden thought the letter came from Prussia, however, and it naturally gave rise to fears that a party was forming behind the prince.
The [!] is [sic]: that's MacDonogh raising both eyebrows. :D
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
Agreed!
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters.
Okay, good. I didn't remember it, and I *thought* it was the kind of thing I'd remember, but I've forgotten things before. Thank you for confirming this was the fake news I thought it was. And yeah, nobody in Britain (or later in France/Prussia; see Thiebault) had the first idea what FW was about.
the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
Good point!
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-24 06:25 am (UTC)!!
And a good example of fake news in the 18th century.
Heh. I guess so!
the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
Ha! Poor F1. (Though I guess possibly a nice gig for the lady, if true...)