And then I discovered the diary of a Lord Egmont, whom I had not heard of, but he's a great source for the details of the inaccurate gossip that the average person in England was hearing about the Fritzcapade! Chesterfield was an envoy on the continent, with access to better-than-averages sources; Lord Egmont was...extremely not, as you'll see.
September 16:
I was informed of the true reason why the Prince of Prussia fled from his father, namely, he would oblige him to turn Papist to marry the Archduchess; the Prince refusing, the King collared him, whereupon the other thought best to fly for it, but was overtaken at Wesel, and is now confined in a castle situated very unwholesomely for air; 'tis well if the brute his father dont [sic] make him away, but he may do it as effectually, though not so suddenly, by leaving him in that confinement. He allows him sixpence a day for his maintenance. Two Colonels assisted him in his escape, one of whom had the good fortune to save himself in England, where he keeps incognito. The other was taken, and is now in chains, carrying a wheelbarrow in the King's works. The King, jealous that the Princess of Prussia knew of her brother's escape, beat her eyes almost out of her head. The poor Queen is inconsolable, and our Court shed tears when this account came. I have all this from good and undoubted hands.
A wheelbarrow! That's new! And we thought Dickens and Løvenørn had inaccurate news in Berlin. (Løvenørn had Katte in chains, remember, but not in a wheelbarrow.)
FW beating Fritz for not wanting to turn Catholic!
Also, remember that Nicolai told us that in his day, the dominant story was that Fritz was arrested in Wesel. I see that story started early. I also think (?) it's the first time we've actually seen that version, instead of having to take Nicolai's word for it.
September 30:
This morning Baron Bothmar told me that the private letters of his uncle, Count Bothmar, bring an account that that monster, the King of Prussia, had ordered a court-martial of officers to sit upon his son and try him as a deserter, he having the command of a regiment; that the officers refusing to sit on this occasion, the King had divested them of their orders and honours, and sent them in chains to work at the fortifications. That the Prince had been urged to confess who were privy to his flight, but he refuses to tell, because that would be certain death to them. His answer is the King is master of his person, and may do with him as he pleases; but tell he will not, anything to prejudice others. A new Council of War is summoned, at which the Prince of Anhalt is to be President: a man of violent and brutish character. In the meantime it is said the Prince is ill.
I notice that the British are not very interested in this "King in Prussia"/"King of Prussia" distinction. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mainly the Austrians who cared (and possibly rival German princes, like the Saxons).
Oh, and cahn, the Prince of Anhalt is the Old Dessauer, FW's only friend.
October 9:
Count Bothmar...told me several entertaining things this day, and run great encomiums on the late Princess Sophia, who, he said, was a lady of great learning and wit, and writ on certain occasions equal to Seneca. He said Frederick William, Elector of Brandenburg, grandfather to the present King of Prussia, was a courageous Prince, and understood war, but was extremely passionate and haughty; so that the most gross flattery was acceptable to him.
His son, the late King of Prussia, was equally vain, but good natured. He loved women, but was not capable of so much villainy as his brutish son, the present King, suspected him, namely of designing to corrupt his wife the present Queen.
He told me the present King had lately ordered a young woman, daughter to a clergyman, to be stripped to her shift, whipped, and afterwards banished, only for having played on a harpsichord to the Prince his son in a concert.
FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before, selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?
November 16, the best of all. At least Egmont has the sense to suspend belief!
There came news this day from London of a current report there, that the King of Prussia had caused his son to be beheaded, and obliged his Queen and daughter to see the execution. I suspend my belief till I hear further, though what cannot such a brute be guilty of? Brigadier Dormer told me that when this King served the campaign in Flanders (he was then only Prince), General Grumeau, now his first Minister, commanded a regiment of Prussians. That its coming to the Prussians' turn to mount the trenches, there were several regiments of them; the Duke of Marlborough complimented the Prince with desiring him to name which regiment of his nation should go. The Prince answered Grumeau's. The Duke replied that Grumeau was then sick in bed of a fever, and it would grieve him not to be on duty with his regiment, wherefore he entreated him to name some other, and the rather that it was not Grumeau's turn. But the Prince had the hardness, not only to persist, but to go to that General's tent to acquaint him that he must rise and enter the trenches that day. Grumeau, ill as he was, got up, and soon after the Brigadier saw him at his post, as pale as his cravat, and in a high fever. The news is more certain, that by the King's command an officer has been beheaded under the Prince's prison window, who, looking out to bid the young gentleman a last adieu, the officer said to him: "Sir, I die with pleasure if it contributes to your safety."
This is *definitely* going in the bio. Poor Peter! Even if Caroline immediately got word to him that it wasn't true, I'm sure he still worried about it.
cahn, the Flanders campaign in question would be the battle of Malplaquet, the extremely bloody one that turned FW off of bloody battles for the rest of his life.
Lol at Grumbkow aka Grumeau, having to get up and take up his post. Se non è vero, è molto ben trovato.
ETA: Oh, I forgot to mention that while all this is happening, Egmont is meeting with Oglethorpe to bring about the founding of Georgia! Wikipedia says:
While working on the Gaols Committee, Oglethorpe met and became close to John Perceval (who later became the first Earl of Egmont). After leaving the committee, Oglethorpe considered sending around 100 unemployed people from London to America. In 1730, he shared a plan to establish a new American colony with Perceval. The colony would be a place to send "the unemployed and the unemployable", and he anticipated broad societal support.
From Egmont's diary:
July 25: Mr. Oglethorp came to dine with me, and discourse the charter we design to apply for.
July 30: Went to town to the Society of Associates for Mr. Dalone's Legacy to convert blacks in America, and settle a colony in America. There were present Mr. Oglethorp, myself, Mr. Anderson, second accountant to the South Sea Company in that article that relates to their trade, Mr. Hucks, junior, Captain Coram, the Reverend Mr. Smith, and the Reverend Mr. Hales. We agreed on a petition to the King and Council for obtaining a grant of lands on the south-west of Carolina for settling poor persons of London, and having ordered it to be engrossed fair, we signed it, all who were present, and the other Associates were to be spoke also to sign it before delivered. A paper drawn up for Captain Coram to carry to Tunbridge in order to collect subscriptions to our scheme, conditional that a grant be made us of lands desired, was showed me, and my leave desired that I might be mentioned in it, because they thought it might facilitate subscriptions, and I readily gave it, but advised that some others might likewise be mentioned in it. I gave them ten guineas, which Colonel Schutz presented the Society out of the Prince's charity money to forward the design. Mr. Hastings sent five pound, and an unknown person by Mr. Oglethorp's hands twenty pound.
I thought that was neat, since we were recently emailing about Oglethorpe.
Also, "and the other Associates were to be spoke also to sign it before delivered," yes, that syntax is [sic]. Egmont apparently finds that sentence grammatical (or the editor made a mistake).
Good lord, this is hysterical. And a good example of fake news in the 18th century. What's historically fascinating is of course how completely accepted this "poor Fritz was to be forced to become Catholic and marry MT, and this is why he fled!" story gets by the Brits (I say the Brits, because I really don't think that was the tale in France, and we know it wasn't in Austria), up to and including the idea that FW, one of THE most hardcore Protestant monarchs of Europe, would beat his son for refusing to become Catholic. (Rather than the opposite.) I mean, it shows of couse who completely ignorant the British aristocracy (and presumably also the middle classes) were of anythng going on in Prussia, but also how deeply scarred everyone still was by future August III of Saxony converting. And why Fritz could sell poor Katte on this story (minus the part of FW beating him for this reason - that's where Katte, being somewhwat more familiar with NO POPERY FW, would have said, hang on...).
(As we've said, given FW completly believed it when Clement spun the tale of the dastardly Saxons and Austrians killing or kidnapping him, FW, in order to make Fritz King after he converted to Catholicism, and raised his kids to think the Austrians would love nothing better than getting upstanding Prostant princes in their hands to in order to convert them and would pay any price for this, it must have confused even Fritz himself when he tried the "hey, how about I marry an Archduchess" post 1730 and just got a HELL NO! from Grumbkow, Seckendorff and Eugene.)
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before, [personal profile] selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters. (Remember, young SD also discussed some of her marriage trouble with Grandma Sophie of Hannover.) So that's definitely news/plain old invention. Not that I don't buy irrationally jealous FW, and of course F1 was the money spending glamour providing type of baroque prince whom SD presumably would have liked to have been married to... but he was also small, fragile and a much ridiculed by his contemporaries "hunchback", while young FW was in the best shape he'd ever be in his life. And F1 was defnitely not the type of monarch hitting it off with the ladies in general by using his power as a monarch to compensate for the lack of physical attractions; the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
AAAAAnd that's still leaving out F1 trying to get a spare to his heir on wife No.3 during FW's early marriage with SD, about which both FW and SD were miffed, and FW's devotion to the patriarchy and belief a father is always right. But anyway, my main argument for this story being a post facto invention is that if young FW, not a self restrained fellow, would have suspected his Dad of getting it on with his wife, he a) would have written and shouted to SD about it, and b) the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
What's historically fascinating is of course how completely accepted this "poor Fritz was to be forced to become Catholic and marry MT, and this is why he fled!" story gets by the Brits (I say the Brits, because I really don't think that was the tale in France, and we know it wasn't in Austria)
I thought this was the story in Protestant Germany and Switzerland, but I looked it up, and I was misremembering. It was the predestination I was thinking of:
Frederick began to receive fan-mail. A suspiciously named Sophie Sappho from Rougement in Switzerland wrote to the prince to tell him he was a martyr, 'a young, pious[!], shining hero … all Europe admires you'. The reference to the prince’s piety may have indicated that Sophie Sappho was a Swiss Calvinist. The Calvinists thought Frederick a hero because he would not give up his faith in predestination. Wolden thought the letter came from Prussia, however, and it naturally gave rise to fears that a party was forming behind the prince.
The [!] is [sic]: that's MacDonogh raising both eyebrows. :D
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
Agreed!
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters.
Okay, good. I didn't remember it, and I *thought* it was the kind of thing I'd remember, but I've forgotten things before. Thank you for confirming this was the fake news I thought it was. And yeah, nobody in Britain (or later in France/Prussia; see Thiebault) had the first idea what FW was about.
the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
FW beating Fritz for not wanting to turn Catholic!
!!
And a good example of fake news in the 18th century.
Heh. I guess so!
the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
Ha! Poor F1. (Though I guess possibly a nice gig for the lady, if true...)
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timeasmymeasure
1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-16 09:05 pm (UTC)September 16:
I was informed of the true reason why the Prince of Prussia fled from his father, namely, he would oblige him to turn Papist to marry the Archduchess; the Prince refusing, the King collared him, whereupon the other thought best to fly for it, but was overtaken at Wesel, and is now confined in a castle situated very unwholesomely for air; 'tis well if the brute his father dont [sic] make him away, but he may do it as effectually, though not so suddenly, by leaving him in that confinement. He allows him sixpence a day for his maintenance. Two Colonels assisted him in his escape, one of whom had the good fortune to save himself in England, where he keeps incognito. The other was taken, and is now in chains, carrying a wheelbarrow in the King's works. The King, jealous that the Princess of Prussia knew of her brother's escape, beat her eyes almost out of her head. The poor Queen is inconsolable, and our Court shed tears when this account came. I have all this from good and undoubted hands.
A wheelbarrow! That's new! And we thought Dickens and Løvenørn had inaccurate news in Berlin. (Løvenørn had Katte in chains, remember, but not in a wheelbarrow.)
FW beating Fritz for not wanting to turn Catholic!
Also, remember that Nicolai told us that in his day, the dominant story was that Fritz was arrested in Wesel. I see that story started early. I also think (?) it's the first time we've actually seen that version, instead of having to take Nicolai's word for it.
September 30:
This morning Baron Bothmar told me that the private letters of his uncle, Count Bothmar, bring an account that that monster, the King of Prussia, had ordered a court-martial of officers to sit upon his son and try him as a deserter, he having the command of a regiment; that the officers refusing to sit on this occasion, the King had divested them of their orders and honours, and sent them in chains to work at the fortifications. That the Prince had been urged to confess who were privy to his flight, but he refuses to tell, because that would be certain death to them. His answer is the King is master of his person, and may do with him as he pleases; but tell he will not, anything to prejudice others. A new Council of War is summoned, at which the Prince of Anhalt is to be President: a man of violent and brutish character. In the meantime it is said the Prince is ill.
I notice that the British are not very interested in this "King in Prussia"/"King of Prussia" distinction. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mainly the Austrians who cared (and possibly rival German princes, like the Saxons).
Oh, and
October 9:
Count Bothmar...told me several entertaining things this day, and run great encomiums on the late Princess Sophia, who, he said, was a lady of great learning and wit, and writ on certain occasions equal to Seneca. He said Frederick William, Elector of Brandenburg, grandfather to the present King of Prussia, was a courageous Prince, and understood war, but was extremely passionate and haughty; so that the most gross flattery was acceptable to him.
His son, the late King of Prussia, was equally vain, but good natured. He loved women, but was not capable of so much villainy as his brutish son, the present King, suspected him, namely of designing to corrupt his wife the present Queen.
He told me the present King had lately ordered a young woman, daughter to a clergyman, to be stripped to her shift, whipped, and afterwards banished, only for having played on a harpsichord to the Prince his son in a concert.
FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before,
November 16, the best of all. At least Egmont has the sense to suspend belief!
There came news this day from London of a current report there, that the King of Prussia had caused his son to be beheaded, and obliged his Queen and daughter to see the execution. I suspend my belief till I hear further, though what cannot such a brute be guilty of? Brigadier Dormer told me that when this King served the campaign in Flanders (he was then only Prince), General Grumeau, now his first Minister, commanded a regiment of Prussians. That its coming to the Prussians' turn to mount the trenches, there were several regiments of them; the Duke of Marlborough complimented the Prince with desiring him to name which regiment of his nation should go. The Prince answered Grumeau's. The Duke replied that Grumeau was then sick in bed of a fever, and it would grieve him not to be on duty with his regiment, wherefore he entreated him to name some other, and the rather that it was not Grumeau's turn. But the Prince had the hardness, not only to persist, but to go to that General's tent to acquaint him that he must rise and enter the trenches that day. Grumeau, ill as he was, got up, and soon after the Brigadier saw him at his post, as pale as his cravat, and in a high fever. The news is more certain, that by the King's command an officer has been beheaded under the Prince's prison window, who, looking out to bid the young gentleman a last adieu, the officer said to him: "Sir, I die with pleasure if it contributes to your safety."
This is *definitely* going in the bio. Poor Peter! Even if Caroline immediately got word to him that it wasn't true, I'm sure he still worried about it.
Lol at Grumbkow aka Grumeau, having to get up and take up his post. Se non è vero, è molto ben trovato.
ETA: Oh, I forgot to mention that while all this is happening, Egmont is meeting with Oglethorpe to bring about the founding of Georgia! Wikipedia says:
While working on the Gaols Committee, Oglethorpe met and became close to John Perceval (who later became the first Earl of Egmont). After leaving the committee, Oglethorpe considered sending around 100 unemployed people from London to America. In 1730, he shared a plan to establish a new American colony with Perceval. The colony would be a place to send "the unemployed and the unemployable", and he anticipated broad societal support.
From Egmont's diary:
July 25: Mr. Oglethorp came to dine with me, and discourse the charter we design to apply for.
July 30: Went to town to the Society of Associates for Mr. Dalone's Legacy to convert blacks in America, and settle a colony in America. There were present Mr. Oglethorp, myself, Mr. Anderson, second accountant to the South Sea Company in that article that relates to their trade, Mr. Hucks, junior, Captain Coram, the Reverend Mr. Smith, and the Reverend Mr. Hales. We agreed on a petition to the King and Council for obtaining a grant of lands on the south-west of Carolina for settling poor persons of London, and having ordered it to be engrossed fair, we signed it, all who were present, and the other Associates were to be spoke also to sign it before delivered. A paper drawn up for Captain Coram to carry to Tunbridge in order to collect subscriptions to our scheme, conditional that a grant be made us of lands desired, was showed me, and my leave desired that I might be mentioned in it, because they thought it might facilitate subscriptions, and I readily gave it, but advised that some others might likewise be mentioned in it. I gave them ten guineas, which Colonel Schutz presented the Society out of the Prince's charity money to forward the design. Mr. Hastings sent five pound, and an unknown person by Mr. Oglethorp's hands twenty pound.
I thought that was neat, since we were recently emailing about Oglethorpe.
Also, "and the other Associates were to be spoke also to sign it before delivered," yes, that syntax is [sic]. Egmont apparently finds that sentence grammatical (or the editor made a mistake).
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-17 10:54 am (UTC)(As we've said, given FW completly believed it when Clement spun the tale of the dastardly Saxons and Austrians killing or kidnapping him, FW, in order to make Fritz King after he converted to Catholicism, and raised his kids to think the Austrians would love nothing better than getting upstanding Prostant princes in their hands to in order to convert them and would pay any price for this, it must have confused even Fritz himself when he tried the "hey, how about I marry an Archduchess" post 1730 and just got a HELL NO! from Grumbkow, Seckendorff and Eugene.)
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
FW suspected F1 of wanting to sleep with SD! I don't think we've heard that story, before, [personal profile] selenak? Where does this Count Bothmar get his information? Or am I forgetting some gossipy sensationalism?
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters. (Remember, young SD also discussed some of her marriage trouble with Grandma Sophie of Hannover.) So that's definitely news/plain old invention. Not that I don't buy irrationally jealous FW, and of course F1 was the money spending glamour providing type of baroque prince whom SD presumably would have liked to have been married to... but he was also small, fragile and a much ridiculed by his contemporaries "hunchback", while young FW was in the best shape he'd ever be in his life. And F1 was defnitely not the type of monarch hitting it off with the ladies in general by using his power as a monarch to compensate for the lack of physical attractions; the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
AAAAAnd that's still leaving out F1 trying to get a spare to his heir on wife No.3 during FW's early marriage with SD, about which both FW and SD were miffed, and FW's devotion to the patriarchy and belief a father is always right. But anyway, my main argument for this story being a post facto invention is that if young FW, not a self restrained fellow, would have suspected his Dad of getting it on with his wife, he a) would have written and shouted to SD about it, and b) the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
Neat about Oglethorp, thank you.
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-20 11:39 pm (UTC)I thought this was the story in Protestant Germany and Switzerland, but I looked it up, and I was misremembering. It was the predestination I was thinking of:
Frederick began to receive fan-mail. A suspiciously named Sophie Sappho from Rougement in Switzerland wrote to the prince to tell him he was a martyr, 'a young, pious[!], shining hero … all Europe admires you'. The reference to the prince’s piety may have indicated that Sophie Sappho was a Swiss Calvinist. The Calvinists thought Frederick a hero because he would not give up his faith in predestination. Wolden thought the letter came from Prussia, however, and it naturally gave rise to fears that a party was forming behind the prince.
The [!] is [sic]: that's MacDonogh raising both eyebrows. :D
All the exaggarations/inventions about the conditions at Küstrin for either Fritz or Katte or both don't surprise me, though, Guy-Dickens also heard the tale of beardy, chained Fritz, and he was actually in the country.
Agreed!
No, we haven't heard it, because none of the letters between young SD and FW which Felis first brought to us mention anything like it, and in them FW's jealousy is a major topic. Nor do anyone else's letters.
Okay, good. I didn't remember it, and I *thought* it was the kind of thing I'd remember, but I've forgotten things before. Thank you for confirming this was the fake news I thought it was. And yeah, nobody in Britain (or later in France/Prussia; see Thiebault) had the first idea what FW was about.
the Saxon envoy at the time, our old friend Manteuffel, would have written about it to his boss in Dresden. That was just his kind of gossip to report.
Good point!
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Egmont
Date: 2024-11-24 06:25 am (UTC)!!
And a good example of fake news in the 18th century.
Heh. I guess so!
the one lady whom rumour called his mistress rumor also sniggered was only his mistress as a nod to convention, because a King ought to have one, whom he might not ever have had sex with.
Ha! Poor F1. (Though I guess possibly a nice gig for the lady, if true...)