Keith clearly thought it would be shameful to avoid a duel! Speaking of the hypocrisy, remember luzula telling us about the British navy court-martialing officers who didn't get into duels when they were supposed to, even though dueling was against the law?
Ha ha, I'm glad you came in to say that--I had the tab open and meant to do it...
To me it seems off that there would have been more social pressure to duel in the 19th century than in the 18th, but that is no doubt because I know more about British social norms, where dueling really declined in the turn of the 18th/19th century.
Dueling stuck around so long in Germany that even in the early 20th century, anyone who'd been to university [ETA: Or just those who were members of the upper classes? selenak?] had been basically required to acquire a dueling scar to prove their honor and courage. Academic fencing was different from "I need to fight you because you shamed me publicly," but it obviously grew out of that culture, which was alive and well in the nineteenth century.
When I learned this, it finally made sense out of one of my favorite books, a WWII historical novel I had first read in college, in which one of the German characters is so casually mentioned to have a dueling scar that I didn't originally understand why the author would be that casual about it. Nope, dueling scars were just a thing among the character's class! Nothing to see here, moving on.
But yes, the reason that was so confusing to me is that the practice of dueling died out much earlier in the British and American world!
Oh, one of the features of academic dueling that's always entertained me:
During the first half of the 19th century and some of the 18th century, students believed the character of a person could easily be judged by watching him fight with sharp blades under strict regulations. Academic fencing was more and more seen as a kind of personality training by showing countenance and fairness even in dangerous situations. Student corporations demanded their members fight at least one duel with sharp blades during their university time. The problem was that some peaceful students had nobody to offend them. The solution was a kind of formal insult that did not actually infringe honour, but was just seen as a challenge for fencing. The standard wording was dummer Junge (German for "stupid boy.")
Emphasis mine. :D If you're too nice to make enemies, how are we going to judge you?!
There's a movie someone recced to me which I've been wanting to see some day, which is called The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, which apparently starts with a British army officer having to duel with a German officer in the beginning of the 20th century.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-01 11:57 am (UTC)Ha ha, I'm glad you came in to say that--I had the tab open and meant to do it...
To me it seems off that there would have been more social pressure to duel in the 19th century than in the 18th, but that is no doubt because I know more about British social norms, where dueling really declined in the turn of the 18th/19th century.
Dueling
Date: 2025-01-01 01:04 pm (UTC)When I learned this, it finally made sense out of one of my favorite books, a WWII historical novel I had first read in college, in which one of the German characters is so casually mentioned to have a dueling scar that I didn't originally understand why the author would be that casual about it. Nope, dueling scars were just a thing among the character's class! Nothing to see here, moving on.
But yes, the reason that was so confusing to me is that the practice of dueling died out much earlier in the British and American world!
Oh, one of the features of academic dueling that's always entertained me:
During the first half of the 19th century and some of the 18th century, students believed the character of a person could easily be judged by watching him fight with sharp blades under strict regulations. Academic fencing was more and more seen as a kind of personality training by showing countenance and fairness even in dangerous situations. Student corporations demanded their members fight at least one duel with sharp blades during their university time. The problem was that some peaceful students had nobody to offend them. The solution was a kind of formal insult that did not actually infringe honour, but was just seen as a challenge for fencing. The standard wording was dummer Junge (German for "stupid boy.")
Emphasis mine. :D If you're too nice to make enemies, how are we going to judge you?!
Re: Dueling
Date: 2025-01-01 06:45 pm (UTC)There's a movie someone recced to me which I've been wanting to see some day, which is called The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, which apparently starts with a British army officer having to duel with a German officer in the beginning of the 20th century.