Found out a bit more about this illegitimate daughter thanks to an article I received today via ILL, which I may or may not find time to write up, but I had to share this:
The author (in 1925) argued that Amalie and Trenck can't have had an affair, on the grounds that "Lehndorff, der Allwissende," knows nothing about it.
I mean, that was our reasoning for Fredersdorf's dismissal for embezzlement (or lack thereof)! But I had to laugh at "Lehndorff, der Allwissende." (This author gets very excitable in his article, an exclamation point in almost every paragraph.)
We can't all be "der Einzige", but you achieved "der Allwissende" status, Lehndorff! Not bad, not bad.
LOL. And true! I mean, he could have known more about the Katte family if not for his issues, but other than that, Lehndorff always delivers with the gossip. Including lots of rumours about Amalie, which include her dissecting corpses of children which she then burns in her fireplace (which he cites as an example of a very silly rumour). If he has heard that but nothing about Trenck, chances are there was nothing to hear about Trenck.
If I didn’t have three Lehndorff icons already, I would create a „Lehndorff der Allwissende“ icon.
I was wondering where the claim that Trenck and Amalie were the parents of Amalie Schönhausen came from. Apparently it's *not* from Trenck; some early 20th century member of Amalie's husband's family (the Herlyns) was doing the family history, and he went and talked to an old pastor in the church where Amalie got married. The pastor told Herlyn a story that he originally thought was the pastor spinning tall tales, but then Herlyn did more research and became convinced!
He published in 1914 and 1920, and in 1922, a local historian, John Gechter, elaborated on his case in an issue of a local genealogical magazine.
"Hogwash!" said one Stephan von Stradonitz, writing in that same magazine in 1925. A year later, in his book on the documentary sources relating to Trenck's life that Selena read for us, Volz agreed.
Herlyn: Amalia was 32 when she married in 1769, so she was born around 1738.
Stradonitz: I.e., she was born in 1737, when Amalie was 13 and Trenck 11!
Mildred: And your claim that Fritz was king when this happened is extra suspect, Herlyn!
Herlyn: A friend of Fritz's, one Karl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, was responsible for bringing her to East Frisia and taking care of her in her old age. I have here a document in which he allows her to live on his estate rent-free.
Stradonitz: You idiot! Fritz's Keith friends were James the Field Marshal and George the Earl Marischal. Peter, his childhood friend, was veeeery very distantly related. This Karl Ernst Reinhard, I think was Peter's son, but in any case was more closely related to Peter than to the other two. He was way too young to have brought her anywhere in 1738, and he was certainly no friend of Fritz's.
Mildred: Wow, it's so weird to see people not knowing things I take for granted.
Herlyn: She used the royal arms on her seal!
Stradonitz: That's not the Prussian crown! That's just a crown, which doesn't signify anything. If you want to look for an illegitimate ancestry, look in East Frisia and the vicinity, where she married, lived, and died, and look for an obscure noble family that has this coat of arms.
Mildred: You're both wrong! I know from Wikipedia and also the Knyphausen family papers that she used the Ilgen family coat of arms, i.e. her alleged mother's, so I bet this is a description of the Ilgen family arms.
Wikipedia: *conveniently shows a picture of the Ilgen arms that exactly matches Herlyn's and Stradonitz's descriptions of Amalia's*
Mildred: In general, none of you seem to know anything about her alleged Knyphausen ancestry.
In fact, I know very little about what has been said about her Knyphausen ancestry in the historical literature, other than what I found in the Knyphausen papers where they're freaking out about her pressuring them into giving her money. I know there's more material on her in the archives that I'm planning to request, but I also would like to know what's been published so I can figure out what I may have to contribute that's new information, as opposed to already out there.
In any case, I have answered my question about whether Trenck was maybe claiming to be her father in order to do the Knyphausens a favor by weakening her case to be related to them: he never claimed to be her father. I guess unless he did and Stradonitz just didn't know about it! But unlike the relationship with Amalie, it's not in the memoirs. I also didn't see her mentioned in his letters to Hertzberg, which I've done a quick skim through.
Based on that quick skim, he's writing for the usual reason: money, money, money. I see the word "pension" a lot. I think Trenck wants a pension from Fritz? (But hold on commenting on this until I've had a chance to read properly.) But there are also hints that he's been up to his usual entertaining shenanigans, so time--sleep, really--permitting, I'd like to decipher and translate or summarize some of those letters for salon.
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Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-02-18 10:57 pm (UTC)The author (in 1925) argued that Amalie and Trenck can't have had an affair, on the grounds that "Lehndorff, der Allwissende," knows nothing about it.
I mean, that was our reasoning for Fredersdorf's dismissal for embezzlement (or lack thereof)! But I had to laugh at "Lehndorff, der Allwissende." (This author gets very excitable in his article, an exclamation point in almost every paragraph.)
We can't all be "der Einzige", but you achieved "der Allwissende" status, Lehndorff! Not bad, not bad.
Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-02-19 06:23 pm (UTC)If I didn’t have three Lehndorff icons already, I would create a „Lehndorff der Allwissende“ icon.
Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-02-20 02:03 pm (UTC)I was wondering where the claim that Trenck and Amalie were the parents of Amalie Schönhausen came from. Apparently it's *not* from Trenck; some early 20th century member of Amalie's husband's family (the Herlyns) was doing the family history, and he went and talked to an old pastor in the church where Amalie got married. The pastor told Herlyn a story that he originally thought was the pastor spinning tall tales, but then Herlyn did more research and became convinced!
He published in 1914 and 1920, and in 1922, a local historian, John Gechter, elaborated on his case in an issue of a local genealogical magazine.
"Hogwash!" said one Stephan von Stradonitz, writing in that same magazine in 1925. A year later, in his book on the documentary sources relating to Trenck's life that Selena read for us, Volz agreed.
Herlyn: Amalia was 32 when she married in 1769, so she was born around 1738.
Stradonitz: I.e., she was born in 1737, when Amalie was 13 and Trenck 11!
Mildred: And your claim that Fritz was king when this happened is extra suspect, Herlyn!
Herlyn: A friend of Fritz's, one Karl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, was responsible for bringing her to East Frisia and taking care of her in her old age. I have here a document in which he allows her to live on his estate rent-free.
Stradonitz: You idiot! Fritz's Keith friends were James the Field Marshal and George the Earl Marischal. Peter, his childhood friend, was veeeery very distantly related. This Karl Ernst Reinhard, I think was Peter's son, but in any case was more closely related to Peter than to the other two. He was way too young to have brought her anywhere in 1738, and he was certainly no friend of Fritz's.
Mildred: Wow, it's so weird to see people not knowing things I take for granted.
Herlyn: She used the royal arms on her seal!
Stradonitz: That's not the Prussian crown! That's just a crown, which doesn't signify anything. If you want to look for an illegitimate ancestry, look in East Frisia and the vicinity, where she married, lived, and died, and look for an obscure noble family that has this coat of arms.
Mildred: You're both wrong! I know from Wikipedia and also the Knyphausen family papers that she used the Ilgen family coat of arms, i.e. her alleged mother's, so I bet this is a description of the Ilgen family arms.
Wikipedia: *conveniently shows a picture of the Ilgen arms that exactly matches Herlyn's and Stradonitz's descriptions of Amalia's*
Mildred: In general, none of you seem to know anything about her alleged Knyphausen ancestry.
In fact, I know very little about what has been said about her Knyphausen ancestry in the historical literature, other than what I found in the Knyphausen papers where they're freaking out about her pressuring them into giving her money. I know there's more material on her in the archives that I'm planning to request, but I also would like to know what's been published so I can figure out what I may have to contribute that's new information, as opposed to already out there.
In any case, I have answered my question about whether Trenck was maybe claiming to be her father in order to do the Knyphausens a favor by weakening her case to be related to them: he never claimed to be her father. I guess unless he did and Stradonitz just didn't know about it! But unlike the relationship with Amalie, it's not in the memoirs. I also didn't see her mentioned in his letters to Hertzberg, which I've done a quick skim through.
Based on that quick skim, he's writing for the usual reason: money, money, money. I see the word "pension" a lot. I think Trenck wants a pension from Fritz? (But hold on commenting on this until I've had a chance to read properly.) But there are also hints that he's been up to his usual entertaining shenanigans, so time--sleep, really--permitting, I'd like to decipher and translate or summarize some of those letters for salon.
Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-09 03:16 am (UTC)