Remember when Lehndorff said Peter had English manners, but his natural courtesy meant that he didn't cause offense? And I asked what "English manners" meant, and Selena pointed out another entry in which Lehndorff wrote about an English visitor that he was "somewhat thoughtless and betraying the manner of a true Englishman, which doesn't always correspond to the studied politenesses that 'we' [Germans] place so much stock in." And the example Lehndorff gave was that he had referred to the Danish princes as "nice boys."
And Formey, in his eulogy of Peter, wrote that "There was an air of frankness and cordiality in his manner, much preferable to all the brilliant imposture of vain politeness."
I went looking for an actual source on what "English manners" meant, found this pretty interesting book, and discovered a Frenchman in 1862 saying that his host had greeted him with "that English frankness and cordiality which I prefer to all the ceremonies of politeness."
I conclude that Formey was using a cliche that would have coded as English to his readers. I checked the original French in both cases, btw, and it is the same word choice:
Il régnait un air de franchise de cordialité dans ses manières, fort préférable à tout le brillant imposteur d'une vaine politesse.
and
Il me tendit en effet la main avec cette franchise et cette cordialité anglaises que je préfère à toutes les cérémonies de la politesse.
This is going in the biography!
I now kind of wonder what the original of "einstudierten" in Lehndorff's "einstudierten Höflichkeiten" was, assuming "Höflichkeiten" is a translation of "politesse."
Anyway, I'm always interested when something I thought was the author's own choice of words turns up somewhere else, like that time I found the language of the Declaration of Arbroath (Scotland, 1320) echoed Otto von Northeim's speech (Germany, 1073) too closely to be a coincidence.
I've started the G3 biography and the author reminds us that everyone is emo in the 18th century so the whole "my dearest friend!" and "OMG, am crushed, want to die!" effusive style of everyone and their valet in their correspondances always has to be taken with a pinch of salt. (And happens before the 19th century decided that manly men don't cry.) For the 18th century, it might be worth adding that it was an English hobby to poke fun at foreign formality of manners as a political game, i.e. meant either anti-French or anti-(Hannover)German, depending whom they're describing and who the enemy of the day is. See also the Liliputians as a satire on (Hannover)Germans and so forth. Mind you, the irony is, talking of national stereotypes, that while the overly mannered French courtier certainly shows up in German fiction as well (18th century or later), I don't think I've come across Brits renowned for being particularly informal before salon and reading Lehndorff etc., because by the 19th century, if a stereotyped English person shows up they're bound to be incredibly formal and stiff lipped as well. Not in the 18th century for. The most memorable fictional Brit in an 18th century bit of fiction is probably Lady Milford from Kabale und Liebe, and she's the Duke's mistress who wants an exit via marriage to our hero (who is in love with someone else).
(Wihelmine has her own opinions on English manners, but those are unique to her circumstances, i.e. being endlessly drilled and taught with the sole aim to find favour in front of English eyes as a child and being increasingly resentful about it, so I don't think she describes English manners as informal in her memoirs. She's a bit satiric about their haughtiness and how the highest compliment they can pay you being that you're just like an Englishwoman. But that's all SD's fault.)
because by the 19th century, if a stereotyped English person shows up they're bound to be incredibly formal and stiff lipped as well.
Yeah, I also came across the following passage in my research on English manners. It's circa 1717, right after Hanoverian G1 lands on the throne and brings some Germans with him, and xenophobia is in full swing:
If the German presence furthered the process of English self-definition, the Hanoverians had their own views on the identity and character of their hosts. Friedrich Wilhelm von der Schulenburg, who served the King as Kammerherr for the first five years of his reign, was a particularly close and wry observer of the English scene. What stands out in his accounts is the perceived impulsiveness and emotionalism of his hosts. The John-Bull-like stolidity and reserve of later myth were not much in evidence. Schulenburg repeatedly refers to ‘la chaleur angloise’; he found James Stanhope, the chief minister, particularly hot-headed. He also considered the English congenitally fickle. He believed that the ‘humour of the English’ was such that ‘one cannot count on them from one day to another’. On another occasion, when discussing the Earl of Sunderland, he refers once again to ‘the inconstancy of the English, on whom one cannot count from one day to the next’. Later he attributed the English taste for masques to their ‘changeante’ disposition. This picture of a garrulous and fickle English elite casts an interesting light on widespread contemporary English perceptions of English taciturnity and stolidity.
Perfidious Albion is consistent throughout the ages, though!
(Wihelmine has her own opinions on English manners, but those are unique to her circumstances, i.e. being endlessly drilled and taught with the sole aim to find favour in front of English eyes as a child and being increasingly resentful about it, so I don't think she describes English manners as informal in her memoirs. She's a bit satiric about their haughtiness and how the highest compliment they can pay you being that you're just like an Englishwoman. But that's all SD's fault.)
I conclude that Formey was using a cliche that would have coded as English to his readers. I checked the original French in both cases, btw, and it is the same word choice:
Il régnait un air de franchise de cordialité dans ses manières, fort préférable à tout le brillant imposteur d'une vaine politesse.
and
Il me tendit en effet la main avec cette franchise et cette cordialité anglaises que je préfère à toutes les cérémonies de la politesse.
I note that when Karl's uncle complains about him, he complains about his lack of "cordialité et franchise." Like "honnête homme" (how Hertzberg, I think? describes Karl), definitely traits they wanted you to exhibit in the 18th century.
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timeasmymeasure
English manners
Date: 2025-01-02 02:03 pm (UTC)Remember when Lehndorff said Peter had English manners, but his natural courtesy meant that he didn't cause offense? And I asked what "English manners" meant, and Selena pointed out another entry in which Lehndorff wrote about an English visitor that he was "somewhat thoughtless and betraying the manner of a true Englishman, which doesn't always correspond to the studied politenesses that 'we' [Germans] place so much stock in." And the example Lehndorff gave was that he had referred to the Danish princes as "nice boys."
And Formey, in his eulogy of Peter, wrote that "There was an air of frankness and cordiality in his manner, much preferable to all the brilliant imposture of vain politeness."
I went looking for an actual source on what "English manners" meant, found this pretty interesting book, and discovered a Frenchman in 1862 saying that his host had greeted him with "that English frankness and cordiality which I prefer to all the ceremonies of politeness."
I conclude that Formey was using a cliche that would have coded as English to his readers. I checked the original French in both cases, btw, and it is the same word choice:
Il régnait un air de franchise de cordialité dans ses manières, fort préférable à tout le brillant imposteur d'une vaine politesse.
and
Il me tendit en effet la main avec cette franchise et cette cordialité anglaises que je préfère à toutes les cérémonies de la politesse.
This is going in the biography!
I now kind of wonder what the original of "einstudierten" in Lehndorff's "einstudierten Höflichkeiten" was, assuming "Höflichkeiten" is a translation of "politesse."
Anyway, I'm always interested when something I thought was the author's own choice of words turns up somewhere else, like that time I found the language of the Declaration of Arbroath (Scotland, 1320) echoed Otto von Northeim's speech (Germany, 1073) too closely to be a coincidence.
Re: English manners
Date: 2025-01-02 02:32 pm (UTC)(Wihelmine has her own opinions on English manners, but those are unique to her circumstances, i.e. being endlessly drilled and taught with the sole aim to find favour in front of English eyes as a child and being increasingly resentful about it, so I don't think she describes English manners as informal in her memoirs. She's a bit satiric about their haughtiness and how the highest compliment they can pay you being that you're just like an Englishwoman. But that's all SD's fault.)
Re: English manners
Date: 2025-01-02 02:36 pm (UTC)Yeah, I also came across the following passage in my research on English manners. It's circa 1717, right after Hanoverian G1 lands on the throne and brings some Germans with him, and xenophobia is in full swing:
If the German presence furthered the process of English self-definition, the Hanoverians had their own views on the identity and character of their hosts. Friedrich Wilhelm von der Schulenburg, who served the King as Kammerherr for the first five years of his reign, was a particularly close and wry observer of the English scene. What stands out in his accounts is the perceived impulsiveness and emotionalism of his hosts. The John-Bull-like stolidity and reserve of later myth were not much in evidence. Schulenburg repeatedly refers to ‘la chaleur angloise’; he found James Stanhope, the chief minister, particularly hot-headed. He also considered the English congenitally fickle. He believed that the ‘humour of the English’ was such that ‘one cannot count on them from one day to another’. On another occasion, when discussing the Earl of Sunderland, he refers once again to ‘the inconstancy of the English, on whom one cannot count from one day to the next’. Later he attributed the English taste for masques to their ‘changeante’ disposition. This picture of a garrulous and fickle English elite casts an interesting light on widespread contemporary English perceptions of English taciturnity and stolidity.
Perfidious Albion is consistent throughout the ages, though!
Re: English manners
Date: 2025-01-05 06:02 am (UTC)(Wihelmine has her own opinions on English manners, but those are unique to her circumstances, i.e. being endlessly drilled and taught with the sole aim to find favour in front of English eyes as a child and being increasingly resentful about it, so I don't think she describes English manners as informal in her memoirs. She's a bit satiric about their haughtiness and how the highest compliment they can pay you being that you're just like an Englishwoman. But that's all SD's fault.)
:( Poor Wilhelmine.
Re: English manners
Date: 2025-01-09 02:02 pm (UTC)Il régnait un air de franchise de cordialité dans ses manières, fort préférable à tout le brillant imposteur d'une vaine politesse.
and
Il me tendit en effet la main avec cette franchise et cette cordialité anglaises que je préfère à toutes les cérémonies de la politesse.
I note that when Karl's uncle complains about him, he complains about his lack of "cordialité et franchise." Like "honnête homme" (how Hertzberg, I think? describes Karl), definitely traits they wanted you to exhibit in the 18th century.