The late attempt of the Prince Royal of Prussia to make his escape has occasioned great noise here, the public being persuaded that it was on account of his being pressed to turn Papist in order to be married to an archduchess.
Now what I want to know is: where, at this point, is this story coming from? I mean, since it's untrue, there must have been a specific point of origin. I would imagine gossip in Protestant The Hague, except people at The Hague are familiar enough with the Hohenzollern - who lest we forget still call themselves "Prince of Orange" among their titles, are in laws, and FW specifically did visit the country repeatedly - to be aware that FW is an ill-tempered, forcible recruiting mean tyrant, but he's also hardcore Protestant and loathes the Church of Rome. This is just not a natural explanation. So my current suspicion is that the origin is actually Fritz via Katte, because Katte talked to Lövenörn and Guy-Dickens, and this is how the story got into circulation among the British aristocracy/diplomatic circles.
My last letters from Berlin inform me that the King of Prussia had beaten the Princess Royal, his daughter, most unmercifully--dragged her about the room by the hair, kicking her in the belly and breast, till her cries alarmed the officer of the guards, who came in.
And from there it gets to almost beating her blind (Egmont) or throwing her out of the window (Voltaire). This said, Chesterfield's version is somewhat close to how Wilhelmine herself describes the incident (hair dragging, then beating), minutes "the officers of the guard" where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead. As opposed to the "Fritz fled because he was supposed to convert and marry MT" story, you can see here the true core (FW getting physically violent towards Wilhemine when he returned in August) behind all the embellishments added by rumor.
BTW, it's also sad and telling about the time that bad treatment by FW WITHOUT any pressure to convert is evidently not thought a good enough reason for Fritz to flee by the Brits.
Chesterfield is presumably thinking that Fritz will take his revenge when he becomes king? We'll never know how Fritz would have treated Grumkow, who died just in time.
I read it as Chesterfield implying that Grumbkow the villain would be an utter idiot if he lets Fritz live given he's given Fritz all the reason to hate him, and that he, Chesterfield, is afraid that Grumbkow will engineer Fritz' death one way or the other to prevent future Fritzian revenge.
This reminds me of how I theorized that if Disney ever does a version of the Crown Prince Fritz story, they'll make Grumbkow and Seckendorff into the villains instead of FW so FW and Fritz can have a heartfelt honest reconciliation at the end of the movie. It's of course completley misreading Grumbkow's (and Seckendorff's) agenda and roles. Yes, they're (at this point) anti British and were only too happy to do their part in foiling the British marriage project, not least because Grumbkow gets Austrian money and Seckendorff, representing Team Habsburg, has good reason not to want a Hannover-Prussia-England superstate at some point in the future. But in the best Mafia style, none of this is personal and anti-Fritz, it's business, and in fact Grumbkow right then when Chesterfield suspects him is doing his best to make nice with Fritz, dispensing advice on how to deal with FW, so the currently good Austria-Prussia relations don't end the moment FW breathes his last.
Now, given Grumbkow's advice contains such gems as "distance yourself somewhat from your sister" (causing long term havoc in that relationship) as well as the more useful "show some interest in your other siblings, pointedly your brothers, that will please your father", I'm not saying he was Mr. Misunderstood Goodness, but since we do have all the Seckendorff-Eugene letters from the late 1720s and early 1730s and later the Fritz-Grumbkow letters from the early 1730s, we do actually know Grumbkow and Seckendorff always assumed Fritz would be the next King. There was never any attempt to stop that from happening. There were all the attempts of ensuring he would be a King following the same political allignments as FW was right then, and this contributed to poisoning the atmosphere and heating up the marital warfare between SD and FW, so Fritz (and Wilhelmine) loathing them both regardless comes as no surprise. As to what Fritz would have done if Grumbkow hadn't died at just the right moment -
Seckendorff, from Magdeburg Fortress: Is that even a question?
Self: Yes, it is. Fritz used the opportunity the 7 Years War gave him to have you arrested and imprisoned, but that opportunity wasn't available for Grumbkow in 1740.
Seckendorff: Pfff. He'd have created it. He'd have fired him from the council first, because as opposed to the Old Dessauer, Grumbkow wasn't popular with the army, no one would have mourned for him. And then, once Silesia 1 had started, he'd have drummed up a charge to arrest him as an Austrian spy. I know whereof I speak!
I can guess the extraordinary document is the unpunctuated, barely coherent "If there were 100,000 such Kattes I'd make all their heads roll," but I don't think I've ever seen G2's extremely strong and high-spirited response!
Me neither. Why I do wonder whether it wasn't: "Fuck you, Cousin, if I don't get to kill my son Fritz, I don't see why you should get to kill yours!"
The famous Chesterfield quote is great, but you'd think that FW's obsession around the doctrine of Predestination would have clued the Brits in to the fact that this wasn't a guy taking his religion lightly.
Now what I want to know is: where, at this point, is this story coming from? I mean, since it's untrue, there must have been a specific point of origin
I read somewhere recently that it came from Fritz and Katte, but one, I don't remember where (I did a survey of every book on Fritz on the UCLA library shelves 3 weeks ago), two, it sounded like speculation. But like you, I think it makes sense.
where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead.
And she's not the only account to give credit to the lady in waiting.
BTW, it's also sad and telling about the time that bad treatment by FW WITHOUT any pressure to convert is evidently not thought a good enough reason for Fritz to flee by the Brits.
Or Katte, apparently! Well, admittedly Katte was being asked to get involved himself, but still. The thread of Catholicism is apparently what pushed him over the edge!
And then, once Silesia 1 had started, he'd have drummed up a charge to arrest him as an Austrian spy. I know whereof I speak!
Lol!
Me neither. Why I do wonder whether it wasn't: "Fuck you, Cousin, if I don't get to kill my son Fritz, I don't see why you should get to kill yours!"
Hahaha, omg. If I weren't so busy, I'd be tempted to see if I could track this down. I've put it on my Trello todo list. Maybe it'll get done.
The famous Chesterfield quote is great, but you'd think that FW's obsession around the doctrine of Predestination would have clued the Brits in to the fact that this wasn't a guy taking his religion lightly.
Yeah, but notice this comes from Chesterfield, who also thinks it's absurd that anyone believes that FW would beat his son into converting to Catholicism. It's Egmont who thinks that, and we have no evidence that he knew about the predestination thing!
(gosh, I am pretty snowed under until Christmas what with music and Yuletide, but all this fascinating stuff keeps coming into my inbox! :P )
So my current suspicion is that the origin is actually Fritz via Katte, because Katte talked to Lövenörn and Guy-Dickens
Ohhhh that makes sense! Gosh.
This said, Chesterfield's version is somewhat close to how Wilhelmine herself describes the incident (hair dragging, then beating), minutes "the officers of the guard" where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead.
:( Yeah, I noticed this was close to Wilhelmine's version! :(
This reminds me of how I theorized that if Disney ever does a version of the Crown Prince Fritz story, they'll make Grumbkow and Seckendorff into the villains instead of FW so FW and Fritz can have a heartfelt honest reconciliation at the end of the movie. It's of course completley misreading Grumbkow's (and Seckendorff's) agenda and roles.
Ha, I remember that -- mostly because I agreed, Disney would so do that, and have FW and Fritz reconcile :P
But in the best Mafia style, none of this is personal and anti-Fritz, it's business, and in fact Grumbkow right then when Chesterfield suspects him is doing his best to make nice with Fritz, dispensing advice on how to deal with FW, so the currently good Austria-Prussia relations don't end the moment FW breathes his last.
I find this rather charming, in a weird sort of way, about Grumbkow.
There were all the attempts of ensuring he would be a King following the same political allignments as FW was right then, and this contributed to poisoning the atmosphere and heating up the marital warfare between SD and FW, so Fritz (and Wilhelmine) loathing them both regardless comes as no surprise.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Chesterfield
Date: 2024-11-17 11:24 am (UTC)Now what I want to know is: where, at this point, is this story coming from? I mean, since it's untrue, there must have been a specific point of origin. I would imagine gossip in Protestant The Hague, except people at The Hague are familiar enough with the Hohenzollern - who lest we forget still call themselves "Prince of Orange" among their titles, are in laws, and FW specifically did visit the country repeatedly - to be aware that FW is an ill-tempered, forcible recruiting mean tyrant, but he's also hardcore Protestant and loathes the Church of Rome. This is just not a natural explanation. So my current suspicion is that the origin is actually Fritz via Katte, because Katte talked to Lövenörn and Guy-Dickens, and this is how the story got into circulation among the British aristocracy/diplomatic circles.
My last letters from Berlin inform me that the King of Prussia had beaten the Princess Royal, his daughter, most unmercifully--dragged her about the room by the hair, kicking her in the belly and breast, till her cries alarmed the officer of the guards, who came in.
And from there it gets to almost beating her blind (Egmont) or throwing her out of the window (Voltaire). This said, Chesterfield's version is somewhat close to how Wilhelmine herself describes the incident (hair dragging, then beating), minutes "the officers of the guard" where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead. As opposed to the "Fritz fled because he was supposed to convert and marry MT" story, you can see here the true core (FW getting physically violent towards Wilhemine when he returned in August) behind all the embellishments added by rumor.
BTW, it's also sad and telling about the time that bad treatment by FW WITHOUT any pressure to convert is evidently not thought a good enough reason for Fritz to flee by the Brits.
Chesterfield is presumably thinking that Fritz will take his revenge when he becomes king? We'll never know how Fritz would have treated Grumkow, who died just in time.
I read it as Chesterfield implying that Grumbkow the villain would be an utter idiot if he lets Fritz live given he's given Fritz all the reason to hate him, and that he, Chesterfield, is afraid that Grumbkow will engineer Fritz' death one way or the other to prevent future Fritzian revenge.
This reminds me of how I theorized that if Disney ever does a version of the Crown Prince Fritz story, they'll make Grumbkow and Seckendorff into the villains instead of FW so FW and Fritz can have a heartfelt honest reconciliation at the end of the movie. It's of course completley misreading Grumbkow's (and Seckendorff's) agenda and roles. Yes, they're (at this point) anti British and were only too happy to do their part in foiling the British marriage project, not least because Grumbkow gets Austrian money and Seckendorff, representing Team Habsburg, has good reason not to want a Hannover-Prussia-England superstate at some point in the future. But in the best Mafia style, none of this is personal and anti-Fritz, it's business, and in fact Grumbkow right then when Chesterfield suspects him is doing his best to make nice with Fritz, dispensing advice on how to deal with FW, so the currently good Austria-Prussia relations don't end the moment FW breathes his last.
Now, given Grumbkow's advice contains such gems as "distance yourself somewhat from your sister" (causing long term havoc in that relationship) as well as the more useful "show some interest in your other siblings, pointedly your brothers, that will please your father", I'm not saying he was Mr. Misunderstood Goodness, but since we do have all the Seckendorff-Eugene letters from the late 1720s and early 1730s and later the Fritz-Grumbkow letters from the early 1730s, we do actually know Grumbkow and Seckendorff always assumed Fritz would be the next King. There was never any attempt to stop that from happening. There were all the attempts of ensuring he would be a King following the same political allignments as FW was right then, and this contributed to poisoning the atmosphere and heating up the marital warfare between SD and FW, so Fritz (and Wilhelmine) loathing them both regardless comes as no surprise. As to what Fritz would have done if Grumbkow hadn't died at just the right moment -
Seckendorff, from Magdeburg Fortress: Is that even a question?
Self: Yes, it is. Fritz used the opportunity the 7 Years War gave him to have you arrested and imprisoned, but that opportunity wasn't available for Grumbkow in 1740.
Seckendorff: Pfff. He'd have created it. He'd have fired him from the council first, because as opposed to the Old Dessauer, Grumbkow wasn't popular with the army, no one would have mourned for him. And then, once Silesia 1 had started, he'd have drummed up a charge to arrest him as an Austrian spy. I know whereof I speak!
I can guess the extraordinary document is the unpunctuated, barely coherent "If there were 100,000 such Kattes I'd make all their heads roll," but I don't think I've ever seen G2's extremely strong and high-spirited response!
Me neither. Why I do wonder whether it wasn't: "Fuck you, Cousin, if I don't get to kill my son Fritz, I don't see why you should get to kill yours!"
The famous Chesterfield quote is great, but you'd think that FW's obsession around the doctrine of Predestination would have clued the Brits in to the fact that this wasn't a guy taking his religion lightly.
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Chesterfield
Date: 2024-11-21 12:08 am (UTC)I read somewhere recently that it came from Fritz and Katte, but one, I don't remember where (I did a survey of every book on Fritz on the UCLA library shelves 3 weeks ago), two, it sounded like speculation. But like you, I think it makes sense.
where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead.
And she's not the only account to give credit to the lady in waiting.
BTW, it's also sad and telling about the time that bad treatment by FW WITHOUT any pressure to convert is evidently not thought a good enough reason for Fritz to flee by the Brits.
Or Katte, apparently! Well, admittedly Katte was being asked to get involved himself, but still. The thread of Catholicism is apparently what pushed him over the edge!
And then, once Silesia 1 had started, he'd have drummed up a charge to arrest him as an Austrian spy. I know whereof I speak!
Lol!
Me neither. Why I do wonder whether it wasn't: "Fuck you, Cousin, if I don't get to kill my son Fritz, I don't see why you should get to kill yours!"
Hahaha, omg. If I weren't so busy, I'd be tempted to see if I could track this down. I've put it on my Trello todo list. Maybe it'll get done.
The famous Chesterfield quote is great, but you'd think that FW's obsession around the doctrine of Predestination would have clued the Brits in to the fact that this wasn't a guy taking his religion lightly.
Yeah, but notice this comes from Chesterfield, who also thinks it's absurd that anyone believes that FW would beat his son into converting to Catholicism. It's Egmont who thinks that, and we have no evidence that he knew about the predestination thing!
Re: 1730 in British rumors: Chesterfield
Date: 2024-11-24 06:12 am (UTC)So my current suspicion is that the origin is actually Fritz via Katte, because Katte talked to Lövenörn and Guy-Dickens
Ohhhh that makes sense! Gosh.
This said, Chesterfield's version is somewhat close to how Wilhelmine herself describes the incident (hair dragging, then beating), minutes "the officers of the guard" where she gives credit to the heroic lady in waiting standing up to FW instead.
:( Yeah, I noticed this was close to Wilhelmine's version! :(
This reminds me of how I theorized that if Disney ever does a version of the Crown Prince Fritz story, they'll make Grumbkow and Seckendorff into the villains instead of FW so FW and Fritz can have a heartfelt honest reconciliation at the end of the movie. It's of course completley misreading Grumbkow's (and Seckendorff's) agenda and roles.
Ha, I remember that -- mostly because I agreed, Disney would so do that, and have FW and Fritz reconcile :P
But in the best Mafia style, none of this is personal and anti-Fritz, it's business, and in fact Grumbkow right then when Chesterfield suspects him is doing his best to make nice with Fritz, dispensing advice on how to deal with FW, so the currently good Austria-Prussia relations don't end the moment FW breathes his last.
I find this rather charming, in a weird sort of way, about Grumbkow.
There were all the attempts of ensuring he would be a King following the same political allignments as FW was right then, and this contributed to poisoning the atmosphere and heating up the marital warfare between SD and FW, so Fritz (and Wilhelmine) loathing them both regardless comes as no surprise.
Heh, whoops.