Karl, 1779 or 1780, 1 or 2 years post-duel, being written about by one of his Knyphausen uncles or cousins, I think (I hate undated, unsigned letters):
Madame de Keith is here with her princess and complains a lot about the inconvenience and that there is no happiness in the world. Her son has also completely withdrawn from society to a small neighborhood, sees no one except his paintings and a few painters, almost always refuses me when I ask him to, and thinks a lot about buying land without actually doing so. The King has just appointed a certain young Chambrier of Neufchatel to go to Turin in his place.
This one is signed but hard to read; I think it's his mother's sister's husband Count Rothenburg, though if so, he's spelling it "Rottenberg" (so it might be Hertzberg, although it looks very different from his normal signature).
Her son, on his return from Turin, withdrew from the world, went/goes about his little job a bit, and does not talk about getting married.
And then something that I think is a prediction that this branch of the family will die out. And by "this branch" I think he means Oriane and all of her siblings. Which is impressive, considering there are 8 of them. But I can find no evidence that any of them had children (or at least sons) except Oriane and Peter, and their line died out with Karl.
In 1790, a book called "La Prusse litteraire" that we had found years ago was published, which said that Karl lived retired from the world and was not married. Now we find his family commenting on these fact 10 years before. I strongly suspected already, and now I suspect even more, that the author of that book was unable to reach Karl for comment and had to find out what he was up to from his family. If he's refusing to see family in 1780, he's almost certainly refusing to see random authors for interviews in 1790.
(I will get back to writing up yesterday's Tido letters soon; right now I'm just deciphering new letters. I realize Tido is way more interesting. ;))
And then something that I think is a prediction that this branch of the family will die out. And by "this branch" I think he means Oriane and all of her siblings. Which is impressive, considering there are 8 of them. But I can find no evidence that any of them had children (or at least sons) except Oriane and Peter, and their line died out with Karl.
:/
If he's refusing to see family in 1780, he's almost certainly refusing to see random authors for interviews in 1790.
Huh. I suppose without any more evidence there's no way to find out why.
Depression caused by humiliation? I'm going to compare it to Peter never leaving his room in Dublin, just reading books all the time. Yes, he was in hiding, but you get the impression from his memoirs that he also just *really* wanted to read books all day. You likewise get the impression from all these letters that Karl was something of an introvert. Maybe a clinically depressed one, idk! But later on, post 1790s, they will say he devoted himself to the sciences, which is very much something Peter was doing.
Ha. Well, I doubt whether this is *why*, but it may be relevant:
One of Karl's uncles wrote to him in 1768 telling him to enjoy his liberty and be like him, enjoy a moderate lifestyle and don't get caught up in chasing positions. That is what a wise man does.
"Please don't communicate this to your mother or to [your aunt who's married to Hertzberg], they will think I'm steering you away from the ambition to which your state and above all your age inspire you."
But when he thinks of his father and paternal grandfather, both of whom had a reputation for competence and probity, and died chagrined in disgrace, and his uncle who lived on his estates and died happy, and his uncle's son who is now doing the same thing, he thinks the latter is the better example to follow.
Well, the moderate lifestyle, not climbing the ladder, is definitely what Karl did after getting burned in Turin!
That said, I don't think "And isolate yourself and refuse to see your family" was part of the advice, so maybe he was *also* clinically depressed. Or maybe he was just feeling pressured to climb the ladder!
ETA: Oh, and I meant to add that I recently found, hunting through the archive catalogues, that just as Oriane's father was dismissed in 1730 in connection with Fritz's escape attempt, *his* father got fired too:
The transformation of the old, casual, natural economy administration system, which hardly produced any surpluses, into a modern monetary lease system took place very slowly. Milestones in this development were the founding of the Office Chamber in 1615 and the establishment of the Secret Court Chamber, a collegial central authority for the domain administration in all provinces in 1689, whose intellectual originator was Dodo Baron von Knyphausen. However, this authority soon fell into disrepair again, as its president, Knyphausen, was involved in the downfall of Minister von Danckelmann. It was replaced by the Upper Domain Directorate under the leadership of the Chief Treasurer Count Kolbe Wartenberg, who irresponsibly saw the domains as an inexhaustible source of finance without doing anything to maintain them.
Huh! I guess I can imagine someone who is naturally introverted taking the advice to its natural limit and isolating himself... maybe? Thanks for the informed guesses!
So what's interesting is that I *think* this is the same uncle who actually didn't like him. Now, they hadn't had their run-in in Paris yet, but the guy did say he'd *never* liked this nephew, ever since his first impression of him. That doesn't mean he can't correspond with him, of course, but the letter generally reads like he's practically begging Keith to write to him as often as he can. It doesn't read like a formulaic politeness, it reads like a plea: "Nobody in the family ever writes to me! I have no news! Everybody is too busy for me. Please make time to write to me!"
I thiiink he's living/staying in Paris, and dependent on letters for news from back home.
Well, maybe he had a bad first impression but was willing to give him a chance, but then Karl blew it with the (alleged--maybe Karl's side of the story is different) letter-reading a couple years later.
Of course, it's also possible they haven't properly met as adults yet; that this guy moved to Paris before Karl became an adult, and Karl's trip to France was the first real impression this particular uncle got of him.
I need to work out the chronology of these people better, including some handwriting comparison to see who's who. My kingdom for more hours in the day!
Ah, interesting! I just found Hertzberg, back in 1764, saying that young Karl hardly ever leaves his house or his aunts'. There's more on his career ambitions, but I'll have to mark this letter to come back to finish transcribing.
Sadly, brother Friedrich is dying. In May, Hertzberg wrote that he was spitting blood, so much that his life was in danger. Now it's June and he's no longer coughing blood, but suffering from so much languor that Hertzberg doesn't think he'll recover (he's correct, the boy has 5 more months to live).
Hertzberg says much the same thing as when he eulogizes Friedrich, but with more compare and contrast with the older brother:
It is a pity, because he is a young man, who had a very handsome face, a lot of spirit and of achivements. The elder has less vivacity, but he is very well accomplished in his studies, and is of an almost excessive sagesse, not going far from home or from his aunts'.
Now, I originally translated "sagesse" as "studiousness", but a little digging shows it can mean "good behavior", "quietness", or "modesty", so I'm now thinking it goes with "never leaves home" more than "accomplished in his studies." Of course, as I am living proof, these two things go together! So it's probably along the lines of "quiet, studious homebody, not the life of the party like his brother."
Incidentally, I think I can narrow down when Friedrich got sick: Hertzberg's last letter before he mentions Friedrich being sick dates to January, and in May, he says the last letter he received from his correspondent (I think Oriane's youngest brother, the modest-lifestyle non-diplomat one) was February 29th. So I think Friedrich fell sick sometime between January and May of 1764, and then he died in November 1764.
More details on the development of Karl's thoughts on what he wanted to do with his career when I have time!
(Also, I think Oriane is able to rent out rooms in the Jägerhof, contrary to what we thought back in early salon, but I could be wrong. I sight-read and didn't transcribe and translate the whole thing. So much to read, so little time!)
(Also, I think Oriane is able to rent out rooms in the Jägerhof, contrary to what we thought back in early salon, but I could be wrong. I sight-read and didn't transcribe and translate the whole thing. So much to read, so little time!)
Yes! She has been renting out the first floor to Hertzberg, for 500 units of currency (I hate abbreviations :P). According the address books, he moved there sometime between 1758 and 1760 (I don't see where he's living in 1759).
Also, Fritz only gave Oriane 2 weeks' notice to move out of the Jägerhof so he could found his bank.
This is good, because it's relevant to the stuff I put in about why Oriane and sons moved to the Jägerhof, her financial situation after Peter's death, etc. I *thought* she was renting space in it, I just couldn't prove it!
Oh, now Hertzberg is complaining that he, Madame de Keith, and...20 disabled hunters? are being thrown out to make way for some little banker merchants. (The class snobbery is rising off the page.)
He's in luck, he can rent a floor from the house of something for 600 (I think it's Reichstalers), and Madame de Keith is still without (tear and hole in the page).
1763: the Keith boys are home from university and looking for jobs. Per Hertzberg:
Madame de Keith says that she decided to go to court because she no longer had the means to support herself and to promote her sons. I proposed them as counsellors and secretaries of the embassies to Vienna and Paris; but I was told that they had no use for children.
Ha. In another letter, in 1764, he says the same thing, but this time specifies who did the telling: predictably, it was our sarcastic Fritz who said he had no use for children.
And then Hertzberg goes on to say that the Grand Directory proposed Karl as a refendarius (I think that's what Friedrich was when he died), but the final decision was that it wasn't a good fit, because Karl might join the military. Since that would be contrary to Karl's taste and constitution, Karl didn't know *what* he should do. Also his health was getting worse, and Hertzberg says that he fears that the numerous family will die out, "unless you or your brothers marry soon." Interesting that he uses the plural; Wikipedia gives me 3 living brothers at this point: Tido, who I didn't think was in the picture, so given that he's writing to one of the brothers, either Tido *is* in the picture and they know he hasn't married, or there's another brother.
Given that this is just after the 7 Years War, I can well believe no one wants young and untried personnel in the hot seats of France and Vienna. And it's ic for Fritz to phrase it like that.
BTW: Is this Hertzberg the same guy who later will prove Heinrich's doom in the reign of FW2?
Yes, same guy. There's a lot of Heinrich discussion in these letters that I might come back to someday, I just have limits on how much I can decipher at once. (I'm already behind on all my other projects because of how much deciphering I'm doing already!) I think most of the Heinrich discussion is because Dodo Heinrich, Oriane's envoy brother (sent to London during the Seven Years' War), according to Wikipedia, "enjoyed Heinrich's trust," and I see a lot of him spending time at Rheinsberg in these letters. Who knows, maybe there's gossip that we'll find out someday!
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-13 11:07 am (UTC)Madame de Keith is here with her princess and complains a lot about the inconvenience and that there is no happiness in the world. Her son has also completely withdrawn from society to a small neighborhood, sees no one except his paintings and a few painters, almost always refuses me when I ask him to, and thinks a lot about buying land without actually doing so. The King has just appointed a certain young Chambrier of Neufchatel to go to Turin in his place.
This one is signed but hard to read; I think it's his mother's sister's husband Count Rothenburg, though if so, he's spelling it "Rottenberg" (so it might be Hertzberg, although it looks very different from his normal signature).
Her son, on his return from Turin, withdrew from the world, went/goes about his little job a bit, and does not talk about getting married.
And then something that I think is a prediction that this branch of the family will die out. And by "this branch" I think he means Oriane and all of her siblings. Which is impressive, considering there are 8 of them. But I can find no evidence that any of them had children (or at least sons) except Oriane and Peter, and their line died out with Karl.
In 1790, a book called "La Prusse litteraire" that we had found years ago was published, which said that Karl lived retired from the world and was not married. Now we find his family commenting on these fact 10 years before. I strongly suspected already, and now I suspect even more, that the author of that book was unable to reach Karl for comment and had to find out what he was up to from his family. If he's refusing to see family in 1780, he's almost certainly refusing to see random authors for interviews in 1790.
(I will get back to writing up yesterday's Tido letters soon; right now I'm just deciphering new letters. I realize Tido is way more interesting. ;))
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-15 05:58 am (UTC):/
If he's refusing to see family in 1780, he's almost certainly refusing to see random authors for interviews in 1790.
Huh. I suppose without any more evidence there's no way to find out why.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-15 10:51 am (UTC)Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-17 11:31 pm (UTC)One of Karl's uncles wrote to him in 1768 telling him to enjoy his liberty and be like him, enjoy a moderate lifestyle and don't get caught up in chasing positions. That is what a wise man does.
"Please don't communicate this to your mother or to [your aunt who's married to Hertzberg], they will think I'm steering you away from the ambition to which your state and above all your age inspire you."
But when he thinks of his father and paternal grandfather, both of whom had a reputation for competence and probity, and died chagrined in disgrace, and his uncle who lived on his estates and died happy, and his uncle's son who is now doing the same thing, he thinks the latter is the better example to follow.
Well, the moderate lifestyle, not climbing the ladder, is definitely what Karl did after getting burned in Turin!
That said, I don't think "And isolate yourself and refuse to see your family" was part of the advice, so maybe he was *also* clinically depressed. Or maybe he was just feeling pressured to climb the ladder!
ETA: Oh, and I meant to add that I recently found, hunting through the archive catalogues, that just as Oriane's father was dismissed in 1730 in connection with Fritz's escape attempt, *his* father got fired too:
The transformation of the old, casual, natural economy administration system, which hardly produced any surpluses, into a modern monetary lease system took place very slowly. Milestones in this development were the founding of the Office Chamber in 1615 and the establishment of the Secret Court Chamber, a collegial central authority for the domain administration in all provinces in 1689, whose intellectual originator was Dodo Baron von Knyphausen. However, this authority soon fell into disrepair again, as its president, Knyphausen, was involved in the downfall of Minister von Danckelmann. It was replaced by the Upper Domain Directorate under the leadership of the Chief Treasurer Count Kolbe Wartenberg, who irresponsibly saw the domains as an inexhaustible source of finance without doing anything to maintain them.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-20 05:25 am (UTC)Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-20 05:16 pm (UTC)I thiiink he's living/staying in Paris, and dependent on letters for news from back home.
Well, maybe he had a bad first impression but was willing to give him a chance, but then Karl blew it with the (alleged--maybe Karl's side of the story is different) letter-reading a couple years later.
Of course, it's also possible they haven't properly met as adults yet; that this guy moved to Paris before Karl became an adult, and Karl's trip to France was the first real impression this particular uncle got of him.
I need to work out the chronology of these people better, including some handwriting comparison to see who's who. My kingdom for more hours in the day!
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-21 01:08 pm (UTC)Sadly, brother Friedrich is dying. In May, Hertzberg wrote that he was spitting blood, so much that his life was in danger. Now it's June and he's no longer coughing blood, but suffering from so much languor that Hertzberg doesn't think he'll recover (he's correct, the boy has 5 more months to live).
Hertzberg says much the same thing as when he eulogizes Friedrich, but with more compare and contrast with the older brother:
It is a pity, because he is a young man, who had a very handsome face, a lot of spirit and of achivements. The elder has less vivacity, but he is very well accomplished in his studies, and is of an almost excessive sagesse, not going far from home or from his aunts'.
Now, I originally translated "sagesse" as "studiousness", but a little digging shows it can mean "good behavior", "quietness", or "modesty", so I'm now thinking it goes with "never leaves home" more than "accomplished in his studies." Of course, as I am living proof, these two things go together! So it's probably along the lines of "quiet, studious homebody, not the life of the party like his brother."
Incidentally, I think I can narrow down when Friedrich got sick: Hertzberg's last letter before he mentions Friedrich being sick dates to January, and in May, he says the last letter he received from his correspondent (I think Oriane's youngest brother, the modest-lifestyle non-diplomat one) was February 29th. So I think Friedrich fell sick sometime between January and May of 1764, and then he died in November 1764.
More details on the development of Karl's thoughts on what he wanted to do with his career when I have time!
(Also, I think Oriane is able to rent out rooms in the Jägerhof, contrary to what we thought back in early salon, but I could be wrong. I sight-read and didn't transcribe and translate the whole thing. So much to read, so little time!)
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-22 12:23 pm (UTC)Yes! She has been renting out the first floor to Hertzberg, for 500 units of currency (I hate abbreviations :P). According the address books, he moved there sometime between 1758 and 1760 (I don't see where he's living in 1759).
Also, Fritz only gave Oriane 2 weeks' notice to move out of the Jägerhof so he could found his bank.
This is good, because it's relevant to the stuff I put in about why Oriane and sons moved to the Jägerhof, her financial situation after Peter's death, etc. I *thought* she was renting space in it, I just couldn't prove it!
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-22 12:33 pm (UTC)He's in luck, he can rent a floor from the house of something for 600 (I think it's Reichstalers), and Madame de Keith is still without (tear and hole in the page).
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-15 11:46 pm (UTC)Madame de Keith says that she decided to go to court because she no longer had the means to support herself and to promote her sons. I proposed them as counsellors and secretaries of the embassies to Vienna and Paris; but I was told that they had no use for children.
Ouch.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-22 11:59 am (UTC)And then Hertzberg goes on to say that the Grand Directory proposed Karl as a refendarius (I think that's what Friedrich was when he died), but the final decision was that it wasn't a good fit, because Karl might join the military. Since that would be contrary to Karl's taste and constitution, Karl didn't know *what* he should do. Also his health was getting worse, and Hertzberg says that he fears that the numerous family will die out, "unless you or your brothers marry soon." Interesting that he uses the plural; Wikipedia gives me 3 living brothers at this point: Tido, who I didn't think was in the picture, so given that he's writing to one of the brothers, either Tido *is* in the picture and they know he hasn't married, or there's another brother.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-22 12:25 pm (UTC)BTW: Is this Hertzberg the same guy who later will prove Heinrich's doom in the reign of FW2?
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-22 12:29 pm (UTC)And it's ic for Fritz to phrase it like that.
Extremely. I suspected it was him.