Also, Peter, I'm sorry you died at age 45, but at least you didn't have to watch your teenage son slowly waste away. :(
Alas, yes. Figures it would be something like this; I think we still underestimate how many were killed by TB and all its variants until the 20th century started to come up with some efficient medication. ...didn't one of Lehndorff's kids (or several) also die this way?
A duel! At least Karl didn't kill anyone (or got killed himself), unlike certain members of the Katte family, ahem. (And it wasn't about being greedy for money.) BTW, the fact that Karl getting into a duel is regarded as shameful tells us something about changing Prussian mentality, because while duels were also illegal in the 19th century, you were almost expected to get into least one as a member of the nobility and we let off with a slap on the wrist and it was shameful to avoid a duel (big, big plot point in Fontane's novel Effi Briest where Effi's husband Innstetten despite being fully aware it's ridiculous to fight a duel about an affair a decade past and that he'll ruin three lives by doing so and doesn't want to still feels obliged to do so because of the Prussian honour code. Meanwhile in the 18th century....
FW & G2: we thought a duel was honorable! For us! Not for our nobles! We would have totally beaten the other guy if our courtiers only would have let us! En garde!
Lord Hervey: I fought a duel because the other guy attacked me in print as a gay pervert at a time when gays were executed in droves in the Netherlands, I won the damn duel, and still got ridiculed for my lack of manliness by bloody Alexander Pope. In retrospect: not worth it.
Heinrich: I tried my best to keep my last lover from fighting a duel with my favourite nephew after the later had snogged the former's wife; they were essentially 19th century people, of course, but thankfully I didn't lose either of them and cooler heads prevailed. Not a big fan of duels, me. Mind you, in a sense Fritz and I were duelling mentally and emotionally for most of my life, so...
I'm getting the impression that father and son were both quiet until they got worked up about something, and then it was up with the bonnets of Bonnie Dundee. :D
Indeed, and of course Peter was impulsive enough to sign on to not one but several mad escape schemes.
Oh, in lesser news, I also discovered that Karl got to make a trip to Paris in the early 1770s, with Fritz's permission.
Heinrich: Well, naturally he didn't have to wait, he wasn't related to him.
This is all amazing detective work, and you're awesome!
Alas, yes. Figures it would be something like this; I think we still underestimate how many were killed by TB and all its variants until the 20th century started to come up with some efficient medication. ...didn't one of Lehndorff's kids (or several) also die this way?
Maybe? The only cause of death given in the chronology in the Frederician library is the flu, for a son and a daughter. But I wouldn't be surprised. I know Wilhelmine and Algarotti both died of tuberculosis.
A duel! At least Karl didn't kill anyone (or got killed himself), unlike certain members of the Katte family, ahem. (And it wasn't about being greedy for money.)
Exactly what I told my partner immediately after making the discovery! "Tragic boyfriend's younger brothers both killed each other over the inheritance."
BTW, the fact that Karl getting into a duel is regarded as shameful tells us something about changing Prussian mentality, because while duels were also illegal in the 19th century, you were almost expected to get into least one as a member of the nobility and we let off with a slap on the wrist and it was shameful to avoid a duel
Keith clearly thought it would be shameful to avoid a duel! Speaking of the hypocrisy, remember luzulatelling us about the British navy court-martialing officers who didn't get into duels when they were supposed to, even though dueling was against the law?
FW & G2: we thought a duel was honorable! For us! Not for our nobles! We would have totally beaten the other guy if our courtiers only would have let us! En garde!
And we all wish you had!
Mind you, in a sense Fritz and I were duelling mentally and emotionally for most of my life, so...
Hahahaha.
Indeed, and of course Peter was impulsive enough to sign on to not one but several mad escape schemes.
Very true!
Heinrich: Well, naturally he didn't have to wait, he wasn't related to him.
LOL, that is exactly what I thought and almost included in my write-up!
This is all amazing detective work, and you're awesome!
Thank you! Learning how to decipher handwriting (in combination with being able to afford to order archival material) has really upped my detective game! That was one of the best things that happened to me last year.
Keith clearly thought it would be shameful to avoid a duel! Speaking of the hypocrisy, remember luzula telling us about the British navy court-martialing officers who didn't get into duels when they were supposed to, even though dueling was against the law?
Ha ha, I'm glad you came in to say that--I had the tab open and meant to do it...
To me it seems off that there would have been more social pressure to duel in the 19th century than in the 18th, but that is no doubt because I know more about British social norms, where dueling really declined in the turn of the 18th/19th century.
Dueling stuck around so long in Germany that even in the early 20th century, anyone who'd been to university [ETA: Or just those who were members of the upper classes? selenak?] had been basically required to acquire a dueling scar to prove their honor and courage. Academic fencing was different from "I need to fight you because you shamed me publicly," but it obviously grew out of that culture, which was alive and well in the nineteenth century.
When I learned this, it finally made sense out of one of my favorite books, a WWII historical novel I had first read in college, in which one of the German characters is so casually mentioned to have a dueling scar that I didn't originally understand why the author would be that casual about it. Nope, dueling scars were just a thing among the character's class! Nothing to see here, moving on.
But yes, the reason that was so confusing to me is that the practice of dueling died out much earlier in the British and American world!
Oh, one of the features of academic dueling that's always entertained me:
During the first half of the 19th century and some of the 18th century, students believed the character of a person could easily be judged by watching him fight with sharp blades under strict regulations. Academic fencing was more and more seen as a kind of personality training by showing countenance and fairness even in dangerous situations. Student corporations demanded their members fight at least one duel with sharp blades during their university time. The problem was that some peaceful students had nobody to offend them. The solution was a kind of formal insult that did not actually infringe honour, but was just seen as a challenge for fencing. The standard wording was dummer Junge (German for "stupid boy.")
Emphasis mine. :D If you're too nice to make enemies, how are we going to judge you?!
There's a movie someone recced to me which I've been wanting to see some day, which is called The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, which apparently starts with a British army officer having to duel with a German officer in the beginning of the 20th century.
BTW, the fact that Karl getting into a duel is regarded as shameful tells us something about changing Prussian mentality, because while duels were also illegal in the 19th century, you were almost expected to get into least one as a member of the nobility and we let off with a slap on the wrist and it was shameful to avoid a duel
Out of curiosity, since Keith (iirc) says that his actions were incompatible with his position as envoy: how did 19th century Prussians feel about their diplomats fucking up negotiations by getting into duels with members of the foreign court they were assigned to? That seems like a very specific problem.
Also, the nineteenth century seems to have been ashamed of duels for money rather than honor, if the cover-up over the fratricidal Katte brothers is anything to go by.
FW & G2: we thought a duel was honorable! For us! Not for our nobles! We would have totally beaten the other guy if our courtiers only would have let us! En garde!
Hee!
Not a big fan of duels, me. Mind you, in a sense Fritz and I were duelling mentally and emotionally for most of my life, so...
Of course he wasn't, good for him. But, now, those duels only made you wish you were dead, they didn't actually kill you...
Indeed, and of course Peter was impulsive enough to sign on to not one but several mad escape schemes.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2024-12-31 08:53 am (UTC)Alas, yes. Figures it would be something like this; I think we still underestimate how many were killed by TB and all its variants until the 20th century started to come up with some efficient medication.
...didn't one of Lehndorff's kids (or several) also die this way?
A duel! At least Karl didn't kill anyone (or got killed himself), unlike certain members of the Katte family, ahem. (And it wasn't about being greedy for money.) BTW, the fact that Karl getting into a duel is regarded as shameful tells us something about changing Prussian mentality, because while duels were also illegal in the 19th century, you were almost expected to get into least one as a member of the nobility and we let off with a slap on the wrist and it was shameful to avoid a duel (big, big plot point in Fontane's novel Effi Briest where Effi's husband Innstetten despite being fully aware it's ridiculous to fight a duel about an affair a decade past and that he'll ruin three lives by doing so and doesn't want to still feels obliged to do so because of the Prussian honour code. Meanwhile in the 18th century....
FW & G2: we thought a duel was honorable! For us! Not for our nobles! We would have totally beaten the other guy if our courtiers only would have let us! En garde!
Lord Hervey: I fought a duel because the other guy attacked me in print as a gay pervert at a time when gays were executed in droves in the Netherlands, I won the damn duel, and still got ridiculed for my lack of manliness by bloody Alexander Pope. In retrospect: not worth it.
Heinrich: I tried my best to keep my last lover from fighting a duel with my favourite nephew after the later had snogged the former's wife; they were essentially 19th century people, of course, but thankfully I didn't lose either of them and cooler heads prevailed. Not a big fan of duels, me. Mind you, in a sense Fritz and I were duelling mentally and emotionally for most of my life, so...
I'm getting the impression that father and son were both quiet until they got worked up about something, and then it was up with the bonnets of Bonnie Dundee. :D
Indeed, and of course Peter was impulsive enough to sign on to not one but several mad escape schemes.
Oh, in lesser news, I also discovered that Karl got to make a trip to Paris in the early 1770s, with Fritz's permission.
Heinrich: Well, naturally he didn't have to wait, he wasn't related to him.
This is all amazing detective work, and you're awesome!
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2024-12-31 12:42 pm (UTC)...didn't one of Lehndorff's kids (or several) also die this way?
Maybe? The only cause of death given in the chronology in the Frederician library is the flu, for a son and a daughter. But I wouldn't be surprised. I know Wilhelmine and Algarotti both died of tuberculosis.
A duel! At least Karl didn't kill anyone (or got killed himself), unlike certain members of the Katte family, ahem. (And it wasn't about being greedy for money.)
Exactly what I told my partner immediately after making the discovery! "Tragic boyfriend's younger brothers both killed each other over the inheritance."
BTW, the fact that Karl getting into a duel is regarded as shameful tells us something about changing Prussian mentality, because while duels were also illegal in the 19th century, you were almost expected to get into least one as a member of the nobility and we let off with a slap on the wrist and it was shameful to avoid a duel
Keith clearly thought it would be shameful to avoid a duel! Speaking of the hypocrisy, remember
FW & G2: we thought a duel was honorable! For us! Not for our nobles! We would have totally beaten the other guy if our courtiers only would have let us! En garde!
And we all wish you had!
Mind you, in a sense Fritz and I were duelling mentally and emotionally for most of my life, so...
Hahahaha.
Indeed, and of course Peter was impulsive enough to sign on to not one but several mad escape schemes.
Very true!
Heinrich: Well, naturally he didn't have to wait, he wasn't related to him.
LOL, that is exactly what I thought and almost included in my write-up!
This is all amazing detective work, and you're awesome!
Thank you! Learning how to decipher handwriting (in combination with being able to afford to order archival material) has really upped my detective game! That was one of the best things that happened to me last year.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-01 11:57 am (UTC)Ha ha, I'm glad you came in to say that--I had the tab open and meant to do it...
To me it seems off that there would have been more social pressure to duel in the 19th century than in the 18th, but that is no doubt because I know more about British social norms, where dueling really declined in the turn of the 18th/19th century.
Dueling
Date: 2025-01-01 01:04 pm (UTC)When I learned this, it finally made sense out of one of my favorite books, a WWII historical novel I had first read in college, in which one of the German characters is so casually mentioned to have a dueling scar that I didn't originally understand why the author would be that casual about it. Nope, dueling scars were just a thing among the character's class! Nothing to see here, moving on.
But yes, the reason that was so confusing to me is that the practice of dueling died out much earlier in the British and American world!
Oh, one of the features of academic dueling that's always entertained me:
During the first half of the 19th century and some of the 18th century, students believed the character of a person could easily be judged by watching him fight with sharp blades under strict regulations. Academic fencing was more and more seen as a kind of personality training by showing countenance and fairness even in dangerous situations. Student corporations demanded their members fight at least one duel with sharp blades during their university time. The problem was that some peaceful students had nobody to offend them. The solution was a kind of formal insult that did not actually infringe honour, but was just seen as a challenge for fencing. The standard wording was dummer Junge (German for "stupid boy.")
Emphasis mine. :D If you're too nice to make enemies, how are we going to judge you?!
Re: Dueling
Date: 2025-01-01 06:45 pm (UTC)There's a movie someone recced to me which I've been wanting to see some day, which is called The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, which apparently starts with a British army officer having to duel with a German officer in the beginning of the 20th century.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-02 03:39 pm (UTC)Out of curiosity, since Keith (iirc) says that his actions were incompatible with his position as envoy: how did 19th century Prussians feel about their diplomats fucking up negotiations by getting into duels with members of the foreign court they were assigned to? That seems like a very specific problem.
Also, the nineteenth century seems to have been ashamed of duels for money rather than honor, if the cover-up over the fratricidal Katte brothers is anything to go by.
Re: Peter's sons
Date: 2025-01-05 06:00 am (UTC)Hee!
Not a big fan of duels, me. Mind you, in a sense Fritz and I were duelling mentally and emotionally for most of my life, so...
Of course he wasn't, good for him. But, now, those duels only made you wish you were dead, they didn't actually kill you...
Indeed, and of course Peter was impulsive enough to sign on to not one but several mad escape schemes.
Oh, oof, that's true.