Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 49

[cahn]

Celebrating 5 years very soon?! :D

Comments

A Knyphausen Vagabond - Part 1

[mildred_of_midgard]

The next letter from Tido, November 1743, is very melodramatic. It opens thus:

Madame,
My very dear and very honored mother,

Do not be offended, Madame, I beg you, that I dare to give you this name after all that I have done to lead you to no longer give me that of your son.

Someone's been disowned! Either that, or she's not writing to him, and he's extrapolating passive aggressively. (He's extremely passive aggressive, it's amazing. You'll see.)

Then he grovels, saying he was initially stubborn, but now that he's run out of money he sees the error of his ways, and repents! (He doesn't say anything about money at this point, but we'll get to that.) So much so that if she's not going to take him back into her good graces, he's going to roam the earth, seeking out danger, until he DIES, because that's obviously what she wants.

I have done everything possible to achieve this goal, but my example will prove to you, Madam, that although one may desire death, it is as eager to pursue those who avoid it as it is careful to flee those who seek it.

First he went to sea for three months, which was incredibly terrible and dangerous! But all his suffering only made him think that a sea voyage was the way to go. So he embarked on another ship at Marseilles, one bound for Martinique (yes, the one in the West Indies).

Unfortunately, his conscience, which weighed so heavily on him, combined with the storms to give him a high fever, so much so that he had to be put ashore at Valencia. A bad French surgeon gave up on him, but he recovered anyway! Slowly and painfully and he almost died.

Since the evil fate that stalks him wouldn't allow him to die, he decided to try *again* to go to America. He returned to Marseilles, but then he discovered that the army was going to try to cross the Alps.

"I know! That sounds dangerous! Just the place for me."

Google translated for speed, sorry for the clunkiness:

It would be out of place if I were to amuse myself by detailing this expedition to you at length, which would otherwise deserve it, but I could appear to want to arouse your compassion by stories that may be found exaggerated. I will be content to tell you a few words about our retreat, during which we were made to pass through the thickest snow of the most terrible mountains and precipices that nature has ever formed, while there was not a single soldier in the whole army who had not been absolutely fasting for at least twenty-four hours, by which you will see that it is rather difficult to decide whether it was hunger or cold that caused the death of three hundred and seventy-two soldiers and two officers of our small French army, and eight hundred soldiers and ninety-two officers of the Spanish army, on that single day.

It is impossible to determine the number of those who had frozen feet or hands, it goes beyond what you might imagine.

I do not know whether to call good or bad my destiny which made me survive so many evils, which I was perhaps less able to bear than any of those who succumbed to them, this reflection persuades me that Heaven, more favorable to me than I deserve, did not want me to lose this life, which I have so often prayed to take from me, in the bad dispositions in which I was, it pleased it (Heaven) to preserve me to give me time to beg you to remove from me your curse, which will not cease to pursue me and from which even death which I believed to be the only remedy for my evils could not have delivered me.

Then he blames the evil advisors for turning her against him.

Then he grovels some more.

Then in a postscript he sends his love to his brothers and sisters. Then he mentions having sent a message to Monsieur Girard regarding a reply that he hoped from her. At which I promptly went, "Ooohhh. Money is a problem!"

You may remember from the Leining letters that "Messrs Girard Michelet & Comp." were paying out d'Alembert's pension in Paris, which led us to conclude they were bankers or some such.

Well, subsequent letters will demonstrate that 1) I was right, money is *the* problem, 2) Monsieur Girard is deeply involved in these transactions, so yes.

In 1744, there will be money, Peter, and more shenanigans!

Re: A Knyphausen Vagabond - Part 1

[selenak]

LOL, this is the 18th century male for you. Also, if Mom is angry at him and doesn't provide enough cash via banker, this could be either because Fritz is angry at her (never a good thing), or she really is as thrifty a per her reputation.

Anyway, I could see her thinking "we just got rid of FW! this could have been a great new start with the new King, and you just HAD to publish and piss him off!"

A Knyphausen Vagabond - Part 2

[mildred_of_midgard]

In April 1744, Tido gets news that his mom has gotten him a position as a lieutenant in the Bavarian army. He's supposed to go to Lyon, where someone will equip him with a uniform, a horse, and everything else he needs to set out and join the Second Silesian War.

He is extremely astonished, as he thought she would put him in the French army, but okay! To Bavaria he will go! He thanks his mom effusively, and says that he will go to Lyon promptly. He will explain the delay to the colonel of his regiment by saying that he took a bad fall on his travels and can't set out just yet.

But then he gets to Lyon, and the person who was supposed to outfit him for the army claims to know nothing of the arrangement, and definitely isn't giving him stuff for free.

So then it's all letters to everybody asking for money, money, money!

He writes to somebody, I'm not sure whom, who has been a benefactor to him in the past, and whom he is surprised and pleased to find is now in Prussian service, asking him to please use his influence with Mom to get him out of "the cruel embarrassment into which her manner of acting, which I dare call unreasonable, has plunged me."

Then my least favorite words, "I won't bore you with the complete detail of everything she's done in regard to me."

Me: No! Bore him! Historians centuries hence need to know!

BUT, he goes on to say, "I wrote the complete detail in a letter to Mr. de Keith two years ago, and I asked him to communicate everything to you. I'll content myself with saying that, unbeknownst to me, having received the position of lieutenant, without doubt due to his/her solicitation..." And then he recounts his financial situation and the difficulties he ran into at Lyon.

Now! The timing here is madly interesting to me, as is that possessive pronoun.

Two years before April 1744 is April 1742. I.e. when Jordan is acting as a go-between for Fritz and Peter, as well as Fritz and the Baroness von Knyphausen, when Fritz is threatening her with a workhouse and telling Peter that he's on his own. Now, since Tido doesn't say "two years ago this month," that means it's somewhere between late 1741 and late 1742 that he wrote to Peter. But the general mood holds: Peter may or may not be married to Oriane when he gets Tido's letter, and Fritz is definitely pissed at both Tido and Mom.

Second, whose solicitation? Is he saying he assumes that Peter, the most recent noun in the sentence, intervened with Mom? Or that it was Mom who pulled strings with the Bavarians? I mean, we know it has to be Mom pulling strings, would he feel the need to say "without doubt?" Elsewhere, in his next letter, he just says, "She saw fit to get me this position," without saying what amounts to "I assume she got me this position."

So is he saying that he never heard back from Peter, but Peter must be the one who talked her around?

Tell me more, Tido!!

Also: why is he writing to Peter? Did he know Peter before he left Prussia? What does he know *about* Peter? The window's a little tight: Peter got back to Berlin in mid October 1740, the Prussian army leaves (with Tido as an officer) for the Silesian invasion in mid December. Unless Tido came back to Berlin during winter quarters (possible, I suppose), he's in Silesia until his arrest in mid 1741, then has to escape. He has no further opportunity to meet Peter.

So is this an act of desperation: "I hear my sister just married this guy, let me try him?" But if you've never met someone, and you never hear back from them to confirm that they intervened on your behalf, why would you assume silence means they totally got on board with supporting you, just didn't feel the need to tell you that? I'm leaning toward him having met Peter and deciding he was a nice guy.

We know from Maupertuis that Peter knew the Knyphausens already within 5-6 months of his arrival, well enough that he's telling Oriane and Hedwig hi from Maupertuis. It starts to make me wonder if Kloosterhuis is right when he speculates that maybe Peter already knew the Knyphausens in the late 1720s, and that was one reason he was valuable to Fritz for the escape plan.

Because if Peter knew the Knyphausens when he left, then him looking them up as soon as he arrives in Berlin makes sense. Then Tido's decision to write to him and to assume the best in the absence of evidence makes sense.

But there's always the possibility that he's referring not to "Mr. de Keith" with "sa" but to "elle" way back in the beginning of the paragraph. Seems highly unlikely, but I'm not ruling it out.

Btw, I'm assuming "Mr. de Keith" is Peter, because there aren't *that* many Keiths in Berlin; George and James hadn't arrived in 1742 (and still haven't in 1744); and what other Keith would you write to to try to get your mom to send you money, if not the man your sister just married?

So that happens, and eventually he ends up in Germany with the Bavarian army, but only at great personal expense and after having to "call in sick" multiple times the colonel.

Then in August he writes a letter from Altstadt, to what I believe is a Monsieur de Kraut, saying that Kraut has always had a lot of influence with Mom, can he please get her to send him the same monthly allowance he used to get when he was in the Prussian army, this is completely unreasonable. Lots of detail on how much things cost. Some military detail, and how he's been lucky to escape unwounded.

Mr. de Kraut forwards the letter to Mom and says, "I got this letter from your son, and I didn't want to reply without your permission and knowing what your intentions are."

-- Kind of what I feel Peter did too.

And that's all the letters I have from Tido (though I may add in more detail as I remember more and/or reread; I'm going largely from memory here).

There's one letter from Monsieur Girard, sent from Lyon in June 1741, which I've only partially read, because his handwriting is so *weird*, plus long loops on every letter that cover the line below it, so all the writing is partially obscured. What I was able to make out without putting in too much effort didn't make it look like it was worth the effort of mastering his handwriting right now, but it looks like it might have a better explanation of the financial troubles Tido ran into in Lyon.

Anyway! This is all from Tido for now, until some English merchant who doesn't like him writes about him in 1783. (Wikipedia tells me Tido died in 1780.)

ETA: Oh, right, I forgot his suicide threat!

I let her know by Mr. de Keith that however far I am from making new and unpleasant business with her, that I am nevertheless very resolved to take a course in which I will listen only to my despair, if she does not want to grant me my necessities.

Right, and I was going to comment to agree with what Selena said: the Baroness is being yelled at by Fritz for helping her son too much, and yelled at by her son for not helping him enough. No wonder Jordan feels sorry for her!

(I really wish I knew what Peter said/did re Tido!! I feel like 1742 was not a time he wanted to piss off Fritz, though maybe after the war was over and he was married to Oriane, which is *probably* when Tido wrote to him, he was in a slightly more secure position.)

Re: A Knyphausen Vagabond - Part 2

[selenak]

Good lord, the melodrama. My sympathies are with Mom, Tido.

Re: the Bavarian army, and who got him a job there - this is also interesting because unless I‘m misremembering, the supreme commander of the Bavarian army in Silesia 2 was….drumroll… Seckendorff. Remember: in the final years of MT‘s Dad‘s reign, he‘d been locked up supposedly for fucking up in the war against the Turks, then MT released him when she took over, but evidently didn‘t offer him the command of her armies, then Seckendorff was pissed off about that and took the job offer from the Bavarians, i.e. the newly elected Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach, now the second and last Wittelsbach Emperor of the HRE. (Much entertaining stuff about the first Wittelsbach Emperor, Ludwig the Bavarian, in Dirk‘s podcast.) Now given Seckendorff‘s most notable job in recent decades had been when he was envoy at FW‘s court, so I wouldn‘t be surprised if Frau von Knyphausen knew him from that time. (I mean, Peter evidently must have known of him, but being a friend of Fritz, I very much doubt he socialized with him.)

Anyway, Silesia 2 was of course when the Bavarians didn‘t succeed gloriously at all but found MT’s army (including Austrian Trenck) occupying Bavaria and Karl Albrecht kicked out of his own home country and remaining kicked out until he died and the chastened electors voted for MT Franz Stephan. So I‘m not surprised Tido would rather have been with the French (who didn‘t cover themselves with glory, either, but at least didn‘t get their country occupied) and had a miserable time of it. Notable Bavarian curse to this day: „Saupreuß!“

(The Rhinelanders weren’t the only ones who really really really did not like the Prussians very much.)

A Knyphausen Abroad

[mildred_of_midgard]

Now it's time to quote extensively from Five Letters From a Free Merchant in Bengal to Warren Hastings.

According to this website:

"Five Letters from a Free Merchant in Bengal to Warren Hastings" was a pamphlet published in 1783 from London by Captain Joseph Price. Joseph Price as the title of the pamphlet was a free merchant, who operated alongside the East India Company in India. Joseph Price went to India in 1750, to trade on his own behalf from the Asian ports. Initially based in Bombay, Price later shifted to Calcutta in 1767. Price's trade extended when he took over the business of Richard Gregory another free merchant. Once his fortunes declined, Price returned back to India in 1780 trying to settle with his creditors. It was in Britain that Price made his name as a pamphleteer. Between 1782-83 he published as many as fourteen pamphlets, including "Five Letters from a Free Merchant in Bengal to Warren Hastings". Price came back to Indian in 1784 as marine storekeeper. In 1786 he was promoted to marine paymaster. Price continued his trade till 1793, when he sent back. Price died in 1796.

He writes about Tido's time in "Bussorah", which Wikipedia tells me is Basra, a port city in modern-day Iraq.

A factory, cahn, as you may recall from the Peter bio, "is not a factory as in a place of manufacture, as we use the term today, but a collective of merchants with its own bylaws, hospital, cemetery, chaplain, and chapel."

Here's what Joseph Price has to say about Baron Tido von Knyphausen:

It was a maxim with the Baron, that the Dutch and English factory flags should never fly in sight of each other. But the English were not the rivals of the Dutch at Bussorah. The former had neither sugar nor spice to send there; the latter brought very little else. The Baron's story has been made up since his expulsion: And the Dutch at Batavia, have their ears ever open to believe any disadvantageous story of their rivals in trade. The Baron, who used truth or falshood in his narratives, as best suited his purpose, laid the blame of the treatment he received from the Turkish government, entirely to the account of the English, as with intent to cover the real cause of his expulsion. The truth is this; the Baron was a man of great intrigue, and had a very high opinion of his own abilities in the service of the fair. His vanity often prompted him to boast of favours he never received. It is not easy for a European, and a Christian, in so conspicuous a situation, as that in which the Baron acted at Bussorah, to negociate for himself, in affairs which lead to an intimate intercourse with Mahometan ladies. The law positively forbids such commerce, even with the meanest of the people, and a discovery is very fatal to both parties.

Knyphausen's ambition led him to seek an intimacy with Duchesses and Lady Marys; and the pimps of Bussorah, like their brethren in all other parts of the world, promise Junos, though they deal in clouds. One of those honest men taught the Baron to believe, that the young spouse of a rich old Turkish merchant, sighed for his embraces. Secret passages, trap doors, and every other apparatus of intrigue, was prepared at the Dutch factory. Hush money was in golden showers advanced; and a trained goddess from the public stews, was conducted with great mystery to the Baron's arms. The art of the well taught courtezan, her fine clothes, which had been procured by the Baron's bounty, together with his ignorance in the Turkish and Arabian languages, enabled the pimp and drab to impose on him for some time.

But nothing could secure him from the effects of his own absurd vanity. He puffed of his success so often, and so publicly, that the Cadies Officers got intelligence of the intrigue. The factory was surrounded, and the happy pair taken together. The Baron was confined, the Lady drummed with ignominy round the town, and the Pimp lost his nose and ears. I have several times since seen the miserable mutilated wretch, imploring charity from the passengers in the public way.

Whether the Baron received a bambooing or not, I really do not remember; but I know that the English Resident, interested himself extremely with the government, to prevent so disgraceful and painful an application, to the feet of a national Resident. Be that as it may, it cost the Baron large sums to make the matter up, and obtain his release. He was however, at length discharged, went to Batavia, and had art enough to procure some ships of force, with which he returned to the Gulf of Persia; landed on the Island of Carrack, and sent his ships to block up the entrance to Bussorah River; laid the government under contribution, as well as the foreign merchants; and for a time interrupted the trade of the port; and obtained repayment of the money which had been forced from him, with large premium.

Then Joseph recounts Tido having more adventures in a province formerly belonging to Persia, intriguing, getting involved in coups, etc.

In conclusion, I have no idea what this guy *actually* did, but I think it's safe to conclude that he's not boring! From the guy who wrote those super melodramatic letters, and casually lied to the colonel of his new regiment about being sick*, I'm willing to believe a lot!

* I wouldn't be surprised if he was faking the fever at Breslau, too. I know he says Fritz's personal physician inspected him, but 1) maybe he's lying about that (I'm just going by what my sister would do here), 2) Wilhelmine's memoirs report young Fritz self-inducing the symptoms of a fever, by applying heated-up stones to his skin, I believe.

Anyway, that's all I know about him, but Knyphausen papers I don't have copies of say they have more deets, so once I've got a list of what I want access to, I'll contact the family again and ask for permission, then place an order with the archive. (They have more on Amalia, too!)

Re: A Knyphausen Abroad

[selenak]

It‘s a small 18th century world: was just reading a bit about Warren Hastings‘ trial in the G3 biography. Also Feuchtwanger wrote a drama (as in play) about Warren Hastings, so I know tidbits of his story. Did Price publish these five letters before, during or after the trial?

Anyway, LOL about Tido the wannabe Casanova. I‘m intrigued by the phrasing he sought intimacy „with Duchesses and Lady Marys“ - given „our“ Lady Mary was a prominent figure in her life time and chances are someone interested in the East had read her Embassy Letters, so do you think Price makes an allusion to her here? I mean, not in the sense that Tido was trying to get it on with her, obviously she was dead and had been for many years at that point, in the sense that he uses „Lady Mary“ as a stand in for „English aristocratic lady who travels abroad and writes about it“ because Lady Mary Wortley Montagu was still the most famous Englishwoman wo have done so at this point?

Basra I know mainly from the 1001 nights story where the main character wants to avoid literal Death who waits for him in Basra and asks Haroun Al Rashid for help.

Anyway, it looks like Tido‘s true career should have been that of a pirate….

New archive material wishlist

[mildred_of_midgard]

With all our recent discoveries, I've been hunting through the Prussian and Aurich archive catalogues, and I've made some pretty exciting discoveries!

First and foremost, in the private Knyphausen papers, there is a document entitled:

"The arrest of Baron Tido Friedrich zu Inn- und Knyphausen at the request of his mother - 1745"

!!!

1745?? I have to wonder what's going on there. She just had him placed in a Bavarian regiment in 1744. Since 1745 is the end date, and no start date is given, I wonder if there are multiple documents, some undated, and 1745 is the only dated one. Maybe the arrest was in 1741. Anyway, *something* dramatic is going on here, and this document is a must-have!

Then it looks like maybe there was some kind of legal battle between the Knyphausen cousin in East Frisia regarding his being guardian of Oriane and her siblings after their father's 1731 death? I didn't realize he had been appointed their guardian, but that makes sense.

Then there's letters from this cousin to his son Georg Anton and his cousin Tido. Now, there are multiple Tidos, so maybe this isn't *our* Tido, but I have to check! The letters are from 1776-1780, and our Tido dies in 1780, so it's just barely possible.

There's a set of documents on Amalia Schönhausen, from 1764 to 1780, which I want, of course.

And then, over in the Prussian archive, Hertzberg has been corresponding with Trenck in the years 1779 to 1792. While there's only a slim chance that Amalia gets mentioned, it's possible, and in any case, Trenck, like Tido, is a "never a dull moment" adventurer!

I'm not planning to order these immediately (except maybe the Prussian one); I need the leisure to do a thorough hunt through the Knyphausen papers for a list of everything I anticipate wanting in the next several months, since I don't want to be bothering them every other week as I discover new goodies in the catalogue.

I will definitely keep salon posted as I acquire new material and make new discoveries via the power of decipherment!

Re: New archive material wishlist: Felis?

[mildred_of_midgard]

Felis, since you've been super helpful to me in figuring out how to order from archives in the past, I wanted to let you know that I'm struggling with figuring out where to find, and how to order, and how much it will cost, the French envoy reports from the French foreign affairs department. I know that would mean navigating sites in French, not German, but just in case you feel up to it and have the time, I respect your detective skills greatly and could use the help.

And I just know that if I could get my hands on Rottembourg's and Sauveterre's envoy reports from the 1720s and 1730, we'd find something good! :D (If nothing else, I'd like to cite the reports directly for the Peter Keith bio, and not have to rely on Lavisse's summaries.) But every time I try to find them, I either end up searching a catalogue where they don't turn up, or a website refuses to load, or I end up looking at a pricing form that says 50 euros per page, and it's just been a frustrating experience. I can't even figure out what building I would need to go to and and what I would need to ask for if I ended up going in person.

If you don't have time, I'll see what I can do, but I don't know if or when I'll have more success in the future than I have in the past.

No worries if you can't! Just thought I'd ask!

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 3, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Now that the essay draft is done, it's back to Teuton-picking the letters!

Forgetting about spelling and capitalization for a minute, since this is an extremely literal transcription, how are the word endings?

1) ich habe nach der Fredersdorffischen manier welchem ich viele obligation habe das ich so viel undter der handt von ihnen gelernt mit gutem und bösem inquerirt

- welchem

- viele obligation

- von ihnen (referring to a singular formal Fredersdorf--could be "ihm")

- mit gutem und bösem

2) in meinem Haus wohnen

- meinem

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 3, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

As far as I can see, your endings are correct.

Welchem: I am assuming Leining wanted to write "zu welchem" or "von welchem", and left out the zu or von. Welchem in this case would refer to Fredersdorf himself who taught him the Fredersdorf method, after all.

Viele Obligation: he's thinking in German. Viele Schuldigkeit, die Schuldigkeit/Obligation, i.e. "die", Femininum.

Von Ihnen - he's using the formal address to Fredersdorf in the correct grammar rather than the plural for something else. If he's vous-ing Fredersdorf and wants to say "I've learned much from you", then it is "von Ihnen gelernt".

m as an ending for gutem und bösem is correct, he's using the Dativ after all. (So the Fredersdorf method includes playing both good and bad cop in interrogations, does it? Figures.)

In meinem Haus, yes.

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 5, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

1) Word ending check, please.

Meiner Frau werde ich ihre inattention verweisen

- Meiner

2) Meaning check:

Es findet sich aber unter denen allhier vorhandenen Scripturen keine Specification noch quitirte Rechnung von diesem Posten, und dahero besorge ich, dass Völcker die Auszahlung entweder gantz oder doch zum Theil unterlassen haben möge. Erweisen Sie mir doch die Gefälligkeit, und lassen Sie einmahl den Italiener Dominico, der die größte Post zu fordern gehabt, kommen, und fragen Sie ihn ob er bezahlt ist?

Does "Post" have a meaning, like "invoice" or "bill", that makes sense in this context?

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 5, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

1) Meiner is grammatically correct.

2) „Posten“ is an expression from bookkeeping. See here:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durchlaufender_Posten

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 8, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Word ending check, please.

1) Dem Stall-Commissario Kosack habe ich inzwischen aufgegeben, mir zu berichten warum er die Kienbergsche Pacht und Pahrensche Dienstgelden nicht ordentlich und zur gesetzten Zeit abgetragen und wie Er es anjetzo anfangen wollen, dass diese Post berichtiget werde?

- wollen or wolle?

2) bey unserm Einmarsch

- unserm

3) einen Rittmeister, einen Lieutenant und 31 Gemeine nebst Pferden zu Gefangene gemacht

- Gefangene

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 8, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

1) „Wolle“ would be grammatically correct.

2) „unserm“ is correct. Like „beim“, it‘s a smashing of that became more and more common „bei dem“ = beim, „unserem“ = unserm.

3) Gefangenen would be the correct form.

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 9, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

1) Der Obrist von Strantz vom Printz von Preussen ist gestern bey der Attaque des Zisca Berges auch geblieben

- ausgeblieben or auch geblieben?

2) wurde an eben dem Tage beym Recognisciren durch die Brust geschossen

- In this case, the 'ym' is pretty clear; it's the first two letters I can't make out. Does "beym" (i.e., beim), make grammatical sense here? The "Recognisciren" here is the individual's promotion to colonel.

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 9, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

1.) Auch geblieben - since he‘s talking about casualities during the siege of Prague, right? „Auf dem Felde geblieben“ = old fashioned expression for „died“, became a casuality“.

2) Beym, i.e. beim, makes perfect grammatical sense, though I am surprised you say „recognisciren“ is the promotion, I would have thought it means patrolling, scouting.

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 10, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Word ending check, please.

1) ein beständiger Stein des Anstoßes

- beständiger

2) ich wollte mich aber aller Verantwortung, wenn es schlecht gienge feyerlich entsagen

- aller

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 10, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

Both correct.

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 11, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Meaning and syntax help:

1) Schreiben Sie mir doch, ob Se. Maj. der König denen Kietzern in Cüstrin wenn sie Höchstdenenselben Fische gesandt, ein Douceur bekommen haben.

This is one we've debated before, twice. I have an overwhelming amount of evidence that "Douceur" means "tip" in German, just like in English, and no evidence it can mean anything else. My understanding of how the world works is that if you give the king some fish, he might give *you* a tip. If you give the king some fish, you do not then give *him* a tip on top of the fish.

Assuming this is true, and you know I always hesitate to correct native speakers, does the following sentence make more sense?

Schreiben Sie mir doch, ob Se. Maj. der König denen Kietzern in Cüstrin wenn sie Höchstdenenselben Fische gesandt, ein Douceur bekommen lassen haben.

In other words, is it possible Leining just forgot to write "lassen" because Prague is being bombed and he's a bit distracted by the constant shelling?

If so, did I put "lassen" in the right place?

Word-middle help:

2) Die gestern an meine Frau gesandte relation

- gesandte or gesendte?

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 11, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

1) Could „bekommen“ be „zukommen“? Because if it‘s „zukommen“, then Fritz is the one giving the douceur and grammatical and linguistical sense is restored.

I..whether his Majesty the King has arranged a tip to be forwarded to the Kietzer in Küstrin when they‘ve sent fish to him.

2) Either gesandte or gesendete, but not gesendte.

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 13, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

1) Ich hoffe, dass Sie dieses mein Arrangement, auf die Art, wie ich die Ehre gehatt, es hier zu detailliren, für gut finden werden.

I find it difficult to read that as anything but "gehatt". I'm not familiar with that from modern German, but does it sound appropriately old-fashioned?

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 13, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

It‘s a simple 18th century typo. „Gehabt“ is the correct word, and I guess he misspelled.

Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 14, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Word ending check, please.

1) aus Höchsteigener Bewegung

- eigener

2) Denn der wulff lässt von seinen Haar etc etc.

- seinen

3) dass es auf eine oder die andere arth änderte.

- eine

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 14, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

Only one 18th century typo here -, 2) should be „seinem“ in the correct spelling and grammar, though again, it‘s an easy mistake, especially before the arrival of Duden.

Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 2, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Questions 1-2 are "Is there a more suitable 'da-' word, because the end of the word has some flexibility in how I can read it in both cases."

1) Schlägt mir meine Hoffnung aber auch fest, werde ich mich auch darin zu finden wissen.

- darin

2) Alles was vorjetzo davon vorräthig ist

- davon

3) Bey meiner Durchreise durch Dresden, die just den 2ten Oster-Tag geschahe

- geschahe

"geschahe" is what I see written, but that's not a word, afaik. It could also be "geschehen", which is a word, but it doesn't feel like a grammatically correct word to me.

Help?

Re: Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 2, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

1) and 2) are both correct, where's the problem?

3) "geschah" without an e would be a correct word in this context. Perhaps his pen slipped?

Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 3, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

1) Der Anfang ist erwünscht, der Fortgang der glücklichen Waffen des Königes wird vielleicht des baldigen Ende des Krieges seyn

This isn't a grammatical word ending question, for once, but an idiom question: does "Waffen" make good idiomatic sense here? Like, standing in for "waging war", "arms", "campaign"? I know it *can* mean "the totality of weapons" in the plural, but so can English "arms", and yet I still wouldn't say "the continuation of the king's fortunate arms" in English. It's just awkward. So my question is: in German, is the sentence as I've written it awkward, or is "Waffen" a perfectly cromulent word there? Because the whole word is a little hard to read and could be a completely different word (but if so, I don't know which).

This is one of my "I can't read the word clearly, I made an educated guess in which I have low confidence" questions.

Re: Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 3, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

I am tempted to suggest

„Fortgang des glücklichen Waffengangs des Königs“

Which would make grammatical and idiomatic sense, as I am not familiar with the expression „glückliche Waffen“, whereas „Waffengang“ might be old school but did exist. But maybe he noticed he‘s repeating „gang“ twice and changed his mind mid sentence about the word he wanted to use, and/or partly thought in French - aux armes!

Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 7, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Checking that the verb forms are correct:

1) Die Noth ist nach Aussage einiger gestern angekommenen Deserteurs in der Stadt schon sehr groß, besonders fehlet es an Fleisch, zu dessen Ersetzung man bereits viele Pferde schlachten müssten, und würde das Pfund vor 2 Xer verkauft.

- müssten
- würde

This is one of those cases where the handwriting is a little unclear, and I've made my best educated guess.

2) Not really a question, but I think "2 Xer" is 2 Kreuzer, assuming that 2 Kreuzer = 8 Pfennig is an extortionate price for a pound of horsemeat. (8 pennies sounds cheap to me, but the penny was worth a lot more then! ;))

Re: Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 7, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

Müssten: should be either

„zu dessen Ersetzung man bereits viele Pferde schlachten musste“

Or

„zu dessen Ersetzung man bereits viele Pferde hatte schlachten müssen“

2) Yes, „xer“ is Kreuzer.

Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 8, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Word-ending check.

1) Ew. Hochwohlgeb. die letzten von hier abgeschickte Nachrichten nicht erhalten haben

- abgeschickte

This is one of those where I clearly see "abgeschickte" but think it should be "abgeschickten", and maybe the 'n' just got scrawled to the point of disappearing. Please clarify whose mistake this is.

Re: Gentze to Fredersdorf, Letter 8, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

„abgeschickten“ would be the grammatically correct fashion, so if he didn‘t add the n, it‘s his mistake or scrawl.

Anderson to Fredersdorf, page 1, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Anderson has the second-worst handwriting! (I'm saving Glasow for last.)

What small word would make the most sense in the following sentence?

1) Es wird allem vermüthen nach Ew. Wohlgebohren bereits hinter bracht worden sein dass mich S. K. M. wider zu sich XXX dero höchste Persohn genommen.

It's small in that it's got 2-3 characters, and also small in that none of the characters have tails that go above or below the line: no 'g', 't', 's', 'f', 'h', 'z', etc. Only small letters like 'i', 'n', 'm', 'u', 'e', 'a', 'o', etc.

There is either an 'i' or a 'u' in this word, based on the dot above the line. It looks more like a dotted 'i', but it could be a very small breve signalling a 'u'.

I'm sure there will be more Anderson questions later; I'm only on page 1 of 4, and it's slow going.

ETA: Wait, does "um" make sense here? I was leaning toward 'i' because of of the very tiny dot, but "um" is the closest I've come to a word that has the right number of strokes and also makes some kind of sense to me. And sometimes these breves are very small.

Re: Anderson to Fredersdorf, page 1, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

"um" would work - a valet, as we said elsehwere, being intimately close to the person of their master (hence the quip that no man is a hero to his valet" all the time. BTW, Anderson is misspelling "wider", it should be "wieder", since it means "again", not "against".

Anderson to Fredersdorf, pages 2-4, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Word ending check:

1) gesaget zu haben, dass es sich weder von einen noch dem andern Theil scheide

- scheide

Also, is "scheiden" the right verb here at all? That's not an idiom I'm familiar with (you previously translated it as "that it should be either one or the other"), but most German idioms I'm not familiar with!

This is a little hard to read, and I've taken my best guess.

2) What is a word, potentially an old-fashioned loanword, that might start with "Tract" and might mean payment?

habe noch keinen Heller Traat: erhalten

I think it's in a Latin script, meaning it's probably French, and it's driving me crazy because I have three examples of him writing this word, and all three look exactly like "Traat:" (including the colon at the end). Thoughts?

3) hir gehet es jetzo XXunt zu

Thoughts on what the missing character or characters could be? It looks something like "bunt" or "lount", neither of which makes great sense to me here. Could be "laut", since I've seen "gunte" for "gute" somewhere in these letters. There's definitely a tall character at the beginning, that's all I can say.

4) ich sage, dass der Herr Fredersdorf haben ihm nur in seinen eigenen Sachen gebraucht, auch wohl in einigen Königlichen worden

Does "worden" make sense there? It's a little hard to read, and I've taken my best guess.

5) nicht zu unsern Vortheil

- unsern

This is one of those where I clearly see "unsern" but think it should be "unserm". His mistake or mine?

Re: Anderson to Fredersdorf, pages 2-4, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

1) Maybe "scheide" stands short for either "entscheide" - as in, Fritz should decide whether Anderson is to one of the lower servants or his trusted valet - or "unterscheide", as in, Anderson has now waited for two months and his treatment still doesn't differ from what he got when he arrived, i.e., he's still sitting with the lower servants. I could see either but when making my translation decided for the former.

2) Search me. I mean, the context is clear, he's not been paid the salary he thinks he deserves and other people are, but all French words I can think of are completely different from anything near "traat", and I can't think of an old school German word, either.

3) I vote for "bunt". As in "kunterbunt" . It's old school, but "hier geht es (kunter)bunt zu" = "It's wild/chaotic here".

4) It's bad/terrible grammar, and he's switching mid sentence; what he should have written was "auch ist er wohl in einigen königlichen (Sachen) gebraucht worden", but I think that's what he means, in which case "worden" as the past tense makes sense. (After all, he wants to say that Fredersdorf used to employ Gentze mainly for his own stuff and only rarely on royal business.)

5) His mistake, it should be "unserm".

Glasow to Fredersdorf, Letter 1, Teuton-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

Glasow has the worst handwriting. So for all of these, I've made a bunch of educated guesses. I've highlighted the parts I'm especially unsure about, but in general I'd like you to look at each word in the whole sentence and tell me if you think a) that word doesn't belong there, b) it does but in a different grammatical form.

1) Und da S. Maj. der König willens sein alle die gemachte Schulden Sie mögen auch nahmen haben wie Sie wollen zu bezahlen

2) Die reparation des Sanssouci soll gleich mit aufgeführet werden, die Rechnung welche ich Ihnen bey meinen dasein gegeben, soll ebenfalls mit aufgeführet werden.

Thank you! Only one more letter left to Teuton-pick!

Re: Glasow to Fredersdorf, Letter 1, Teuton-picking

[selenak]

Okay, here's my guess for the first sentence.

"Sie" is wrongly capitalized and isn't referring in the address mode to Fredersdorf but to the debts as noun. "nahmen" otoh, should be capitalized and should lack an h. In which case it's the plural form of "names", not the past tense for "take", and the whole sentence could mean:

"And since His Majesty the King should be willing to pay for all the debts made, no matter what they are called" (literally "what names they may have")

2) "Die Rechnung, welche" is correct.

Embezzlement

[mildred_of_midgard]

This is one of Pfeiffer's convictions:

3. Dass er von denen, zum Bau derer Spinner-Dörfer Friedrichshagen, Gosen, und Marienwerder Allergnädigst accordirten, und aus der Etablissements Casse nach, und nach erhobenen Geldern 4387 Reichstaler 11 Groschen 4 Denarii dazu verwendet zu sein nicht hat nachweisen können, und er daher solche Summe zwar nicht zu unterschlagen gemeinet gewesen ist, doch unterdessen, bis die Notdurft bei dem gedachten Baue deren Erstattung erheischet haben mochte, zu seinen eigenen Privat-Nutzen gebrauchet hat,

Are they implying that it would have been okay for Pfeiffer to borrow money from the funds for establishing colonies if he had paid it back when it was needed, and it's the fact that he didn't pay it back when needed that made his behavior embezzlement?

I know this is behavior that was treated as okay in Russia at the time; was it okay in Prussia too?

-- An essay writer adding a conclusion to the essay

Re: Embezzlement

[selenak]

To me, it sounds like Pfeiffer is believed to not have meant to embezzle, but since he couldn't prove he'd used the money in the intended way, it's assumed he did so for his private purposes and didn't pay it back by the time it would have been needed.

We didn't start the fire: Anglo-picking

[mildred_of_midgard]

cahn: what lines are particularly tricky for you to sing? And are there any in mine?

Re: We didn't start the fire: Anglo-picking

[cahn]

Ugh, I've had a few RL commitments taking up all my executive function this week so I haven't had a chance to look at it. Next week I am hoping should be more manageable!

Yours I can tell you without having to re-sing it, though: Poniatowski/ Struensee, Stanislaus Leszczynski :P But I know there is nothing to be done about that :PP

Citation questions

[mildred_of_midgard]

I'm starting to go through the Peter Keith essay looking for places where I still need to add a source and page number, and wow is this harder than I expected.

1. selenak, do you remember where we can find FW's "Teach him to fear his mother, but never me?"

2. We had said that Guy-Dickens was wrong about Fritz's beard growing, because FW had specified that a servant was to shave him. All I can find is this:

Meanwhile, his lackey should be allowed with him; that person should sleep in the city, and food should be gotten for him out of the garrison kitchen for 6 groschen at noon and 4 groschen in the evening.

and

A servant from the guard should bring the prisoner a basin, also a glass of water, to clean himself, and should also carry the waste out of the room, this must not last longer than half a quarter of an hour

Are we sure that's enough time to shave? It's possible, but it's not my first reading. Later on in the second letter, he says the door will be unlocked 3 times a day, and each time it's not to be left unlocked longer than 4 minutes:

Every morning at 8 am it should be unlocked, at which point 2 officers should go in to make sure everything is in order; A servant/lackey ("calfactor") from the guard should bring the prisoner a basin, also a glass of water, to clean himself, and should also carry the waste out of the room, this must not last longer than half a quarter of an hour, then the officers go out, and everything must be locked up again. At noon will food be sent in, as already ordered, and the door be closed up again; in the evening at 6 pm it shall be unlocked again, and something to eat brought in; the dirty spoon and plate will be taken away and again everything locked up; the next morning, when water is brought in, shall the dirty spoon and plate be taken away again, thus the door is unlocked 3 times a day, and each time must last no longer than 4 minutes.

I'm actually thinking that Fritz was allowed his lackey between the time when the first letter was sent (Sep 7) and the second (Sep 19), and the lackey probably shaved him then, but after that, no lackey and no shaving between Sep 19 and the mid-November pardon.

So maybe Guy-Dickens was onto something there?

Second, I see nothing about when his candle should be extinguished each night, here or elsewhere in this set of Küstrin-related documents Preuss prints. Remember the famous story of Fritz's candle being extinguished and then relit by a sympathetic authority figure? There are different variants on what time of night the candle was supposed to be extinguished by FW's order, but all 8 pm or 9 pm that I can remember. (9 pm according to König in 1740, which I consider the most reliable account.) However, FW's instructions to Lepel say the door should be kept well-locked day and night, and the last time it opens is 6 pm. There's nothing about anyone entering at 8 pm or 9 pm; in fact, it's strictly forbidden. So far, the only order about candles I've seen is that they should stop paying for wax candles and only give him tallow candles. Lepel did ask how much light Fritz should be allowed per day, but either FW didn't answer, or Preuss left that part out.

Ugh. Preuss, I am not in a position to go to Berlin and inspect the original order to see if you printed the whole thing or not! And I think it's part of a huge collection of documents that would be much too expensive to order.

3. selenak, can you think of any example of an 18th century kid getting in trouble with their parents for ~not~ learning Latin? It's not necessary, but it would be nice as an example to illustrate just *how* out of step with his times FW was. (I know he was supposed to learn Latin, but by the time he was 10 and could barely read or count, I think his parents had bigger problems than "can't read Latin".)

I'll be back with more questions as I work my way through this insanely long list of claims that need citing!

Re: Citation questions

[selenak]

1.) It's in his letters to Fritz' governors, and yes, you say, "obviously, but where exactly" - don't know by heart, but would advise to check out either Eva Ziebura's books or Christian von Krockow, because I seem to recall they both quote from those FW letters as an example of how his paternal mind worked. (No, I can't check myself right now.)

2.) Shaving: If you're FW or most 18th century noblemen, I'd say "shaving" is included in cleaning your face. I mean, I could be wrong, but this was not a beard friendly era, the occasional moustache not withstanding, and FW was a hygiene partisan who hated Fritz looking sloppy. My instinct is to assume that lackey did shave him.

Candle: Lehndorff tells the story when he visits Küstrin, I think, as he's heard it (i.e. as a urban legend by then). However, Fritz when he writes to Wilhelmine when they're discussing ghosts mentions reading late into the night in candle light and hearing something that turned out to be a rat. Also, while Fritz wasn't allowed to read anything he actually enjoyed, he was allowed and encouraged to read the bible. For which you need artificial light, especially in winter time.

3.) Not in trouble exactly (at least not that Roberts mentions), but young future G3, otherwise a good student, did not like learning Latin and said so. (Or rather wrote so in his notebook, I think.) Of course, he's a generation removed, and it might be worth checking whether there's anything from G2's or Fritz of Wales' school days available.
Two generations above Fritz, there is Grandpa F1 who was humiliated by his teacher Danckelmann, having to write "Fritz will always remain an ass" in Latin and German as an exercise and/or punishment for not being good enough in Latin, I have the exact quote in my write up on the F1 biographies at Rheinsberg.

Pastor Schubert‘s letter about Gundling‘s death and funeral

[selenak]

…included in the article Mildred sent me is here, since it‘s so long I would have to separate it by many comments, and Cahn hasn‘t put up yet a new post, so I posted it at Rheinsberg right away:

https://rheinsberg.dreamwidth.org/74979.html

I‘m in the train right now, hence had the time to translate right away.

[selenak]

There's a new vid out on Lord Hervey! By and large the vidder does a good job, though I was a bit surprised Algarotti was left out, while the friendship with Lady Mary was left in and was presented as "there were rumours they had an affair". (Hervey doesn't get heterosexualized, the vidder talks amply about his long term affair with Stephen Fox and about rumors he did have sex with Fritz of Wales.) Ditto for saying that "there were rumors" he had an affair with Queen Caroline, because I for sure haven't come across the later, other than the authors of that essay about Hervey and Fritz of Wales (I think? or maybe one of the biographers?) pointing out all the emphasis on Caroline and Lord Hervey seeing each other as ersatz mother and son (while having fallen out with their actual mother and son) disguises Caroline was only 13 years older than Hervey, not quite the same generation anymore but not really old enough for a mother figure, either, and basically the whole "mother figure!" thing serves to make their closeness respectable and scandal free. Which I thought at the time was a good point.

Mind you, not that whoeever wrote this and myself think Caroline and Hervey were lovers. Hervey was a career courtier, for starters, and he knew very well any chance of advancement would be over instantly if G2 as much as suspected him on hitting on his wife. Also, going by the way he talks about Caroline in his memoris - where she's the indisputed star -, I wasn't reminded so much of an ersatz mother figure but of the relationship between female stars (be they opera divas or film stars) and their gay fans.

As for whether or not Hervey and Lady Mary (pre Algarotti? post Algarotti?) were not just friends but friends with benefits: actually not even Pope in his diatribe against either and both accuses them of this, but then again Pope was a thwarted admirer of Lady Mary himself and a homophobe so probably might not have wanted to believe Hervey scored where he could not. I didn't have the impression from the few surviving letters, especially since we have counter examples of how they both respectively sounded when they were in love with other people. It's also worth pointing out that Lady Mary was older than Hervey, and had survived smallpox with scars, wwhose certified relationships with women (both his wife and Fritz' of Wales mistress) tended to be with younger beauties.

[mildred_of_midgard]

Neat!

There's a new vid out on Lord Hervey! By and large the vidder does a good job, though I was a bit surprised Algarotti was left out

Lord Hervey: Yeah, especially as I succeeded in scoring with him!

Andrew Mitchell: But I was the tastiest dish.

Lady Mary: *sob*

I wasn't reminded so much of an ersatz mother figure but of the relationship between female stars (be they opera divas or film stars) and their gay fans.

That makes a lot of sense!

Fredersdorf letters: translation questions

[mildred_of_midgard]

As I try to finish up the Fredersdorf essay, I'm polishing the translations, and I have some questions:

Mit unserm Bombardement gehet es noch immer gut vonstatten. Die gantze Prager-Neustadt liegt in der Asche. Die Noth ist nach Aussage einiger gestern angekommenen Deserteurs in der Stadt schon sehr groß, besonders fehlet es an Fleisch, zu dessen Ersetzung man bereits viele Pferde schlachten müssen, und würde das Pfund vor 2 Xer verkauft. Zu obiger Nachricht von dem bey Kuttenberg vorgefallenen Scharmützel dienet auch noch, dass bey dieser Gelegenheit das letzte oesterreichsche Magazin, so sie unweit dieser Stadt gehabt, auch noch in unsre Hände gekommen. Aus dem Reiche werden wir nun auch bald viel neues hören, der Anfang ist schon da, und könnte ich Ew. Hochwohlgeb. mündlich darüber sprechen, wollte ich Ihren vieles erzählen, was man der Feder nicht gar wohl anvertrauen kann. Indessen wird alles zum Ruhm unseres großen Monarchen bekannt werden.

Is he saying he's expecting news from within the HRE?

So er ist mir unter die Souportination geben und soll bey der Livre essen und schlaffen, hartte sache.

"So he has been placed under my authority and is to eat and sleep by the book, a real challenge."

Does that seem like a reasonable translation?

Re: Fredersdorf letters: translation questions

[selenak]

"Aus dem Reiche" - yes, from within the HRE.

"So he has been placed under my authority and is to eat and sleep by the book, a real challenge."

Does that seem like a reasonable translation?

Yes.