I, otoh, have never heard the gloves in winter story. Also as I recall - and of course I could be wrong - it they weren‘t kid cadets but actual soldiers. I think that might be from Seckendorff‘s letter to Eugene about Fritz‘ daily schedule and how he looks like an old man at 12.
Maybe so, but that's not what many of his biographers say:
Asprey:
He put his son into uniform at the age of five. Characteristically, in a day when other princelings wore colonel's rank in the cradle, the Crown Prince of Prussia became a non-commissioned officer charged with drilling a group of nobles his own age.
MacDonogh:
At the age of six, Frederick had his own company of cadets to drill: 131 boys to command at will.
Schieder:
When the Prince was only six years old, the king created a "Crown Prince Cadet Company" for him of a hundred and thirty boys. ("Knaben")
Goldsmith:
When he was five years old a miniature cadet corps was organized for his benefit.
Abbott:
When the child was but six years of age his father organized a miniature soldiers’ company for him, consisting of one hundred lads.
Oster:
When his son was five years old, he named him the colonel of a cadet regiment that consisted of 131 boys. ("Jungen")
Now, the regiment Fritz had that was given to AW in 1730, that was a real regiment. But the one he was given when he was five or six, I haven't found anyone saying that. Blanning doesn't specify the age, but he cites Schieder as his source, so presumably he also means boys.
I'll check Seckendorff when I get the chance, but I don't remember it being in there, and that letter was written 8 years later (at which point I think Fritz had a real regiment).
As for gloves...
Blanning:
It was in 1724 that foreign diplomats began to report incidents of paternal disapproval of what was judged to be "effeminacy"— the wearing of gloves when hunting on a cold day, for example, or the use of a silver three-pronged fork rather than the steel two-pronged implement favored by soldiers.
Lavisse:
He had a terrible scene with his son for wearing gloves at the hunt on a bitter cold day.
Mitford:
He was always in trouble: was beaten for wearing gloves in cold weather.
Oster:
Friedrich Wilhelm needed no great excuse to get physical...It sufficed if the crown prince dared to put on gloves on an ice cold day in the middle of winter.
I suspect the reason you've never encountered the glove story is I suspect 20th and 21st century references go back to Lavisse (Blanning is the only one who gives a citation, and his is Lavisse), and I suspect Lavisse gets it from a French envoy report (probably Rottembourg). As you can see from Oster, the story has entered German scholarship, but I suspect only recently.
I will do some more digging into primary sources as I get the chance. If I could kick this insomnia, it would help! (If not for the insomnia, Fredersdorf would be freaking done by now.)
I don't recall having read either of these in a primary source.
(Blanning mentions the glove thing - hunting trip winter 1724, "disapproval" instead of out-right beating - and sources it to foreign diplomat reports via Lavisse. p. 130 ... checking Lavisse, it's actually page 129/130, and he has one footnote for a whole bunch of anecdotes, which goes back to Seckendorff (via Förster) and Rottenburg. See page 432 in Lavisse, footnote 80. No idea if those actually mention ALL of the anecdotes he recounts (I didn't check Förster).)
... okay, while I was checking that, you already found it yourself - except maybe for Lavisse's footnote?
I'm skipping the soldiers then, the only thing I knew was what Blanning says about the tin soldiers anecdote at exactly that age, not the bit about actual soldiers.
(By the way, in case you were wondering, I did see and bookmark your question re: French archives, but I really can't promise that I'll have the time or inclination to dive into that any time soon.)
I had found Lavisse's footnote long ago, including the fact that he has one footnote for the whole series of anecdotes, which is why I suspect but cannot prove he got the glove story from Rottembourg. I remember ascertaining recently that the only thing in Seckendorff in Förster is Fritz looking like an old man at the age of 12, but I'll double check, since Selena remembers the soldiers maybe being there. (I just remember Seckendorff talking about Fritz's regimental duties wearing him down, but not that he got his first drilling responsibilities at age 5.)
Yeah, I noticed Blanning says lead soldiers. Maybe it's worth tracking that down, though I see his citation is a 1988 German historian, Venohr. Nobody cites primary sources!
(And I will never publish at this rate, because it takes forever to track down all the primary sources. :P)
(By the way, in case you were wondering, I did see and bookmark your question re: French archives, but I really can't promise that I'll have the time or inclination to dive into that any time soon.)
Not to worry! A few days ago, I remembered that the friend I've recently been in touch with speaks better French than I do, and does 17th century French genealogical research (she's Canadian). I asked her to look into it for me (you know me, I'm shameless about asking for favors!), and she confirmed a couple days ago that she couldn't find an online catalogue or even much information. She gave me a very general email address for all correspondence to the archive she *thinks* is the right archive and suggested emailing them. She also thought it was weird that there was so little info and no catalogue in sight, and said some national stereotypes have a kernel of truth!
I've been meaning to mention this.
I'm going to email them and see what happens. Not expecting much other than "If you come to France, you can review the documents in the reading room" or possibly "Yes, we do charge 50 euros a page to scan them for you." But we'll see.
I also remembered that my wife speaks enough Italian to get around Italy, and if after some more dedicated poking at the Florence and Turin archives than my previous half-hearted effort, I can't figure out how to order scans, I've already threatened to enlist her in my shameless asking of favors. :P I would love to see if Karl von Keith's duel is on record with more details, not to mention the other side of the story!
Also, thanks for checking and thanks for your help! I was feeling rather discouraged that of the first 4 Peter Keith citations I grabbed at random from my list of hundreds, 3 I couldn't find. When you pointed me to Kramer, things started looking up again!
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-11 05:22 pm (UTC)Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-11 05:48 pm (UTC)Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-12 12:29 am (UTC)* Fritz getting a company of kid cadets to drill at age 5/6
* FW beating Fritz for wearing gloves in winter
?
I've seen these claims a million times, but never with an indication where they're from.
Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-12 05:26 am (UTC)Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-12 01:31 pm (UTC)Asprey:
He put his son into uniform at the age of five. Characteristically, in a day when other princelings wore colonel's rank in the cradle, the Crown Prince of Prussia became a non-commissioned officer charged with drilling a group of nobles his own age.
MacDonogh:
At the age of six, Frederick had his own company of cadets to drill: 131 boys to command at will.
Schieder:
When the Prince was only six years old, the king created a "Crown Prince Cadet Company" for him of a hundred and thirty boys. ("Knaben")
Goldsmith:
When he was five years old a miniature cadet corps was organized for his benefit.
Abbott:
When the child was but six years of age his father organized a miniature soldiers’ company for him, consisting of one hundred lads.
Oster:
When his son was five years old, he named him the colonel of a cadet regiment that consisted of 131 boys. ("Jungen")
Now, the regiment Fritz had that was given to AW in 1730, that was a real regiment. But the one he was given when he was five or six, I haven't found anyone saying that. Blanning doesn't specify the age, but he cites Schieder as his source, so presumably he also means boys.
I'll check Seckendorff when I get the chance, but I don't remember it being in there, and that letter was written 8 years later (at which point I think Fritz had a real regiment).
As for gloves...
Blanning:
It was in 1724 that foreign diplomats began to report incidents of paternal disapproval of what was judged to be "effeminacy"— the wearing of gloves when hunting on a cold day, for example, or the use of a silver three-pronged fork rather than the steel two-pronged implement favored by soldiers.
Lavisse:
He had a terrible scene with his son for wearing gloves at the hunt on a bitter cold day.
Mitford:
He was always in trouble: was beaten for wearing gloves in cold weather.
Oster:
Friedrich Wilhelm needed no great excuse to get physical...It sufficed if the crown prince dared to put on gloves on an ice cold day in the middle of winter.
I suspect the reason you've never encountered the glove story is I suspect 20th and 21st century references go back to Lavisse (Blanning is the only one who gives a citation, and his is Lavisse), and I suspect Lavisse gets it from a French envoy report (probably Rottembourg). As you can see from Oster, the story has entered German scholarship, but I suspect only recently.
I will do some more digging into primary sources as I get the chance. If I could kick this insomnia, it would help! (If not for the insomnia, Fredersdorf would be freaking done by now.)
Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-12 01:38 pm (UTC)(Blanning mentions the glove thing - hunting trip winter 1724, "disapproval" instead of out-right beating - and sources it to foreign diplomat reports via Lavisse. p. 130 ... checking Lavisse, it's actually page 129/130, and he has one footnote for a whole bunch of anecdotes, which goes back to Seckendorff (via Förster) and Rottenburg. See page 432 in Lavisse, footnote 80. No idea if those actually mention ALL of the anecdotes he recounts (I didn't check Förster).)
... okay, while I was checking that, you already found it yourself - except maybe for Lavisse's footnote?
I'm skipping the soldiers then, the only thing I knew was what Blanning says about the tin soldiers anecdote at exactly that age, not the bit about actual soldiers.
(By the way, in case you were wondering, I did see and bookmark your question re: French archives, but I really can't promise that I'll have the time or inclination to dive into that any time soon.)
Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-12 01:59 pm (UTC)Yeah, I noticed Blanning says lead soldiers. Maybe it's worth tracking that down, though I see his citation is a 1988 German historian, Venohr. Nobody cites primary sources!
(And I will never publish at this rate, because it takes forever to track down all the primary sources. :P)
(By the way, in case you were wondering, I did see and bookmark your question re: French archives, but I really can't promise that I'll have the time or inclination to dive into that any time soon.)
Not to worry! A few days ago, I remembered that the friend I've recently been in touch with speaks better French than I do, and does 17th century French genealogical research (she's Canadian). I asked her to look into it for me (you know me, I'm shameless about asking for favors!), and she confirmed a couple days ago that she couldn't find an online catalogue or even much information. She gave me a very general email address for all correspondence to the archive she *thinks* is the right archive and suggested emailing them. She also thought it was weird that there was so little info and no catalogue in sight, and said some national stereotypes have a kernel of truth!
I've been meaning to mention this.
I'm going to email them and see what happens. Not expecting much other than "If you come to France, you can review the documents in the reading room" or possibly "Yes, we do charge 50 euros a page to scan them for you." But we'll see.
I also remembered that my wife speaks enough Italian to get around Italy, and if after some more dedicated poking at the Florence and Turin archives than my previous half-hearted effort, I can't figure out how to order scans, I've already threatened to enlist her in my shameless asking of favors. :P I would love to see if Karl von Keith's duel is on record with more details, not to mention the other side of the story!
Re: Citation questions
Date: 2025-02-12 02:16 pm (UTC)