Having for a mysterious reason been brushing up my Voltaire knowledge, I want to share witih you this bit from when he's in England and debatting Milton's Paradise Lost with the Brits. Voltaire admires parts of this poem, but thinks the episode with Sin and Death sucks. For some reason one of the things he objects to is the Satan/Sin incest producing Death - never mind Madame Denis in the future), Voltaire's first breakout literary work was Oedipe - but mainly it's Death and Sin outstaying their welcome as allegories and being just gross. As his his wont, he's being sarcastic and making fun while voicing his objections. This calls for British retalation defending the honor of England's second most respected poet (Shakespeare being the first) of all time (at least in this era). Whereupon either Young or Lord Hervey (depending on the source) "matched in mind Voltaire's slight, emaciated figure with the meagre shadow of Milton's Death" and speaks this impromptu verse:
You are so witty, profligate and thin, At once we think thee Milton, Death and Sin.
For the completely unmysterious reasons of Peter Keith, I ran into this Chesterfield quote the other day, which makes it clear that Chesterfield is the anti-Voltaire and vice versa:
Voltaire cannot help but lard* everything he writes, and that it would be better to suppress; since in the end one must not disturb the established order. Let each one think as he wants, or rather as he can, but let him not communicate his ideas, as soon as they are of a nature to be able to disturb the peace of society.
* "larder": not sure exactly what the nuance here is, but the gist is clear.
Chesterfield: Peace for our time!
Voltaire: The pen is mightier than the sword!
This is very on-brand for Chesterfield; Wikipedia tells me that in his most famous work, Letters to His Son, he wrote advice like, "However frivolous a company may be, still, while you are among them, do not show them, by your inattention, that you think them so; but rather take their tone, and conform in some degree to their weakness, instead of manifesting your contempt for them." Thus inspiring Selena's fave Samuel Johnson to quip that the letters taught "the morals of a whore, and the manners of a dancing-master."
Or as Groucho Marx would one day say, "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
Argh, Milton is one of the holes in my reading -- I've always meant to read Paradise Lost. One of these days, perhaps.
For some reason one of the things he objects to is the Satan/Sin incest producing Death - never mind Madame Denis in the future)
Heh.
This calls for British retalation defending the honor of England's second most respected poet (Shakespeare being the first) of all time (at least in this era).
I mean, I think that still might be considered the case (which is why I feel bad about not ever having read it!)
You are so witty, profligate and thin, At once we think thee Milton, Death and Sin.
Now, I have read parts of Paradise Lost, or rather, I have heard to an audio compilation of the highlights, but I have not read the entire thing, so I went and looked up the Satan/Sin/Death incest Voltaire objected to as gross, and after I'll quote the summary, you'll see where our man V is coming from, for:
Satan gave birth to Sin out of his head; she was, at least to Satan, beautiful enough to have sex with; after they were all thrown into Hell, she gave birth to Satan's child, Death; he, in turn, ran after and raped his mother; the resulting birth tore up Sin's lower parts so badly that her legs are now a snaky tail, which is not surprising because the babies were all hellhounds. The beasts continually chase around her, barking and snapping at each other, and regularly crawl back into her womb, gnawing on her intestines from the inside, then claw their way back out.
....yeah. Milton, did you sign up for Crueltide? Also, Voltaire, I'm with you. No wonder they cut that out in the highlights compilation I listened to!
Well, obviously there's some inspiration there, though I will say that giving Sin Athena's origin story when Athena is one of the few Greek gods who didn't have an incestous relationship with another god is somewhat ironical - and even the Greeks didn't go double generational incest and intestine gnawing. (That sounds more Egyptian, except I doubt Milton the Cromwell fan and Puritan would have had access to Egyptian mythology, other than via Greek sources, and the Greeks only bothered with the Isis and Osiris myth, not with the whole convoluted creational myths.
Anyway: he's clearly going for fan unservice and wants to make Satan, Sin and Death as unsexy and gross as possible, since we're supposed to root against them and stay away from them. Since he simultanously famously came up with the first Byronic Satan who's had fans ever since, he only partly succeeded.
(BTW, what Voltaire did like about Paradise Lost were the depictions of Adam and Eve, which he found "tender" and "very human", and also that there was an emphasis on a loving creator God and not on a punishing wrathful God. (He read Milton - and a lot of other English literature - as part of his deep dive and speed language learning at the start of his exile.)
Okay, uh, your summary did inspire me to go read the source, for that bit at least. That's something else!
I note in addition that Sin was beautiful when Satan knew her in Heaven, though by the time she'd gone through the double round of incest births he didn't recognize her any more. (as I suppose makes sense, with her snaky-tail hellhound thing going on, ick!) Which I suppose is trying to make its own point as well. But yeah, I can see Voltaire making fun of all that!
And yes, heh, Milton did not really succeed in making Satan unsexy as a whole...
Aw, Voltaire <3 I am also quite impressed by him reading Milton as a second language learner! I find Milton reasonably hard going even with English as my first language :P
He supposedly learned English in 6 months, and 5 years later I'm still going, "Is 'kleinsten' right?", but then I suppose he was doing an involuntary immersion course, and I'm chipping away in 15-minute increments per day, if that. ;)
even the Greeks didn't go double generational incest and intestine gnawing.
I mean, not at the same time, but Zeus had sex with his mother, sisters, and daughters at various times, and Prometheus gets his liver gnawed on by an eagle, so it sounds pretty Greek to me!
Since he simultanously famously came up with the first Byronic Satan who's had fans ever since, he only partly succeeded.
Hahaha, trufax.
I read Paradise Lost back in college, but not since then, so my memories are extremely hazy. Thank you for the refresher and Voltairean commentary!
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2024-11-22 10:31 am (UTC)You are so witty, profligate and thin,
At once we think thee Milton, Death and Sin.
Alas nobody describes Voltaire's reaction.
Voltaire
Date: 2024-11-22 08:28 pm (UTC)For the completely unmysterious reasons of Peter Keith, I ran into this Chesterfield quote the other day, which makes it clear that Chesterfield is the anti-Voltaire and vice versa:
Voltaire cannot help but lard* everything he writes, and that it would be better to suppress; since in the end one must not disturb the established order. Let each one think as he wants, or rather as he can, but let him not communicate his ideas, as soon as they are of a nature to be able to disturb the peace of society.
* "larder": not sure exactly what the nuance here is, but the gist is clear.
Chesterfield: Peace for our time!
Voltaire: The pen is mightier than the sword!
This is very on-brand for Chesterfield; Wikipedia tells me that in his most famous work, Letters to His Son, he wrote advice like, "However frivolous a company may be, still, while you are among them, do not show them, by your inattention, that you think them so; but rather take their tone, and conform in some degree to their weakness, instead of manifesting your contempt for them." Thus inspiring Selena's fave Samuel Johnson to quip that the letters taught "the morals of a whore, and the manners of a dancing-master."
Or as Groucho Marx would one day say, "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 06:32 am (UTC)Argh, Milton is one of the holes in my reading -- I've always meant to read Paradise Lost. One of these days, perhaps.
For some reason one of the things he objects to is the Satan/Sin incest producing Death - never mind Madame Denis in the future)
Heh.
This calls for British retalation defending the honor of England's second most respected poet (Shakespeare being the first) of all time (at least in this era).
I mean, I think that still might be considered the case (which is why I feel bad about not ever having read it!)
You are so witty, profligate and thin,
At once we think thee Milton, Death and Sin.
Heeeee! This is awesome.
no subject
Date: 2024-11-25 07:54 pm (UTC)Satan gave birth to Sin out of his head; she was, at least to Satan, beautiful enough to have sex with; after they were all thrown into Hell, she gave birth to Satan's child, Death; he, in turn, ran after and raped his mother; the resulting birth tore up Sin's lower parts so badly that her legs are now a snaky tail, which is not surprising because the babies were all hellhounds. The beasts continually chase around her, barking and snapping at each other, and regularly crawl back into her womb, gnawing on her intestines from the inside, then claw their way back out.
....yeah. Milton, did you sign up for Crueltide? Also, Voltaire, I'm with you. No wonder they cut that out in the highlights compilation I listened to!
no subject
Date: 2024-11-25 08:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-11-26 09:50 am (UTC)Anyway: he's clearly going for fan unservice and wants to make Satan, Sin and Death as unsexy and gross as possible, since we're supposed to root against them and stay away from them. Since he simultanously famously came up with the first Byronic Satan who's had fans ever since, he only partly succeeded.
(BTW, what Voltaire did like about Paradise Lost were the depictions of Adam and Eve, which he found "tender" and "very human", and also that there was an emphasis on a loving creator God and not on a punishing wrathful God. (He read Milton - and a lot of other English literature - as part of his deep dive and speed language learning at the start of his exile.)
no subject
Date: 2024-11-27 06:31 am (UTC)I note in addition that Sin was beautiful when Satan knew her in Heaven, though by the time she'd gone through the double round of incest births he didn't recognize her any more. (as I suppose makes sense, with her snaky-tail hellhound thing going on, ick!) Which I suppose is trying to make its own point as well. But yeah, I can see Voltaire making fun of all that!
And yes, heh, Milton did not really succeed in making Satan unsexy as a whole...
Aw, Voltaire <3 I am also quite impressed by him reading Milton as a second language learner! I find Milton reasonably hard going even with English as my first language :P
no subject
Date: 2024-11-27 04:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-12-07 04:28 am (UTC)He supposedly learned English in 6 months, and 5 years later I'm still going, "Is 'kleinsten' right?", but then I suppose he was doing an involuntary immersion course, and I'm chipping away in 15-minute increments per day, if that. ;)
no subject
Date: 2024-12-07 04:25 am (UTC)I mean, not at the same time, but Zeus had sex with his mother, sisters, and daughters at various times, and Prometheus gets his liver gnawed on by an eagle, so it sounds pretty Greek to me!
Since he simultanously famously came up with the first Byronic Satan who's had fans ever since, he only partly succeeded.
Hahaha, trufax.
I read Paradise Lost back in college, but not since then, so my memories are extremely hazy. Thank you for the refresher and Voltairean commentary!