Further developments: I tracked down the original of Manteuffel's report to Brühl on the episode of Knyphausen's illegitimate child (which is the episode I'm now editing in the biography). Manteuffel says some rumors attribute the fathering of the child to a certain lieutenant general, others a certain major general, both of whom are close friends of hers, and still others to some low officer.
Manteuffel doesn't name names, but Schwerin the victor of Mollwitz was a lieutenant general at the time (it was Fritz who promoted him to field marshal in 1740), so that is presumably him. The major general is presumably the other Schwerin we found. It's good to know there were multiple rumors going around in 1735 that would account for the multiple fathers we've found named!
In other news, supposedly ("dit on") the Baroness confessed to having been pregnant in December 1735 for the 3rd (!) time since her widowhood (a little over 4 years earlier).
Manteuffel keeps emphasizing that she paid the fine without difficulty (which is the opposite of what Voltaire said, namely that she was ruined!)
He says that everyone is surprised that FW is coming down so hard on her when he's usually pretty lenient with women and girls who give birth to illegitimate children, and everyone is speculating why. Some think it's because he's so pissed off at her late husband (whom he dismissed for having been suspected of involvement in the 1730 escape attempt), but others, Manteuffel included, think it's "amor habendi". I assume that means she's so rich he can fine her a lot.
It's difficult to overstate how much I love the Dresden archives for their extensive digitization efforts. <333 It was driving me crazy that I was relying on a summary by Weber when I'm trying to use primary sources as much as possible.
In particular, because I couldn't tell if it was Weber who declined to name the Baroness von Knyphausen as the woman in question, or Manteuffel, but I extremely suspected Manteuffel wouldn't hesitate, so I needed to go look at the original. And indeed, the anonymization was done by Weber.
ETA: Also, if this is her third pregnancy, we have a number of missing children to account for! Probably early death, as we discussed, but someone should write a melodramatic novel anyway. :)
Three illegitimate children in four years seems somewhat unlikely, not least because the body needs some time to recover, even for noblewomen who don`t nurse, and I doubt she immediately had sex again after giving birth, - maybe the rest were stillbirths? If there was a rest; I could also believe Manteuffel is spicing things up a bit, based on the true fact of one kid (and maybe one stillbirth).
Mind you, if she did have all those pregnancies in so short a time immediately after having been widowed, it may be that her marriage with Oriane's late father had not been exactly passionate...
FW (and Fritz after him) was definitely described as avaricious by all and sunder.
Voltaire describing her as ruined by FW: figures. This is the man who describes Wilhelmine as being thrown out of the window for dramatic effect.
You are, as ever, the best detective. And I'm still ragingly curious as to whether it was Schwerin the victor of Mollwitz and if so, why they didn't marry - was his wife (assuming he had one, which in FW's Prussia is a given) still alive?
Three illegitimate children in four years seems somewhat unlikely, not least because the body needs some time to recover
Au contraire, the royal genealogist is here to say that it was extremely common in the eighteenth century. That's what happens when you don't have birth control!
She actually did it herself multiple times during her first marriage, in which she had legitimate kids (of whom all but the first survived to adulthood, and the first lived to be 2 years old) in 1717, 1719, 1721, 1722, 1724, 1725, 1727, 1729, and 1731. Given that her last son was born 1 week before her husband died, I would say it was a passionate marriage and she was quite fertile.
SD also did it multiple times: 1707, 1709, 1710, 1711, 1712, 1713, 1714, 1716, 1723, 1726, 1730.
Maria Theresa did it multiple times: 1737, 1738, 1740, 1741, 1742, 1743, 1745, 1746, 1747, 1748, 1750, 1751, 1752, 1754, 1755, 1756.
Louis XV's wife Marie Leszczynska did it multiple times: 1727 (twins), 1728, 1729, 1730, 1732, 1733, 1734, 1736, 1737.
Peter's mother did it at least once that we know of: 1711, 1713, 1714, and since the genealogies tend to list a daughter in between 1711 and 1713, may have done 4 births in 4 years.
Suhm's wife did it multiple times: 1722, 1723, 1725, 1726, 1728, 1730.
Grandpa Wartensleben's 2 wives did it multiple times each: 1680, 1683, 1683, 1864, 1694, 1696, 1697, 1700, 1702, 1703, 1707, 1709, 1710.
Caroline of Ansbach did it multiple times: 1707, 1709, 1711, 1713, 1717, 1721, 1723, 1724 (plus miscarriages and stillbirths).
Maria Carolina did it multiple times: 1772, 1773, 1775, 1775 (yes, January to November of the same year), 1777, 1779, 1780, 1781, 1782, 1783, 1784, 1786, 1787, 1788, 1790, 1792, 1793.
Fritz's sister Charlotte did it multiple times: 1735, 1736, 1737, 1738, 1739, 1740, 1742, 1743, 1745, 1746, 1748, 1749, 1752.
Both of Philip V's wives did it, one multiple times: 1707, 1709, 1712, 1713, 1716, 1717, 1718, 1720, 1726, 1727, 1729.
Both of Moltke's wives did it multiple times: 1736, 1737, 1738, 1740, 1741, 1743, 1745, 1746, 1748, 1750, 1751, 1753, 1755, 1762, 1764, 1765, 1767, 1769, 1770, 1773.
Ferdinand's wife-niece did it multiple times: 1761, 1769, 1770, 1771, 1772, 1776, 1779
Catherine I of Russia did it multiple times: 1704, 1705, 1707, 1708, 1709, 1713, 1714, 1715, 1717, 1718, 1723, 1724.
Katte's mother did it only once, but she did it in the space of 2 years: 1704, 1705, 1706.
And I chose these examples because a majority of the births are ones where the kid lived at least a few months, and mostly a lot more than that. Non-stop pregnancy was a way of life for many women, Charlotte von Knyphausen among them.
Actually, on the one hand with modern medicine, but on the other hand with birth control, my own mother had 3 kids in 4 years: 1983, 1985, 1987.
So I find it very plausible that she gave birth 3 times in 4 years, given her previous history of giving birth every year or two.
And I'm still ragingly curious as to whether it was Schwerin the victor of Mollwitz and if so, why they didn't marry - was his wife (assuming he had one, which in FW's Prussia is a given) still alive?
Yes, according to Wikipedia, he married his first wife in 1708, and she didn't die until 1754. They had children in 1711, 1712, and 1715 (i.e., 3 in 4 years). Then he married his second wife and thereby legitimized their illegitimate children from 1717 and 1721.
If you ask me, the fact that he was having illegitimate children in 1717 and 1721 makes it more plausible that he was having them in the 1730s!
That's a good question! I had a quick glance at Varnhagen, but he says Schwerin and his second wife had no children; no mention of earlier illegitimate children (per Wikipedia). If I find out, I'll let you know!
I should add that Charlotte von Knyphausen embodies a different feature of the 18th century that surprised cahn: that first birth in 1717 took place when Charlotte was still 14 years old. (Her husband was 38.)
If you catch women early enough in their childbearing years, you can get a lot of kids out of them every 1-2 years! If, you know, they don't die in childbirth or have their organs ruined entirely*. I'm reminded of one of my great-grandmothers, who got started at age 14 and had 15 children live to adulthood, plus a few die as babies. I don't have birthdates, but she must have been doing the "3 kids in 4 years" thing numerous times.
* Not that she was married young (22), but I still wonder how Wilhelmine managed to get pregnant within about 10 days of her wedding and then never again, despite a loving marriage. Organ damage is still my best explanation.
Btw, I got curious and looked it up, and Marie Louise of Savoy, wife of Philip "the Frog" V, despite being married at 12, at least didn't start having children until she was 18. Not for lack of sex: she didn't want to consummate the marriage on her wedding night, and Philip wasn't going to make her, but when Grandpa Louis XIV found out, he was all, "No, you SHOW her who's boss! You rape that child!" (essentially) And then they did start having sex shortly thereafter.
In other words, our days of being stupendously grateful we don't live in the past are certainly coming to a middle.
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Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-26 11:25 am (UTC)Manteuffel doesn't name names, but Schwerin the victor of Mollwitz was a lieutenant general at the time (it was Fritz who promoted him to field marshal in 1740), so that is presumably him. The major general is presumably the other Schwerin we found. It's good to know there were multiple rumors going around in 1735 that would account for the multiple fathers we've found named!
In other news, supposedly ("dit on") the Baroness confessed to having been pregnant in December 1735 for the 3rd (!) time since her widowhood (a little over 4 years earlier).
Manteuffel keeps emphasizing that she paid the fine without difficulty (which is the opposite of what Voltaire said, namely that she was ruined!)
He says that everyone is surprised that FW is coming down so hard on her when he's usually pretty lenient with women and girls who give birth to illegitimate children, and everyone is speculating why. Some think it's because he's so pissed off at her late husband (whom he dismissed for having been suspected of involvement in the 1730 escape attempt), but others, Manteuffel included, think it's "amor habendi". I assume that means she's so rich he can fine her a lot.
It's difficult to overstate how much I love the Dresden archives for their extensive digitization efforts. <333 It was driving me crazy that I was relying on a summary by Weber when I'm trying to use primary sources as much as possible.
In particular, because I couldn't tell if it was Weber who declined to name the Baroness von Knyphausen as the woman in question, or Manteuffel, but I extremely suspected Manteuffel wouldn't hesitate, so I needed to go look at the original. And indeed, the anonymization was done by Weber.
ETA: Also, if this is her third pregnancy, we have a number of missing children to account for! Probably early death, as we discussed, but someone should write a melodramatic novel anyway. :)
Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-26 05:35 pm (UTC)Mind you, if she did have all those pregnancies in so short a time immediately after having been widowed, it may be that her marriage with Oriane's late father had not been exactly passionate...
FW (and Fritz after him) was definitely described as avaricious by all and sunder.
Voltaire describing her as ruined by FW: figures. This is the man who describes Wilhelmine as being thrown out of the window for dramatic effect.
You are, as ever, the best detective. And I'm still ragingly curious as to whether it was Schwerin the victor of Mollwitz and if so, why they didn't marry - was his wife (assuming he had one, which in FW's Prussia is a given) still alive?
Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-26 06:41 pm (UTC)Au contraire, the royal genealogist is here to say that it was extremely common in the eighteenth century. That's what happens when you don't have birth control!
She actually did it herself multiple times during her first marriage, in which she had legitimate kids (of whom all but the first survived to adulthood, and the first lived to be 2 years old) in 1717, 1719, 1721, 1722, 1724, 1725, 1727, 1729, and 1731. Given that her last son was born 1 week before her husband died, I would say it was a passionate marriage and she was quite fertile.
SD also did it multiple times: 1707, 1709, 1710, 1711, 1712, 1713, 1714, 1716, 1723, 1726, 1730.
Maria Theresa did it multiple times: 1737, 1738, 1740, 1741, 1742, 1743, 1745, 1746, 1747, 1748, 1750, 1751, 1752, 1754, 1755, 1756.
Louis XV's wife Marie Leszczynska did it multiple times: 1727 (twins), 1728, 1729, 1730, 1732, 1733, 1734, 1736, 1737.
Peter's mother did it at least once that we know of: 1711, 1713, 1714, and since the genealogies tend to list a daughter in between 1711 and 1713, may have done 4 births in 4 years.
Suhm's wife did it multiple times: 1722, 1723, 1725, 1726, 1728, 1730.
Grandpa Wartensleben's 2 wives did it multiple times each: 1680, 1683, 1683, 1864, 1694, 1696, 1697, 1700, 1702, 1703, 1707, 1709, 1710.
Caroline of Ansbach did it multiple times: 1707, 1709, 1711, 1713, 1717, 1721, 1723, 1724 (plus miscarriages and stillbirths).
Maria Carolina did it multiple times: 1772, 1773, 1775, 1775 (yes, January to November of the same year), 1777, 1779, 1780, 1781, 1782, 1783, 1784, 1786, 1787, 1788, 1790, 1792, 1793.
Fritz's sister Charlotte did it multiple times: 1735, 1736, 1737, 1738, 1739, 1740, 1742, 1743, 1745, 1746, 1748, 1749, 1752.
Both of Philip V's wives did it, one multiple times: 1707, 1709, 1712, 1713, 1716, 1717, 1718, 1720, 1726, 1727, 1729.
Both of Moltke's wives did it multiple times: 1736, 1737, 1738, 1740, 1741, 1743, 1745, 1746, 1748, 1750, 1751, 1753, 1755, 1762, 1764, 1765, 1767, 1769, 1770, 1773.
Ferdinand's wife-niece did it multiple times: 1761, 1769, 1770, 1771, 1772, 1776, 1779
Catherine I of Russia did it multiple times: 1704, 1705, 1707, 1708, 1709, 1713, 1714, 1715, 1717, 1718, 1723, 1724.
Katte's mother did it only once, but she did it in the space of 2 years: 1704, 1705, 1706.
And I chose these examples because a majority of the births are ones where the kid lived at least a few months, and mostly a lot more than that. Non-stop pregnancy was a way of life for many women, Charlotte von Knyphausen among them.
Actually, on the one hand with modern medicine, but on the other hand with birth control, my own mother had 3 kids in 4 years: 1983, 1985, 1987.
So I find it very plausible that she gave birth 3 times in 4 years, given her previous history of giving birth every year or two.
And I'm still ragingly curious as to whether it was Schwerin the victor of Mollwitz and if so, why they didn't marry - was his wife (assuming he had one, which in FW's Prussia is a given) still alive?
Yes, according to Wikipedia, he married his first wife in 1708, and she didn't die until 1754. They had children in 1711, 1712, and 1715 (i.e., 3 in 4 years). Then he married his second wife and thereby legitimized their illegitimate children from 1717 and 1721.
If you ask me, the fact that he was having illegitimate children in 1717 and 1721 makes it more plausible that he was having them in the 1730s!
Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-27 03:02 pm (UTC)Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-27 03:09 pm (UTC)Re: Baroness von Knyphausen's illegitimate child
Date: 2025-06-28 11:19 am (UTC)If you catch women early enough in their childbearing years, you can get a lot of kids out of them every 1-2 years! If, you know, they don't die in childbirth or have their organs ruined entirely*. I'm reminded of one of my great-grandmothers, who got started at age 14 and had 15 children live to adulthood, plus a few die as babies. I don't have birthdates, but she must have been doing the "3 kids in 4 years" thing numerous times.
* Not that she was married young (22), but I still wonder how Wilhelmine managed to get pregnant within about 10 days of her wedding and then never again, despite a loving marriage. Organ damage is still my best explanation.
Btw, I got curious and looked it up, and Marie Louise of Savoy, wife of Philip "the Frog" V, despite being married at 12, at least didn't start having children until she was 18. Not for lack of sex: she didn't want to consummate the marriage on her wedding night, and Philip wasn't going to make her, but when Grandpa Louis XIV found out, he was all, "No, you SHOW her who's boss! You rape that child!" (essentially) And then they did start having sex shortly thereafter.
In other words, our days of being stupendously grateful we don't live in the past are certainly coming to a middle.