cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 23

cahn

aaaaaand it's time for a new discussion post! :D (you guys are so fast!)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

There's more of us now! :D

From:

selenak

New post, new picspam, as I now can do screenshots. ;) Remember the 2003 movie My Name is Bach, discussed many an entry ago? Now with some illustrations. Also back when Mildred and self did discuss it, I hadn't even read the Fredersdorf letters and knew nothing of Amalie. Going back with new knowledge in my head does make a difference. As a quick reminder as to what it's about: a fictional rendering of the May 7th 1747 meeting of Fritz and the Bach, Johann Sebastian. Co-starring JSB's two sons, Friedemann and Carl Emmanuel (who has a steady, if not very well paid job with Fritz), and Amalie (representing all the sibs except for Wilhelmine) and therefore having a far worse relationship with Fritz than in rl). Fritz is played by Jürgen Vogel, Bach by Vadim Glowna, Amalie by Karoline Herfurth, Friedemann by Anatole Taubmann and Carl Emmanuel by Paul Herwig. Quantz: Philippe Vuillemier. Director: Dominique de Rivaz. Bavarian fellow director Detlev Buck has a cameo as a customs officer, and Michel Cassagne as Voltaire at the very end of the movie. (When he arrives in Prussia three years too early.) The movie has Hohenzollern dysfunction meet Bach family drama and is focused on the emotional push and pull between Fritz and Bach. The Fritz characterisation is that of jerk woobie, with emphasis on the jerk, but there are woobie moments, too. Bach learns at the start of the movie that he's going blind and is dealing (or not) with said news throughout the film, though he only tells his family near the end, and it influences his actions both towards his sons and towards Fritz somewhat, but in general, he's the model of a confident, fair minded artist and patriarch, and that Fritz both wants to adopt him as a so much preferable Dad and best him (because grr, argh, fathers) makes for the push and pull. And last but not least: the movie does deserve credit for presenting Fritz unambigeously as gay, both in dialogue (in his inner monologue, he refers to Katte as his lover), and in action (both towards Goltz, the amalgan figure taking over both Fredersdorf's and Eichel's rl roles, and towards Friedemann. To my knowledge, it's the first movie to do so.

As far as I can telll, the producers must have secured permission to film at Sanssouci, too, though you see far less of it since part of the subplot is that it's nearly finished and Fritz personal household and court is about to move there. So most of the action takes place at the older Potsdam Hohenzollern palace and in Carl Emmanuel's house, most of which I suspect to be studio constructions. Otoh you can tell this is no tv production, the lighting is more cinematic - and uses actual candlelight a lot; otoh, the wigs are something to behold and are, err, less than authentic. Someone liked the punkier versions of Mozart's wigs in Amadeus a lot. Now, on to the screencaps:

Quantz playing with Amalie, whose musical teacher (in additon to being Fritz' teacher) he is in this film. He's also presented as Bach's old friend.

Amalie, like I said, is the only one of the siblings to show up in this movie, and the only other sib mentioned is Wilhelmine (in the big climactic scene when Fritz tells Bach all about his backstory trauma). There is no indication in the movie Fritz has siblings other than these two, and the relationship between him and Amalie is presented as very hostile, with him roleplaying FW when with her (that is definitely the not so subtext). So basically she's also Heinrich and AW in addition to being herself?

Jürgen Vogel as Fritz:

Bach gets presented by Fritz with his theme that Bach's supposed to improvise on. The periwig Bach is wearing here looks downright plausible compared to later versions. Incidentally, Bach wearing the old fashioned periwig as opposed to everyone else does signal something about the generational difference. (And of course fits with his portraits.) By contrast, Voltaire stuck with the Louis XIV style periwig simply because he thought it worked better for him than the later style wigs as far as I know, and he may have been right.

For about 23 minutes into the movie, Fritz has been presented as a jerk. Then the first woobie moment happens, ironically enough while a soldier is whipped for desertion, Fritz sits watching in the rain on a horse, broods and flashes back to Katte's execution. This is when his inner monologue in German - arguing with the late FW that he and his lover Katte have done nothing to be ashamed of - is slightly but significantly different from the English subtitles.

Yep, that's a Küstrin flashback to Katte's headless corpse, which after all was ordered to lie until 2 pm where Fritz could see it.

Amalie's short affair with Friedemann Bach in this movie is entirely fictional, but the film does show her passion for music itself and deep admiration for all three Bachs. Here she's asking JSB for his autograph:

Here she's listening to Friedemann and Emmanuel playing a duet together:

The movie has its excentricities, one of which comes when Fritz shows Bach the Czarina's - in 1747, that would be Anna Iwanova - present, a camel, and they actually ride it from the old Potsdam palace to the Sanssouci building site.

Fritz in this film isn't depicted nearly as often with dogs as he's in Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria - at a guess, the actor wasn't as comfortable with them? - but there's one Italian greyhound often around, called Amore, and she's featured in the scene where Fritz has the dialogue he had in rl with D'Argens with Bach, complete with trying out his tomb (with a dog) and saying the "Quand j'erais ici, je erais sans souci" line, in French.

This shows Vogel actually has the right size for Fritz, btw, most of the other male actors are taller than him. Tomb trying out is a bit too much for Bach who takes his leave at this point to play at the Garnison Church, with the result that Fritz comes after him and actually shows up at the church concert. I included this shot because it shows the outside of the Sanssouci main biulding before the terrace was finished, and comparing it with my photo of where the tomb is actually located, this reconstruction has the right distance:

Concert time again, and now Bach's periwig has gone punk:

Bach hands over his composition that forms the core of the "Musical Sacrifice", the "King's Theme":

And now we get to the next big woobie sequence interrupting Fritz the jerk, at around 1.06. Fritz is dictating his not quite abolition but severe limitation on the use of torture in the middle of the night to an exhausted Goltz who, like I said, seems to be take over the rl roles of both Fredersdorf and Eichel, and - something I couldn't appreciate back in the day - seems to have stolen Heinrich's wig:

Something the movie gets right is Fritz' constant insomnia problem, during which he either is shown playing the flute or working, like here. Goltz at last pleads exhaustion due to it being 3 am.

Which Fritz takes as a signal to trauma role play. The true emotional sucker punch is of course that he doesn't play his younger self, no, he plays Katte (while Goltz has to play Fritz). Goltz protests at first with "you know this isn't good for you" but then gives in, and Fritz plays Katte and the moment where Katte agrees to flee with him:

Now, one and a half years ago, as mentioned, I didn't know yet much about the Fritz/Fredersdorf relationship and so I didn't quite agree with Mildred's complaint that the movie by replacing Fredersdorf with the fictional Goltz simultanously also alters the relationship to something that's far less mutual, that movie!Goltz comes across as just tired and wishing this would be over in this scene. Many a book later, I've changed my opinion and agree with her. The movie doesn't give the impression that Fritz cares about Goltz as Goltz, and while it's impossible to say how much or little Goltz cares (he does seem to be somewhat crushed in a later scene when Fritz is sarcastic towards him at Sanssouci and says just because he's the spymaster doesn't mean he means anything), this still makes for a far different relationship than the one coming across from the Fritz/Fredersdorf letters. This said? I now want a story where Fritz, not as a regular habit but as a one time only thing once in a blue night asks Fredersdorf to do this roleplay with him and Fredersdorf for a variety of reasons says yes.

Next: Fritz and Bach as hobbits. Aka the emotinal jiu-jitsu has given way to actually confiding in each other:

Enough so that Fritz at last talks about his backstory trauma (not just Katte - Dad in his entirety, and the loss of Wilhelmine due to him):

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yay screenshots! Thank you for the illustrated write-up!

the relationship between him and Amalie is presented as very hostile, with him roleplaying FW when with her (that is definitely the not so subtext). So basically she's also Heinrich and AW in addition to being herself?

Once I learned more about Fritz and AW, Heinrich, and Amalie, I mentally went over this movie and came to the same conclusion.

Yep, that's a Küstrin flashback to Katte's headless corpse, which after all was ordered to lie until 2 pm where Fritz could see it.

Which they put under a black cloth!

More seriously, I've paused this film many times on this shot (of course I did!) and still can't figure out: is he lying on some kind of cart, or is the wheel supposed to indicate that he was tortured? Given the context, I would think the latter, but since he wasn't historically tortured, and it kind of looks like some kind of wheelie device for removing the body...do you have an opinion?

the Czarina's - in 1747, that would be Anna Iwanova

Slight chronological correction: Anna died within a few days of Charles VI, if that makes it easier to remember (1740 was the year of monarchs dying), her infant son inherited, and Elizaveta's coup was a year later. So the Czarina in 1747 is Elizaveta already.

complete with trying out his tomb (with a dog)

That scene was so visceral for me in terms of getting across just *how* badly psychologically damaged he is.

something I couldn't appreciate back in the day - seems to have stolen Heinrich's wig:

LOL! That's hilarious! You're absolutely right.

Mildred's complaint that the movie by replacing Fredersdorf with the fictional Goltz simultanously also alters the relationship to something that's far less mutual, that movie!Goltz comes across as just tired and wishing this would be over in this scene.

Yeah, my main complaint here is that the roleplay scene opens with Goltz saying he's tired and wants to leave, and Fritz shoving him down and telling to stay put. That makes the roleplay extremely nonconsensual no matter *how* many pitying or longing looks Goltz gives Fritz in other scenes (and after you pointed it out, I watched more closely and agree that he does). It was a conscious choice of the filmmakers to send the message of an absolute monarch making an unwilling servant/courtier do something he said he doesn't want to do (and he's plausibly exhausted, as well as convinced this is a bad idea), and that colors my interpretation of the whole rest of the roleplay.

All they had to do was omit that, and I would have concluded they gave Fredersdorf a different name. But here we have Fritz conscripting unwilling therapists again. (At least Goltz doesn't have to get married?)

This said? I now want a story where Fritz, not as a regular habit but as a one time only thing once in a blue night asks Fredersdorf to do this roleplay with him and Fredersdorf for a variety of reasons says yes.

YES THIS. Have I not already said I want this? If not: I WANT THIS.

Next: Fritz and Bach as hobbits.

LOLOLOL, omg you're right. Well spotted. *dies*

You know, the Voltaire actor's nose is...actually pretty close.

Thanks as always for this!

Btw, since

From:

selenak - Date: 2021-01-30 09:37 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Bach is sympathetic, but still has no intention of becoming a permanent fixture in Berlin, because look, Fritz, he has his own family drama going on and is going blind. Being nicely turned down in his request for adoption is still being turned down, and so Fritz is in an extra bitchy mood when coming across Amalie, dressed as a man, and Friedemann in the stables. Amalie - who looks great in Prussian uniform, so if anyone wants to know how Wilhelmine in the getaway sequence from "Fiat Justitia" would have looked, somewhat like this - wants to run away with Friedemann. Friedemann is somewhat more realistic and also, as he tells her, attached to his head and very aware how running away with royals adventures end in her family. They do still have sex and that's when Fritz makes his presence known:

Friedemann (off screen) protests he's not the guy to go steady with for a princess:

Profile shot:

Making out (Amalie is now wigless):

And Fritz shows up to tell her she'll never be a guy and a Princess of Prussia is a valuable commodity. Now remember, Fritz and Amalie suposedly looked a lot alike. In the rest of the movie, this isn't true for the actors, but here it just about works:.

And then we get the follow up where Fritz (jealous because old Bach cares more for his sons than him) disses Friedemann and invades his personal space, and Friedemann returns the favor by invading Fritz' personal space back and flirting with him to the point of an almost kiss which is when he smugly basically says "sorry, not interested, see ya" and leaves a fuming Fritz behind:

And now, near the end, the move to Sanssouci has happened. Now, remember how in "Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria", they used the ballroom from the Neues Palais as Fritz' audience room/office in one of the scenes with Fredersdorf? Here, they use one of the audience rooms as Fritz' bedroom for the scene in which he disses Goltz (while preparing to have his medical treatment, hence him lying semi-naked on the bed:

And lastly, as the Bachs (that is, JSB and Friedemann) are leaving Brandenburg, they encounter a new arrival en route in the very final scene, who is interrogated by the same customs officer who let them in:

From:

cahn

Awwww, Amalie.

I laughed at Voltaire showing up, though! He looks rather hilarious (just in terms of the expression on his face). And like mildred said his nose is great!

Re: Mein Name ist Bach Revisited: Screencaps 2

From:

selenak - Date: 2021-01-30 09:31 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, this is the ONE post from my reading I'm going to allow myself to make today. I wish I could share all the Horowski goodies with you guys, but I will never sleep if I do, and I will certainly never learn German. So here goes.

The master of ceremonies who's come up a couple of times is Johann von Besser, son of a preacher from the Pomeranian Besser(er) family. Is there another preacher Besser(er) from the general vicinity who's come up a lot in our fandom? Yes, there is! (Was with Katte at the end, wrote the sympathetic account to Hans Heinrich.) Are they related? Probably!

Anyway, our future master of ceremonies Besser was planning to become a preacher, but he got into a notorious duel and that ended that career. He ended up in diplomacy instead (thanks to a bunch of connections), and the Great Elector (F1's father) sent him to the court of Charles II of England, as the Brandenburg Resident. As his performance with the sword duel and then his tennis matches with C2 proved, he was a very athletic guy.

Now, Brandenburg and Venice were about equal when it came to precedence at court. Which meant Besser and the Venetian envoy were always duking it out, trying to get the edge over the other. After the Venetian envoy managed to get ahead of Besser in making it to a door and entering a room before him, Besser knew if it happened again, that all the diplomats would have to write home that Venice clearly should treated with more respect than Brandenburg.

So when C2 died and his brother James became king, Besser and the Venetian guy were racing down the hall to be the first to present their compliments to the new king. Here is where I have to quote from Horowski:

Besser's martial arts lessons at Leipzig proved useful one last time. All diplomats could improvise this kind of speech, but only Besser was capable of talking and keeping his gaze fixed on the king while simultaneously grabbing the competition by the pants and giving him the most elegant kickboxer kick possible to shove him far into the back of the room, all without breaking stride in the delivery of his speech of compliments upon the accession to the throne. When he finished speaking, the room broke into spontaneous applause, and we should not be surprised, if from then on, his career had something to do with ceremonials.

His first day on the job as master of ceremonies for F1 was F1's homage ceremony in Prussia (no coronation yet), where Horowski gives a description that may be of interest to fanfic writers, if anyone wants to lead into the 1740 Strasbourg and Cleves trip with the Königsberg trip before it. He did such a good job--including tricking the Polish envoys into accepting chairs with lower backs than his boss, the new Elector, as part of a campaign to signal that an Elector was about the equal of a king (remember, the thing he'll have to go back on later, when his elector becomes king)--that F1 ennobles him, and that's when he becomes "von Besser."

He keeps his job until 1713, when F1 dies and FW kicks out all his father's unnecessary staff, and then he goes to Dresden and advises August the Strong until his death.

Next hilarious observation by Horowski is that, during his homage ceremony, the elector (here in his capacity as sovereign Duke of Prussia), did not make a speech. He points out that we are used to our rulers being on a permanent election campaign and making speeches all the livelong day, but early modern monarchs were trained to be pithy and make short observations that would not risk their dignity.

If an early modern monarch could talk well, that was a wasted stroke of luck among born rulers. How gladly would Frederick the Great have given speeches! But there were practically no occasions, and so his entourage alone got the full weight of his monologues.

Lol. I guess Leuthen was his chance to shine in more ways than one!

His entourage: *weary*
Catt: My real job title is Royal Listener!

Edited Date: 2021-01-30 02:52 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

That's absolutely priceless, and I so hope one day a film will include that sequence of Besser kickboxing the Venetian ambassador while keeping eye contact with James II. and delivering his congratulations speech.

James: for once in his life, not the most status conscious person in the room!

Lol. I guess Leuthen was his chance to shine in more ways than one!

No kidding. And good lord, yes, he'd have loved to give speeches. As it is, he was the King with the most modern PR work anyway, with all those articles he launched in the press.

Catt: My real job title is Royal Listener!

The other readers: So say we all!

but early modern monarchs were trained to be pithy and make short observations that would not risk their dignity.

Lord Hervey: Pity the training never seems to hold for Germans, then. Of course, I learned to tune out G2 a lot of the time, but not enough not to satirize him on that count, too, in my memoirs.

Re: F1's master of ceremonies

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-01-30 05:35 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: F1's master of ceremonies

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-10 06:24 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: F1's master of ceremonies

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-12 06:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, one more thing that I figured out just now, since my last post:

I've realized at least one reason descriptions of Fritz's height veer between 5'2" (157 cm) and 5'7" (170 cm) with very little middle ground: Voltaire reports it at 5'2" in his pamphlet. Now, that has to be French inches, which would be about 5'6" (167 cm) in English inches. Now, he probably did lose a few inches as an old man, which was when he was a celebrity, (if nothing else, he was apparently stooped over with arthritis), but this is the same thing that happened to Napoleon: he was 5'2" in French inches, and he got a reputation for being super short because someone failed to make the conversion.

So if Voltaire is telling the truth, Fritz would have been not super short, but not tall, and probably around the same height as Katte (imo).

FW I've only seen described as 5'2", and I do wonder whose units those are.

Okay, I really need to call it a day for new salon posts!

(The Prussian state archives have an entry for "correspondence with youth friend and royal adjutant Peter Karl Christoph von Keith 1745-1750", which is super interesting to me. One day we should think about ordering it!)

Edited Date: 2021-01-30 02:08 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-03 08:45 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

prinzsorgenfrei

I spend way too much time on zvab (website for buying old books) lately and, while browsing, I found that one seller is offering a book that belonged to Katte at some point! :D It's a philosophical text (Traité philosophique de la foiblesse de l'esprit humain by Pierre Daniel Huet), first edition from 1723. A rather fancy edition, apparently. Lots of gold on the exterior, according to the description.

Now, I can't afford to spend 2.5k on a book right now, but the seller was nice enough to respond to my plea for pictures with "Voilà." and this:

images

It's not much, but I thought I'd share it :D Another thing i found was this GDR-era novel about the trial with the dramatic title "Das Richtschwert traf den falschen Hals". Might read that once I finally get back to summarizing Burte...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, nice, thank you!

I also spend too much time on zvab? Lol. But shipping costs (or just non-existent shipping) to the US deter me from spending more, alas.

Re: Findings while browsing zvab

From:

selenak - Date: 2021-01-31 07:40 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Findings while browsing zvab

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-01-31 01:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Findings while browsing zvab

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-12 05:30 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Findings while browsing zvab

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-12 05:29 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

You've heard of the Defenestration of Prague; now let me tell you of the Defenestration of Berlin! In 1702, 14-year-old FW threw his chamberlain out a window at Charlottenburg. Horowski does not say what floor this took place on. Fortunately, the guy only broke an arm.

To his credit, FW immediately realized he had gone too far, and begged the guy not to tell on him. Horowski speculates that this experience helped FW develop even the modicum of self-control that he'd lacked before.

G2, count yourself lucky you only got beaten up ~~by a much younger kid~~! (I've actually forgotten what ages we determined they were when this happened. Dammit.)

(The Defenestration of Prague, if you haven't heard of it, was an event in 1618 that helped kick off the Thirty Years' War. I am weak on the Thirty Years' War and will let

selenak elaborate if she wants to.)

From:

selenak

(I've actually forgotten what ages we determined they were when this happened. Dammit.)

I vaguely recall something of five years or thereabouts, but I could be wrong. Anyway, the fact that G2 decades later had to be talked out of challenging FW to personal combat seems to indicate he never got over the humiliation. (I still think it's a great crack fic premise to let that duel happen. Half serious question: whom is Fritz rooting for? On the one hand, given Wilhelmine's classification of the Pannwitz episode as direly needed comic relief, he might yearn for someone to take Dad down a peg. Or several. Otoh, Dad is also the King whom he'll succeed, and Fritz is status conscious, plus he's well done, son guy.

Defenestration of Prague: there were several, but the most famous one was the second one, about which more in the wiki article, because it's not my area of expertise. (I know a bit more about the later stages of the 7 Years War.) Oh, yeah, some genetic cross connections: the guy the Protestants who do the defenestrating to the Catholics chose as King of Bohemia in defiance of the Habsburg Emperor is the son-in-law of James I. Stuart, married to Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen. (So called because her reign didn't last much longer than a winter. You don't fuck with the Habsburgs in that era, Bohemians.) And Elizabeth's daughter is none other than Sophie (later of Hannover), the Hannover matriarch who is the ancestor of all the subsequent German monarchs of England, starting with her son G1, and of course of all the Hohenzollern monarchs after FW through the marriage of her daughter Sophie Charlotte with FW.

Re: Defenestration

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-12 05:29 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Defenestration

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-12 07:01 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Wrt to Horowski's comment that Fritz is a great example of how first cousins marrying can end up perfectly fine, I wanted to elaborate a bit on the genetic possibilities here.

If you assume that FW had porphyria, that G3 had porphyria, and that some of the FW/SD kids had porphyria--and none of those diagnoses are confirmed, as far as I know--*and* you assume they all had the same type of porphyria (there are several), then the following scenario is possible.

Abbreviations:

p: the defective copy of the gene that causes porphyria.
N: the normal copy of the same gene.

Since porphyria is a recessive trait, we would conclude that symptomatic FW had two defective copies of the gene.

FW: pp

And that asymptomatic SD had one defective copy and one normal copy (she's what we call a "carrier"):

SD: pN

And their kids, who get one copy from each parent, would have a fifty percent chance of getting two defective copies and being symptomatic (symptomatic pairings are in bold): pp, pp, pN, pN. (I thought about doing the Punnett square, but didn't want to waste time on the html--I have another post coming that's going to require some visuals.)

Whereas if FW and SD were not first cousins, then there would be a much greater chance that SD would have two normal copies of the gene, and the kids would all be asymptomatic carriers (who should then not marry their cousins): pN, pN, pN, pN.

The problem may or may not have been exacerbated by the fact that FW's parents were second cousins, and that that was through a line that included Sophia of Hanover, mother of G1. In other words, the fact that FW had two copies to make him symptomatic and to give his kids a 50% chance of being symptomatic may be related to his parents each carrying at least one defective copy of the same gene (p) that G3 had two copies of and SD one copy of.

Disclaimer: This is all assuming there is one porphyria-causing variant of one gene in the Hanovers and Hohenzollerns, all of which is speculation. I've also toned down the technical terms severely here.

Oh, and this is why in my unwritten reincarnation modern AU, Fritz gets gene therapy. :D

From:

selenak

Let me add here that the later Hohenzollern are even more inbred because of all the repeated Braunschweig and Hessen-Darmstadt marriages. And then Friedrich of Hohenzollern marries Victoria daughter of Queen Victoria (herself daughter of a son of G3), thereby reuniting the two porphyria lines, and creating that wonder of emotional balance, Wilhelm II, aka Willy. As well as the current bunch locked in a law suit against the state of Brandenburg in order to get either their palaces or financial compensation for same. Talk about necessary gene therapy!

Re: Inbreeding

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-12 05:31 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

A couple brief notes from my occasional glances at Asprey, who inundates you with military, political, and economic detail for several hundred pages and doesn't give you half as much confidence as Horowski does that his details can be trusted, and whose writing style is pretty damn dry, so I'm selectively skimming rather than reading...

1) Fritz "softened the blow" of "Madame has grown plump" with a gift of five thousand thalers. Do we know of any evidence backing this? Is it in Lehndorff?

2) The Heinrich/Mina marriage fell apart shortly after the 7 Years' War because Heinrich "was a cold fish and had been cuckolded by his adjutant."

There seems to be this whole tradition called "Lehndorff who? I didn't read Lehndorff" about Heinrich. *facepalm*

3) Per Asprey, the reason a sympathetic Fritz finally came down on EC2's affairs was because:

Princes Henry and Ferdinand -- second and third in line to the throne -- informed the king that they would never allow a bastard to take away their legitimate rights to succession. The king was forced to arrange a divorce.

Do we know of any evidence for this?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Speaking of Elizaveta's coup, I hit that part in Horowski last night, and it's worth sharing.

1730s: Anna Ivanovna is Czarina of Russia. (She and her court are thus the ones Suhm is pumping for money from Fritz. Also the one that Algarotti briefly visits in his eternal quest for a job.)

1740: She's dying. Her heir apparent is Anna Leopoldovna, her niece. But because Peter the Great made it so that each Czar gets to name his or her heir, Anna Leopoldovna's succession is not a given. Court intrigue leads the dying Czarina to name Anna Leopoldovna's son Ivan as heir instead. Unfortunately...

1740, August 23: Ivan is born.

1740, October 28: Anna Ivanovna dies. Meaning the new Czar is all of 2 months and 5 days old. Regency time!

1741: Anna Leopoldovna, Ivan VI's mother, is regent.

1741, December: Elizaveta stages a coup that apparently involves walking through the palace asking all the guards she meets if they know who her father (Peter the Great) was, and they all swear to die for her. Anna Leopoldovna, Ivan VI, Anna's husband, and the other kids are all taken prisoner in their sleep. Bloodless coup!

Now, one thing Elizaveta is famous for is not having executed a single person during her reign. So this bloodless coup consists of locking up Ivan VI, his parents, and his siblings...for the rest of their lives.

1742: HolsteinPete becomes (P)RussianPete, heir to his childless aunt Elizaveta.

1744: Anna Leopoldovna, Ivan VI, and the rest of the family have been hanging out in prison in the Baltic, in Riga, under guard for the last couple of years. This year, Elizaveta gives her minions until February 11 to get the imprisoned royal family out of Riga. They're removed on the last day of the deadline. On February 12, AnhaltSophie arrives in town, on her way to St. Petersburg to become RomKat, wife of (P)RussianPete.

1744: Fritz writes to Elizaveta that she seriously needs to relocate the Ivan VI family to the most remote corner of the earth, until Europe finally forgets about them.

She does. They get moved to the red dot (Khomolgory):

The original plan is actually to put them on the yellow dot (Solovetsky), an island off the north coast of Russia, in the White Sea, which freezes solid 6 months out of the year. But they don't make it in time, and they have to winter over at Khomologory. That makes Elizaveta realize that if she moves them to the frozen island, she won't be able to get regular reports from her minions. So she leaves them at Khomologory, nearly as remote and frozen and impossible to escape from, but where her messengers can come and go year round.

Ivan is locked in a single room with no visitors for his entire life. The rest of the family gets to live in an apartment, together, with a few servants, and have a vegetable garden and go for occasional supervised walks, at least. Ivan is eventually moved somewhere closer to St. Petersburg, when word gets out about where he's being kept. The rest of his family remains where it was. Elizaveta goes to get a look at Ivan shortly after his arrival in the new fortress.

1746: Anna Leopoldovna dies in this prison.

1764: At 23 years old, Ivan VI is killed, shortly after Catherine the Great stages *her* coup (she doesn't want any rivals either). Remember, he's been in prison since he was 1 year old, and in solitary confinement since he was about 3. Once Ivan VI is dead, Dad is offered permission to leave Russia forever, but he refuses to leave his kids. Mom's long dead.

1774: Dad dies.

1780: The surviving siblings of Ivan VI, who've never known anything except prison, get released to house arrest in Denmark for the rest of their lives. It is super difficult for them to interact with people outside their immediate family, since they have absolutely no experience with it. The end.

Now, the basic outlines of this I had already known from "Ekaterina", which gives Ivan VI some memorable screentime in the first season. But what I didn't know, and thanks to Horowski excelling at pointing out connections, I now know, is...

Ivan VI's dad in this story? Who gets locked away in a remote part of Russia just for being married to a Russian royal and landing on the wrong side of a coup? Is EC's older brother, Duke Anton Ulrich of Brunswick.

In fact, he and EC were only one year apart in age. See, I knew one of EC's siblings had married into the Russian royal family around this time, but I didn't know it was the one who'd gotten locked up for being the father of Ivan VI, and I certainly didn't know Fritz had advised locking him up in the most remote part of the world forever.

And you thought the condolence letter about EC's brother Albert after Soor was bad!

It also gives new meaning to EC's letter to her brother Ferdinand when Fritz and SD and the siblings are all having excursions without the Brunswick wives, in which she writes, in March 1744, "I remain stuck in this old château like a prisoner, while the others have fun." In March 1744, their brother Anton Ulrich was on his way to Khomolgory.

:/

Have some screenshots from "Ekaterina". These are fictionalized, in that Elizaveta did not visit Anton Ulrich and the rest of the family (too far away), and in that, when she visited Ivan, he was a teenager, but I thought it worked pretty well as fiction.

Anton Ulrich on his knees directly in front of Elizaveta, the non-Ivan kids surrounding him, the new baby in the nurse's arms, Mom isn't here because she's just died (she did in fact die after giving birth):

Elizaveta being shown to Anna Leopoldovna's grave (very difficult to get a good shot because of all the leafless shrubbery):

Ivan VI, in his prison cell of solitary confinement, reaching out to touch Elizaveta's hand:

Catherine visiting now adult Ivan VI in solitary confinement, shortly before she orders his execution:

Edited Date: 2021-01-31 06:09 pm (UTC)

From:

felis

From:

selenak - Date: 2021-02-07 12:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-07 03:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-08 06:28 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-08 11:22 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Mes amies, I hardly dare to bring this up, but: how about considering to join the Unsent Letters Exchange? My main reason for joining is that the format would be ideal for the Peter Keith fic I still owe Mildred, I have to admit. (Haven't decided yet whether Peter writes his unsent letters to Fritz or to dead lion Katte, but either way, the format would so work.) (And no one else is going request Peter Keith, are they?) Even aside from this, though: the rules say one can nominate up to seven fandoms with seven relationships for each fandom, with a minimum of three fandom to request and a minimum of four fandom to offer. Also, I've never done this particular challenge before, and I can write letters. (And diary entries.) (Also chats of Fritzian fanboys.) (And secret divorce lawyer texts.)

Other than Mildred's Peter Keith fic, here are some more ideas for unsent letters, both serious and cracky: G2's challenging FW to personal combat, and FW's equally unsent and/or confiscated reply; Katte to Fritz from August to November 1730; Lehndorff to Heinrich or vice versa, making up after a quarrel during one of their on/off phases; Voltaire to Émilie or vice versa (since all of their correspondence has been lost), including one after her death from Prussia ("Yes, you told me so; but dammit, why can't you be around right now to say to me: I told you so!"); Heinrich when he moves into Wusterhausen two years before his death to any and all of his dead family members; Hans Heinrich trying to understand why his son did what he did and trying to cope with his loss by writing to him; and so forth.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-08 11:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Speaking of Yankee tax-dodgers...

A little background first.

When Fritzmania became a thing in England during and after the Seven Years' War, it was very common to put up his portrait on the signboards over the doors of inns/taverns (CHW was sadly locked up, then dead, and unable to climb on chairs to kiss them) and name the inn "King of Prussia." This practice spread to the American colonies.

And so it is that there is, to this day, a town called King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. It's mostly famous today for its giant mall, but it's named after the 18th-century inn, which used to have a signboard with Fritz's picture hanging in front. Keep in mind that many Germans settled in Pennsylvania; hence the ethnic group and language called "Pennsylvania Dutch" are not Dutch but "Deutsch."

Because of reasons, I happened to find myself on the Wikipedia page for King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. And what should I find but this excerpt from a 1778 diary entry of a German soldier (who was fighting on the British side in the Revolution):

I must also comment that the King of Prussia has a house in Philadelphia and therefore is a citizen and enjoys the rights of citizenship. This house is built of wood and is supposed to have been put together and built in East Friesland, brought from there to England and on a ship to Philadelphia, where it was put up in one night. It is called in their language a "Tavern," in German an inn or pub ("Gast- oder Wirtshaus"), which bears a signboard showing the King of Prussia.

Now, if you trust the rest of the Wikipedia page, the inn was built by local Welsh Quakers in 1719, so I would take this with a grain of salt. But I was deeply entertained by Fritz enjoying the rights of citizenship in Pennsylvania!

selenak, weren't you going to set an opera in Pennsylvania?

As for the name of the inn, Wikipedia reports:

A map created by William Parker, an American Loyalist, listed the inn as "Berry's" in 1777, but a local petition in 1786 identified it as the "King of Prussia". It was possibly renamed to entice German soldiers fighting in the American Revolution to remain in this area.

I am also sad that I did not snap a picture of this inn (still standing, slightly relocated, repurposed, no remaining picture of Fritz) when I had the chance. I've always known about King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, but I didn't know *where* in this rather large state it might be located. What I didn't realize is that it borders on Valley Forge.

So when Royal Patron and I were wandering around Valley Forge checking out Washington's headquarters and such in 2018, we were about 5 km from the King of Prussia inn! And less than 1 km from the town limits. Had I but known!

Edited Date: 2021-02-06 10:53 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Nifty! I knew Pennsylvania was musical AU material. :) (Speaking of AUs: In the where Heinrich accepts the King of the USA job, I'm not sure whether Fritz keeps that citizenship, but okay, he's dead by then.)

It was possibly renamed to entice German soldiers fighting in the American Revolution to remain in this area.

Hm, wouldn't that depend on which side they were fighting on? Also from which German state they're from? Granted, Fritzmania was pretty popular in non Prussian German states, too, after the 7 Years War, independently from whether or not the people were pro Prussia as well (see Goethe's "we were all Fritzians, but what was Prussia to me?" about his youthful fandom), but, well, Saxons would have been the exception of the rule.

Bavarians: We were also less than keen on Fritz!
Würtembergians: Named-after-Fritz Schiller provides our lack of enthusiam for being sold to the US to fight in order to finance Carl Eugen's life style with powerful literary testimony. Not sure how we'd feel about a Fritz reminder one way or the other, but Carl Eugen was educated at Fritz' court, so...
Hessians: We provide a ghost story! Also princesses to be married off in unhappy marriages with Prussians, but that's beside the point.

Re: Citizen of Pennsylvania

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-07 02:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Latest update from my glacially slow reading of the MT bio: Austrian Trenck's memoirs were probably not written by him. I mean, that seems fair, but I didn't know this. We were already side-eyeing its honesty, so it's not a great loss, but chalk that up to another source that turned out to be less reliable than apparent at first glance. I'm starting to think historical fiction posing as memoirs is more common than actual memoirs!

From:

selenak

Given how the whole thing started - I mean, just look at Herodot and Livy! -, I wouldn't be surprised. I was reminded today when looking for something else Goethe-related that Bettine von Armin wrote "Goethes Briefwechsel mit einem Kinde" as essentially her/Goethe RPF, by taking some actual letters she wrote to him, writing some more invented letters, and then taking his letters to a whole bunch of people and readdressing them to her, plus inventing some, too. And that book appeared 1835, a mere three years after his death, not to mention that she was not only an ardent fan in rl but had had an (in)famous argument with his wife (Goethe sided with his wife). Because Bettine was actually a gifted author, not to mention one of the few progressive and liberal female writers of her age, the result is literature and treated as such, but it certainly was published as a memoir-plus-correspondence first, not as "Here's what I wish what my relationship with Goethe would have been like".

objectivity and Goethe

From:

selenak - Date: 2021-02-12 05:01 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

felis

I've been reading some of the Fritz-Suhm correspondence and even though I knew how it was going to end, reading Suhm's last letter is genuinely heartbreaking. Damn. :(

I also came across this 1787 edition of their letters (Correspondance familiere et amicale de Frederic second, roi de Prusse, avec U. F. de Suhm - english translation) and it starts with a Portrait du Prince Royal de Prusse, Par M. de Suhm, dated April 2nd, 1740, which I hadn't heard about before! The preface just says it was found among Suhm's papers and now I'm wondering if it's trustworthy as having been written by Suhm. (I mean, looking at the date, I can easily imagine that with FW's impending death, someone wanted to know more about Junior.) I'd certainly like it to be authentic, what with its 'I love him a lot, but I'm not blinded by this love, so you can take my word for all his good qualities' tone. <3

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I think I found evidence that it's real and who he wrote it for! (And yes, because FW's death was imminent.) More later!

ETA: Okay! Royal Detective reporting in.

Starting on page 164 of this volume on Saxon history is a review of a work (more on which shortly) on the beginning of Frederick the Great's reign. The reviewer mentions that in the spring of 1740, Count Brühl, future prime minister of Saxony of whom we've heard so much, commissioned write-ups on the character of Soon-to-Be-King Fritz from his diplomats Manteuffel and Suhm.

Suhm's was very concise and cautious, Manteuffel went on for pages and pages in great detail.

I can't turn up a copy of Manteuffel's online! I've found many references to it, including the review above, but the only copy I've found is one you can order via interlibrary loan via the Munich Stabi. (I guess we have to specify which Stabi, now that we have multiple Germans in our salon. ;) )

Manteuffel's character portrait, called Lettres confidentes sur le portrait de Fidamire, was published in Aus den Anfängen der Regierung Friedrichs des Grossen by Kurt/Curt Tröger/Troeger in 1901, if that helps any of our other detectives track it down.

Now, "Fidamire" is glossed as "Friedrich" in the review. Looks like we have another obscure Fritz nickname! A cursory Google only gives me Fidamira, the heroine of an obscure seventeenth-century English drama. I got nothing.

However, googling "Fidamire" turned up this biographical essay on Jordan, heavily footnoted, with pages of bibliography, including archives. It might contain something interesting, if one of our German readers wants to skim it.

Now, to Suhm's character portrait.

Between his awareness of (and sympathy for) Fritz's constant dissimulation, his awareness that Fritz's greatest passion is fame, and his awareness that Fritz will totally make war on princes that he personally likes, it sounds like Suhm kind of knew Fritz well enough not to be shocked by 1740 developments! He says a lot of other people have been deceived. Go Suhm!

The one thing where he seems to have been fooled is that he says Fritz "used to" mock everyone when he was young, but he's now outgrown that and criticizes people who mock others. Well, yes, the second part is and will remain true, Suhm. Sorry to break the news to you about the first part. :P

The part where Suhm says people have been fooled into thinking he will go to war on behalf of princes he personally likes, whereas Fritz has informed him that he could totally make war on someone he liked and ally with someone he didn't like at all, makes me think people have noticed that Fritz liked FS and sent him a salmon (via Suhm, remember!) but Suhm would not have been at all surprised if he'd lived a month longer and witnessed the "rendezvous with fame."

"I love you, Diaphane, but you're Prussian now and I'm invading Saxony" might not have surprised him either, much as I assume it would have disappointed him. (Given his list of Fritz's good qualities, the sheer ruthlessness of the occupation might have caught even Suhm off guard.)

The anecdote about Fritz displaying courage and a cool head when seeing action for the first time is one I'd seen before. Suhm says he's got it from the Prince of Lichtenstein (remember, the guy who loaned Fritz money, lost land when Fritz invaded Silesia, sold Fritz the Antinous, and eventually got his debts repaid in like the 1770s or whatever :P).

The most interesting part to me was Suhm saying that just before he left, he and Fritz had a conversation about "a certain person of distinction" who was no longer in Fritz's good graces, which had given Suhm some reason to wonder if Fritz might be fickle and might not always love him. And Fritz gave him the (unspecified by Suhm) reasons for distancing himself from this certain person of distinction, in order to reassure Suhm that Suhm had nothing to worry about.

Two things here.

One, whatever Fritz said was obviously convincing, plus the four subsequent years of correspondence, because the part that breaks *my* heart about their letters is the part where Suhm submitted his resignation the moment he heard about FW's death, without even bothering to inform Fritz, because he was so confident that Fritz wanted him that he assumed it would be equally obvious to Fritz that Suhm wanted *him*. Spoiler: Fritz needed the reassurance.

Two, of course I immediately wondered who the person of distinction was. Upon first reading, without having done any research, I guessed based on the chronology that it was Manteuffel. Suhm leaves for St. Petersburg in late 1736; Fritz is defending himself to Grumbkow about his sudden switch from love (remember, in July 1736, Fritz shows Manteuffel "all the tendernesses imaginable," leading

selenak to wonder if they had sex, and gave him a Socrates bust walking stick head like the one he gave Voltaire) to coldness toward Manteuffel in October 1737. And of course, if Fritz suddenly turned cold on the current Saxon envoy, Suhm would be alert to that for both political and personal reasons!

Then I found the review of the Manteuffel letters, which dates the Fritz/Manteuffel rift to 1736. (It seems to involve a portrait? I'm not clear on how that played out. "Das Original des Gemäldes, das Friedrich 1736 mit zum Abbruch der Beziehungen zu Manteuffel bewog...") So I still think it's entirely possible Suhm is referring to Manteuffel here.

So *that's* interesting. Brühl is asking for character portraits on Fritz from Suhm, (who is apparently not on good terms with Brühl, at least according to the ever-poorly-informed Stratemann) and Manteuffel (whom we know from a variety of sources is not on great terms with Fritz, who will shortly send him packing).

Oh, the editor of the Suhm volume, I forgot to mention, I love how he's all, "And in 1730 Suhm was recalled from the Berlin court, for reasons which I do not know but which I'm sure did not reflect badly on Suhm. It was probably FW's fault! Also, since we all know FW hated learned people, people who liked Wolff, and people who Fritz liked, he probably hated Suhm!"

Editor clearly doesn't know about the time in the 1720s when Suhm fled the country because FW was threatening to hang him, and the time in 1736 when FW heard Suhm got assigned to St. Petersburg and said he should have hanged Suhm when he had the chance. You were more right than you knew, editor! :D

In conclusion, thank you for pointing us to this,

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-17 11:40 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Once upon a time,

selenak reported:

Having spent several days in Saxony this week, I also visited Königstein Castle, where they have the very special big scales where August the Strong got himself and his guests of honor weighed. And thus I can report Fritz' weight in the year 1728, fully clothed, was 64 kilo. (FW was 108.) Sadly, I don't know his height by heart, but I fully expect Mildred to know it.

At the time I only knew the two radically different heights, but now that we know Fritz was approximately 1.67 m (5'6"), and the lower height is due to French/English unit confusion, we have his height and weight at age 16! 64 kilos is 140 lbs, which is not underweight for that height.

FW, I've seen reported as 5'2" (157 cm), but that may be a similar misunderstanding, because I found an article in this volume (p. 38) that reports him as 1.65m, and as 2 1/2 "Zentner" at the age of 35 (about 5 years before the Dresden trip). With one Zentner being about 50 kilos, that's supposed to be 125 kilos (275 lb), according to Wikipedia (though of course units vary by time and place!).

Incidentally, the linked-to volume, which I turned up last night looking for something else, opens with a description of the F1 coronation, and has an article on the physical health of FW and also a history of his painting (which he did to distract himself when he was sick), which seems to indicate (to my weak German) that he was already painting in 1734 at least, which jives with Wilhelmine's memoirs.

cahn, I demand that outtake where FW wants to paint Fredersdorf in winter 1733!

(Der Vater gets cited as one of the two sources for the FW article, which is interesting. But since it would take me 30-60 minutes to get through the 10-page article, I can't speak to how it was employed by the author.)

Ooh, look, there's also an article on the medical history of Fritz, including the porphyria hypothesis. And an impressive litany of his illnesses!

Looks like there was a sightseeing bus tour along the Oder in 1997, described as "From Kundersdorf to Fredersdorf: along the old Oder." So they must have stopped by Gartz, haha.

There may be other stuff of interest as well in this volume; without a table of contents that I can find, and with the sheer number of items in 300+ pages, it's hard to say. But my German is getting better: I still can't skim the entire content of a text, but I can pick one sentence per paragraph and read it quickly. Progress!

In other new library additions, remember Münchow the younger and his first letter describing Katte's execution, the one that goes, "You're wrong about Katte! Fritz totally didn't have to watch! I was there!"? The letter was addressed to Friedrich Nicolai, well-known writer of his time and son of the bookseller Crown Prince used to get his books from, who had written a collection of anecdotes about Fritz after Fritz's death (when everyone was cashing in on the death of a celebrity). Including, apparently, the execution of Katte. And I had been wanting to get my hands on Nicolai's anecdote collection since 2019, and have *finally* turned it up.

In 6 volumes. Not searchable. Some with tables of contents, some without. So the 6 volumes are in the library if anyone has a lot of time on their hands.

Edited Date: 2021-02-14 04:40 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

mildred_of_midgard

Incidentally, given all the woes I've had with images not showing up, I have no idea if anyone actually saw the sketch of Diderot that was made after his death, in which the author points out that his nose is a lot more prominent than it's ever depicted in life. Judging by Fritz's death mask, the same applied to him!

At any rate, *hopefully* this picture is and will remain visible:

From:

selenak

Well, I can see it! That is quite a nose, yes.

Re: Diderot

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-14 06:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Diderot

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-02-15 06:38 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thanks to Selena linking to a virtual tour of Sanssouci last week, I spent quite a bit of time walking around Fritz's library and bedroom-cum-study, the two rooms in which I'm most interested. (Still annoyed that the bedroom-cum-study was renovated.)

Thanks to that, I can conclusively say that none of the doors in Fritz's bedroom go to Fredersdorf's bedroom, and that Fredersdorf's bedroom was not seen by either me or

selenak on our tour except from outside. Thanks to renovations, I can't say that they didn't adjoin in Fritz's day; the sketch of the floorplan has always been ambiguous to me (it doesn't look like they quite connect, but I have a hard time reading these things).

So if Fredersdorf's room was the first one in the servants' wing next to the library, and if major structural renovations didn't change what passageways connected which rooms to which, I don't think Fredersdorf's bedroom exactly adjoined Fritz's, but they were of course quite close. I just don't think it was possible to get privately from one to the other in the middle of the night without passing through a corridor--again, barring renovations. (There were at least 19th-century renovations to add a second floor onto the servants' wings, and the kitchens were moved, and that's not counting what might have been done to turn this into a tourist attraction in the 20th century, so this could have changed.)

Regardless, I really wish they would let us see it! Neither the in-person tour nor the virtual tour will let me turn the corner to head toward Fredersdorf's room. :P Even if they don't want a crowd of people there, they should take the camera there for the virtual tour, even if it's just an administrative office with highly unauthentic electricity and plumbing now.

But it is awesome getting to set (virtual) foot inside the library! My favorite room, and they wouldn't even let me in it when I was there, something something conservation of books. :P

Thank you,

selenak!

From:

cahn

Thanks to that, I can conclusively say that none of the doors in Fritz's bedroom go to Fredersdorf's bedroom

Okay, I totally love that you made sure to figure this out. (Because of course you did!)

Re: Fredersdorf's room

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-02-18 02:18 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Long ago, during Yuletide when I got way behind on salon, I posted something I'd been reading, namely this anecdote about the lengths courtiers would go to to fight for the symbols of their rank at Versailles:

In 1699 several women of one particular court family, the Lorraine, tried to sit “above” the duchesses at a formal reception presided over by the young duchess of Burgundy, at the time the “first lady” of Versailles. They carried out this concerted and premeditated maneuver by arriving early in a group in order to occupy the stools arranged on the more “honorable” right side of the duchess’s armchair. Finding one duchess already seated there, the strongest and most aggressive of these women, the princesse d’Harcourt, wrestled her off her seat and sat down on it herself. When Saint-Simon’s duchess arrived, feeling unwell, she was reproved by one of the Lorraine women for sitting “above” her. Saint-Simon was so outraged when he heard that he risked the dangerous step of complaining to Louis XIV.

selenak wanted to know which one, "Given that FS' mother (Liselotte's daughter) was the Duchess of Lorraine, I mean."

The answer turns out to be: a distantly related, junior branch of the family, with a common ancestor only in the second half of the 15th century. (I mean, in the direct line of rulers of Lorraine: they no doubt had other common ancestors!) FS is descended from Antoine, the eldest son, who became duke of Lorraine; the stool-wrestling Lorraines in question were descended from Claude, the second son, who became the first duke of Guise (and his daughter, Marie de Guise, was thus the mother of Mary, Queen of Scots).

The relevant passage from Saint-Simon is this:

On the 6th of January, upon the reception of the ambassadors at the house of the Duchesse de Bourogogne, an adventure happened which I will here relate. M. de Lorraine belonged to a family which had been noted for its pretensions, and for the disputes of precedency in which it engaged. He was as prone to this absurdity as the rest, and on this occasion incited the Princesse d’Harcourt, one of his relations, to act in a manner that scandalised all the Court. Entering the room in which the ambassadors were to be received and where a large number of ladies were already collected, she glided behind the Duchesse de Rohan, and told her to pass to the left. The Duchesse de Rohan, much surprised, replied that she was very well placed already. Whereupon, the Princesse d’Harcourt, who was tall and strong, made no further ado, but with her two arms seized the Duchesse de Rohan, turned her round, and sat down in her place. All the ladies were strangely scandalised at this, but none dared say a word, not even Madame de Lude, lady in waiting on the Duchesse de Bourgogne, who, for her part also, felt the insolence of the act, but dared not speak, being so young. As for the Duchesse de Rohan, feeling that opposition must lead to fisticuffs, she curtseyed to the Duchess, and quietly retired to another place. A few minutes after this, Madame de Saint- Simon, who was then with child, feeling herself unwell, and tired of standing, seated herself upon the first cushion she could find. It so happened, that in the position she thus occupied, she had taken precedence of Madame d’Armagnac by two degrees. Madame d’Armagnac, perceiving it, spoke to her upon the subject. Madame de Saint-Simon, who had only placed herself there for a moment, did not reply, but went elsewhere.

The Princesse d’Harcourt in question doesn't seem to have a Wikipedia page of her own, either in English or in French, but her husband's is here, and a non-Wikipedia write-up quoting from Saint-Simon about how she was *terrible* is here. As the author of this write-up says, "How true those stories are in their details is hard to tell."

And thus I can finally check this November item off my list of comments I meant to reply to!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It's 1710. Louis XIV is King of France. The succession seems assured, as he has six male descendants, five of whom are eligible for the throne:

Son
Louis the Dauphin

Grandsons
Louis, Duke of Burgundy
Philip V of Spain (not legally eligible)
Charles, Duke of Berry

Great-grandsons
Louis, Duke of Brittany (son of Louis, Duke of Burgundy), born in 1707
Louis, (other son of Louis, Duke of Burgundy), born in 1710.

But then this happens!

1711: Louis the Dauphin, son of Louis XIV, dies of smallpox. Louis, Duke of Burgundy, becomes the Dauphin.
1712, February 12: The wife of the Dauphin dies of measles.
1712, February 18: The Dauphin, who loved his wife, stayed with her when she was sick, caught the measles from her, and didn't want to outlive her, also dies of measles. His 5-year-old son Louis becomes Daupin.
1712, March 12: The new 5-year-old Dauphin dies of the same measles that got his parents.
1714: The Duke of Berry dies from a hunting accident.
1715: Louis XIV dies.

This means that when Louis XIV dies, he has two legitimate male descendants, Philip V of Spain, and a 5-year-old kid, the one whose parents and older brother died of measles within a single month, when he was only 2.

5-year-old kid becomes the Louis XV we know so well.

Who's regent?

Well, not Philip V of Spain. After the War of the Spanish Succession (1711-1714), he was only allowed to keep his throne on the condition that he renounce all his rights to France, on his own behalf and that of his descendants, in perpetuity.

Of course, when they started negotiating this treaty, he was a lot further along in the succession than he was when they signed it! Now it's one five-year-old kid standing between him and the throne. War is feared.

Normally, the kid's mother would be regent (as happened when Louis XIV inherited at the age of four), but remember, she died of measles. Grandma was long dead. So is great-grandma. Madame de Maintenon is in a morganatic marriage with Louis XIV, and morganatic marriages don't make you a shoo-in for regent.

So the regency goes to the next in line to the throne (ignoring the officially disqualified but very much feared Philip of Spain), Louis XIV's gay brother's son, Philippe d'Orleans.

But the regency doesn't go to him without a fight!

A number of Philippe's enemies are concerned he's going to off the 5-year-old so he can become king (not a problem when Mom is regent). One of those enemies, Madame de Maintenon, wants her illegitimate son by Louis XIV to be regent.

Louis XIV's final will legitimizes Maintenon's son, gives him the real power, and gives Philippe an empty title. Then he dies.

The next day, Philippe summons the Parlement of Paris (not to be confused with a Parliament such as that of England) and gets them to annul the will. In return, he gives them all the rights they had previously enjoyed involving the vetoing of royal laws and actions, which Louis XIV had severely limited.

So that's the story of how Philippe II, Duc d'Orleans, against all probability, ends up as regent for Louis XV.

For the story of how Louis XV, against all probability, survived the measles that wiped out his family, his governess gets the credit. His older brother, being the next in line to the throne, and the doctors, paying more attention to him, did what 18th century doctors did: they bled him. The five-year-old died.

Two-year-old Louis was barricaded in his room by his governess, who wouldn't let the doctors near him, and stayed with him herself. And surprise! He survived! (Eventually he would die of smallpox, but not until his sixties.)

Go governess. Horowski tells me Louis XV loved her like a mother and called her Doudou (from her name, "Madame de Ventadour").

From:

From:

selenak

So, checking out the various Volz volumes again, I was reminded of the bizarreness, I was reminded once more of Fritz' "Me/Archduchess = Me/Freedom = OTP!" plan in Küstrin, which had everyone else going WTF, and thus neatly proved that either Fritz was lying to Katte point blank when claiming Grumbkow and Seckendorff were trying to pressure him into this, or Katte made it up on the spot during interrogation, which is doubtful, given the frequency with which Fritz returns to this idea in 1731 and early 1732. Now why would Fritz lie like the lying liar he ultimately was in later years towards the person who was at the point of the lie his main confidant? Possibly because Katte (as opposed to Peter Keith) advised caution and didn't want to go with the escape plan at first when Fritz broke it to him. But why this particular lie? Having read Hans Heinrich's letters about his dead son by now, I tentatively suggest Fritz might have been aware that Katte wasn't a deist, let alone an atheist, but was in fact despite liking French philosophers serious about his Protestantism, and claiming that the two most powerful schemers at court who had his father's ear most of the time were trying to set him up for marriage (and thus Catholic conversion) with a Habsburg would work as an argument in his favor with Katte. Either way, I don't think I've ever seen fanfic or profic tackling the (very likely) fact that Fritz lied to Katte in 1730 in order to get him to agree to the escape plan.

As a reminder, here's the first time Fritz brings up the Me/MT = OTP! plan in Küstrin.
Hille to Grumbkow, April 11th 1731: Tonight at 12 the Crown Prince got me out of bed in order to talk to him. In the presence of his gentlemen - (these are the Kammerjunker Fritz by then had been given as attendants) he presented a plan to me which I have taken down in writing and which I deliver to Your Excellency in his name. He is starting to get so bored in his present situation that he sees no possibility to change it except for taking every bad impression his father the King has of him away; he believes to succeed in this by removing every possible suspicion and doubt regarding his marriage plans. He tells this to you in confidence and relies completely on your wisdom; for he is convinced that you will use his declaration in his interests, and even if it was just to convince his majesty that he's seeking to guess the means by which he can return into the King's grace. The bearer of this message will await Your Excellency's orders; I'm asking urgently to send the plan back, the first drawing of which with the signatures of the three gentlemen I have retained. I must admit that I see great difficulties in all of this, and basically regard it as impossible.
Attached: Fritz' v.v. secret plan, dated Küstrin, April 11th 1731. Opens with a declaration that he wants to do anything his father wants, despite having to live like a "Kleinstädter" (citizen of a small town) now, and swears he has no marriage intention against the King's will anymore. To prove it, he swears he'll agree to "the intention of the King if his Majesty, despite rumor having it otherwise, has such intentions towards the House of Austria", and leaves it to Grumbkow's discretion to break this to FW. For:

As the slightest glimpse of light in situations like the one his royal highness is in awake hope, he does not consider the affair to be impossible. Since the Imperial Court seems no longer to want the Duke of Lorraine and no other suitable Catholic prince is available, said court could not make a better choice than to connect itself with a House which practices in its own territory complete religious toleration, and if England, which is inseparable from the United Netherlands, connects itself through marriage with the Princess of Prussia, then his Royal Highness believes the Pragmatic Sanction of the Emperor to be firm enough that no one would have to worry about possible contradictions.

Take that in. BTW, I don't know where Fritz heard FS is no longer an option for MT. Clearly, his sources suck when it comes to Austrian gossip. But wait, there's more.

Since the Prince does recognize that the union of the Austrian heartlands and those of the House of Prussia will uneven the European balance too much and could awake jealousy, yes, even resistance, he will gladly give up the later in favor of his brother, as soon as the deal is made and he's been given a large enough budget so he can live decently in the life times of the Emperor.
We the undersigned.... Etc.

Once more, I feel completely justified in the first of my Fritz/MT AUs. :)
Meanwhile, Grumbkow's WTF?!? reply letter to Hille is also immensely quotable. (And revealing re: FW projecting on Fritz.)
Berlin, April 14th 1731.
I didn't know what hit me when I returned yesterday from Potsdam and found the included. I'm sending you the entire thing back and beg you to burn it in the presence of the Crown Prince and the undersigned. (...) The entire document rests on completely invented assumptions. (...)
The King has much worse thoughts about the Crown Prince's character about which he's talked to me at length yesterday. 1.) He considers him to be a complete fraud, 2.) he's convinced the Crown Prince never loved him, that the opposite is true, even more than that; 3.) that he's content as a King in Küstrin, just because he' doesn't need to be near (FW) anymore, and that he hates everything which includes effort and work; 4. finally, he believes that anything that gives him, the King, the slightest bit of joy is bound to be repellent to the Crown Prince. If one tries to distract him ever so delicately and to suggest less worse interpretations, I get the reply: "If I see him coming from thirty feet away, I can read from his face what's in his heart. He probably thinks I have magical powers", and so on and so forth.

As you can see, it's necessary to disperse these impressions, and to achieve this aim, Herr von Wolden needs to support me in his reports by claiming that the Crown Prince gets ever sadder, that he doesn't see an end to his misery and his disgrace and that he's afraid all this will have a bad effect on (Fritz') temper. When I told the King: "Your Majesty may believe my word that the Crown Prince is weary, and he won't be able to endure much longer," I noticed this leased him, and he asked me: "Do you really believe that?" Me: "Yes, I've been informed in great detail of this." In short, I am telling you what the King holds against him, and you can address this in your future official letters to me. Most of all, it has to be achieved that the Crown Prince is able to see the King at least once. If this can be achieved, everything else can be worked out. You know my thoughts on this matter. If it can't be, then only God can resolve this happily. But we as humans do what we can, and then we can't be blamed...

However, Grumbkow wasn't shocked enough not to report the entire thing to Seckendorff, who told Eugene. I already quoted from Eugene's WTF letter, but it's worth quoting again.

Vienna, May 12th 1731

...The project sent by the Crown Prince to Grumbkow is very odd, and Grumbkow has done well to reply as he did, as it strikes me as quite likely that the Crown Prince has come up with such eagerness with such a project in order to deduce by the reply whether the King intends a marriage with an Archduchess. It proves the Crown Prince's falseness and judging by what he replied in turn to Grumbkow via Hille, he's forced himself into such a prosposition in order to assume the guise of love despite having little of it for the archhouse, it's quite revealing: this new project and the one from several months ago and what other far reaching ideas this young gentleman has. And despite this latest one is improvised and hasn't been pondered thoroughly, he's clearly not lacking in energy and a sharp mind, and he'll become dangerous to his neighbours in time unless he can be talked out of his current principles, which isn't to be hoped for very much or at all except for the Bevern marriage (with EC, who is the Empress' niece) ; the harsher the King deals with him, the more resistant he will be, and will in his time alter all which his father does.

I would say Eugene could be right about this just being a fishing expedition by Fritz, except in early 1732, he's back to telling Grumbkow the Empress shouldn't give him her niece (EC) but her daughter, and wouldn't that be a great idea.

Edited Date: 2021-02-15 07:35 am (UTC)

From:

cahn

From:

selenak

mildred_of_midgard

Thanks to

gambitten (who never came back to give us part 2 of our source list, *sob*), I had a notification on my calendar to alert me on Feb 15, 2021 that the 2019 Andrew Mitchell PhD dissertation would be publicly available. It's now in our library! In case it's relevant to anyone's interests.

From:

selenak

Yay! I had a very quick overview and see this is a neat counterpoint to Patrick Boran’s dissertation by putting the emphasis on Mitchell’s scholarly side and his cultural activities as part of his diplomatic efforts and what made him so successful with Fritz (until no more subsidies) and in Berlin in general. There’s an entire chapter on Mitchell’s (ultimately hopeless, but noble) attempt to get Fritz more involved with German literature by introducing him to some actual German writers, and one of the attachments is a list of everyone Mitchell nominated and sponsored for membership in the Royal Society in London. Three candidates we know: Algarotti (of course he did), Manteuffel (yes, really! Two years before Mantteuffel’s death, in the 1740s, long before Mitchell ever met Fritz), and, near the end of Mitchell’s own life, in 1766, Sir William Hamilton (envoy to Naples, future husband of Emma, etc.) Speaking of Sir William, the thesis write uses him and Charles Hanbury Williams as two extremes of being a British envoy, with CHW being all about making personal connections to top people (which worked in St. Petersburg but nowhere else) while remaining a total stranger to the local cultural scene (see CHW writing disdainful reports not just on Fritz but Berlin), while Sir William Hamilton, between being a noted volcanologist exploring the Vesuvius, being involved in the digs at Pompeii and networking with all the culturally interested visitors coming to Naples like Goethe, was deeply involved in the local cultural scene but without big political influence on the local top guy (Ferdinand the ultra childish butt slapper), at least until Emma befriends Queen Maria Carolina.

Back to Mitchell’s nominations: given that Algarotti was a European celebrity and Mitchell a young unknown Scottish lawyer just starting in politics in the early 1740s, you’d expect the nominating to go the other way around, but no, it’s Mitchell who is the Royal Society member and nominates Algarotti. That he nominates Manteuffel in 1747, otoh, says something about Manteuffel’s international reputation as a patron of the arts and sciences, since I doubt they met in person (Mitchell’s years abroad did not include trips to Saxony or Prussia). Sir William Hamilton he could have met in his short time back in London between the end of the 7 Years War and London sending him again to Prussia in 1765, but they might also have known each other from earlier, because young Andrew Mitchell’s political alliances among the Whigs in the late 1730s were just the opposite of Lord Hervey’s - he was with the anti-Robert Walpole faction and hung out with Fritz of Wales’ supporters for a while, and Sir William’s mother, lest we forget, was that lady Hervey insists had an affair with Fritz of Wales and who at any rate then became chief lady in waiting to Fritz of Wales’ wife Augusta, which is why William and future G3 basically grew up together.

ETA: it also shows that the "Fritz cried at Mitchell's funeral" story which partly still makes it into modern biographies is a fabrication with no contemporary evidence; it first shows up in later 19th century accounts, but isn't mentioned in any contemporary documents. The most detailed account of a wake for dead Mitchell is apparantly in the original undoctored French version (thesis writer is aware there's a doctored one) of Thiebault's memoirs and it's not about the funeral directly but about Mitchell's friends, including Heinrich, having come together to celebrate him by putting up the now completed bust showing him in the (now destroyed Dorotheenkirche), then afterwards having a get together in his honor where they talk of great memories and tell stories etc. Otoh, the writer als says that Thiebault's earlier claim that Mitchell died in pain without any doctors attending him was already protested by Bisset who pointed out there are bills for three different doctors treating him in his final illness in Mitchell's papers, so even undoctored Thiebault is not exactly Mr. Reliable in matters Mitchell.

Mind you: the same PhD writer earlier demonstrates he, too, hasn't read Koser's Catt-demolishing preface by taking the memoirs as utterly reliable and proving Catt's closeness to Fritz. (Perhaps he's only read Rosebery's translation?) As the memoirs contain several Mitchell-friendly stories, I can see why he wanted to quote them, but still. He also, dutifully if regretfully, includes Mitchell's less than complimentary ("emptiest, silliest fellow I ever met") description of Catt.

Edited Date: 2021-02-16 06:22 am (UTC)