I‘m with Mildred: „Sedoo“ sounds like an English native speaker‘s transcription of „Sydow“. Of the many possible members of the clan, maybe this guy, who is the right age to have been a page, and goes on to join the army: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Ludwig_von_Sydow ? And yes, the fact he evidently did not go on to be anyone of importance to Fritz shows how out of the loop Charles Hanbury Williams was. Not just in terms of not being on a good footing with Fritz, but in terms of not having found any reliable sources for gossip and rumors among the higher uppers. For comparison: Guy Dickens was on a bad footing with FW but had SD as a source; Valory, as you‘ve demonstrated, was at first disliked by Fritz (with this presumably getting better once Valory was on campaign with him in Silesia) but managed to befriend not just the rest of the family but other Berlin nobility so had good sources; and then there‘s good old Lövenörn, our main suspect for the source of that Katte pamphlet, who until 1730 got along with FW passably enough while inwardly disliking him and made friends with Fritz, Wilhelmine and Katte. The only friend Hanbury Williams seems to have made in his short time in Berlin was young Poniatowski, a foreigner who didn‘t know anyone there and was very grateful and hero-worshipping for Hanbury Williams basically adopting him. Now granted, this was a friendship of great impact for future events as it led to Poniatowski ending up in Russia and having an affair with Catherine, but in terms of what a British envoy to Prussia is supposed to achieve, it doesn‘t make up for the total failure to connect with anyone else. (Perhaps it‘s save to say that not until Richard Grenell would an English speaking ambassador in Berlin manage to piss off the local government that quickly and fail to achieve anything good for his country.)
(Not that Grenell‘s successor is any better. I‘m pretty sure all of Berlin is counting the hours until Biden appoints an US Ambassador to Germany with whom it‘s possible to have a conversation again.)
One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write. They all know Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, so that‘s public knowledge, and that his association with Fritz hails from the Crown Prince days, but I think Voltaire is the only one who mentions Küstrin specifically as well as Fredersdorf‘s ability to play the flute, in his memoirs: (This soldier, who was young, well-made, handsome and played the flute, had more ways than one of amusing the royal prisoner.) Whereas the Hannover envoy reporting to G2 who gave us the Georgii story in 1742, or later French envoys like Tyrconnel, don‘t mention this in their Fredersdorf descriptions, nor does a non-envoy and Prussian noble like Lehndorff who knows, again, that Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, and unlike the foreign envoys knows his home province (Pomerania), but doesn‘t mention him being a flutist, or Küstrin. Conclusion: either Voltaire really did his research about the competition and had better sources than the envoys, or Fritz in a good hour did talk to him about the Küstrin days (Mildred made a good case of this anyway due to the description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs being strictly from Fritz‘ pov), including a bit about Fredersdorf.
Back to good old Hanbury Williams: here‘s what amuses me in particular. In the essay about Hervey and Fritz of Wales, it‘s mentioned that young Charles when hanging out with Hervey & Co., while having plenty of affairs with the ladies, also wrote homoerotic poetry. Then somewhat older Charles Hanbury Williams (by now separated from his wife who rightly objected on his infecting her with syphilis), having secured envoy appointments, manages first to piss off Fritz and then MT. Granted, they‘re both micromanaging despots, but still: it‘s a rare envoy who manages both. Then he goes to Russia and finally manages to achieve what an envoy is supposed to, firstly by negotiating a treaty between his country and the country he‘s posted to, and secondly by creating personal ties with future powerful people (i.e. (P)Russian Pete and Catherine, especially the later)....except the Russia/England contract he negotiated is never ratified by Elizaveta because the 7 Years War happens, and by the time Catherine actually is in a position of authority, CHW has long since returned to Britain and is dead (of tertiary syphilis). Other notable events from his time in Russia were the signs of his illness and mental condition becoming more and more evident (see spectacular argument with Poniatowski, but also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting). Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Yeah, Sydow was my guess, too, but I didn't have any context. I thought of checking the Fredersdorf letters just now and what do you know, Fritz mentions him - as "Sidau" - in 1745: von Sydow and two other pages are supposed to get velvet clothing, and Richter says in the footnote that he was Fritz' favourite of the three. Plus a second mention, this time from Fredersdorf, about Sydow possibly overstepping and concerning himself with money issues (in his position as stablemaster it seems). Richter actually interprets that as possible jealousy, but, well, it's Richter, and of course he doesn't give the whole letter, but only two very short quotes.
One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write.
Yeah, definitely! And CHW has parts of it wrong here, what with Fredersdorf being Fritz' guard.
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting
Wait, what? Why? Hadn't heard that before.
Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Hee. (It's kind of interesting how people fill in their own context.)
It's on page 164 of the second Lehndorff volume ,i.e. the cut bits from the original volume, in this case an entry dated April 1 - 7 (1758):
1. bis 7. April. Marwitz hat noch ein anderes Abenteuer gehabt. Er machte die Überfahrt von Hamburg nach England mit Williams, dem englischen Gesandten in Petersburg, der mehrere Jahre unser erklärter Feind war, vor sechs Monaten aber ein so lebhafter Bewunderer unseres Königs wurde, daß er überall, wo er das Bildnis S. M. sah, auf die Stühle kletterte, um es zu küssen. Dieser selbe Williams ist so verrückt geworden, daß man ihn bei seiner Ankunft in London einsperren mußte. Marwitz kommt mit dem General Yorke zurück. der mit einem besonderen Auftrage an unsern König abgesandt worden ist. Es ist ein noch junger Mann, der aber recht liebenswürdig zu sein scheint.
I dare say the kissing was an indication he was mentally disturbed before ever reaching England, Lehndorff. BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
Agreed; mind you, while I could see good old Caesarion being a bit indiscreet when visiting Voltaire at Cirey, especially since he wants Voltaire to hand over the Pucelle already and figures a bit tit for tat in spicey gossip might do the trick, I still doubt Crown Prince Fritz' valet-plus-treasurer is a natural subject to talk of. My money - if Voltaire's source wasn't Fritz himself - is on Algarotti, who after all travelled with Fritz, AW, and Fredersdorf on the infamous Straßburg trip, thus saw the relationship up close (and at a time when his own relationship with Fritz peaked) and in all the hours of travelling together, "so how did you join the King's service?" is a likely subject. Conversely, Algarotti was on good terms with Voltaire, small bump about the publication of Newton for Ladies notwithstanding, enough so as to defend Voltaire to Fritz on the mourning for Émilie matter and to get an invite from Voltaire when the later had settled down in Switzerland as a fellow Frexit veteran ("let a free man join a free man"). So: Algarotti is my suspect. (If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.)
er überall, wo er das Bildnis S. M. sah, auf die Stühle kletterte, um es zu küssen.
WHAT? I remembered the kissing, but I totally missed or forgot that it was 1) more than once, 2) involved chair-climbing! Okay, yeah, that's totally syphilis. If it was just kissing a miniature in a small group of people, I was privately thinking that might be political hypocrisy (what else is new among politicians?), but this is crazy.
BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Uuhhh, good question. My American Revolution-fu is weak (studied it in school but never outside of school), but I don't remember a General Yorke. Wikipedia doesn't either. Perhaps you're thinking of the battle of Yorktown, where we tax-dodgers defeated Cornwallis?
If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.
When we found that Fritz talked about it with Mitchell, my estimate of the odds that he talked about it with Voltaire and/or Catt went way up. (Plus, like you reminded me I said, lol, they've both got a very Fritz-centric POV in their accounts.) Mind you, while it's possible Fritz talked about it with Catt, Catt copies Voltaire nearly word-for-word in a different passage that's critical of Fritz, so I'm still inclined to think either Catt read Voltaire or we have another sneaky meddling editor on our hands. When I get to French, I want to read both Voltaire and Catt and see if I can spot other similarities.
A curse on meddling editors; as if Catt‘s own embellishments weren‘t enough! Still, him having read Voltaire is pretty much a given, and if Fritz didn‘t bring up Katte to him - but did with both Mitchell and Voltaire - it would be all the more reason for Catt to crib that passage, given all the emphasis on him being the instant confidant. Otoh, speaking of Catt, this reminds me that Fredersdorf gets edited out of the memoirs while being mentioned at one point in the diary, to wit, in the story of bathing Voltaire getting a visit by il consigliere (or, in the memoirs version, by the Abbé de Prades). Now Catt doesn‘t mention Fritz telling him anything about his backstory with Fredersdorf in either version, but then Catt never met Fredersdorf and only became Fritz‘ reader after Fredersdorf was dead, so it might not have occured to him that this could have been used as further evidence of him being the greatest confidant.
Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich, because the version in the diary is narrated from Heinrich‘s pov and focuses on the terror of the children as they hide after FW cuts loose on Wilhelmine, and the lady in waiting coming to the rescue, not, like Wilhelmine‘s version of the same event, on FW yelling accusations and threats against Fritz and herself. And if we combine „description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs narrated from Fritz‘ pov“ with „Voltaire‘s description of Fredersdorf meeting Fritz at Küstrin in the same book contains a bit more factoids than that of other contemporaries“, the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
(Though I still think Algarotti is the most plausible alternate source on Fredersdorf if that didn‘t happen. And of course Voltaire‘s version of the execution, whoever he got it from, is still embellished as hell, what with the watching FW.)
Yorke or Yorktown - you‘re right, I probably associated Yorktown.
Hanbury Williams: yes, miniature kissing would have struck me as a gesture to acknowledge the changed political realities, too. But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing! Note that the Poniatowski biography „The Last King of Poland“ which I read for my Yuletide story and which basically shares Poniatowski‘s very positive view of CHW does not mention this, either. Btw, Williams shows up in Mitchell‘s correspondence a couple of times, mostly after his death because Mitchell got stuck with getting Williams‘ leftover luggage home that travelled after him home to England. As far as I recall, Mitchell‘s take on Williams was basically „poor guy, I didn‘t know him well“ and with one more close correspondent an added „but honestly, he wasn‘t a good envoy even before that happened“. (Doesn‘t surprise me, given their very different takes on Fritz in particular and Prussia in general.)
A curse on meddling editors; as if Catt‘s own embellishments weren‘t enough!
I mean, it's *probably* not what happened here, but I'm just traumatized by the time I systematically demonstrated that Thiebault was copying Wilhelmine's account, and then discovered we had a doctored version of T's memoirs. But no, I just remembered that Catt's memoirs were edited by Koser, so surely he was not incorporating Voltaire. So I take that back: I think we have evidence that Catt read Voltaire and incorporated at least one of his lines into his memoirs. Will let you know if I find more similarities when the time comes.
it would be all the more reason for Catt to crib that passage, given all the emphasis on him being the instant confidant
This makes sense, yes.
Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich
Agree completely.
the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
Yep, that makes sense to me. But yes about the inevitable Voltaire embellishment, of course. I was reading the MT bio the other day, and discovered/was reminded that it was *Voltaire* who introduced baby Joseph in her arms during her appeal to the Hungarians. I'd misremembered that the problem was that she was pregnant and he wasn't born yet, but it turns out that he was actually a baby, just not present at the appeal to the Hungarians. Voltaire couldn't resist introducing family members to spice up an already exciting scene, it seems.
But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing!
Zomg, no!
Oh, speaking of different takes on Hanbury-Williams, Horowski is big on him being a surrogate father figure to Poniatowski, whereas Asprey says sth to the effect of, "At twenty-two, Stanislaus was allegedly a virgin (though there was talk about his relationship with his fifty-year-old mentor)." And I thought, "Well, Selena did say he was Poniatowski's Suhm!" :P
So he was, and certainly after Catherine Williams is the most crushed upon person in the memoirs, but I do think it remained platonic, not least because to my knowledge there are no other possibly m/m relationships in Poniatowski's life which were gossiped about, and as he had more than his share of enemies and was gossipped about a lot, that's saying something. Also his relationship with Catherine demonstrates that Poniatowski was a) willing to take insane risks when in love and b) despite good intentions, failing at discretion. I doubt he'd have managed to keep a boyfriend secret. And, for what it's worth, he never had syphilis, when Williams was already infected (and had infected his wife) the first time he and Poniatowski met. So the way it came across to me was like young (18, I think) Stanislaus arriving in Berlin as an unhappy, shy nerd ("overeducated" is term used in two books I'ver read) who as the youngest son of a big family hever got much attention from Dad and meets CHW who comes across as a man of the world who has lots of time and affection for him in this city where Stanislaus doesn't know anyone, and provides him with the social savoir faire (dancing, gambling, chit chat) that Poniatowski has from this point onwards. It's not a question of wanting either a Dad or an erastes, he might have wanted a bit of both in the state he was in, but without being conscious of the second. Let's not forget, the same young man is a bit shocked at all the forwardness of the Berlin ladies and their Voltaire mania. (Little does he know...)
As for CHW, that homoerotic poem the authors of the Fritz of Wales & Hervey essay quote is pretty drastic and explicit, so he definitely was acting bi in his younger years, and Poniatowski was a beautiful man (so both Catherine and Lehndorff testify!). Otoh, Williams was also old enough to look for a son/protegé figure. And if he wanted an in to one of the big influentual political families of Poland, for whatever reason, who were, lest we forget, VERY Catholic, infecting their offspring with syphilis was not the way to do it. So even if his feelings weren't just paternal, he probably restrained himself.
I don't disagree, *but*, I'm just going to point to this. ;)
selenak: Btw, did you notice in the earlier write up that Lehndorff mentions Kaphengst having "the French sickness" courtesy of several theatre people?
Fritz: No surprise there. Clearly, that's yet another reason why I told Heinrich to dump him. Heinrich would be dead already if I didn't try to look out for his health out of the goodness of my fraternal heart.
Heinrich: There are ways of having sex with someone who has STD which allow you to remain safe. As someone who actually does get laid on a regular basis would know. I would like to point out here that even the most unflattering accounts of me never accuse me of a) having STD myself, or b) impotence.
(I have never stopped laughing over that last sentence of Heinrich BURN, btw.)
LOL, well, that's true enough, so I suppose it comes down to whether or not we believe Poniatowski himself who was quite explicit on the point that flirtations not withstanding, he was a virgin until Catherine.
Yeah, Sydow was my guess, too, but I didn't have any context. I thought of checking the Fredersdorf letters just now and what do you know, Fritz mentions him - as "Sidau" - in 1745: von Sydow and two other pages are supposed to get velvet clothing, and Richter says in the footnote that he was Fritz' favourite of the three.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 07:40 am (UTC)(Not that Grenell‘s successor is any better. I‘m pretty sure all of Berlin is counting the hours until Biden appoints an US Ambassador to Germany with whom it‘s possible to have a conversation again.)
One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write. They all know Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, so that‘s public knowledge, and that his association with Fritz hails from the Crown Prince days, but I think Voltaire is the only one who mentions Küstrin specifically as well as Fredersdorf‘s ability to play the flute, in his memoirs: (This soldier, who was young, well-made, handsome and played the flute, had more ways than one of amusing the royal prisoner.) Whereas the Hannover envoy reporting to G2 who gave us the Georgii story in 1742, or later French envoys like Tyrconnel, don‘t mention this in their Fredersdorf descriptions, nor does a non-envoy and Prussian noble like Lehndorff who knows, again, that Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, and unlike the foreign envoys knows his home province (Pomerania), but doesn‘t mention him being a flutist, or Küstrin. Conclusion: either Voltaire really did his research about the competition and had better sources than the envoys, or Fritz in a good hour did talk to him about the Küstrin days (Mildred made a good case of this anyway due to the description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs being strictly from Fritz‘ pov), including a bit about Fredersdorf.
Back to good old Hanbury Williams: here‘s what amuses me in particular. In the essay about Hervey and Fritz of Wales, it‘s mentioned that young Charles when hanging out with Hervey & Co., while having plenty of affairs with the ladies, also wrote homoerotic poetry. Then somewhat older Charles Hanbury Williams (by now separated from his wife who rightly objected on his infecting her with syphilis), having secured envoy appointments, manages first to piss off Fritz and then MT. Granted, they‘re both micromanaging despots, but still: it‘s a rare envoy who manages both. Then he goes to Russia and finally manages to achieve what an envoy is supposed to, firstly by negotiating a treaty between his country and the country he‘s posted to, and secondly by creating personal ties with future powerful people (i.e. (P)Russian Pete and Catherine, especially the later)....except the Russia/England contract he negotiated is never ratified by Elizaveta because the 7 Years War happens, and by the time Catherine actually is in a position of authority, CHW has long since returned to Britain and is dead (of tertiary syphilis). Other notable events from his time in Russia were the signs of his illness and mental condition becoming more and more evident (see spectacular argument with Poniatowski, but also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting). Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 11:11 am (UTC)One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write.
Yeah, definitely! And CHW has parts of it wrong here, what with Fredersdorf being Fritz' guard.
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting
Wait, what? Why? Hadn't heard that before.
Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Hee. (It's kind of interesting how people fill in their own context.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 01:05 pm (UTC)It's on page 164 of the second Lehndorff volume ,i.e. the cut bits from the original volume, in this case an entry dated April 1 - 7 (1758):
1. bis 7. April. Marwitz hat noch ein anderes Abenteuer gehabt. Er machte die Überfahrt von Hamburg nach England mit Williams, dem englischen Gesandten in Petersburg, der mehrere Jahre unser erklärter Feind war, vor sechs Monaten aber ein so lebhafter Bewunderer unseres Königs wurde, daß er überall, wo er das Bildnis S. M. sah, auf die Stühle kletterte, um es zu küssen. Dieser selbe Williams ist so verrückt geworden, daß man ihn bei seiner Ankunft in London einsperren mußte. Marwitz kommt mit dem General Yorke zurück. der mit einem besonderen Auftrage an unsern König abgesandt worden ist. Es ist ein noch junger Mann, der aber recht liebenswürdig zu sein scheint.
I dare say the kissing was an indication he was mentally disturbed before ever reaching England, Lehndorff. BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
Agreed; mind you, while I could see good old Caesarion being a bit indiscreet when visiting Voltaire at Cirey, especially since he wants Voltaire to hand over the Pucelle already and figures a bit tit for tat in spicey gossip might do the trick, I still doubt Crown Prince Fritz' valet-plus-treasurer is a natural subject to talk of. My money - if Voltaire's source wasn't Fritz himself - is on Algarotti, who after all travelled with Fritz, AW, and Fredersdorf on the infamous Straßburg trip, thus saw the relationship up close (and at a time when his own relationship with Fritz peaked) and in all the hours of travelling together, "so how did you join the King's service?" is a likely subject. Conversely, Algarotti was on good terms with Voltaire, small bump about the publication of Newton for Ladies notwithstanding, enough so as to defend Voltaire to Fritz on the mourning for Émilie matter and to get an invite from Voltaire when the later had settled down in Switzerland as a fellow Frexit veteran ("let a free man join a free man"). So: Algarotti is my suspect. (If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 02:24 pm (UTC)WHAT? I remembered the kissing, but I totally missed or forgot that it was 1) more than once, 2) involved chair-climbing! Okay, yeah, that's totally syphilis. If it was just kissing a miniature in a small group of people, I was privately thinking that might be political hypocrisy (what else is new among politicians?), but this is crazy.
BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Uuhhh, good question. My American Revolution-fu is weak (studied it in school but never outside of school), but I don't remember a General Yorke. Wikipedia doesn't either. Perhaps you're thinking of the battle of Yorktown, where we tax-dodgers defeated Cornwallis?
If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.
When we found that Fritz talked about it with Mitchell, my estimate of the odds that he talked about it with Voltaire and/or Catt went way up. (Plus, like you reminded me I said, lol, they've both got a very Fritz-centric POV in their accounts.) Mind you, while it's possible Fritz talked about it with Catt, Catt copies Voltaire nearly word-for-word in a different passage that's critical of Fritz, so I'm still inclined to think either Catt read Voltaire or we have another sneaky meddling editor on our hands. When I get to French, I want to read both Voltaire and Catt and see if I can spot other similarities.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 04:38 pm (UTC)Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich, because the version in the diary is narrated from Heinrich‘s pov and focuses on the terror of the children as they hide after FW cuts loose on Wilhelmine, and the lady in waiting coming to the rescue, not, like Wilhelmine‘s version of the same event, on FW yelling accusations and threats against Fritz and herself. And if we combine „description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs narrated from Fritz‘ pov“ with „Voltaire‘s description of Fredersdorf meeting Fritz at Küstrin in the same book contains a bit more factoids than that of other contemporaries“, the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
(Though I still think Algarotti is the most plausible alternate source on Fredersdorf if that didn‘t happen. And of course Voltaire‘s version of the execution, whoever he got it from, is still embellished as hell, what with the watching FW.)
Yorke or Yorktown - you‘re right, I probably associated Yorktown.
Hanbury Williams: yes, miniature kissing would have struck me as a gesture to acknowledge the changed political realities, too. But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing! Note that the Poniatowski biography „The Last King of Poland“ which I read for my Yuletide story and which basically shares Poniatowski‘s very positive view of CHW does not mention this, either. Btw, Williams shows up in Mitchell‘s correspondence a couple of times, mostly after his death because Mitchell got stuck with getting Williams‘ leftover luggage home that travelled after him home to England. As far as I recall, Mitchell‘s take on Williams was basically „poor guy, I didn‘t know him well“ and with one more close correspondent an added „but honestly, he wasn‘t a good envoy even before that happened“. (Doesn‘t surprise me, given their very different takes on Fritz in particular and Prussia in general.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 07:48 pm (UTC)I mean, it's *probably* not what happened here, but I'm just traumatized by the time I systematically demonstrated that Thiebault was copying Wilhelmine's account, and then discovered we had a doctored version of T's memoirs. But no, I just remembered that Catt's memoirs were edited by Koser, so surely he was not incorporating Voltaire. So I take that back: I think we have evidence that Catt read Voltaire and incorporated at least one of his lines into his memoirs. Will let you know if I find more similarities when the time comes.
it would be all the more reason for Catt to crib that passage, given all the emphasis on him being the instant confidant
This makes sense, yes.
Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich
Agree completely.
the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
Yep, that makes sense to me. But yes about the inevitable Voltaire embellishment, of course. I was reading the MT bio the other day, and discovered/was reminded that it was *Voltaire* who introduced baby Joseph in her arms during her appeal to the Hungarians. I'd misremembered that the problem was that she was pregnant and he wasn't born yet, but it turns out that he was actually a baby, just not present at the appeal to the Hungarians. Voltaire couldn't resist introducing family members to spice up an already exciting scene, it seems.
But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing!
Zomg, no!
Oh, speaking of different takes on Hanbury-Williams, Horowski is big on him being a surrogate father figure to Poniatowski, whereas Asprey says sth to the effect of, "At twenty-two, Stanislaus was allegedly a virgin (though there was talk about his relationship with his fifty-year-old mentor)." And I thought, "Well, Selena did say he was Poniatowski's Suhm!" :P
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:52 am (UTC)As for CHW, that homoerotic poem the authors of the Fritz of Wales & Hervey essay quote is pretty drastic and explicit, so he definitely was acting bi in his younger years, and Poniatowski was a beautiful man (so both Catherine and Lehndorff testify!). Otoh, Williams was also old enough to look for a son/protegé figure. And if he wanted an in to one of the big influentual political families of Poland, for whatever reason, who were, lest we forget, VERY Catholic, infecting their offspring with syphilis was not the way to do it. So even if his feelings weren't just paternal, he probably restrained himself.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:27 pm (UTC)Fritz: No surprise there. Clearly, that's yet another reason why I told Heinrich to dump him. Heinrich would be dead already if I didn't try to look out for his health out of the goodness of my fraternal heart.
Heinrich: There are ways of having sex with someone who has STD which allow you to remain safe. As someone who actually does get laid on a regular basis would know. I would like to point out here that even the most unflattering accounts of me never accuse me of a) having STD myself, or b) impotence.
(I have never stopped laughing over that last sentence of Heinrich BURN, btw.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-07 12:31 pm (UTC)Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:52 pm (UTC)Oh, nice! Good detective work!