Not that his Prussian Majesty gives entire confidence either to Podewils or Finkenstein; he reserves that for two persons that constantly reside with him at Potsdam, and whose names are Heichel and Fredersdorff ; the first of whom is his Prussian Majesty's Private Secretary, and who is always kept under the same roof with his Prussian Majesty, and is so well watched, that a person may be at this Court seven years without once seeing him. The other, who is the great favourite, was once a common soldier, and the King took a fancy to him, while he was yet Prince Royal of Prussia, as he was standing sentinel at the door of his apartment. This person has two very odd titles joined together, for he is styled 'valet de chambre', and 'grand tresorier du Roi'. He keeps out of all people's sight as much as Heichel. [Translation: HW didn't meet either of them, because Fritz didn't like him and he was stuck in Berlin. (He only confirms it for Eichel, the "State Prisoner", as he calls him later, but I have no doubt he didn't meet Fredersdorf either.)] But there is lately arose another young man, who has undoubtedly a large share in the King of Prussia's favours : his name is Sedoo : he was not long ago his page, then came to be a lieutenant, and is very lately made a major, and 'premier ecuyer de l'ecurie' de Potsdam, and will undoubtedly soon rise much higher.
I know that I've read somebody calling Fredersdorf Fritz' "favourite" before, but I'm not sure who and when. Also, as I have no idea who he's talking about, I strongly suspect that, due to lack of access, he is both wrong about "Sedoo"'s importance and about the way his name is spelled.
And while I knew he didn't like Fritz, he really really didn't like Fritz and the Prussian "house of bondage" where there is "no liberty left but that of thinking", did he? No wonder he didn't last long. I'm almost impressed that he got Amalie as a source for some inconsequential Voltaire-related details, but I'm not sure that this much bias is very useful in an envoy, for either country, even though he certainly got Fritz' thrifty micromanaging right. Still, I'm a bit amused that HW reports being "in the closet with his Majesty exactly five minutes and a half". And I think I've read the "great in great things, little in littles ones" quote re: Fritz before, but once again I don't remember where. (I also don't agree.)
Finally, also fun, he found a Prussian Lord Hervey (and it wasn't Lehndorff): The other, Count Finkenstein, whom everybody calls Count Fink, is very like the late Lord Hervey, and yet his face is the ugliest I ever saw. But when he speaks, his affectation, the motion of his eyes and shoulders, all his different gestures and grimaces, bring Lord Hervey very strongly into my mind ; and, like that Lord, he is the Queen's favourite (I mean the Queen Mother's); and her Majesty, whether seriously or otherwise I can't tell, calls him "Mon beau Comte Fink". He has parts, and is what, at Berlin, is called 'sçavant', which is to say, that he has read all the modern French story books, from 'Les Egaremens' down to the history of 'Prince Cocquetron'.
(Note to self and/or HW: They call him Count Fink because that's indeed his name, Count Finck of Finckenstein. Karl Wilhelm, to be exact (because as always, way too many of them around), the son of Fritz' old governor, therefore Fritz' playmate as a kid, and his cabinet minister from 1749 until Fritz' death.)
Also, as I have no idea who he's talking about, I strongly suspect that, due to lack of access, he is both wrong about "Sedoo"'s importance and about the way his name is spelled.
My guess would be a member of the von Sydow family. Like you, I have no idea which one, but Wikipedia tells me that this guy was commandant of Küstrin before Lepel, and that he died in Küstrin in 1733, so he was no doubt living there in 1731. Given that the Münchow kids got gainful employment as pages and such because Mom and Dad were so nice to Fritz, it's possible a Sydow relative did too? Unfortunately, this guy's only surviving son is a too old to be a Fritzian page, but maybe there was a nephew or grandson or something. Or it could be totally unrelated!
Possibly of interest only to me, I find that their ancestral seat is a part (Ortsteil) of what is today the Wust-Fischbeck municipality. Their Ortsteil is named Sydow, as are the major streets and the church. This is about 4 km from our Katte crypt.
Finally, also fun, he found a Prussian Lord Hervey (and it wasn't Lehndorff):
Ha!
Wikipedia:
During the Seven Years' War, Frederick issued a secret decree on 10 January 1757, "in the case of his death or capture", which appointed Finckenstein as Regent of Prussia in that event.
!!
Well, that's relevant to two of our fics. No citation given.
Wait, why would we need a regent in 1757? AW is still around and in good health. I severely question this.
Okay, the political correspondence has a set of secret instructions to Finck on that date, indicating the steps to be taken if really bad things happen: an invasion, Fritz's death, Fritz's capture. They include detailed instructions on different invasion scenarios and where to move the royal family and treasury to. They include the phrase "il faut qu'on obéisse à mon frère" in the event of Fritz's capture, which I assume refers to AW. I see nothing about making Finck regent.
Also, selenak, this document answers our question about whether Fritz gave the same orders in the Seven Years' War that he did just before Mollwitz, namely that if he's captured, everyone is to ignore anything he might say and make no attempt to save him. He did.
If I had the fate of being taken prisoner by the enemy, I forbid anyone to have the slightest regard for me, nor to make the slightest reflection on what I might write about my detention. If such a misfortune should happen to me, I want to sacrifice myself for the State, and we must obey my brother, who, as well as all my ministers and generals, will answer me with their head that neither province nor ransom will be offered for me, and that the war will continue, pushing its advantages as if I had never existed in the world.
"No province will be offered" thus supports my fic idea that they might actually consider trading one for him! I wasn't crazy. :DDD I was also dead right that Fritz would probably put up some resistance to the idea. Though obviously he's giving these instructions in advance because he's not sure what he will say when he's actually in prison (given, as you pointed out, Selena, what he did say the last time he was in prison). So there's a lot of flexibility for a fic author as to how cooperative or uncooperative Fritz would be during a rescue attempt.
Yeah, the Regent bit is totally wrong IMO. He put him in charge of executing these particular instructions, see Preuss' footnotes in the Oevres version of the document, which include two appendices that say exactly that: Ordre an das gesammte Etats-Ministerium zu Berlin: Allem demjenigen exacte Folge zu leisten, was, auf gewisse Fälle, ihnen der Etats- und Cabinets-Minister Graf von Finckenstein, im Namen Sr. Königlichen Majestät, nach der ihm ertheilten schriftlichen secreten Instruction sagen und aufgeben wird. (I actually found a Lehndorff entry in October 1757 which says that Finckenstein showed these instructions to EC when everyone was debating whether to leave Berlin, so he seems to have used them as intended, i.e. possibly put his foot down when it came to leaving the city and following Fritz' orders.)
ETA: The question is: What happens if Fritz does get captured (or killed) and AW (or later Heinrich) wants to go against these instructions. Does Finckenstein have the authority to overrule AW on Fritz' orders and would people respect that?
What happens if Fritz does get captured (or killed) and AW (or later Heinrich) wants to go against these instructions. Does Finckenstein have the authority to overrule AW on Fritz' orders and would people respect that?
Which instructions are we talking? Where to take the royal family in the event of an invasion? Trading for Fritz in the event of his capture? Ending the war in the event of his death? Those are three very different things.
If Fritz is dead, I would say AW has the right to do whatever he wants, in just the same way FW2 got to ignore Fritz's will and bury him with FW in a church in a big ceremony. Kings get to reverse their predecessors' decisions.
If Fritz and AW are dead and Heinrich's regent...I'm not sure. I'm going to guess that the same holds (Heinrich does what Heinrich wants, and gets FW2 to sign off on it if necessary).
If Fritz is captured and AW wants to sacrifice a province for him, then everyone has to deal with the consequences of Fritz coming back, taking command, and going, "I said not to do that!" Cue AW getting sent home in disgrace.
Heinrich's a survivor and as regent would probably figure something out, but the big deterrent with disobeying Fritz's orders isn't "Can Finck stop you?" but "What is Fritz going to do to you when he gets back?"
But if, for the sake of argument, Heinrich and/or AW were super determined to get Fritz back no matter what the risk to their personal necks and/or careers? Could Finck stop them? I don't know. I assume he would get it in writing that he had tried very hard, and make sure Fritz saw that writing later. I don't know if he could actually stop negotiations with Austria if both parties were determined to carry out a deal in the face of the instructions and the risks.
I think our fic outline is more plausible, that Heinrich tries for a prisoner trade, just like capturing Seckendorff to trade for Prince Moritz (?). And then Voltaire goes on a crusade. :D
I suspect Heinrich would get an earful, but I don't think he'd get the full AW treatment, if Prussia traded or tried trading Fritz for Joseph. Or at least I think that's plausible enough for fic.
Also, if you look at the Mollwitz letter, it reads, "that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom." I think Heinrich could make a case that trading the King for an archduke and future emperor is worthy enough.
Voltaire, now, is a whole different kettle of fish...someone needs to write this
Heinrich's a survivor and as regent would probably figure something out, but the big deterrent with disobeying Fritz's orders isn't "Can Finck stop you?" but "What is Fritz going to do to you when he gets back?"
No kidding. Hence me letting Mitchell point out to Heinrich that he needs to make some effort at rescueing Fritz, otherwise his reputation and start as Regent will be screwed, when Heinrich on his own might just think obeying Fritzian orders in this particular case (of not making any trade if he‘s captured) would not be a problem. :) But yes, a prisoner exchange rather than trading a province, plus earlier kidnapping, and the tried and true Seckendorff tradition.
And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
What if...what if Heinrich made a public effort to retrieve Fritz, but deliberately set it up to fail, so he gets credit for trying, but can tell himself he's obeying Fritz's orders (and tell Fritz that in case Fritz ever does make it out), and he doesn't have to deal with Fritz's return! And then Voltaire throws a wrench in the works.
And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
Oh, I get you. Odds of me ever doing my Voltaire crusade are minimal. (Both fix-it and corporate AU are more likely. Oh, and late-night roleplay is on the list now.) But you're better at writing than I am, so I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you!
I mean, if you wanted to *plot out* the Voltaire crusade outline without actually writing it, I would totally be up for that :D
(but, like, corporate AU and late-night roleplay are both things I am super excited about! I mean, I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) ) (Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting, though the problem is by the end of it I'd probably really want the fic :P )
but, like, corporate AU and late-night roleplay are both things I am super excited about!
Noted for future reference!
I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) )
Oh, fix-it fic is totally for me. ;) I don't expect anyone else to be super excited about Fritz's happy ending with my 3 favorite boyfriends (and my low-key Katte/Peter ship).
Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting
Oh, definitely, at some point (not now), I'm going to want to talk through the planning. I'm certainly not writing it without having talked through it! And the most likely scenario is that we talk through it and leave it at that, because my muses aren't *that* cooperative. ;)
But not now! Must read Stollberg-Rilinger, then read Orieux, fix sleep, catch up on work that I slacked on during November and December *cough Yuletide*, and hopefully a couple things I owe friends!
this week work kind of blew up on me (not in a bad way, just very busy and may keep being busy for a while), I will try to respond to other salon posts soon (all sorts of cool stuff going on!) but I just wanted to pop in to say here that as far as I can tell I will be asking for the Regent!Heinrich and crusade!Voltaire scenario for Yuletide until the end of time (or until I get it, lol) so you certainly won't run out of opportunities!
I‘m with Mildred: „Sedoo“ sounds like an English native speaker‘s transcription of „Sydow“. Of the many possible members of the clan, maybe this guy, who is the right age to have been a page, and goes on to join the army: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Ludwig_von_Sydow ? And yes, the fact he evidently did not go on to be anyone of importance to Fritz shows how out of the loop Charles Hanbury Williams was. Not just in terms of not being on a good footing with Fritz, but in terms of not having found any reliable sources for gossip and rumors among the higher uppers. For comparison: Guy Dickens was on a bad footing with FW but had SD as a source; Valory, as you‘ve demonstrated, was at first disliked by Fritz (with this presumably getting better once Valory was on campaign with him in Silesia) but managed to befriend not just the rest of the family but other Berlin nobility so had good sources; and then there‘s good old Lövenörn, our main suspect for the source of that Katte pamphlet, who until 1730 got along with FW passably enough while inwardly disliking him and made friends with Fritz, Wilhelmine and Katte. The only friend Hanbury Williams seems to have made in his short time in Berlin was young Poniatowski, a foreigner who didn‘t know anyone there and was very grateful and hero-worshipping for Hanbury Williams basically adopting him. Now granted, this was a friendship of great impact for future events as it led to Poniatowski ending up in Russia and having an affair with Catherine, but in terms of what a British envoy to Prussia is supposed to achieve, it doesn‘t make up for the total failure to connect with anyone else. (Perhaps it‘s save to say that not until Richard Grenell would an English speaking ambassador in Berlin manage to piss off the local government that quickly and fail to achieve anything good for his country.)
(Not that Grenell‘s successor is any better. I‘m pretty sure all of Berlin is counting the hours until Biden appoints an US Ambassador to Germany with whom it‘s possible to have a conversation again.)
One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write. They all know Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, so that‘s public knowledge, and that his association with Fritz hails from the Crown Prince days, but I think Voltaire is the only one who mentions Küstrin specifically as well as Fredersdorf‘s ability to play the flute, in his memoirs: (This soldier, who was young, well-made, handsome and played the flute, had more ways than one of amusing the royal prisoner.) Whereas the Hannover envoy reporting to G2 who gave us the Georgii story in 1742, or later French envoys like Tyrconnel, don‘t mention this in their Fredersdorf descriptions, nor does a non-envoy and Prussian noble like Lehndorff who knows, again, that Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, and unlike the foreign envoys knows his home province (Pomerania), but doesn‘t mention him being a flutist, or Küstrin. Conclusion: either Voltaire really did his research about the competition and had better sources than the envoys, or Fritz in a good hour did talk to him about the Küstrin days (Mildred made a good case of this anyway due to the description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs being strictly from Fritz‘ pov), including a bit about Fredersdorf.
Back to good old Hanbury Williams: here‘s what amuses me in particular. In the essay about Hervey and Fritz of Wales, it‘s mentioned that young Charles when hanging out with Hervey & Co., while having plenty of affairs with the ladies, also wrote homoerotic poetry. Then somewhat older Charles Hanbury Williams (by now separated from his wife who rightly objected on his infecting her with syphilis), having secured envoy appointments, manages first to piss off Fritz and then MT. Granted, they‘re both micromanaging despots, but still: it‘s a rare envoy who manages both. Then he goes to Russia and finally manages to achieve what an envoy is supposed to, firstly by negotiating a treaty between his country and the country he‘s posted to, and secondly by creating personal ties with future powerful people (i.e. (P)Russian Pete and Catherine, especially the later)....except the Russia/England contract he negotiated is never ratified by Elizaveta because the 7 Years War happens, and by the time Catherine actually is in a position of authority, CHW has long since returned to Britain and is dead (of tertiary syphilis). Other notable events from his time in Russia were the signs of his illness and mental condition becoming more and more evident (see spectacular argument with Poniatowski, but also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting). Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Yeah, Sydow was my guess, too, but I didn't have any context. I thought of checking the Fredersdorf letters just now and what do you know, Fritz mentions him - as "Sidau" - in 1745: von Sydow and two other pages are supposed to get velvet clothing, and Richter says in the footnote that he was Fritz' favourite of the three. Plus a second mention, this time from Fredersdorf, about Sydow possibly overstepping and concerning himself with money issues (in his position as stablemaster it seems). Richter actually interprets that as possible jealousy, but, well, it's Richter, and of course he doesn't give the whole letter, but only two very short quotes.
One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write.
Yeah, definitely! And CHW has parts of it wrong here, what with Fredersdorf being Fritz' guard.
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting
Wait, what? Why? Hadn't heard that before.
Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Hee. (It's kind of interesting how people fill in their own context.)
It's on page 164 of the second Lehndorff volume ,i.e. the cut bits from the original volume, in this case an entry dated April 1 - 7 (1758):
1. bis 7. April. Marwitz hat noch ein anderes Abenteuer gehabt. Er machte die Überfahrt von Hamburg nach England mit Williams, dem englischen Gesandten in Petersburg, der mehrere Jahre unser erklärter Feind war, vor sechs Monaten aber ein so lebhafter Bewunderer unseres Königs wurde, daß er überall, wo er das Bildnis S. M. sah, auf die Stühle kletterte, um es zu küssen. Dieser selbe Williams ist so verrückt geworden, daß man ihn bei seiner Ankunft in London einsperren mußte. Marwitz kommt mit dem General Yorke zurück. der mit einem besonderen Auftrage an unsern König abgesandt worden ist. Es ist ein noch junger Mann, der aber recht liebenswürdig zu sein scheint.
I dare say the kissing was an indication he was mentally disturbed before ever reaching England, Lehndorff. BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
Agreed; mind you, while I could see good old Caesarion being a bit indiscreet when visiting Voltaire at Cirey, especially since he wants Voltaire to hand over the Pucelle already and figures a bit tit for tat in spicey gossip might do the trick, I still doubt Crown Prince Fritz' valet-plus-treasurer is a natural subject to talk of. My money - if Voltaire's source wasn't Fritz himself - is on Algarotti, who after all travelled with Fritz, AW, and Fredersdorf on the infamous Straßburg trip, thus saw the relationship up close (and at a time when his own relationship with Fritz peaked) and in all the hours of travelling together, "so how did you join the King's service?" is a likely subject. Conversely, Algarotti was on good terms with Voltaire, small bump about the publication of Newton for Ladies notwithstanding, enough so as to defend Voltaire to Fritz on the mourning for Émilie matter and to get an invite from Voltaire when the later had settled down in Switzerland as a fellow Frexit veteran ("let a free man join a free man"). So: Algarotti is my suspect. (If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.)
er überall, wo er das Bildnis S. M. sah, auf die Stühle kletterte, um es zu küssen.
WHAT? I remembered the kissing, but I totally missed or forgot that it was 1) more than once, 2) involved chair-climbing! Okay, yeah, that's totally syphilis. If it was just kissing a miniature in a small group of people, I was privately thinking that might be political hypocrisy (what else is new among politicians?), but this is crazy.
BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Uuhhh, good question. My American Revolution-fu is weak (studied it in school but never outside of school), but I don't remember a General Yorke. Wikipedia doesn't either. Perhaps you're thinking of the battle of Yorktown, where we tax-dodgers defeated Cornwallis?
If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.
When we found that Fritz talked about it with Mitchell, my estimate of the odds that he talked about it with Voltaire and/or Catt went way up. (Plus, like you reminded me I said, lol, they've both got a very Fritz-centric POV in their accounts.) Mind you, while it's possible Fritz talked about it with Catt, Catt copies Voltaire nearly word-for-word in a different passage that's critical of Fritz, so I'm still inclined to think either Catt read Voltaire or we have another sneaky meddling editor on our hands. When I get to French, I want to read both Voltaire and Catt and see if I can spot other similarities.
A curse on meddling editors; as if Catt‘s own embellishments weren‘t enough! Still, him having read Voltaire is pretty much a given, and if Fritz didn‘t bring up Katte to him - but did with both Mitchell and Voltaire - it would be all the more reason for Catt to crib that passage, given all the emphasis on him being the instant confidant. Otoh, speaking of Catt, this reminds me that Fredersdorf gets edited out of the memoirs while being mentioned at one point in the diary, to wit, in the story of bathing Voltaire getting a visit by il consigliere (or, in the memoirs version, by the Abbé de Prades). Now Catt doesn‘t mention Fritz telling him anything about his backstory with Fredersdorf in either version, but then Catt never met Fredersdorf and only became Fritz‘ reader after Fredersdorf was dead, so it might not have occured to him that this could have been used as further evidence of him being the greatest confidant.
Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich, because the version in the diary is narrated from Heinrich‘s pov and focuses on the terror of the children as they hide after FW cuts loose on Wilhelmine, and the lady in waiting coming to the rescue, not, like Wilhelmine‘s version of the same event, on FW yelling accusations and threats against Fritz and herself. And if we combine „description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs narrated from Fritz‘ pov“ with „Voltaire‘s description of Fredersdorf meeting Fritz at Küstrin in the same book contains a bit more factoids than that of other contemporaries“, the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
(Though I still think Algarotti is the most plausible alternate source on Fredersdorf if that didn‘t happen. And of course Voltaire‘s version of the execution, whoever he got it from, is still embellished as hell, what with the watching FW.)
Yorke or Yorktown - you‘re right, I probably associated Yorktown.
Hanbury Williams: yes, miniature kissing would have struck me as a gesture to acknowledge the changed political realities, too. But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing! Note that the Poniatowski biography „The Last King of Poland“ which I read for my Yuletide story and which basically shares Poniatowski‘s very positive view of CHW does not mention this, either. Btw, Williams shows up in Mitchell‘s correspondence a couple of times, mostly after his death because Mitchell got stuck with getting Williams‘ leftover luggage home that travelled after him home to England. As far as I recall, Mitchell‘s take on Williams was basically „poor guy, I didn‘t know him well“ and with one more close correspondent an added „but honestly, he wasn‘t a good envoy even before that happened“. (Doesn‘t surprise me, given their very different takes on Fritz in particular and Prussia in general.)
A curse on meddling editors; as if Catt‘s own embellishments weren‘t enough!
I mean, it's *probably* not what happened here, but I'm just traumatized by the time I systematically demonstrated that Thiebault was copying Wilhelmine's account, and then discovered we had a doctored version of T's memoirs. But no, I just remembered that Catt's memoirs were edited by Koser, so surely he was not incorporating Voltaire. So I take that back: I think we have evidence that Catt read Voltaire and incorporated at least one of his lines into his memoirs. Will let you know if I find more similarities when the time comes.
it would be all the more reason for Catt to crib that passage, given all the emphasis on him being the instant confidant
This makes sense, yes.
Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich
Agree completely.
the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
Yep, that makes sense to me. But yes about the inevitable Voltaire embellishment, of course. I was reading the MT bio the other day, and discovered/was reminded that it was *Voltaire* who introduced baby Joseph in her arms during her appeal to the Hungarians. I'd misremembered that the problem was that she was pregnant and he wasn't born yet, but it turns out that he was actually a baby, just not present at the appeal to the Hungarians. Voltaire couldn't resist introducing family members to spice up an already exciting scene, it seems.
But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing!
Zomg, no!
Oh, speaking of different takes on Hanbury-Williams, Horowski is big on him being a surrogate father figure to Poniatowski, whereas Asprey says sth to the effect of, "At twenty-two, Stanislaus was allegedly a virgin (though there was talk about his relationship with his fifty-year-old mentor)." And I thought, "Well, Selena did say he was Poniatowski's Suhm!" :P
So he was, and certainly after Catherine Williams is the most crushed upon person in the memoirs, but I do think it remained platonic, not least because to my knowledge there are no other possibly m/m relationships in Poniatowski's life which were gossiped about, and as he had more than his share of enemies and was gossipped about a lot, that's saying something. Also his relationship with Catherine demonstrates that Poniatowski was a) willing to take insane risks when in love and b) despite good intentions, failing at discretion. I doubt he'd have managed to keep a boyfriend secret. And, for what it's worth, he never had syphilis, when Williams was already infected (and had infected his wife) the first time he and Poniatowski met. So the way it came across to me was like young (18, I think) Stanislaus arriving in Berlin as an unhappy, shy nerd ("overeducated" is term used in two books I'ver read) who as the youngest son of a big family hever got much attention from Dad and meets CHW who comes across as a man of the world who has lots of time and affection for him in this city where Stanislaus doesn't know anyone, and provides him with the social savoir faire (dancing, gambling, chit chat) that Poniatowski has from this point onwards. It's not a question of wanting either a Dad or an erastes, he might have wanted a bit of both in the state he was in, but without being conscious of the second. Let's not forget, the same young man is a bit shocked at all the forwardness of the Berlin ladies and their Voltaire mania. (Little does he know...)
As for CHW, that homoerotic poem the authors of the Fritz of Wales & Hervey essay quote is pretty drastic and explicit, so he definitely was acting bi in his younger years, and Poniatowski was a beautiful man (so both Catherine and Lehndorff testify!). Otoh, Williams was also old enough to look for a son/protegé figure. And if he wanted an in to one of the big influentual political families of Poland, for whatever reason, who were, lest we forget, VERY Catholic, infecting their offspring with syphilis was not the way to do it. So even if his feelings weren't just paternal, he probably restrained himself.
I don't disagree, *but*, I'm just going to point to this. ;)
selenak: Btw, did you notice in the earlier write up that Lehndorff mentions Kaphengst having "the French sickness" courtesy of several theatre people?
Fritz: No surprise there. Clearly, that's yet another reason why I told Heinrich to dump him. Heinrich would be dead already if I didn't try to look out for his health out of the goodness of my fraternal heart.
Heinrich: There are ways of having sex with someone who has STD which allow you to remain safe. As someone who actually does get laid on a regular basis would know. I would like to point out here that even the most unflattering accounts of me never accuse me of a) having STD myself, or b) impotence.
(I have never stopped laughing over that last sentence of Heinrich BURN, btw.)
LOL, well, that's true enough, so I suppose it comes down to whether or not we believe Poniatowski himself who was quite explicit on the point that flirtations not withstanding, he was a virgin until Catherine.
Yeah, Sydow was my guess, too, but I didn't have any context. I thought of checking the Fredersdorf letters just now and what do you know, Fritz mentions him - as "Sidau" - in 1745: von Sydow and two other pages are supposed to get velvet clothing, and Richter says in the footnote that he was Fritz' favourite of the three.
This person has two very odd titles joined together, for he is styled 'valet de chambre', and 'grand tresorier du Roi'.
Incidentally, I suspect this came about because it was normal for servants, often including valets, to do most of the management of their masters' finances; Fredersdorf probably was entrusted with this at Ruppin and Rheinsberg; when Fritz became king, and he was willing to trust very few people, control of the treasury went to someone who had already demonstrated his loyalty and competence with money to Fritz, aka Fredersdorf.
And valet de chambre, well, that was a very flexible term in general, but one of the things both lackeys (which Fredersdorf is supposed to have started out as) and valets did, that Fredersdorf also did when Fritz became king, is be deeply involved in filtering out who gets to talk to their powerful employer and whose requests get passed on (by letter or word of mouth), and who's left out in the cold. And that was why being the guy in charge of who gets to talk to Fritz is such a powerful position to be in, and why valets (even of non-royals) were often so influential: when your ability to advance in the world depended on royal and noble favor, you were forever trying to make connections and get someone more powerful to hear your request, and so whoever can admit or refuse you a private audience is worth bribing, and will be resented if they turn you away.
And if Fredersdorf, maybe at Rheinsberg, spent a fair amount of time on the other side of the door of the room Fritz was in, controlling who got to talk to him when, I could see how a sentinel origin story arose.
Btw, I finally figured out one reason I'm not more stoked about Fritz/Fredersdorf: there's too much overlap in their skill sets and personalities. It's also possible that I like it when the employer stays put, running things, and the servant goes around the countryside being their arms and legs and eyes and ears (Norrell and Childermass being a good example), but there may be exceptions to that. But I'm pretty sure I'm reacting to Fritz and Fredersdorf *both* playing the flute and *both* being good at administrative stuff and *both* being somewhat antisocial and so forth. I can see why it was a great relationship irl, but it's failing to push my ship buttons strongly for this reason.
I like to have reasons for why my brain does what it does, so this is good. :)
I see what you mean except for "both somewhat antisocial". Granted, Lehndorff names "desire for a quiet life" along with "ill health" and "jealousy of the famous Glasow" as reasons for Fredersdorf's retirement when he visits him only a few months before his death, but he also praises Fredersdorf's "grace of conduct", and the accounts of younger Fredersdorf by other sources circle around such adjectives as "polite, attentive and cheerful". (More critical accounts add "somewhat despotic" in the execution of his offices.) And of course, there's the testimony of Mrs. Fredersdorf as given to her grandson, in which she says she "lived with him in such blessed liberty, accordance and inner cheerfulness", and the fact there was a Mrs. Fredersdorf to begin with, for whatever reason. (As you know, my speculation is that Fredersdorf had started to look for an heir so his estate and business wouldn't go back to the crown and be possibly ruined by a noble next, and he knew her through her father and knew she was smart, energetic and capable.) This doesn't sound like a somewhat antisocial man to me. (He also had to see and interact with a lot of people in his various positions, but these were his jobs, so I'm not necessarily counting this as proof for his natural inclination to sociability or lack of same.) I'm also struck that one of the earliest Fredersdorf descriptions - by Hofrat König from Saxony - has him as "a very handsome, cheerful and courteous man who is not lacking either intelligence or manners" - and the very late descriptions by Lehndorff and by Mrs. Fredersdorf basically list the same qualities, including the cheerfulness (Mrs. Fredersdorf) and the courtersy, good manners and intelligence (Lehndorff).
Now, given that Fredersdorf in his last years of life was almost constantly ill and must have been under considerable physical pain, it would have been understandable if he'd become somewhat sour or snappish, or at least would have lost his good humor. And he wasn't in office anymore when Lehndorff came to visit him. He also very likely knew he was dying. He could have refused to see this visitor (after all, they hadn't been friends from old times, Lehndorff had no claim on him), or could have been ungracious and tried to get rid of him, but no. Basically, what I'm trying to say is: I can't see a somewhat anti social man giving someone like Lehndorff at this point the time of the day.
None of which means you're not right that a lot of Fritz' and Fredersdorf's qualities overlap! Just not this particular one, which I see as one of those areas where they were different.
Perhaps "antisocial" was the wrong way to phrase it (though I note the qualifier!), but most of those examples don't strike me as strong counterevidence. Especially the marriage: I'm extremely antisocial, not just somewhat, and aromantic and asexual to boot, and still managed to end up married and nice to my wife! I maintain that Fritz was "married" to Fredersdorf and might well have ended up married to Katte if things had been different (see also my modern AU). :P
Fredersdorf was certainly less of an asshole than Fritz (I note the complaints about despotism but take them with a grain of salt; disappointed people who want something from him are going to resent him, whether fairly or unfairly, so we just don't know), but as for how sociable he was...I know a lot of antisocial people who are polite and well-liked when they interact with people, and who even seek out jobs that require people skills and a lot of interpersonal interactions, but whose personal preference is generally to be more reserved and introverted, even if they form some close friendships (and Fritz certainly did and was very sociable in small groups).
The problem with Fredersdorf is the quality of the evidence: we've got people who complain that he's difficult to access (but they want something from him), sympathetic accounts that seem to describe the same thing as well (but there are class divides and language barriers), and a general lack of the sheer amount of detail that we have for Fritz, especially outside a work context.
Choosing to see Lehndorff shortly before his death is probably the strongest counterexample in my opinion. Though I would note that Fritz also accepted random visitors when he was in the mood, and got to know Lucchesini in his old age, and was certainly sociable on his own terms! This is why I said "somewhat" for both of them, not "extremely": I have people I socialize with, but accepting random visitors is a no for me.
But ultimately, what I was getting at was that I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, the way Childermass's does with Norrell. Where Childermass is also pretty introverted, but he does all the riding around talking to people and acquiring books, while Norrell stays locked in a library working spells, and that pushes my buttons. I feel like Fritz and Fredersdorf interact with different people, like Fredersdorf handling the hiring and firing of musicians, and Fritz interacting more with the officers, but to me that feels more like delegation than a really deep difference. The differences in their personalities are indisputably there, but they don't align in a way that pushes my buttons. Alas! But at least now I know *why*.
TL;DR: Regardless of what Fredersdorf's actual personality was like behind the screen of historical evidence, the thing that's missing for me in terms of shipping Fritz/Fredersdorf is a sense that their dynamic is obviously driven by one party's much greater willingness to interact with people or ability to interact with them on a different level. Denethor and Boromir, for an example of a non-romantic close working relationship, gives me that same sense of really striking, really obvious complementary skills, personalities, and interactions with people (which I have of course fleshed out with additional headcanon ;)).
but they didn't have the internet back then I know, I know, I just couldn't resist :P
Fredersdorf being really good with people (and liking people!) had always been my headcanon -- I even remember saying something to you during writing "Counterpoint" as to how it was hard for the two of us to write him! :) I suppose I'm not qualified to have an opinion as if salon has shown us anything it has shown us that I am terrible about believing things taken out of context, but I kind of think that even though one piece of evidence isn't perhaps strong (and as you say the marriage is the least strong piece), as a group they do tend to indicate someone who was at least reasonably social.
Though I don't disagree with you when you say I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, though my perception is that this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?) So I can see why you wouldn't ship them even if Fredersdorf was the most charming and social person in the world :P
Now I, on the other hand, have a really strong loyalty kink, and I suspect it doesn't really matter to me what the personality dynamic is nearly so much as it does that there's a power differential and a strong loyalty element, lol.
Huhhhhh do you mean Denethor and Boromir or Faramir and Boromir? I hadn't thought Denethor and Boromir had particularly obviously complementary skills, though I would say Faramir and Boromir did! Buuuuut this may also have a lot to do with my headcanon for them all, as well as that it's been a while since I've read the books last!
These are fair points! I mean, Fritz is intensely social with select people, and outside of that most of his interactions are work-related, and he's comfortable with significant alone time though he prefers his small select groups, and I headcanon Fredersdorf as not being tremendously different in those respects, but you've both convinced me that other interpretations are possible!
Certainly Fredersdorf doesn't go full-on asshole with people the same way as Fritz does, and he quite likely understands what makes people tick better than our Fritz (which is a headcanon I agree with). But what I don't see is Fritz going, "God, I hate dealing with people; you deal with people." What I see is Fritz going, "I've only got 24 hours in the day, and unfortunately I need to sleep 4 of them, so I'll deal with these people and you deal with those people."
Which means, yes, I agree completely with:
this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?)
So even if Fredersdorf was a total social butterfly on his own time, I don't see it driving how he works with Fritz. And apparently that kind of complementarity is a huge part of my narrative kink for relationships (not necessarily romantic or sexual) between "person in charge" and "the person that person relies on most for the parts they're not good at or don't like doing."
This is apparently a hugely consistent button-pusher for me, from Norrell and Childermass to Diocletian and Maximian (whom I requested for Yuletide for exactly this reason), from Denethor and Boromir to Burns and Smithers (lol, my crackship), and it occurs to me that that's exactly how I wrote Mags and Finnick, who are essentially both OCs in my AU.
And yes, I extremely meant Denethor and Boromir! Behold canon:
Denethor II was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore...Denethor ...would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. None of the Stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur...Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles.
So canonically Denethor sits alone in his tower, gathering information and reading minds and politicking and staring into the palantir and doing high-level strategy, and presumably doing paperwork or the equivalent thereof, and Boromir goes out in the field and wages war in person, and goes on a quest to Imladris, and so on. And my headcanon has Boromir more approachable and better able to bond with his men over a beer, in a way that actually gets things done that Denethor needs done but can't do himself. While the last thing Boromir wants is to sit alone in a tower thinking. :P
The part where neither of them wants to do the part the other is doing and their skill sets align in a perfectly complementary way, and there's deep trust and respect between them, is my absolute favorite.
This is kind of like us and our magical alchemy, now that I think of it. :D Our skill sets and interests align, and we build on each other's contributions, such that the whole of what we achieve is greater than the sum of its parts.
And this is why my strongest emotional responses to physical gestures of loyalty are from Maximian to Diocletian and Finnick to Mags (as I showed you), and not from Fredersdorf to Fritz. Combine complementary skills resulting in magical alchemy with deep 100% trust and commitment, and preferably add in a hurt/comfort element, and that's where a physical gesture of loyalty will sock me right in the feels.
I would say Faramir and Boromir did!
This is because Faramir and Denethor overlap a lot in their skills! Different personalities, but similar skill sets. I ship Faramir and Boromir hard as (non-incestuous) brothers, but since they never end up in that dynamic where Boromir is Faramir's trusted second-in-command, they push very different buttons for me than Denethor and Boromir. (Though the complementarity definitely helps.)
It occurs to me that even though my feelings for Boromir and Faramir are much stronger than my feelings for Denethor and Boromir (or, say, Diocletian and Maximian), and even though they complement each other well, and even though their mutual trust and commitment and loyalty is absolute, physical gestures of loyalty from one to the other don't work for me, because they don't have that incredibly specific dynamic of "first in command"/"second in command", where the first in command is more intellectual or stay-at-home, and/or the second in command has more physical or military prowess, or at least goes out and interacts with the world more, being the arms and legs and eyes and ears of the person they're reporting to.
Okay, I'm realizing just how *extremely* specific this narrative kink is. :P It does explain why these exact conditions haven't been met in this fandom yet! And Amalie to Heinrich has basically no overlap in this Venn diagram, so you can see why you had to ask me to insert that gesture of loyalty.
Ha. I'm actually surprised these conditions get met as often as they do, honestly. I can tell you they feature heavily in my unwritten OC stories in my head. :)
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timeasmymeasure
Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-04 08:30 pm (UTC)Not that his Prussian Majesty gives entire confidence either to Podewils or Finkenstein; he reserves that for two persons that constantly reside with him at Potsdam, and whose names are Heichel and Fredersdorff ; the first of whom is his Prussian Majesty's Private Secretary, and who is always kept under the same roof with his Prussian Majesty, and is so well watched, that a person may be at this Court seven years without once seeing him. The other, who is the great favourite, was once a common soldier, and the King took a fancy to him, while he was yet Prince Royal of Prussia, as he was standing sentinel at the door of his apartment. This person has two very odd titles joined together, for he is styled 'valet de chambre', and 'grand tresorier du Roi'. He keeps out of all people's sight as much as Heichel. [Translation: HW didn't meet either of them, because Fritz didn't like him and he was stuck in Berlin. (He only confirms it for Eichel, the "State Prisoner", as he calls him later, but I have no doubt he didn't meet Fredersdorf either.)]
But there is lately arose another young man, who has undoubtedly a large share in the King of Prussia's favours : his name is Sedoo : he was not long ago his page, then came to be a lieutenant, and is very lately made a major, and 'premier ecuyer de l'ecurie' de Potsdam, and will undoubtedly soon rise much higher.
I know that I've read somebody calling Fredersdorf Fritz' "favourite" before, but I'm not sure who and when. Also, as I have no idea who he's talking about, I strongly suspect that, due to lack of access, he is both wrong about "Sedoo"'s importance and about the way his name is spelled.
And while I knew he didn't like Fritz, he really really didn't like Fritz and the Prussian "house of bondage" where there is "no liberty left but that of thinking", did he? No wonder he didn't last long. I'm almost impressed that he got Amalie as a source for some inconsequential Voltaire-related details, but I'm not sure that this much bias is very useful in an envoy, for either country, even though he certainly got Fritz' thrifty micromanaging right. Still, I'm a bit amused that HW reports being "in the closet with his Majesty exactly five minutes and a half". And I think I've read the "great in great things, little in littles ones" quote re: Fritz before, but once again I don't remember where. (I also don't agree.)
Finally, also fun, he found a Prussian Lord Hervey (and it wasn't Lehndorff): The other, Count Finkenstein, whom everybody calls Count Fink, is very like the late Lord Hervey, and yet his face is the ugliest I ever saw. But when he speaks, his affectation, the motion of his eyes and shoulders, all his different gestures and grimaces, bring Lord Hervey very strongly into my mind ; and, like that Lord, he is the Queen's favourite (I mean the Queen Mother's); and her Majesty, whether seriously or otherwise I can't tell, calls him "Mon beau Comte Fink". He has parts, and is what, at Berlin, is called 'sçavant', which is to say, that he has read all the modern French story books, from 'Les Egaremens' down to the history of 'Prince Cocquetron'.
(Note to self and/or HW: They call him Count Fink because that's indeed his name, Count Finck of Finckenstein. Karl Wilhelm, to be exact (because as always, way too many of them around), the son of Fritz' old governor, therefore Fritz' playmate as a kid, and his cabinet minister from 1749 until Fritz' death.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-04 09:36 pm (UTC)Also, as I have no idea who he's talking about, I strongly suspect that, due to lack of access, he is both wrong about "Sedoo"'s importance and about the way his name is spelled.
My guess would be a member of the von Sydow family. Like you, I have no idea which one, but Wikipedia tells me that this guy was commandant of Küstrin before Lepel, and that he died in Küstrin in 1733, so he was no doubt living there in 1731. Given that the Münchow kids got gainful employment as pages and such because Mom and Dad were so nice to Fritz, it's possible a Sydow relative did too? Unfortunately, this guy's only surviving son is a too old to be a Fritzian page, but maybe there was a nephew or grandson or something. Or it could be totally unrelated!
Possibly of interest only to me, I find that their ancestral seat is a part (Ortsteil) of what is today the Wust-Fischbeck municipality. Their Ortsteil is named Sydow, as are the major streets and the church. This is about 4 km from our Katte crypt.
Finally, also fun, he found a Prussian Lord Hervey (and it wasn't Lehndorff):
Ha!
Wikipedia:
During the Seven Years' War, Frederick issued a secret decree on 10 January 1757, "in the case of his death or capture", which appointed Finckenstein as Regent of Prussia in that event.
!!
Well, that's relevant to two of our fics. No citation given.
Wait, why would we need a regent in 1757? AW is still around and in good health. I severely question this.
Okay, the political correspondence has a set of secret instructions to Finck on that date, indicating the steps to be taken if really bad things happen: an invasion, Fritz's death, Fritz's capture. They include detailed instructions on different invasion scenarios and where to move the royal family and treasury to. They include the phrase "il faut qu'on obéisse à mon frère" in the event of Fritz's capture, which I assume refers to AW. I see nothing about making Finck regent.
Also,
If I had the fate of being taken prisoner by the enemy, I forbid anyone to have the slightest regard for me, nor to make the slightest reflection on what I might write about my detention. If such a misfortune should happen to me, I want to sacrifice myself for the State, and we must obey my brother, who, as well as all my ministers and generals, will answer me with their head that neither province nor ransom will be offered for me, and that the war will continue, pushing its advantages as if I had never existed in the world.
"No province will be offered" thus supports my fic idea that they might actually consider trading one for him! I wasn't crazy. :DDD I was also dead right that Fritz would probably put up some resistance to the idea. Though obviously he's giving these instructions in advance because he's not sure what he will say when he's actually in prison (given, as you pointed out, Selena, what he did say the last time he was in prison). So there's a lot of flexibility for a fic author as to how cooperative or uncooperative Fritz would be during a rescue attempt.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-04 10:45 pm (UTC)ETA: The question is: What happens if Fritz does get captured (or killed) and AW (or later Heinrich) wants to go against these instructions. Does Finckenstein have the authority to overrule AW on Fritz' orders and would people respect that?
Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-04 11:33 pm (UTC)Which instructions are we talking? Where to take the royal family in the event of an invasion? Trading for Fritz in the event of his capture? Ending the war in the event of his death? Those are three very different things.
If Fritz is dead, I would say AW has the right to do whatever he wants, in just the same way FW2 got to ignore Fritz's will and bury him with FW in a church in a big ceremony. Kings get to reverse their predecessors' decisions.
If Fritz and AW are dead and Heinrich's regent...I'm not sure. I'm going to guess that the same holds (Heinrich does what Heinrich wants, and gets FW2 to sign off on it if necessary).
If Fritz is captured and AW wants to sacrifice a province for him, then everyone has to deal with the consequences of Fritz coming back, taking command, and going, "I said not to do that!" Cue AW getting sent home in disgrace.
Heinrich's a survivor and as regent would probably figure something out, but the big deterrent with disobeying Fritz's orders isn't "Can Finck stop you?" but "What is Fritz going to do to you when he gets back?"
But if, for the sake of argument, Heinrich and/or AW were super determined to get Fritz back no matter what the risk to their personal necks and/or careers? Could Finck stop them? I don't know. I assume he would get it in writing that he had tried very hard, and make sure Fritz saw that writing later. I don't know if he could actually stop negotiations with Austria if both parties were determined to carry out a deal in the face of the instructions and the risks.
I think our fic outline is more plausible, that Heinrich tries for a prisoner trade, just like capturing Seckendorff to trade for Prince Moritz (?). And then Voltaire goes on a crusade. :D
I suspect Heinrich would get an earful, but I don't think he'd get the full AW treatment, if Prussia traded or tried trading Fritz for Joseph. Or at least I think that's plausible enough for fic.
Also, if you look at the Mollwitz letter, it reads, "that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom." I think Heinrich could make a case that trading the King for an archduke and future emperor is worthy enough.
Voltaire, now, is a whole different kettle of fish...
someone needs to write thisRe: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 07:55 am (UTC)No kidding. Hence me letting Mitchell point out to Heinrich that he needs to make some effort at rescueing Fritz, otherwise his reputation and start as Regent will be screwed, when Heinrich on his own might just think obeying Fritzian orders in this particular case (of not making any trade if he‘s captured) would not be a problem. :) But yes, a prisoner exchange rather than trading a province, plus earlier kidnapping, and the tried and true Seckendorff tradition.
And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 02:14 pm (UTC)And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
Oh, I get you. Odds of me ever doing my Voltaire crusade are minimal. (Both fix-it and corporate AU are more likely. Oh, and late-night roleplay is on the list now.) But you're better at writing than I am, so I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 04:35 pm (UTC)(but, like, corporate AU and late-night roleplay are both things I am super excited about! I mean, I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) ) (Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting, though the problem is by the end of it I'd probably really want the fic :P )
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 06:14 pm (UTC)Noted for future reference!
I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) )
Oh, fix-it fic is totally for me. ;) I don't expect anyone else to be super excited about Fritz's happy ending with my 3 favorite boyfriends (and my low-key Katte/Peter ship).
Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting
Oh, definitely, at some point (not now), I'm going to want to talk through the planning. I'm certainly not writing it without having talked through it! And the most likely scenario is that we talk through it and leave it at that, because my muses aren't *that* cooperative. ;)
But not now! Must read Stollberg-Rilinger, then read Orieux, fix sleep, catch up on work that I slacked on during November and December *cough Yuletide*, and hopefully a couple things I owe friends!
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 04:27 pm (UTC)Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 07:40 am (UTC)(Not that Grenell‘s successor is any better. I‘m pretty sure all of Berlin is counting the hours until Biden appoints an US Ambassador to Germany with whom it‘s possible to have a conversation again.)
One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write. They all know Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, so that‘s public knowledge, and that his association with Fritz hails from the Crown Prince days, but I think Voltaire is the only one who mentions Küstrin specifically as well as Fredersdorf‘s ability to play the flute, in his memoirs: (This soldier, who was young, well-made, handsome and played the flute, had more ways than one of amusing the royal prisoner.) Whereas the Hannover envoy reporting to G2 who gave us the Georgii story in 1742, or later French envoys like Tyrconnel, don‘t mention this in their Fredersdorf descriptions, nor does a non-envoy and Prussian noble like Lehndorff who knows, again, that Fredersdorf used to be a common soldier, and unlike the foreign envoys knows his home province (Pomerania), but doesn‘t mention him being a flutist, or Küstrin. Conclusion: either Voltaire really did his research about the competition and had better sources than the envoys, or Fritz in a good hour did talk to him about the Küstrin days (Mildred made a good case of this anyway due to the description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs being strictly from Fritz‘ pov), including a bit about Fredersdorf.
Back to good old Hanbury Williams: here‘s what amuses me in particular. In the essay about Hervey and Fritz of Wales, it‘s mentioned that young Charles when hanging out with Hervey & Co., while having plenty of affairs with the ladies, also wrote homoerotic poetry. Then somewhat older Charles Hanbury Williams (by now separated from his wife who rightly objected on his infecting her with syphilis), having secured envoy appointments, manages first to piss off Fritz and then MT. Granted, they‘re both micromanaging despots, but still: it‘s a rare envoy who manages both. Then he goes to Russia and finally manages to achieve what an envoy is supposed to, firstly by negotiating a treaty between his country and the country he‘s posted to, and secondly by creating personal ties with future powerful people (i.e. (P)Russian Pete and Catherine, especially the later)....except the Russia/England contract he negotiated is never ratified by Elizaveta because the 7 Years War happens, and by the time Catherine actually is in a position of authority, CHW has long since returned to Britain and is dead (of tertiary syphilis). Other notable events from his time in Russia were the signs of his illness and mental condition becoming more and more evident (see spectacular argument with Poniatowski, but also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting). Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 11:11 am (UTC)One intriguing aspect of the CHW report: in terms of „what was the contemporary gossip?“, I find out of course interesting to compare what he notes down about Fredersdorf to what the other envoys (and other contemporaries) write.
Yeah, definitely! And CHW has parts of it wrong here, what with Fredersdorf being Fritz' guard.
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
also him kissing Fritz‘ picture in public shortly before his reposting
Wait, what? Why? Hadn't heard that before.
Yet what‘s the standard characterisation of Hanbury Williams in just about any fictional take on young Catherine? Wise old mentor, voice of sanity at the Russian court, placidly tempered.
Hee. (It's kind of interesting how people fill in their own context.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 01:05 pm (UTC)It's on page 164 of the second Lehndorff volume ,i.e. the cut bits from the original volume, in this case an entry dated April 1 - 7 (1758):
1. bis 7. April. Marwitz hat noch ein anderes Abenteuer gehabt. Er machte die Überfahrt von Hamburg nach England mit Williams, dem englischen Gesandten in Petersburg, der mehrere Jahre unser erklärter Feind war, vor sechs Monaten aber ein so lebhafter Bewunderer unseres Königs wurde, daß er überall, wo er das Bildnis S. M. sah, auf die Stühle kletterte, um es zu küssen. Dieser selbe Williams ist so verrückt geworden, daß man ihn bei seiner Ankunft in London einsperren mußte. Marwitz kommt mit dem General Yorke zurück. der mit einem besonderen Auftrage an unsern König abgesandt worden ist. Es ist ein noch junger Mann, der aber recht liebenswürdig zu sein scheint.
I dare say the kissing was an indication he was mentally disturbed before ever reaching England, Lehndorff. BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Re: Voltaire - I'm inclined to think that Fritz talked to him about it, too, but he also met a lot of other close friends of his, including Keyserlingk for example. I'm not sure how much they'd have told him without Fritz' permission - Keyserlingk in particular seems to have been very loyal - but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
Agreed; mind you, while I could see good old Caesarion being a bit indiscreet when visiting Voltaire at Cirey, especially since he wants Voltaire to hand over the Pucelle already and figures a bit tit for tat in spicey gossip might do the trick, I still doubt Crown Prince Fritz' valet-plus-treasurer is a natural subject to talk of. My money - if Voltaire's source wasn't Fritz himself - is on Algarotti, who after all travelled with Fritz, AW, and Fredersdorf on the infamous Straßburg trip, thus saw the relationship up close (and at a time when his own relationship with Fritz peaked) and in all the hours of travelling together, "so how did you join the King's service?" is a likely subject. Conversely, Algarotti was on good terms with Voltaire, small bump about the publication of Newton for Ladies notwithstanding, enough so as to defend Voltaire to Fritz on the mourning for Émilie matter and to get an invite from Voltaire when the later had settled down in Switzerland as a fellow Frexit veteran ("let a free man join a free man"). So: Algarotti is my suspect. (If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 02:24 pm (UTC)WHAT? I remembered the kissing, but I totally missed or forgot that it was 1) more than once, 2) involved chair-climbing! Okay, yeah, that's totally syphilis. If it was just kissing a miniature in a small group of people, I was privately thinking that might be political hypocrisy (what else is new among politicians?), but this is crazy.
BTW, I take it this Yorke is the general who'll later fight the Yankee tax dodgers in the revolutionary war?
Uuhhh, good question. My American Revolution-fu is weak (studied it in school but never outside of school), but I don't remember a General Yorke. Wikipedia doesn't either. Perhaps you're thinking of the battle of Yorktown, where we tax-dodgers defeated Cornwallis?
If, like I said, it wasn't Fritz himself.
When we found that Fritz talked about it with Mitchell, my estimate of the odds that he talked about it with Voltaire and/or Catt went way up. (Plus, like you reminded me I said, lol, they've both got a very Fritz-centric POV in their accounts.) Mind you, while it's possible Fritz talked about it with Catt, Catt copies Voltaire nearly word-for-word in a different passage that's critical of Fritz, so I'm still inclined to think either Catt read Voltaire or we have another sneaky meddling editor on our hands. When I get to French, I want to read both Voltaire and Catt and see if I can spot other similarities.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 04:38 pm (UTC)Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich, because the version in the diary is narrated from Heinrich‘s pov and focuses on the terror of the children as they hide after FW cuts loose on Wilhelmine, and the lady in waiting coming to the rescue, not, like Wilhelmine‘s version of the same event, on FW yelling accusations and threats against Fritz and herself. And if we combine „description of Katte‘s execution in Voltaire‘s memoirs narrated from Fritz‘ pov“ with „Voltaire‘s description of Fredersdorf meeting Fritz at Küstrin in the same book contains a bit more factoids than that of other contemporaries“, the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
(Though I still think Algarotti is the most plausible alternate source on Fredersdorf if that didn‘t happen. And of course Voltaire‘s version of the execution, whoever he got it from, is still embellished as hell, what with the watching FW.)
Yorke or Yorktown - you‘re right, I probably associated Yorktown.
Hanbury Williams: yes, miniature kissing would have struck me as a gesture to acknowledge the changed political realities, too. But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing! Note that the Poniatowski biography „The Last King of Poland“ which I read for my Yuletide story and which basically shares Poniatowski‘s very positive view of CHW does not mention this, either. Btw, Williams shows up in Mitchell‘s correspondence a couple of times, mostly after his death because Mitchell got stuck with getting Williams‘ leftover luggage home that travelled after him home to England. As far as I recall, Mitchell‘s take on Williams was basically „poor guy, I didn‘t know him well“ and with one more close correspondent an added „but honestly, he wasn‘t a good envoy even before that happened“. (Doesn‘t surprise me, given their very different takes on Fritz in particular and Prussia in general.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-05 07:48 pm (UTC)I mean, it's *probably* not what happened here, but I'm just traumatized by the time I systematically demonstrated that Thiebault was copying Wilhelmine's account, and then discovered we had a doctored version of T's memoirs. But no, I just remembered that Catt's memoirs were edited by Koser, so surely he was not incorporating Voltaire. So I take that back: I think we have evidence that Catt read Voltaire and incorporated at least one of his lines into his memoirs. Will let you know if I find more similarities when the time comes.
it would be all the more reason for Catt to crib that passage, given all the emphasis on him being the instant confidant
This makes sense, yes.
Anyway, pov is a clue, hence also my suspicion that Catt got the account of FW‘s return of terror in the August of 1730 which in the memoirs he gives to Fritz when he actually heard it in Heinrich’s camp while Fritz was at Kunersdorf either from Heinrich directly or from someone (Kalckreuth, or another member of Heinrich‘s entourage) who got it from Heinrich
Agree completely.
the conclusion that Fritz could have, in one of those times when they were really getting along, bared his soul to Voltaire about the Küstrin experience is pretty seductive.
Yep, that makes sense to me. But yes about the inevitable Voltaire embellishment, of course. I was reading the MT bio the other day, and discovered/was reminded that it was *Voltaire* who introduced baby Joseph in her arms during her appeal to the Hungarians. I'd misremembered that the problem was that she was pregnant and he wasn't born yet, but it turns out that he was actually a baby, just not present at the appeal to the Hungarians. Voltaire couldn't resist introducing family members to spice up an already exciting scene, it seems.
But not repeated chair climbing and (larger) portrait kissing!
Zomg, no!
Oh, speaking of different takes on Hanbury-Williams, Horowski is big on him being a surrogate father figure to Poniatowski, whereas Asprey says sth to the effect of, "At twenty-two, Stanislaus was allegedly a virgin (though there was talk about his relationship with his fifty-year-old mentor)." And I thought, "Well, Selena did say he was Poniatowski's Suhm!" :P
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:52 am (UTC)As for CHW, that homoerotic poem the authors of the Fritz of Wales & Hervey essay quote is pretty drastic and explicit, so he definitely was acting bi in his younger years, and Poniatowski was a beautiful man (so both Catherine and Lehndorff testify!). Otoh, Williams was also old enough to look for a son/protegé figure. And if he wanted an in to one of the big influentual political families of Poland, for whatever reason, who were, lest we forget, VERY Catholic, infecting their offspring with syphilis was not the way to do it. So even if his feelings weren't just paternal, he probably restrained himself.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:27 pm (UTC)Fritz: No surprise there. Clearly, that's yet another reason why I told Heinrich to dump him. Heinrich would be dead already if I didn't try to look out for his health out of the goodness of my fraternal heart.
Heinrich: There are ways of having sex with someone who has STD which allow you to remain safe. As someone who actually does get laid on a regular basis would know. I would like to point out here that even the most unflattering accounts of me never accuse me of a) having STD myself, or b) impotence.
(I have never stopped laughing over that last sentence of Heinrich BURN, btw.)
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-07 12:31 pm (UTC)Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:52 pm (UTC)Oh, nice! Good detective work!
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-06 06:51 pm (UTC)Incidentally, I suspect this came about because it was normal for servants, often including valets, to do most of the management of their masters' finances; Fredersdorf probably was entrusted with this at Ruppin and Rheinsberg; when Fritz became king, and he was willing to trust very few people, control of the treasury went to someone who had already demonstrated his loyalty and competence with money to Fritz, aka Fredersdorf.
And valet de chambre, well, that was a very flexible term in general, but one of the things both lackeys (which Fredersdorf is supposed to have started out as) and valets did, that Fredersdorf also did when Fritz became king, is be deeply involved in filtering out who gets to talk to their powerful employer and whose requests get passed on (by letter or word of mouth), and who's left out in the cold. And that was why being the guy in charge of who gets to talk to Fritz is such a powerful position to be in, and why valets (even of non-royals) were often so influential: when your ability to advance in the world depended on royal and noble favor, you were forever trying to make connections and get someone more powerful to hear your request, and so whoever can admit or refuse you a private audience is worth bribing, and will be resented if they turn you away.
And if Fredersdorf, maybe at Rheinsberg, spent a fair amount of time on the other side of the door of the room Fritz was in, controlling who got to talk to him when, I could see how a sentinel origin story arose.
Btw, I finally figured out one reason I'm not more stoked about Fritz/Fredersdorf: there's too much overlap in their skill sets and personalities. It's also possible that I like it when the employer stays put, running things, and the servant goes around the countryside being their arms and legs and eyes and ears (Norrell and Childermass being a good example), but there may be exceptions to that. But I'm pretty sure I'm reacting to Fritz and Fredersdorf *both* playing the flute and *both* being good at administrative stuff and *both* being somewhat antisocial and so forth. I can see why it was a great relationship irl, but it's failing to push my ship buttons strongly for this reason.
I like to have reasons for why my brain does what it does, so this is good. :)
Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-07 12:20 pm (UTC)Now, given that Fredersdorf in his last years of life was almost constantly ill and must have been under considerable physical pain, it would have been understandable if he'd become somewhat sour or snappish, or at least would have lost his good humor. And he wasn't in office anymore when Lehndorff came to visit him. He also very likely knew he was dying. He could have refused to see this visitor (after all, they hadn't been friends from old times, Lehndorff had no claim on him), or could have been ungracious and tried to get rid of him, but no. Basically, what I'm trying to say is: I can't see a somewhat anti social man giving someone like Lehndorff at this point the time of the day.
None of which means you're not right that a lot of Fritz' and Fredersdorf's qualities overlap! Just not this particular one, which I see as one of those areas where they were different.
Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-07 03:29 pm (UTC)Fredersdorf was certainly less of an asshole than Fritz (I note the complaints about despotism but take them with a grain of salt; disappointed people who want something from him are going to resent him, whether fairly or unfairly, so we just don't know), but as for how sociable he was...I know a lot of antisocial people who are polite and well-liked when they interact with people, and who even seek out jobs that require people skills and a lot of interpersonal interactions, but whose personal preference is generally to be more reserved and introverted, even if they form some close friendships (and Fritz certainly did and was very sociable in small groups).
The problem with Fredersdorf is the quality of the evidence: we've got people who complain that he's difficult to access (but they want something from him), sympathetic accounts that seem to describe the same thing as well (but there are class divides and language barriers), and a general lack of the sheer amount of detail that we have for Fritz, especially outside a work context.
Choosing to see Lehndorff shortly before his death is probably the strongest counterexample in my opinion. Though I would note that Fritz also accepted random visitors when he was in the mood, and got to know Lucchesini in his old age, and was certainly sociable on his own terms! This is why I said "somewhat" for both of them, not "extremely": I have people I socialize with, but accepting random visitors is a no for me.
But ultimately, what I was getting at was that I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, the way Childermass's does with Norrell. Where Childermass is also pretty introverted, but he does all the riding around talking to people and acquiring books, while Norrell stays locked in a library working spells, and that pushes my buttons. I feel like Fritz and Fredersdorf interact with different people, like Fredersdorf handling the hiring and firing of musicians, and Fritz interacting more with the officers, but to me that feels more like delegation than a really deep difference. The differences in their personalities are indisputably there, but they don't align in a way that pushes my buttons. Alas! But at least now I know *why*.
TL;DR: Regardless of what Fredersdorf's actual personality was like behind the screen of historical evidence, the thing that's missing for me in terms of shipping Fritz/Fredersdorf is a sense that their dynamic is obviously driven by one party's much greater willingness to interact with people or ability to interact with them on a different level. Denethor and Boromir, for an example of a non-romantic close working relationship, gives me that same sense of really striking, really obvious complementary skills, personalities, and interactions with people (which I have of course fleshed out with additional headcanon ;)).
Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-08 06:28 am (UTC)but they didn't have the internet back thenI know, I know, I just couldn't resist :PFredersdorf being really good with people (and liking people!) had always been my headcanon -- I even remember saying something to you during writing "Counterpoint" as to how it was hard for the two of us to write him! :) I suppose I'm not qualified to have an opinion as if salon has shown us anything it has shown us that I am terrible about believing things taken out of context, but I kind of think that even though one piece of evidence isn't perhaps strong (and as you say the marriage is the least strong piece), as a group they do tend to indicate someone who was at least reasonably social.
Though I don't disagree with you when you say I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, though my perception is that this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?) So I can see why you wouldn't ship them even if Fredersdorf was the most charming and social person in the world :P
Now I, on the other hand, have a really strong loyalty kink, and I suspect it doesn't really matter to me what the personality dynamic is nearly so much as it does that there's a power differential and a strong loyalty element, lol.
Huhhhhh do you mean Denethor and Boromir or Faramir and Boromir? I hadn't thought Denethor and Boromir had particularly obviously complementary skills, though I would say Faramir and Boromir did! Buuuuut this may also have a lot to do with my headcanon for them all, as well as that it's been a while since I've read the books last!
Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-08 11:22 pm (UTC)Certainly Fredersdorf doesn't go full-on asshole with people the same way as Fritz does, and he quite likely understands what makes people tick better than our Fritz (which is a headcanon I agree with). But what I don't see is Fritz going, "God, I hate dealing with people; you deal with people." What I see is Fritz going, "I've only got 24 hours in the day, and unfortunately I need to sleep 4 of them, so I'll deal with these people and you deal with those people."
Which means, yes, I agree completely with:
this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?)
So even if Fredersdorf was a total social butterfly on his own time, I don't see it driving how he works with Fritz. And apparently that kind of complementarity is a huge part of my narrative kink for relationships (not necessarily romantic or sexual) between "person in charge" and "the person that person relies on most for the parts they're not good at or don't like doing."
This is apparently a hugely consistent button-pusher for me, from Norrell and Childermass to Diocletian and Maximian (whom I requested for Yuletide for exactly this reason), from Denethor and Boromir to Burns and Smithers (lol, my crackship), and it occurs to me that that's exactly how I wrote Mags and Finnick, who are essentially both OCs in my AU.
And yes, I extremely meant Denethor and Boromir! Behold canon:
Denethor II was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore...Denethor ...would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. None of the Stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur...Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles.
So canonically Denethor sits alone in his tower, gathering information and reading minds and politicking and staring into the palantir and doing high-level strategy, and presumably doing paperwork or the equivalent thereof, and Boromir goes out in the field and wages war in person, and goes on a quest to Imladris, and so on. And my headcanon has Boromir more approachable and better able to bond with his men over a beer, in a way that actually gets things done that Denethor needs done but can't do himself. While the last thing Boromir wants is to sit alone in a tower thinking. :P
The part where neither of them wants to do the part the other is doing and their skill sets align in a perfectly complementary way, and there's deep trust and respect between them, is my absolute favorite.
This is kind of like us and our magical alchemy, now that I think of it. :D Our skill sets and interests align, and we build on each other's contributions, such that the whole of what we achieve is greater than the sum of its parts.
And this is why my strongest emotional responses to physical gestures of loyalty are from Maximian to Diocletian and Finnick to Mags (as I showed you), and not from Fredersdorf to Fritz. Combine complementary skills resulting in magical alchemy with deep 100% trust and commitment, and preferably add in a hurt/comfort element, and that's where a physical gesture of loyalty will sock me right in the feels.
I would say Faramir and Boromir did!
This is because Faramir and Denethor overlap a lot in their skills! Different personalities, but similar skill sets. I ship Faramir and Boromir hard as (non-incestuous) brothers, but since they never end up in that dynamic where Boromir is Faramir's trusted second-in-command, they push very different buttons for me than Denethor and Boromir. (Though the complementarity definitely helps.)
It occurs to me that even though my feelings for Boromir and Faramir are much stronger than my feelings for Denethor and Boromir (or, say, Diocletian and Maximian), and even though they complement each other well, and even though their mutual trust and commitment and loyalty is absolute, physical gestures of loyalty from one to the other don't work for me, because they don't have that incredibly specific dynamic of "first in command"/"second in command", where the first in command is more intellectual or stay-at-home, and/or the second in command has more physical or military prowess, or at least goes out and interacts with the world more, being the arms and legs and eyes and ears of the person they're reporting to.
Okay, I'm realizing just how *extremely* specific this narrative kink is. :P It does explain why these exact conditions haven't been met in this fandom yet! And Amalie to Heinrich has basically no overlap in this Venn diagram, so you can see why you had to ask me to insert that gesture of loyalty.
Ha. I'm actually surprised these conditions get met as often as they do, honestly. I can tell you they feature heavily in my unwritten OC stories in my head. :)