Also, as I have no idea who he's talking about, I strongly suspect that, due to lack of access, he is both wrong about "Sedoo"'s importance and about the way his name is spelled.
My guess would be a member of the von Sydow family. Like you, I have no idea which one, but Wikipedia tells me that this guy was commandant of Küstrin before Lepel, and that he died in Küstrin in 1733, so he was no doubt living there in 1731. Given that the Münchow kids got gainful employment as pages and such because Mom and Dad were so nice to Fritz, it's possible a Sydow relative did too? Unfortunately, this guy's only surviving son is a too old to be a Fritzian page, but maybe there was a nephew or grandson or something. Or it could be totally unrelated!
Possibly of interest only to me, I find that their ancestral seat is a part (Ortsteil) of what is today the Wust-Fischbeck municipality. Their Ortsteil is named Sydow, as are the major streets and the church. This is about 4 km from our Katte crypt.
Finally, also fun, he found a Prussian Lord Hervey (and it wasn't Lehndorff):
Ha!
Wikipedia:
During the Seven Years' War, Frederick issued a secret decree on 10 January 1757, "in the case of his death or capture", which appointed Finckenstein as Regent of Prussia in that event.
!!
Well, that's relevant to two of our fics. No citation given.
Wait, why would we need a regent in 1757? AW is still around and in good health. I severely question this.
Okay, the political correspondence has a set of secret instructions to Finck on that date, indicating the steps to be taken if really bad things happen: an invasion, Fritz's death, Fritz's capture. They include detailed instructions on different invasion scenarios and where to move the royal family and treasury to. They include the phrase "il faut qu'on obéisse à mon frère" in the event of Fritz's capture, which I assume refers to AW. I see nothing about making Finck regent.
Also, selenak, this document answers our question about whether Fritz gave the same orders in the Seven Years' War that he did just before Mollwitz, namely that if he's captured, everyone is to ignore anything he might say and make no attempt to save him. He did.
If I had the fate of being taken prisoner by the enemy, I forbid anyone to have the slightest regard for me, nor to make the slightest reflection on what I might write about my detention. If such a misfortune should happen to me, I want to sacrifice myself for the State, and we must obey my brother, who, as well as all my ministers and generals, will answer me with their head that neither province nor ransom will be offered for me, and that the war will continue, pushing its advantages as if I had never existed in the world.
"No province will be offered" thus supports my fic idea that they might actually consider trading one for him! I wasn't crazy. :DDD I was also dead right that Fritz would probably put up some resistance to the idea. Though obviously he's giving these instructions in advance because he's not sure what he will say when he's actually in prison (given, as you pointed out, Selena, what he did say the last time he was in prison). So there's a lot of flexibility for a fic author as to how cooperative or uncooperative Fritz would be during a rescue attempt.
Yeah, the Regent bit is totally wrong IMO. He put him in charge of executing these particular instructions, see Preuss' footnotes in the Oevres version of the document, which include two appendices that say exactly that: Ordre an das gesammte Etats-Ministerium zu Berlin: Allem demjenigen exacte Folge zu leisten, was, auf gewisse Fälle, ihnen der Etats- und Cabinets-Minister Graf von Finckenstein, im Namen Sr. Königlichen Majestät, nach der ihm ertheilten schriftlichen secreten Instruction sagen und aufgeben wird. (I actually found a Lehndorff entry in October 1757 which says that Finckenstein showed these instructions to EC when everyone was debating whether to leave Berlin, so he seems to have used them as intended, i.e. possibly put his foot down when it came to leaving the city and following Fritz' orders.)
ETA: The question is: What happens if Fritz does get captured (or killed) and AW (or later Heinrich) wants to go against these instructions. Does Finckenstein have the authority to overrule AW on Fritz' orders and would people respect that?
What happens if Fritz does get captured (or killed) and AW (or later Heinrich) wants to go against these instructions. Does Finckenstein have the authority to overrule AW on Fritz' orders and would people respect that?
Which instructions are we talking? Where to take the royal family in the event of an invasion? Trading for Fritz in the event of his capture? Ending the war in the event of his death? Those are three very different things.
If Fritz is dead, I would say AW has the right to do whatever he wants, in just the same way FW2 got to ignore Fritz's will and bury him with FW in a church in a big ceremony. Kings get to reverse their predecessors' decisions.
If Fritz and AW are dead and Heinrich's regent...I'm not sure. I'm going to guess that the same holds (Heinrich does what Heinrich wants, and gets FW2 to sign off on it if necessary).
If Fritz is captured and AW wants to sacrifice a province for him, then everyone has to deal with the consequences of Fritz coming back, taking command, and going, "I said not to do that!" Cue AW getting sent home in disgrace.
Heinrich's a survivor and as regent would probably figure something out, but the big deterrent with disobeying Fritz's orders isn't "Can Finck stop you?" but "What is Fritz going to do to you when he gets back?"
But if, for the sake of argument, Heinrich and/or AW were super determined to get Fritz back no matter what the risk to their personal necks and/or careers? Could Finck stop them? I don't know. I assume he would get it in writing that he had tried very hard, and make sure Fritz saw that writing later. I don't know if he could actually stop negotiations with Austria if both parties were determined to carry out a deal in the face of the instructions and the risks.
I think our fic outline is more plausible, that Heinrich tries for a prisoner trade, just like capturing Seckendorff to trade for Prince Moritz (?). And then Voltaire goes on a crusade. :D
I suspect Heinrich would get an earful, but I don't think he'd get the full AW treatment, if Prussia traded or tried trading Fritz for Joseph. Or at least I think that's plausible enough for fic.
Also, if you look at the Mollwitz letter, it reads, "that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom." I think Heinrich could make a case that trading the King for an archduke and future emperor is worthy enough.
Voltaire, now, is a whole different kettle of fish...someone needs to write this
Heinrich's a survivor and as regent would probably figure something out, but the big deterrent with disobeying Fritz's orders isn't "Can Finck stop you?" but "What is Fritz going to do to you when he gets back?"
No kidding. Hence me letting Mitchell point out to Heinrich that he needs to make some effort at rescueing Fritz, otherwise his reputation and start as Regent will be screwed, when Heinrich on his own might just think obeying Fritzian orders in this particular case (of not making any trade if he‘s captured) would not be a problem. :) But yes, a prisoner exchange rather than trading a province, plus earlier kidnapping, and the tried and true Seckendorff tradition.
And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
What if...what if Heinrich made a public effort to retrieve Fritz, but deliberately set it up to fail, so he gets credit for trying, but can tell himself he's obeying Fritz's orders (and tell Fritz that in case Fritz ever does make it out), and he doesn't have to deal with Fritz's return! And then Voltaire throws a wrench in the works.
And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
Oh, I get you. Odds of me ever doing my Voltaire crusade are minimal. (Both fix-it and corporate AU are more likely. Oh, and late-night roleplay is on the list now.) But you're better at writing than I am, so I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you!
I mean, if you wanted to *plot out* the Voltaire crusade outline without actually writing it, I would totally be up for that :D
(but, like, corporate AU and late-night roleplay are both things I am super excited about! I mean, I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) ) (Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting, though the problem is by the end of it I'd probably really want the fic :P )
but, like, corporate AU and late-night roleplay are both things I am super excited about!
Noted for future reference!
I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) )
Oh, fix-it fic is totally for me. ;) I don't expect anyone else to be super excited about Fritz's happy ending with my 3 favorite boyfriends (and my low-key Katte/Peter ship).
Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting
Oh, definitely, at some point (not now), I'm going to want to talk through the planning. I'm certainly not writing it without having talked through it! And the most likely scenario is that we talk through it and leave it at that, because my muses aren't *that* cooperative. ;)
But not now! Must read Stollberg-Rilinger, then read Orieux, fix sleep, catch up on work that I slacked on during November and December *cough Yuletide*, and hopefully a couple things I owe friends!
this week work kind of blew up on me (not in a bad way, just very busy and may keep being busy for a while), I will try to respond to other salon posts soon (all sorts of cool stuff going on!) but I just wanted to pop in to say here that as far as I can tell I will be asking for the Regent!Heinrich and crusade!Voltaire scenario for Yuletide until the end of time (or until I get it, lol) so you certainly won't run out of opportunities!
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-04 09:36 pm (UTC)Also, as I have no idea who he's talking about, I strongly suspect that, due to lack of access, he is both wrong about "Sedoo"'s importance and about the way his name is spelled.
My guess would be a member of the von Sydow family. Like you, I have no idea which one, but Wikipedia tells me that this guy was commandant of Küstrin before Lepel, and that he died in Küstrin in 1733, so he was no doubt living there in 1731. Given that the Münchow kids got gainful employment as pages and such because Mom and Dad were so nice to Fritz, it's possible a Sydow relative did too? Unfortunately, this guy's only surviving son is a too old to be a Fritzian page, but maybe there was a nephew or grandson or something. Or it could be totally unrelated!
Possibly of interest only to me, I find that their ancestral seat is a part (Ortsteil) of what is today the Wust-Fischbeck municipality. Their Ortsteil is named Sydow, as are the major streets and the church. This is about 4 km from our Katte crypt.
Finally, also fun, he found a Prussian Lord Hervey (and it wasn't Lehndorff):
Ha!
Wikipedia:
During the Seven Years' War, Frederick issued a secret decree on 10 January 1757, "in the case of his death or capture", which appointed Finckenstein as Regent of Prussia in that event.
!!
Well, that's relevant to two of our fics. No citation given.
Wait, why would we need a regent in 1757? AW is still around and in good health. I severely question this.
Okay, the political correspondence has a set of secret instructions to Finck on that date, indicating the steps to be taken if really bad things happen: an invasion, Fritz's death, Fritz's capture. They include detailed instructions on different invasion scenarios and where to move the royal family and treasury to. They include the phrase "il faut qu'on obéisse à mon frère" in the event of Fritz's capture, which I assume refers to AW. I see nothing about making Finck regent.
Also,
If I had the fate of being taken prisoner by the enemy, I forbid anyone to have the slightest regard for me, nor to make the slightest reflection on what I might write about my detention. If such a misfortune should happen to me, I want to sacrifice myself for the State, and we must obey my brother, who, as well as all my ministers and generals, will answer me with their head that neither province nor ransom will be offered for me, and that the war will continue, pushing its advantages as if I had never existed in the world.
"No province will be offered" thus supports my fic idea that they might actually consider trading one for him! I wasn't crazy. :DDD I was also dead right that Fritz would probably put up some resistance to the idea. Though obviously he's giving these instructions in advance because he's not sure what he will say when he's actually in prison (given, as you pointed out, Selena, what he did say the last time he was in prison). So there's a lot of flexibility for a fic author as to how cooperative or uncooperative Fritz would be during a rescue attempt.
Re: Tidbits from Hanbury Williams
Date: 2021-02-04 10:45 pm (UTC)ETA: The question is: What happens if Fritz does get captured (or killed) and AW (or later Heinrich) wants to go against these instructions. Does Finckenstein have the authority to overrule AW on Fritz' orders and would people respect that?
Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-04 11:33 pm (UTC)Which instructions are we talking? Where to take the royal family in the event of an invasion? Trading for Fritz in the event of his capture? Ending the war in the event of his death? Those are three very different things.
If Fritz is dead, I would say AW has the right to do whatever he wants, in just the same way FW2 got to ignore Fritz's will and bury him with FW in a church in a big ceremony. Kings get to reverse their predecessors' decisions.
If Fritz and AW are dead and Heinrich's regent...I'm not sure. I'm going to guess that the same holds (Heinrich does what Heinrich wants, and gets FW2 to sign off on it if necessary).
If Fritz is captured and AW wants to sacrifice a province for him, then everyone has to deal with the consequences of Fritz coming back, taking command, and going, "I said not to do that!" Cue AW getting sent home in disgrace.
Heinrich's a survivor and as regent would probably figure something out, but the big deterrent with disobeying Fritz's orders isn't "Can Finck stop you?" but "What is Fritz going to do to you when he gets back?"
But if, for the sake of argument, Heinrich and/or AW were super determined to get Fritz back no matter what the risk to their personal necks and/or careers? Could Finck stop them? I don't know. I assume he would get it in writing that he had tried very hard, and make sure Fritz saw that writing later. I don't know if he could actually stop negotiations with Austria if both parties were determined to carry out a deal in the face of the instructions and the risks.
I think our fic outline is more plausible, that Heinrich tries for a prisoner trade, just like capturing Seckendorff to trade for Prince Moritz (?). And then Voltaire goes on a crusade. :D
I suspect Heinrich would get an earful, but I don't think he'd get the full AW treatment, if Prussia traded or tried trading Fritz for Joseph. Or at least I think that's plausible enough for fic.
Also, if you look at the Mollwitz letter, it reads, "that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom." I think Heinrich could make a case that trading the King for an archduke and future emperor is worthy enough.
Voltaire, now, is a whole different kettle of fish...
someone needs to write thisRe: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 07:55 am (UTC)No kidding. Hence me letting Mitchell point out to Heinrich that he needs to make some effort at rescueing Fritz, otherwise his reputation and start as Regent will be screwed, when Heinrich on his own might just think obeying Fritzian orders in this particular case (of not making any trade if he‘s captured) would not be a problem. :) But yes, a prisoner exchange rather than trading a province, plus earlier kidnapping, and the tried and true Seckendorff tradition.
And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 02:14 pm (UTC)And I haven‘t given up on that scenario! It‘s just the most time consuming of all scenarios to plot, with the largest ensemble of characters!
Oh, I get you. Odds of me ever doing my Voltaire crusade are minimal. (Both fix-it and corporate AU are more likely. Oh, and late-night roleplay is on the list now.) But you're better at writing than I am, so I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 04:35 pm (UTC)(but, like, corporate AU and late-night roleplay are both things I am super excited about! I mean, I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) ) (Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting, though the problem is by the end of it I'd probably really want the fic :P )
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 06:14 pm (UTC)Noted for future reference!
I'm excited about fix-it and Voltaire crusade too, but not quite in the "oooooh WOULD READ" way that I felt when you guys were talking about the other two :) )
Oh, fix-it fic is totally for me. ;) I don't expect anyone else to be super excited about Fritz's happy ending with my 3 favorite boyfriends (and my low-key Katte/Peter ship).
Though actually the Voltaire crusade one is one that I think might actually be the most fun to talk through the plotting
Oh, definitely, at some point (not now), I'm going to want to talk through the planning. I'm certainly not writing it without having talked through it! And the most likely scenario is that we talk through it and leave it at that, because my muses aren't *that* cooperative. ;)
But not now! Must read Stollberg-Rilinger, then read Orieux, fix sleep, catch up on work that I slacked on during November and December *cough Yuletide*, and hopefully a couple things I owe friends!
Re: Fritz capture scenarios
Date: 2021-02-05 04:27 pm (UTC)