Perhaps "antisocial" was the wrong way to phrase it (though I note the qualifier!), but most of those examples don't strike me as strong counterevidence. Especially the marriage: I'm extremely antisocial, not just somewhat, and aromantic and asexual to boot, and still managed to end up married and nice to my wife! I maintain that Fritz was "married" to Fredersdorf and might well have ended up married to Katte if things had been different (see also my modern AU). :P
Fredersdorf was certainly less of an asshole than Fritz (I note the complaints about despotism but take them with a grain of salt; disappointed people who want something from him are going to resent him, whether fairly or unfairly, so we just don't know), but as for how sociable he was...I know a lot of antisocial people who are polite and well-liked when they interact with people, and who even seek out jobs that require people skills and a lot of interpersonal interactions, but whose personal preference is generally to be more reserved and introverted, even if they form some close friendships (and Fritz certainly did and was very sociable in small groups).
The problem with Fredersdorf is the quality of the evidence: we've got people who complain that he's difficult to access (but they want something from him), sympathetic accounts that seem to describe the same thing as well (but there are class divides and language barriers), and a general lack of the sheer amount of detail that we have for Fritz, especially outside a work context.
Choosing to see Lehndorff shortly before his death is probably the strongest counterexample in my opinion. Though I would note that Fritz also accepted random visitors when he was in the mood, and got to know Lucchesini in his old age, and was certainly sociable on his own terms! This is why I said "somewhat" for both of them, not "extremely": I have people I socialize with, but accepting random visitors is a no for me.
But ultimately, what I was getting at was that I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, the way Childermass's does with Norrell. Where Childermass is also pretty introverted, but he does all the riding around talking to people and acquiring books, while Norrell stays locked in a library working spells, and that pushes my buttons. I feel like Fritz and Fredersdorf interact with different people, like Fredersdorf handling the hiring and firing of musicians, and Fritz interacting more with the officers, but to me that feels more like delegation than a really deep difference. The differences in their personalities are indisputably there, but they don't align in a way that pushes my buttons. Alas! But at least now I know *why*.
TL;DR: Regardless of what Fredersdorf's actual personality was like behind the screen of historical evidence, the thing that's missing for me in terms of shipping Fritz/Fredersdorf is a sense that their dynamic is obviously driven by one party's much greater willingness to interact with people or ability to interact with them on a different level. Denethor and Boromir, for an example of a non-romantic close working relationship, gives me that same sense of really striking, really obvious complementary skills, personalities, and interactions with people (which I have of course fleshed out with additional headcanon ;)).
but they didn't have the internet back then I know, I know, I just couldn't resist :P
Fredersdorf being really good with people (and liking people!) had always been my headcanon -- I even remember saying something to you during writing "Counterpoint" as to how it was hard for the two of us to write him! :) I suppose I'm not qualified to have an opinion as if salon has shown us anything it has shown us that I am terrible about believing things taken out of context, but I kind of think that even though one piece of evidence isn't perhaps strong (and as you say the marriage is the least strong piece), as a group they do tend to indicate someone who was at least reasonably social.
Though I don't disagree with you when you say I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, though my perception is that this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?) So I can see why you wouldn't ship them even if Fredersdorf was the most charming and social person in the world :P
Now I, on the other hand, have a really strong loyalty kink, and I suspect it doesn't really matter to me what the personality dynamic is nearly so much as it does that there's a power differential and a strong loyalty element, lol.
Huhhhhh do you mean Denethor and Boromir or Faramir and Boromir? I hadn't thought Denethor and Boromir had particularly obviously complementary skills, though I would say Faramir and Boromir did! Buuuuut this may also have a lot to do with my headcanon for them all, as well as that it's been a while since I've read the books last!
These are fair points! I mean, Fritz is intensely social with select people, and outside of that most of his interactions are work-related, and he's comfortable with significant alone time though he prefers his small select groups, and I headcanon Fredersdorf as not being tremendously different in those respects, but you've both convinced me that other interpretations are possible!
Certainly Fredersdorf doesn't go full-on asshole with people the same way as Fritz does, and he quite likely understands what makes people tick better than our Fritz (which is a headcanon I agree with). But what I don't see is Fritz going, "God, I hate dealing with people; you deal with people." What I see is Fritz going, "I've only got 24 hours in the day, and unfortunately I need to sleep 4 of them, so I'll deal with these people and you deal with those people."
Which means, yes, I agree completely with:
this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?)
So even if Fredersdorf was a total social butterfly on his own time, I don't see it driving how he works with Fritz. And apparently that kind of complementarity is a huge part of my narrative kink for relationships (not necessarily romantic or sexual) between "person in charge" and "the person that person relies on most for the parts they're not good at or don't like doing."
This is apparently a hugely consistent button-pusher for me, from Norrell and Childermass to Diocletian and Maximian (whom I requested for Yuletide for exactly this reason), from Denethor and Boromir to Burns and Smithers (lol, my crackship), and it occurs to me that that's exactly how I wrote Mags and Finnick, who are essentially both OCs in my AU.
And yes, I extremely meant Denethor and Boromir! Behold canon:
Denethor II was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore...Denethor ...would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. None of the Stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur...Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles.
So canonically Denethor sits alone in his tower, gathering information and reading minds and politicking and staring into the palantir and doing high-level strategy, and presumably doing paperwork or the equivalent thereof, and Boromir goes out in the field and wages war in person, and goes on a quest to Imladris, and so on. And my headcanon has Boromir more approachable and better able to bond with his men over a beer, in a way that actually gets things done that Denethor needs done but can't do himself. While the last thing Boromir wants is to sit alone in a tower thinking. :P
The part where neither of them wants to do the part the other is doing and their skill sets align in a perfectly complementary way, and there's deep trust and respect between them, is my absolute favorite.
This is kind of like us and our magical alchemy, now that I think of it. :D Our skill sets and interests align, and we build on each other's contributions, such that the whole of what we achieve is greater than the sum of its parts.
And this is why my strongest emotional responses to physical gestures of loyalty are from Maximian to Diocletian and Finnick to Mags (as I showed you), and not from Fredersdorf to Fritz. Combine complementary skills resulting in magical alchemy with deep 100% trust and commitment, and preferably add in a hurt/comfort element, and that's where a physical gesture of loyalty will sock me right in the feels.
I would say Faramir and Boromir did!
This is because Faramir and Denethor overlap a lot in their skills! Different personalities, but similar skill sets. I ship Faramir and Boromir hard as (non-incestuous) brothers, but since they never end up in that dynamic where Boromir is Faramir's trusted second-in-command, they push very different buttons for me than Denethor and Boromir. (Though the complementarity definitely helps.)
It occurs to me that even though my feelings for Boromir and Faramir are much stronger than my feelings for Denethor and Boromir (or, say, Diocletian and Maximian), and even though they complement each other well, and even though their mutual trust and commitment and loyalty is absolute, physical gestures of loyalty from one to the other don't work for me, because they don't have that incredibly specific dynamic of "first in command"/"second in command", where the first in command is more intellectual or stay-at-home, and/or the second in command has more physical or military prowess, or at least goes out and interacts with the world more, being the arms and legs and eyes and ears of the person they're reporting to.
Okay, I'm realizing just how *extremely* specific this narrative kink is. :P It does explain why these exact conditions haven't been met in this fandom yet! And Amalie to Heinrich has basically no overlap in this Venn diagram, so you can see why you had to ask me to insert that gesture of loyalty.
Ha. I'm actually surprised these conditions get met as often as they do, honestly. I can tell you they feature heavily in my unwritten OC stories in my head. :)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-07 03:29 pm (UTC)Fredersdorf was certainly less of an asshole than Fritz (I note the complaints about despotism but take them with a grain of salt; disappointed people who want something from him are going to resent him, whether fairly or unfairly, so we just don't know), but as for how sociable he was...I know a lot of antisocial people who are polite and well-liked when they interact with people, and who even seek out jobs that require people skills and a lot of interpersonal interactions, but whose personal preference is generally to be more reserved and introverted, even if they form some close friendships (and Fritz certainly did and was very sociable in small groups).
The problem with Fredersdorf is the quality of the evidence: we've got people who complain that he's difficult to access (but they want something from him), sympathetic accounts that seem to describe the same thing as well (but there are class divides and language barriers), and a general lack of the sheer amount of detail that we have for Fritz, especially outside a work context.
Choosing to see Lehndorff shortly before his death is probably the strongest counterexample in my opinion. Though I would note that Fritz also accepted random visitors when he was in the mood, and got to know Lucchesini in his old age, and was certainly sociable on his own terms! This is why I said "somewhat" for both of them, not "extremely": I have people I socialize with, but accepting random visitors is a no for me.
But ultimately, what I was getting at was that I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, the way Childermass's does with Norrell. Where Childermass is also pretty introverted, but he does all the riding around talking to people and acquiring books, while Norrell stays locked in a library working spells, and that pushes my buttons. I feel like Fritz and Fredersdorf interact with different people, like Fredersdorf handling the hiring and firing of musicians, and Fritz interacting more with the officers, but to me that feels more like delegation than a really deep difference. The differences in their personalities are indisputably there, but they don't align in a way that pushes my buttons. Alas! But at least now I know *why*.
TL;DR: Regardless of what Fredersdorf's actual personality was like behind the screen of historical evidence, the thing that's missing for me in terms of shipping Fritz/Fredersdorf is a sense that their dynamic is obviously driven by one party's much greater willingness to interact with people or ability to interact with them on a different level. Denethor and Boromir, for an example of a non-romantic close working relationship, gives me that same sense of really striking, really obvious complementary skills, personalities, and interactions with people (which I have of course fleshed out with additional headcanon ;)).
Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-08 06:28 am (UTC)but they didn't have the internet back thenI know, I know, I just couldn't resist :PFredersdorf being really good with people (and liking people!) had always been my headcanon -- I even remember saying something to you during writing "Counterpoint" as to how it was hard for the two of us to write him! :) I suppose I'm not qualified to have an opinion as if salon has shown us anything it has shown us that I am terrible about believing things taken out of context, but I kind of think that even though one piece of evidence isn't perhaps strong (and as you say the marriage is the least strong piece), as a group they do tend to indicate someone who was at least reasonably social.
Though I don't disagree with you when you say I don't see Fredersdorf's willingness to interact with people as so much greater than Fritz's that it *complements* and *compensates for* Fritz's isolation, though my perception is that this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?) So I can see why you wouldn't ship them even if Fredersdorf was the most charming and social person in the world :P
Now I, on the other hand, have a really strong loyalty kink, and I suspect it doesn't really matter to me what the personality dynamic is nearly so much as it does that there's a power differential and a strong loyalty element, lol.
Huhhhhh do you mean Denethor and Boromir or Faramir and Boromir? I hadn't thought Denethor and Boromir had particularly obviously complementary skills, though I would say Faramir and Boromir did! Buuuuut this may also have a lot to do with my headcanon for them all, as well as that it's been a while since I've read the books last!
Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf
Date: 2021-02-08 11:22 pm (UTC)Certainly Fredersdorf doesn't go full-on asshole with people the same way as Fritz does, and he quite likely understands what makes people tick better than our Fritz (which is a headcanon I agree with). But what I don't see is Fritz going, "God, I hate dealing with people; you deal with people." What I see is Fritz going, "I've only got 24 hours in the day, and unfortunately I need to sleep 4 of them, so I'll deal with these people and you deal with those people."
Which means, yes, I agree completely with:
this is actually because of Fritz -- Fritz is also very able to be charming and interact with people when he wants to, and is super competent, so it's sort of a matter of degree rather than kind -- if he wanted to he could probably have done anything Fredersdorf did (although he was king, so why should he?)
So even if Fredersdorf was a total social butterfly on his own time, I don't see it driving how he works with Fritz. And apparently that kind of complementarity is a huge part of my narrative kink for relationships (not necessarily romantic or sexual) between "person in charge" and "the person that person relies on most for the parts they're not good at or don't like doing."
This is apparently a hugely consistent button-pusher for me, from Norrell and Childermass to Diocletian and Maximian (whom I requested for Yuletide for exactly this reason), from Denethor and Boromir to Burns and Smithers (lol, my crackship), and it occurs to me that that's exactly how I wrote Mags and Finnick, who are essentially both OCs in my AU.
And yes, I extremely meant Denethor and Boromir! Behold canon:
Denethor II was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore...Denethor ...would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. None of the Stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur...Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles.
So canonically Denethor sits alone in his tower, gathering information and reading minds and politicking and staring into the palantir and doing high-level strategy, and presumably doing paperwork or the equivalent thereof, and Boromir goes out in the field and wages war in person, and goes on a quest to Imladris, and so on. And my headcanon has Boromir more approachable and better able to bond with his men over a beer, in a way that actually gets things done that Denethor needs done but can't do himself. While the last thing Boromir wants is to sit alone in a tower thinking. :P
The part where neither of them wants to do the part the other is doing and their skill sets align in a perfectly complementary way, and there's deep trust and respect between them, is my absolute favorite.
This is kind of like us and our magical alchemy, now that I think of it. :D Our skill sets and interests align, and we build on each other's contributions, such that the whole of what we achieve is greater than the sum of its parts.
And this is why my strongest emotional responses to physical gestures of loyalty are from Maximian to Diocletian and Finnick to Mags (as I showed you), and not from Fredersdorf to Fritz. Combine complementary skills resulting in magical alchemy with deep 100% trust and commitment, and preferably add in a hurt/comfort element, and that's where a physical gesture of loyalty will sock me right in the feels.
I would say Faramir and Boromir did!
This is because Faramir and Denethor overlap a lot in their skills! Different personalities, but similar skill sets. I ship Faramir and Boromir hard as (non-incestuous) brothers, but since they never end up in that dynamic where Boromir is Faramir's trusted second-in-command, they push very different buttons for me than Denethor and Boromir. (Though the complementarity definitely helps.)
It occurs to me that even though my feelings for Boromir and Faramir are much stronger than my feelings for Denethor and Boromir (or, say, Diocletian and Maximian), and even though they complement each other well, and even though their mutual trust and commitment and loyalty is absolute, physical gestures of loyalty from one to the other don't work for me, because they don't have that incredibly specific dynamic of "first in command"/"second in command", where the first in command is more intellectual or stay-at-home, and/or the second in command has more physical or military prowess, or at least goes out and interacts with the world more, being the arms and legs and eyes and ears of the person they're reporting to.
Okay, I'm realizing just how *extremely* specific this narrative kink is. :P It does explain why these exact conditions haven't been met in this fandom yet! And Amalie to Heinrich has basically no overlap in this Venn diagram, so you can see why you had to ask me to insert that gesture of loyalty.
Ha. I'm actually surprised these conditions get met as often as they do, honestly. I can tell you they feature heavily in my unwritten OC stories in my head. :)