...this is putting all my grumbling about wishful-thinking modern-era memoirs where people just make stuff up wholesale (in particular, Madeleine L'Engle's memoirs) in context. I suppose L'Engle was just living in a less modern age :P
On the other hand, reading Orieux does make me a little sad that it seems to be no longer an accepted Thing to explicitly have strong opinions about one's subject in biographies. Instead we get implicit strong opinions, which are equally as biased -- and, as mildred would say, historical-fiction -- but not nearly as interestingly written as actual historical fiction would be :P
Now that Goethe is on my mind, I will go ahead and seize the opportunity to say that I've read the Christiane von Goethe monologue, which was delightful! She really comes across as a character, and she and Goethe also come across as having a really sweet relationship. I did end it feeling kind of bad for Charlotte von Stein (whom I assume Christiane is somewhat biased towards, and who could blame her).
Charlotte von Stein has her own dramatic monologue, written by Peter Hacks, one of our more famous post war German playwrights: Ein Gespräch im Hause Stein über den abwesenden Herrn von Goethe". This one is set pre-Christiane, just after Goethe after a decade plus of court life and government work and the platonic romance with Charlotte von Stein ran away to Italy for two years. She's addressing her husband (who was then still alive), but really it's all about Goethe, and quite compatible with Christiane's monologue while also offering a more in depth take on Charlotte von Stein. Who was horrible to Christiane later, but it was a no-win situation for her. She'd been very publically the adored muse of Germany's - and it was Germany's, not just Weimar's - most famous poet, and was credited with transforming him from Sturm-und-Drang wild boy to mature Goethe. And what poetry he did write through that decade of government-work had been for her, along with passionate love letters. He was seven years younger, but she was still a beautiful woman in her thirties, and he seemed to accept the platonism-only rule she set. And then he snaps and leaves without warning, and she's generally supposed to have been one of the causes. And then, two years later, he comes back from Italy tanned and having (re)discovered the joys of sex. They can't go back to what they were. And then he falls for this seventeen years younger woman who is in many ways the direct opposite of her, class wise, personality wise, looks wise, education wise, in everything, and starts to live with her. And never stops living with her.
(BTW, Goethe rather naively thought he could do that and still remain friends with Charlotte von Stein. This did not work out as intended.)
(Additional awkwardness: Goethe's friendship with Schiller also started post Italy. Schiller's wife, another Charlotte, was Charlotte von Stein's very much beloved goddaughter and a great champion of hers. This had the result that Schiller in all the years of their friendship never once added a "give my regards to..." or "thank my amiable hostess" when he'd been staying with Goethe re: Christiane, while Goethe never forgot to greet and ask about the health of Schiller's wife.)
Anyway, this had the result that Charlotte von Stein really really hated Christiane, and so did the rest of Weimar good society, with a very few exceptions. Even more so two decades later when Goethe married her and they had to acknowledge her. Biographers were at best condescending. It wasn't until the later 20th century that Christiane got massive sympathy, both because the general attitude towards sex, unmarried love and lower middle class/working class woman/ upper middle-class, then ennobled man relationships changed, and because her delightful correspondence with Goethe was published, and the monologue by Christine Brückner is very much informed by it. The poem Christiane mentions at the end is probably meant to be Gefunden, which Goethe wrote to her as a gift to their 25th anniversary (of meeting and falling in love, not of their wedding which after all only happened a near two decades later). You might know it in a musical version, as there are several (it's one of the more popular Goethe poems):
Gefunden in the version of Nate Festinger, featuring baritone Jonathan Estabrooks (this one has English subtitles, from which you can see why this was an anniversary gift looking back to their first meeting in metaphor)
ETA: you might have noticed an overabundance of Charlottes in Goethe's life. Really, it's like the name "Friedrich" and "Wilhelm" in Prussia. For verily, we have:
Charlotte Buff, later Charlotte Kestner (early love, inspiration for Lotte in "Werther") Charlotte von Stein Charlotte von Lengenfeld, later Charlotte (von) Schiller - Schiller's wife Charlotte von Kalb (mistress of Schiller before he fell for the Lengenfeld sisters and married one of them)
Daughter of ETA: for Valentine's day, have a translation of one of Christiane's letters to Goethe, ten years into the relationship:
Now, my best beloved sweetheart, I have to talk to you, otherwise nothing will work out. Firstly I must tell you I love you fiercely and today am very horny; secondly, that I postponed doing my laundry on Monday because of the bad weather, so it will only be washed to night, and I can see to my great relief the weather glass is rising. Thirdly I talked to Fischer. He wants to deliver the money as soon as Councillor Voigt shows up. Fourthly Mrs. Reverend von Rossel visited me and I fed her very well; she considers it a great grace and is happy that my Darling wants to lodge with her. Fifthly, all the weddings have been celebrated in splendor and magnificence; the entire theatre was decorated with real flowers, and it was extraordinarily beautiful. Today I visited a fair and bought some soap. Now I hope my Most Superb One will send me a Laubthaler wine since I've been such a virtuous sweetheart. For tonight goodbye, more tomorrow.
Ugh! Yeeeah, I feel like this is one of those things where okay, she behaved badly, but I just feel for her anyway :(
(BTW, Goethe rather naively thought he could do that and still remain friends with Charlotte von Stein. This did not work out as intended.)
What with this and the whole Charlotte Buff/Werther thing, I'm... getting the distinct impression that Goethe was a bit naive-in-a-self-centered-way sometimes :P
Those Gefundens are really neat. I think my favorite was the baritone one (and no, not just because baritone, although that probably helps) -- it's pretty cool to see someone do tonal art songs in the modern day :D Also I will go anywhere for the King Singers! And the ELena Kalacheva one was sweet too. I was glad to have the translation, that's rather sweet.
I was wondering whether Goethe just had a thing for people named Charlotte! But I guess it makes more sense that everyone was JUST NAMED Charlotte, like Friedrich and Heinrich :P :)
I'm... getting the distinct impression that Goethe was a bit naive-in-a-self-centered-way sometimes :P
To be sure. Mind you, he also was into polyamory per se, and life and works intermingled quite often. Just a few examples, this happened:
Younger Goethe: writes a drama "Stella" (subtitle: "A drama for lovers") where the love triangle (two women, one man) resolves itself by the three agreeing to live together in a happily ever after Readership: OMG YOU CAN'T! WHAT IMMORALITY IS THIS! Young Goethe: Fine. Have it your way. *writes a second ending to the drama where there's suicide* Happy now? 20th and 21st century theatre productions of "Stella": *pick the original ending*
Older Goethe: writes a novel "Wahlverwandtschaften" : married couple Eduard and Charlotte falls for alternate couple Ottilie and the Colonel. Misery ensues by Charlotte not being ready to follow her heart but insisting on obeying morality and the marriage vow, and eventualyl guilt tripping Ottilie into doing likewise, instead of everyone following their heart and living together. Tragic ending ensues, with ironic narrator evidently of the opinion this could have resolved far simpler, if only society wouldn't have brainwashed everyone*
Old Goethe, widower: *falls in love with 19 years old girl while taking the waters at Karlsbad, wants to marry her* Son August and daughter-in-law Ottilie: OMG terrible idea! 19 years old's mother, old friend of Goethe: This is awkward. Here I thought he was about to propose to me, a widow. 19 years old, Ulrike: Do not want. Otoh, actually do not want to be bearer of bad news and end up in literature, either. Everyone: what do do? Carl August: Never fear, Carl August is here. Being a true good friend, I'll give my old bud a reality check and braek the news gently to him. Hans, you can't. At your age! She's not into you that way. Goethe: I don't recall age stopping you with your current mistress, but fine. I can see you're right, she's not into me that way. Ah well! Off to write immortal poetry! Goethe: *writes the Marienbader Elegien which is about unrequited love, which for a change does stay unrequited, and about accepting your mortality* Ulrike: Phew. That's... actually now I don't mind having inspired that and will talk about my brief time with Goethe for the remainder of my 90 years plus unmarried life.
Younger Goethe: writes a drama "Stella" (subtitle: "A drama for lovers") where the love triangle (two women, one man) resolves itself by the three agreeing to live together in a happily ever after
Okay, that is pretty cool! Also, hee, and I fully support picking the original ending :D
Goethe: *writes the Marienbader Elegien which is about unrequited love, which for a change does stay unrequited, and about accepting your mortality*
...I was a bit worried about this story when I started reading it, but this is, well, rather endearing. If I were Ulrike I wouldn't have minded inspiring that either (although I also wouldn't have wanted to marry Old Goethe at 19!)
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timeasmymeasure
objectivity and Goethe
Date: 2021-02-11 05:00 pm (UTC)On the other hand, reading Orieux does make me a little sad that it seems to be no longer an accepted Thing to explicitly have strong opinions about one's subject in biographies. Instead we get implicit strong opinions, which are equally as biased -- and, as mildred would say, historical-fiction -- but not nearly as interestingly written as actual historical fiction would be :P
Now that Goethe is on my mind, I will go ahead and seize the opportunity to say that I've read the Christiane von Goethe monologue, which was delightful! She really comes across as a character, and she and Goethe also come across as having a really sweet relationship. I did end it feeling kind of bad for Charlotte von Stein (whom I assume Christiane is somewhat biased towards, and who could blame her).
Re: objectivity and Goethe
Date: 2021-02-11 05:44 pm (UTC)(BTW, Goethe rather naively thought he could do that and still remain friends with Charlotte von Stein. This did not work out as intended.)
(Additional awkwardness: Goethe's friendship with Schiller also started post Italy. Schiller's wife, another Charlotte, was Charlotte von Stein's very much beloved goddaughter and a great champion of hers. This had the result that Schiller in all the years of their friendship never once added a "give my regards to..." or "thank my amiable hostess" when he'd been staying with Goethe re: Christiane, while Goethe never forgot to greet and ask about the health of Schiller's wife.)
Anyway, this had the result that Charlotte von Stein really really hated Christiane, and so did the rest of Weimar good society, with a very few exceptions. Even more so two decades later when Goethe married her and they had to acknowledge her. Biographers were at best condescending. It wasn't until the later 20th century that Christiane got massive sympathy, both because the general attitude towards sex, unmarried love and lower middle class/working class woman/ upper middle-class, then ennobled man relationships changed, and because her delightful correspondence with Goethe was published, and the monologue by Christine Brückner is very much informed by it. The poem Christiane mentions at the end is probably meant to be Gefunden, which Goethe wrote to her as a gift to their 25th anniversary (of meeting and falling in love, not of their wedding which after all only happened a near two decades later). You might know it in a musical version, as there are several (it's one of the more popular Goethe poems):
Gefunden in the version of Elena Kalacheva
Gefunden in the version of Nate Festinger, featuring baritone Jonathan Estabrooks (this one has English subtitles, from which you can see why this was an anniversary gift looking back to their first meeting in metaphor)
Gefunden in the version of the King's Singers
ETA: you might have noticed an overabundance of Charlottes in Goethe's life. Really, it's like the name "Friedrich" and "Wilhelm" in Prussia. For verily, we have:
Charlotte Buff, later Charlotte Kestner (early love, inspiration for Lotte in "Werther")
Charlotte von Stein
Charlotte von Lengenfeld, later Charlotte (von) Schiller - Schiller's wife
Charlotte von Kalb (mistress of Schiller before he fell for the Lengenfeld sisters and married one of them)
Daughter of ETA: for Valentine's day, have a translation of one of Christiane's letters to Goethe, ten years into the relationship:
Now, my best beloved sweetheart, I have to talk to you, otherwise nothing will work out. Firstly I must tell you I love you fiercely and today am very horny; secondly, that I postponed doing my laundry on Monday because of the bad weather, so it will only be washed to night, and I can see to my great relief the weather glass is rising. Thirdly I talked to Fischer. He wants to deliver the money as soon as Councillor Voigt shows up. Fourthly Mrs. Reverend von Rossel visited me and I fed her very well; she considers it a great grace and is happy that my Darling wants to lodge with her. Fifthly, all the weddings have been celebrated in splendor and magnificence; the entire theatre was decorated with real flowers, and it was extraordinarily beautiful. Today I visited a fair and bought some soap. Now I hope my Most Superb One will send me a Laubthaler wine since I've been such a virtuous sweetheart. For tonight goodbye, more tomorrow.
Re: objectivity and Goethe
Date: 2021-02-15 06:36 am (UTC)(BTW, Goethe rather naively thought he could do that and still remain friends with Charlotte von Stein. This did not work out as intended.)
What with this and the whole Charlotte Buff/Werther thing, I'm... getting the distinct impression that Goethe was a bit naive-in-a-self-centered-way sometimes :P
Those Gefundens are really neat. I think my favorite was the baritone one (and no, not just because baritone, although that probably helps) -- it's pretty cool to see someone do tonal art songs in the modern day :D Also I will go anywhere for the King Singers! And the ELena Kalacheva one was sweet too. I was glad to have the translation, that's rather sweet.
I was wondering whether Goethe just had a thing for people named Charlotte! But I guess it makes more sense that everyone was JUST NAMED Charlotte, like Friedrich and Heinrich :P :)
Re: objectivity and Goethe
Date: 2021-02-16 06:53 am (UTC)To be sure. Mind you, he also was into polyamory per se, and life and works intermingled quite often. Just a few examples, this happened:
Younger Goethe: writes a drama "Stella" (subtitle: "A drama for lovers") where the love triangle (two women, one man) resolves itself by the three agreeing to live together in a happily ever after
Readership: OMG YOU CAN'T! WHAT IMMORALITY IS THIS!
Young Goethe: Fine. Have it your way. *writes a second ending to the drama where there's suicide* Happy now?
20th and 21st century theatre productions of "Stella": *pick the original ending*
Older Goethe: writes a novel "Wahlverwandtschaften" : married couple Eduard and Charlotte falls for alternate couple Ottilie and the Colonel. Misery ensues by Charlotte not being ready to follow her heart but insisting on obeying morality and the marriage vow, and eventualyl guilt tripping Ottilie into doing likewise, instead of everyone following their heart and living together. Tragic ending ensues, with ironic narrator evidently of the opinion this could have resolved far simpler, if only society wouldn't have brainwashed everyone*
Old Goethe, widower: *falls in love with 19 years old girl while taking the waters at Karlsbad, wants to marry her*
Son August and daughter-in-law Ottilie: OMG terrible idea!
19 years old's mother, old friend of Goethe: This is awkward. Here I thought he was about to propose to me, a widow.
19 years old, Ulrike: Do not want. Otoh, actually do not want to be bearer of bad news and end up in literature, either.
Everyone: what do do?
Carl August: Never fear, Carl August is here. Being a true good friend, I'll give my old bud a reality check and braek the news gently to him. Hans, you can't. At your age! She's not into you that way.
Goethe: I don't recall age stopping you with your current mistress, but fine. I can see you're right, she's not into me that way. Ah well! Off to write immortal poetry!
Goethe: *writes the Marienbader Elegien which is about unrequited love, which for a change does stay unrequited, and about accepting your mortality*
Ulrike: Phew. That's... actually now I don't mind having inspired that and will talk about my brief time with Goethe for the remainder of my 90 years plus unmarried life.
Re: objectivity and Goethe
Date: 2021-02-20 06:10 pm (UTC)Okay, that is pretty cool! Also, hee, and I fully support picking the original ending :D
Goethe: *writes the Marienbader Elegien which is about unrequited love, which for a change does stay unrequited, and about accepting your mortality*
...I was a bit worried about this story when I started reading it, but this is, well, rather endearing. If I were Ulrike I wouldn't have minded inspiring that either (although I also wouldn't have wanted to marry Old Goethe at 19!)