I realize you must have said this before (that Fritz most likely lied to Katte) and yet this must have been long enough ago that I didn't know enough to be shocked, and now I'm shocked :P :)
It came up when I found out myself, i.e. when I translated and summarized the Katte and Fritz 1730 interrogation protocols for the salon. Because while their stories mostly match, this is the big, big contradiction, with Katte saying Fritz told him Grumbkow and Seckendorff were trying to pressure him to marry an archduchess and convert, Fritz denying that he said this, and Katte, when he was asked again, insisting that it was true. Like I said, in theory, this could also be explained by Katte inventing the story on the spot in the hope that it would make arch Protestant FW look more kindly on his son's motives to flee (and Katte's own help). But given he says nothing else in all these interrogations that can be disproved (as I recall, he sometimes omits stuff which later comes up in the first few interrogations, but he doesn't say X happened only to be proven wrong later), and given that between the two of them, one had to learn to lie from early childhood onwards as a survival mechanism, and it wasn't Katte, I'm left with the conclusion that yes, Fritz point blank lied to Katte in 1730 as part of his effort to get him to agree to the escape plan.
/ETA: Also, it's telling that Fritz - who otherwise goes out of his way to protect Katte in the interrogations, confirming that the whole escape idea had been his idea, that Katte had tried to talk him out of it etc. - when asked about this contradiction can't come up with something less lame than "He must be misremembering", and doesn't even attempt to say "oh yeah, that totally happened!" himself, presumably because he knows there's no way FW is going to buy that. Not because FW is such a good judge of character, but because G & S know how hardcore Protestant he is, and to attempt a scheme that even smells of Catholic conversion for the next King of Prussia would be shooting themselves in the foot massively. (Note that Fritz suggests it to Grumbkow a few months later, he offers giving up on the succession in AW's favor if he gets to be Archduke and Emperor with MT, thus avoiding the situation of a Catholic Prussian King. Mind you, I entirely agree with Mildred that if the marriage had happened, AW would have found out that Fritz renounces that stepping aside from the succession as soon as FW has breathed his last breath, but that's not relevant to the Katte situation.)/end ETA/
re: the religious aspect, Mildred did change her mind here (due to Hans heinrich mentioning in his letters that Hans Herrmann asked him to send younger brother Albrecht to Halle so he can be educated as a good Protestant).
I, uh, want this fanfic that goes into Fritz lying to Katte, which I know mildred will object to, but perhaps she can be content with the fact that this would actually help me ship it :P (yeah, [personal profile] selenak is a mean writer, I'm a mean reader *hides*)
It says something about both of us that this is the first plot kernel that could lead to me to write something Fritz/Katte focused (as opposed to having Fritz/Katte as an emotional brackground ship, which it is in several of my stories) and you to read it. :)
his Royal Highness believes the Pragmatic Sanction of the Emperor to be firm enough that no one would have to worry about possible contradictions.
That's, uh. Something!
I know. :)
Fritz: Well, if I had married MT, then of course the Pragmatic Sanction would have been upheld. With me as Emperor.
I... was looking for something else in salon recently and ended up rereading a comment thread about how Fritz basically worked up until the day he died. Following his father's example. This all makes me very sad :(
It is very sad. Looking for a "well done, son" until he breathed his last breath, plus he had internalized the Protestant Work Ethic (minus the Protestant part) a long time ago by then. (Mind you, Catholic MT also worked until her three-days-death began, and she had not had a workoholic parent, but there were other emotional issues at play there.)
(Cardinal Richelieu: Excuse me. I, too, worked until I died. It's a thing that comes with being a smart and energetic autocratic despot, independent of religous affiliation.)
between the two of them, one had to learn to lie from early childhood onwards as a survival mechanism, and it wasn't Katte
Hard agree. This is one thing that skews me toward believing Fritz is the liar in the interrogation protocols, which is what leads me to the conclusion that Katte was sincere at the end.
Mildred did change her mind here (due to Hans heinrich mentioning in his letters that Hans Herrmann asked him to send younger brother Albrecht to Halle so he can be educated as a good Protestant).
Yes, because while atheists/deists/skeptics of all flavors are much more likely to pretend to be religious than pious people to pretend to be atheists, when the stakes are high, Katte has no ulterior motive to encourage the propagation of a religion he doesn't believe in after he's dead. A really committed atheist like Diderot would object on principle, and even someone who was just questioning wouldn't have an especially strong motive to go out of their way to encourage their younger brother to be indoctrinated in the true faith. (Technically, they might if they were absolutely agnostic and having an existential crisis and wanted to spare younger brother that, but we have no evidence for that for Katte, and an abundance of evidence he has sincerely found his way back to his childhood religion and is glad of it because it's helping him hold it together while he approaches his execution.)
And as I said even when I thought Katte might not have been sincere: this was probably one driver (of several) behind Fritz's oft-repeated conviction that Voltaire was going to recant on his deathbed.
It says something about both of us that this is the first plot kernel that could lead to me to write something Fritz/Katte focused (as opposed to having Fritz/Katte as an emotional brackground ship, which it is in several of my stories) and you to read it. :)
It says something about me that my first reaction was "I can just totally ignore the Hans Heinrich letter, it's obscure and doesn't count," though again, not because of Fritz's lying but because of Katte's sincerity. (Lol, look--if my faves weren't problematic, they wouldn't be my faves! That's true of every fave in every fandom in my entire life.)
It is very sad. Looking for a "well done, son" until he breathed his last breath, plus he had internalized the Protestant Work Ethic (minus the Protestant part) a long time ago by then.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Austrian marriage plans
Date: 2021-02-17 06:34 am (UTC)It came up when I found out myself, i.e. when I translated and summarized the Katte and Fritz 1730 interrogation protocols for the salon. Because while their stories mostly match, this is the big, big contradiction, with Katte saying Fritz told him Grumbkow and Seckendorff were trying to pressure him to marry an archduchess and convert, Fritz denying that he said this, and Katte, when he was asked again, insisting that it was true. Like I said, in theory, this could also be explained by Katte inventing the story on the spot in the hope that it would make arch Protestant FW look more kindly on his son's motives to flee (and Katte's own help). But given he says nothing else in all these interrogations that can be disproved (as I recall, he sometimes omits stuff which later comes up in the first few interrogations, but he doesn't say X happened only to be proven wrong later), and given that between the two of them, one had to learn to lie from early childhood onwards as a survival mechanism, and it wasn't Katte, I'm left with the conclusion that yes, Fritz point blank lied to Katte in 1730 as part of his effort to get him to agree to the escape plan.
/ETA: Also, it's telling that Fritz - who otherwise goes out of his way to protect Katte in the interrogations, confirming that the whole escape idea had been his idea, that Katte had tried to talk him out of it etc. - when asked about this contradiction can't come up with something less lame than "He must be misremembering", and doesn't even attempt to say "oh yeah, that totally happened!" himself, presumably because he knows there's no way FW is going to buy that. Not because FW is such a good judge of character, but because G & S know how hardcore Protestant he is, and to attempt a scheme that even smells of Catholic conversion for the next King of Prussia would be shooting themselves in the foot massively. (Note that Fritz suggests it to Grumbkow a few months later, he offers giving up on the succession in AW's favor if he gets to be Archduke and Emperor with MT, thus avoiding the situation of a Catholic Prussian King. Mind you, I entirely agree with Mildred that if the marriage had happened, AW would have found out that Fritz renounces that stepping aside from the succession as soon as FW has breathed his last breath, but that's not relevant to the Katte situation.)/end ETA/
re: the religious aspect, Mildred did change her mind here (due to Hans heinrich mentioning in his letters that Hans Herrmann asked him to send younger brother Albrecht to Halle so he can be educated as a good Protestant).
I, uh, want this fanfic that goes into Fritz lying to Katte, which I know mildred will object to, but perhaps she can be content with the fact that this would actually help me ship it :P (yeah, [personal profile] selenak is a mean writer, I'm a mean reader *hides*)
It says something about both of us that this is the first plot kernel that could lead to me to write something Fritz/Katte focused (as opposed to having Fritz/Katte as an emotional brackground ship, which it is in several of my stories) and you to read it. :)
his Royal Highness believes the Pragmatic Sanction of the Emperor to be firm enough that no one would have to worry about possible contradictions.
That's, uh. Something!
I know. :)
Fritz: Well, if I had married MT, then of course the Pragmatic Sanction would have been upheld. With me as Emperor.
I... was looking for something else in salon recently and ended up rereading a comment thread about how Fritz basically worked up until the day he died. Following his father's example. This all makes me very sad :(
It is very sad. Looking for a "well done, son" until he breathed his last breath, plus he had internalized the Protestant Work Ethic (minus the Protestant part) a long time ago by then.
(Mind you, Catholic MT also worked until her three-days-death began, and she had not had a workoholic parent, but there were other emotional issues at play there.)
(Cardinal Richelieu: Excuse me. I, too, worked until I died. It's a thing that comes with being a smart and energetic autocratic despot, independent of religous affiliation.)
Re: Austrian marriage plans
Date: 2021-02-20 06:04 pm (UTC)Hard agree. This is one thing that skews me toward believing Fritz is the liar in the interrogation protocols, which is what leads me to the conclusion that Katte was sincere at the end.
Mildred did change her mind here (due to Hans heinrich mentioning in his letters that Hans Herrmann asked him to send younger brother Albrecht to Halle so he can be educated as a good Protestant).
Yes, because while atheists/deists/skeptics of all flavors are much more likely to pretend to be religious than pious people to pretend to be atheists, when the stakes are high, Katte has no ulterior motive to encourage the propagation of a religion he doesn't believe in after he's dead. A really committed atheist like Diderot would object on principle, and even someone who was just questioning wouldn't have an especially strong motive to go out of their way to encourage their younger brother to be indoctrinated in the true faith. (Technically, they might if they were absolutely agnostic and having an existential crisis and wanted to spare younger brother that, but we have no evidence for that for Katte, and an abundance of evidence he has sincerely found his way back to his childhood religion and is glad of it
because it's helping him hold it together while he approaches his execution.)And as I said even when I thought Katte might not have been sincere: this was probably one driver (of several) behind Fritz's oft-repeated conviction that Voltaire was going to recant on his deathbed.
It says something about both of us that this is the first plot kernel that could lead to me to write something Fritz/Katte focused (as opposed to having Fritz/Katte as an emotional brackground ship, which it is in several of my stories) and you to read it. :)
It says something about me that my first reaction was "I can just totally ignore the Hans Heinrich letter, it's obscure and doesn't count," though again, not because of Fritz's lying but because of Katte's sincerity. (Lol, look--if my faves weren't problematic, they wouldn't be my faves! That's true of every fave in every fandom in my entire life.)
It is very sad. Looking for a "well done, son" until he breathed his last breath, plus he had internalized the Protestant Work Ethic (minus the Protestant part) a long time ago by then.
Yeah. :/