Something else going back to Volz reminded me of is that in addition to the famous portrait of Fritz written by Valory in the 1750s, there is one from just before FW's death, dated Berlin, March 18th 1740, reflecting both the early coolness between them but also shows Valory doing what Suhm does not, and certainly Voltaire (who didn't know FW) never did, seeing the similarity between FW and Fritz. BTW, I have a theory, based on Crown Prince Fritz' "a soldier but not a mind" judgment on Valory, as to what the problem was - Valory, who was sent as envoy to FW, after all, played up his military credentials in order to make a good impression (he'd been a general), which makes sense if you need to win over a King who prizes soldierliness over everything and who doesn't like the French and accuses them of being effeminate and what not in every other sentence. Now, subsequent years show Valory was very much culturally interested, and he definitely was smart and could be witty, but I bet he kept that hidden when first meeting up with FW, and Fritz judged him by that. So, here's Valory a month and a half before Fritz becomes King:
As far as his character is concerned, the Crown Prince entirely resembles his father, the King, except that he's far better at dissembling. Regarding his ability to lie I speak going by the judgment of those who know him best and who want to be closest to him. After their conviction, one will have to start with the study of his character from scratch, because he will be quite different as a King than he has been as Crown Prince. But they don't know what exactly he'll do, whom he'll give his affection to, whether he'll entrust the business of state to the same people, whether he'll give influence to the nobility or whether he'll rely on his ministers whose gifts the ruling King hasn't been able to esteem as they deserve. Thulemeier FW's secretary for foreign affairs -whose insight and wisdom I value highly doesn't want to pass judgment on the future, but he's convinced that the Crown Prince will act very differently than suspected once he's on the throne. In his view, those who count on his favour fool themselves. The great tasks awaiting him, the need for able coworkers in order to reverse the political mistakes his father has made and to use the rich heritage awaiting him will inevitably force him to neglect the sciences and to give his trust to those whose insight can be useful to him, and he will try to get to know those whose name has been blackened towards him. One expects great things from this prince; he could soon achieve the love of his subjects and the admiration of his neighbours. The discontent with the present government is universal, and everyone reacts badly if one tries to remind the people of the good qualities of the ruling King. Even the fear of him doesn't hold back the most gruff statements anymore. So if his successor shows even a bit of clemency and selflessness, all his other mistakes will be forgiven, if he does make them...
The post coronation report on Fritz which according to Volz' footnote is "the writing of an Anonymous sent by Count Mantteuffel to Brühl" (i.e. not directly written by Mantteuffel, unless he's disguising himself as Anonymous) which Felis mentioned is dated Berlin, September 1st 1740, and looks more like it's addressed to someone on the Imperial side, so might actually be a copy Mantteuffel made from a report not originally meant for Brühl's eyes. Quick reminder: Saxony is NOT, repeat NOT an ally to the Austrians in 1740. August III.'s wife, Maria Josepha, is MT's cousin and after the death of MT's father in November, once Fritz starts with the invading, the Saxons will have a go as well since August III. makes a brief attempt to become Emperor himself via his wife. He doesn't get the votes, Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach does, but bear it in mind when reading the following.
I believe there's need to tell you about what the Imperial Court as well as many other courts are fooling themselves in regards to the local court. 1. You seem to believe that the Queen has influence on her husband the King's mind, and could contribute to make him well disposed towards their court. You can forgot that. The Queen is a very amiable princess and has much common sense. But neither she nor any other woman has had even the shadow of power over this ruler. I very much doubt any woman ever will.
2. You believe he will act in contrast to everything his late father has done in everything. Thus he will gain as many allies as the later has had few; that he'll choose them according to the old interests of his House, and will, given his great mind, arrange his behavior in accordance with his ministers. That, too, you can forget. So far, the King hasn't departed by an inch from the princples of his father; for he, too, seems to favor a military government. The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them. He hasn't made more allies than the late King has had so far. Now I don't doubt that he'll find it necessary one day to make allies, but the time to choose them, let alone the time to seek them out, this time hasn't come yet. As far as his council of ministers is concerned, he hasn't assembled them once so far, let alone asked them to craft a decision for him. Which is why no minister so far can boast of having his confidence as far as the business of state is concerned, or to have given him advice he's actually listened to. The same is true of his generals, and, what is even more important, of his favourites. This may seem paradoxical to you, or unbelievable; but there it is.
3. You believe that we'll create a government system, and since he's always been known as a superior mind with rich gifts, scholarly knowledge and a great urge to educate himself, you believe this system has been thoroughly thought out and is based on the rules of a healthy policy and thus on the old principles of his House and of the Empire. Now I don't doubt he's created a system, but I am convinced he hasn't shared it with a single person, and that no one hasl helped him create it, and that he's basing it on any of the above named principles, but solely on his own, which he believes to be correct, because they flatter his self esteem. This is my judgment because he aims at being original and extraordinary in all he does, and thus applies the old principles only on those occasions when he really can't do anything else. Otherwise, he wants to be new and his own creator in everything.
4. You believe the convictions which everyone admired him for when he ascended to the throne has remained the same since he's become King. Now I won't say he's traded it in for the oppposite. But since his greatest pleasure consists of surprising the world with something new, he seems to aim at showing himself every different from what he used to be. This, people had feared he would show a great dislike to the military, and this fear had a solid foundation in the fact that he's physically fragile, has an extraordinary disposition towards science and reading, and even more in the fact his father used such rough force on him to teach him love for the soldier's job. Moreover, it was faeared that he would be as wasteful as his father has been thrifty, and this was founded in his love for splendor, his love for good food and his fondness for everything expensive, in his loathing against everything which looked like miserlinesss, and in his repeated clemencies, his generosity and this constant spending which used to be always more than the small sums his father had been willing to give him. But since he has ascended to the throne, one would like to say he has shown only favour for the military and seems to believe himself born to be a soldier. And regarding the potential wastefulness, he has shown great care to calm those who believed him to have a disposition towards it, and to show them that he can push thriftiness and all the economic virtues even further than the late King, which everyone thought to be impossible. I don't want to call him a miser, but he has used so many opportunities to show himself as such by now that all the world has been convinced that he won't just not be wasteful, no, that he'll never be generous again. Still, he can't be trusted in this. As soon as the world believes he's entirely engulfed in thriftiness, he may teach it otherwise and will show himself as one wants to see him.
In conclusion: I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel, not least because the certainty of Fritz' gayness sounds a lot like his remarks in this regard to Seckendorff Jr., though in that case I don't know why he bothers when the disguise when writing to his boss who explicitly wanted a Fritz estimation.
Oh, I like your Valory theory, that makes sense! Also, hey, there's the early Valory take on Fritz that I very dimly remembered reading and couldn't find again. Nice.
I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel, not least because the certainty of Fritz' gayness sounds a lot like his remarks in this regard to Seckendorff Jr., though in that case I don't know why he bothers when the disguise
Yeah, it's strange. I too assumed it was him at first, but on the other hand, I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him? The one reason for the "anonymous" I can think of could be that Saxony is indeed not an Austrian ally at that point, but Manteuffel himself was a secret agent for both of them, although I'm not sure about the timeline and if that's still the case in 1740.
You seem to believe that the Queen has influence on her husband the King's mind,
I'm certainly wondering who the "you" is, a.k.a. the person whose intel was so bad that they thought EC of all people had any influence on Fritz.
No kidding. Can't be anyone who ever met them. I mean, even in the Rheinsberg years, when they lived together and she herself was happy in the belief they loved each other, she never thought she had influence on him, and no one else I recall thought so, either.
(Even the No Homo historians, who quote the quote by Fritz complimenting her vagina ad nauseam, only insist he had het urgines for her, not that she had influence on him. As I recall, during the 1730s the people who were speculated by envoys to have influence on Fritz in his future kingdom were Wilhelmine, SD and potential favourites. Never EC.
I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him?
On the one hand, yes. On the other, maybe he needed cash and listed fictional sources in his accounts for bribery money? Then again, he was well off enough to donate to the university of Leipzig, both money, books, and eventually the portrait with the indiscreet Fritz-addressing letter, so...
Re: Manteuffel, still a secret agent for Austria or not: well, he had reported to Seckendorff Jr., who was gone and now in Ansbach service, and Seckendorff Snr. the Field Marshal was locked up in Graz until MT's ascension due to being blamed for a defeat against the Turks, so maybe not?
One thing is certain: he can't be the "You" who thinks EC has influence, either, not the guy who had that open chat with Fritz about better getting an heir on EC, no matter Fritz' lack of passion, lest AW becomes King. So if someone else wrote that letter, he's not talking to Manteuffel, meaning Manteuffel got his hands on someone else's correspondence. Le Diable indeed!
Rhetorical question: Who has the worst intel and an incentive to believe EC has influence?
Non-rhetorical question: When did Stratemann stop being envoy? I know his published reports only go up to 1733, but might he have continued a little longer than that? I have it in my head that he died just before Fritz became king, in 1739, but I can't find anything to back up that source except one website that says "about 1667-1739." Let me check the preface to the envoy reports...
Oh, hey! He died in 1739.
My German isn't fast enough and I don't have enough time before work to tell if he was envoy after 1733 (can someone else take a quick look when they have time? Or I will when I have time), but maybe his successor is writing to the Brunswick minister going, "Look, everything Stratemann told you is hopelessly naive"?
Stratemann's successor reporting home to Braunschweig that reality looks somewhat different is as good an idea as any. As to whether Stratemann was still envoy after 1733, or retired, here's what Richard Wolff says in the preface:
Stratemann muß es verstanden haben, dank seiner guten Beziehungen in Berlin, die Braunschweiger Regierung stets zufriedenzustellen; denn bei dem nachmaligen wiederholten Regierungswechsel wurde in den jedesmal neu ausgestellten Creditiven stets auf seine langjährigen dem braunschweigischen Staate treu geleisteten Dienste rühmend hingewiesen. Auch die fortgesetzte Steigerung seines Gehaltes (während er sich zuerst mit 200 Reichstalern begnügen mußte, stiegen seine jährlichen Einnahmen aus der braunschweigischen Staatskasse schließlich bis auf 700 Taler) und seine am 26. Mai 1734 erfolgte Bestallung zum Geheimen Legationsrat bekunden, daß er dem Braunschweiger Hofe achtbare Dienste geleistet hatte. Am 1. Januar 1739 starb er in einem Alter von mehr als 72 Jahren.
So basically yes, and he kept getting salary raises and promotions, presumably to go along with the glowing reports on how well Hohenzollern family life was doing.
...there is just one fly in an otherwise perfect ointment. At this point, I think Charlotte's husband was Duke. Charlotte as in Fritz' sister, the very one who mocked EC mercilessly and made the crack about bad smells and ulcers in her after. Somehow I can't see Charlotte's husband believing reports on how EC has great influence on Fritz?
Point taken. Stratemann: the official Disney version chronicler of the Hohenzollern Home Life. I really don't envoy his successor having to explain why EC writes letters about feeling like a prisoner back home...
shows Valory doing what Suhm does not, and certainly Voltaire (who didn't know FW) never did, seeing the similarity between FW and Fritz.
Oh, that's really interesting!
Like felis, I was taken aback by the thought that anyone thought EC had any influence over Fritz, but I am delighted that this thread comes up with a plausible guess for Anonymous based on this :D
The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them.
shows Valory doing what Suhm does not, and certainly Voltaire (who didn't know FW) never did, seeing the similarity between FW and Fritz.
Oh, that's really interesting!
Isn't it just! I mean, Suhm, who loved Fritz, is able to correctly see his love for fame as a primary motive, and his capacity for acting militarily not according to personal sympathies but to what is ueseful to him. Manteuffel's Anonymous (or Le Diable himself) is able to predict Fritz will go the military way as well. But I think Valory is the only one who in a chorus of "he and his father are so different, complete opposites of each other" is saying "nope, he and Dad are totally alike, only Fritz is a far better actor/liar". Now if he was writing this after Fritz had become King, it wouldn't be that remarkable. (For example, the passage in Valory's 1750s Fritz assessment where he says that Fritz treats his brothers like his father treated him is clearly personal observation, but anyone could have said that.) But making that assessment before Fritz gets to the throne, and based on just a year or so of observation is pretty sharp and astute. And I think that Fritz initially didn't like him might have helped seeing what the others missed, because I don't believe Valory is just referring to Fritz and FW both privileging the army. Just look as Suhm confidently declaring that Fritz might have mocked people in the past, but now he's grown beyond that; Fritz sharing FW's capacity for verbal abuse (especially when miserable himself) and the need to make family members (Heinrich, Wilhelmine, AW) submit to him the way he submitted to Dad after an argument is not something I can see Suhm or even Manteuffel predicting, but it's entirely in line with the early Valory assessment.
(By contrast, early Valory misses what later Valory in his 1750s portrait does point out, that Fritz can also be incredibly charming. Presumably because later Valory actually had times when he was charmed, once Fritz had warmed up to him during the Silesian Wars.)
The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them.
I gotta say this made me laugh :D
Same. No matter whether the phrase comes from New Brunswick Ambassador, Wartensleben or Manteuffel himself, it's well put, well put indeed. :)
But I think Valory is the only one who in a chorus of "he and his father are so different, complete opposites of each other" is saying "nope, he and Dad are totally alike, only Fritz is a far better actor/liar".
He's the only one writing this to Brühl, evidently, but as noted, at least some people (like Superville) did pick up on it.
And I think that Fritz initially didn't like him might have helped seeing what the others missed
Just look as Suhm confidently declaring that Fritz might have mocked people in the past, but now he's grown beyond that;
Yep, for all Suhm's protestations that love isn't blinding him, I feel the fact that one loves and is loved by him (which is important enough to make it into the write-up multiple times! including as a positive character trait) makes it harder to see the similarities to the guy who threatened to hang him.
It's also worth mentioning that Valory has seen Fritz up close in recent years, whereas Suhm has been correspondence- (and spies?) only for the last three. He might easily have been misled by letters criticizing people who mock others and miss out on the constant in-person mockery of everyone around Fritz.
Fritz sharing FW's capacity for verbal abuse (especially when miserable himself) and the need to make family members (Heinrich, Wilhelmine, AW) submit to him the way he submitted to Dad after an argument is not something I can see Suhm or even Manteuffel predicting, but it's entirely in line with the early Valory assessment.
Agreed. Suhm would clearly have been less shocked than some people, but still caught off guard by various things, and especially as the years went on.
Same. No matter whether the phrase comes from New Brunswick Ambassador, Wartensleben or Manteuffel himself, it's well put, well put indeed. :)
That's why part of me wants it to have originated with Voltaire! Lol.
I have a theory, based on Crown Prince Fritz' "a soldier but not a mind" judgment on Valory, as to what the problem was - Valory, who was sent as envoy to FW, after all, played up his military credentials in order to make a good impression (he'd been a general), which makes sense if you need to win over a King who prizes soldierliness over everything and who doesn't like the French and accuses them of being effeminate and what not in every other sentence. Now, subsequent years show Valory was very much culturally interested, and he definitely was smart and could be witty, but I bet he kept that hidden when first meeting up with FW, and Fritz judged him by that.
Yes, of course, this must be it! That's what a really good diplomat would do if he could pull it off. (Suhm was notoriously bad at making headway with FW, and finally the Saxons decided to send someone who could join the Tobacco Parliament.)
[ETA: See also Seckendorff smuggling his books in.]
to show them that he can push thriftiness and all the economic virtues even further than the late King, which everyone thought to be impossible.
Superville: I called it!
To remind everyone, Superville on Fritz in 1739:
much wit/spirit/intelligence, but a bad heart and a terrible character. He's suspicious, stubborn, excessive, selfish, ungrateful, vicious, and unless I'm very much mistaken, will someday be even stingier than his father.
And then he got the hell out of Prussia before Fritz could become king!
The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them.
That's in Voltaire's memoirs! Now, this could easily be something they both independently observed. Voltaire presents it as a difference, not with emphasis on the similarity (as noted, he never met FW). But, didn't Voltaire stay with Valory for a while around this time? I.e. when he wrote the poem about Algarotti/Lugeac as Socrates/Alcibiades? Might this have come up during their discussions?
Speaking of Lugeac, between Alcibiades hitting on Lugeac and Fritz possibly hitting on Darget (and definitely writing satiric porn about him), I've got to conclude that Valory had a habit of picking hot stuff for his staff. ;)
ETA: no, wait, I misread. This is from the anonymous report, not from Valory's post-coronation report. Hmm.
Berlin, September 1st 1740
And Voltaire doesn't arrive in Berlin until when, October? Too late to be the source, anyway. Hmmm. Could just be independent observations! Though because Voltaire makes memorable remarks and people pick them up and reuse them, I kind of want this one to have originated with him somehow. :P
Not very scientific, I know! But...Wartensleben overhears it in Cleves, conveys it in his report via super-fast courier to Manteuffel, Manteuffel is Anonymous after all? :P
In conclusion: I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel
Quite possible. Do we know who the Brunswick successor to the recently deceased Stratemann was? It would be interesting to see if we could figure anything out about him and find his envoy reports.
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timeasmymeasure
Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 08:33 am (UTC)As far as his character is concerned, the Crown Prince entirely resembles his father, the King, except that he's far better at dissembling. Regarding his ability to lie I speak going by the judgment of those who know him best and who want to be closest to him. After their conviction, one will have to start with the study of his character from scratch, because he will be quite different as a King than he has been as Crown Prince. But they don't know what exactly he'll do, whom he'll give his affection to, whether he'll entrust the business of state to the same people, whether he'll give influence to the nobility or whether he'll rely on his ministers whose gifts the ruling King hasn't been able to esteem as they deserve.
Thulemeier FW's secretary for foreign affairs -whose insight and wisdom I value highly doesn't want to pass judgment on the future, but he's convinced that the Crown Prince will act very differently than suspected once he's on the throne. In his view, those who count on his favour fool themselves. The great tasks awaiting him, the need for able coworkers in order to reverse the political mistakes his father has made and to use the rich heritage awaiting him will inevitably force him to neglect the sciences and to give his trust to those whose insight can be useful to him, and he will try to get to know those whose name has been blackened towards him.
One expects great things from this prince; he could soon achieve the love of his subjects and the admiration of his neighbours. The discontent with the present government is universal, and everyone reacts badly if one tries to remind the people of the good qualities of the ruling King. Even the fear of him doesn't hold back the most gruff statements anymore. So if his successor shows even a bit of clemency and selflessness, all his other mistakes will be forgiven, if he does make them...
The post coronation report on Fritz which according to Volz' footnote is "the writing of an Anonymous sent by Count Mantteuffel to Brühl" (i.e. not directly written by Mantteuffel, unless he's disguising himself as Anonymous) which Felis mentioned is dated Berlin, September 1st 1740, and looks more like it's addressed to someone on the Imperial side, so might actually be a copy Mantteuffel made from a report not originally meant for Brühl's eyes. Quick reminder: Saxony is NOT, repeat NOT an ally to the Austrians in 1740. August III.'s wife, Maria Josepha, is MT's cousin and after the death of MT's father in November, once Fritz starts with the invading, the Saxons will have a go as well since August III. makes a brief attempt to become Emperor himself via his wife. He doesn't get the votes, Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach does, but bear it in mind when reading the following.
I believe there's need to tell you about what the Imperial Court as well as many other courts are fooling themselves in regards to the local court.
1. You seem to believe that the Queen has influence on her husband the King's mind, and could contribute to make him well disposed towards their court. You can forgot that. The Queen is a very amiable princess and has much common sense. But neither she nor any other woman has had even the shadow of power over this ruler. I very much doubt any woman ever will.
2. You believe he will act in contrast to everything his late father has done in everything. Thus he will gain as many allies as the later has had few; that he'll choose them according to the old interests of his House, and will, given his great mind, arrange his behavior in accordance with his ministers. That, too, you can forget. So far, the King hasn't departed by an inch from the princples of his father; for he, too, seems to favor a military government. The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them. He hasn't made more allies than the late King has had so far. Now I don't doubt that he'll find it necessary one day to make allies, but the time to choose them, let alone the time to seek them out, this time hasn't come yet. As far as his council of ministers is concerned, he hasn't assembled them once so far, let alone asked them to craft a decision for him. Which is why no minister so far can boast of having his confidence as far as the business of state is concerned, or to have given him advice he's actually listened to. The same is true of his generals, and, what is even more important, of his favourites. This may seem paradoxical to you, or unbelievable; but there it is.
3. You believe that we'll create a government system, and since he's always been known as a superior mind with rich gifts, scholarly knowledge and a great urge to educate himself, you believe this system has been thoroughly thought out and is based on the rules of a healthy policy and thus on the old principles of his House and of the Empire. Now I don't doubt he's created a system, but I am convinced he hasn't shared it with a single person, and that no one hasl helped him create it, and that he's basing it on any of the above named principles, but solely on his own, which he believes to be correct, because they flatter his self esteem. This is my judgment because he aims at being original and extraordinary in all he does, and thus applies the old principles only on those occasions when he really can't do anything else. Otherwise, he wants to be new and his own creator in everything.
4. You believe the convictions which everyone admired him for when he ascended to the throne has remained the same since he's become King. Now I won't say he's traded it in for the oppposite. But since his greatest pleasure consists of surprising the world with something new, he seems to aim at showing himself every different from what he used to be. This, people had feared he would show a great dislike to the military, and this fear had a solid foundation in the fact that he's physically fragile, has an extraordinary disposition towards science and reading, and even more in the fact his father used such rough force on him to teach him love for the soldier's job. Moreover, it was faeared that he would be as wasteful as his father has been thrifty, and this was founded in his love for splendor, his love for good food and his fondness for everything expensive, in his loathing against everything which looked like miserlinesss, and in his repeated clemencies, his generosity and this constant spending which used to be always more than the small sums his father had been willing to give him.
But since he has ascended to the throne, one would like to say he has shown only favour for the military and seems to believe himself born to be a soldier. And regarding the potential wastefulness, he has shown great care to calm those who believed him to have a disposition towards it, and to show them that he can push thriftiness and all the economic virtues even further than the late King, which everyone thought to be impossible. I don't want to call him a miser, but he has used so many opportunities to show himself as such by now that all the world has been convinced that he won't just not be wasteful, no, that he'll never be generous again. Still, he can't be trusted in this. As soon as the world believes he's entirely engulfed in thriftiness, he may teach it otherwise and will show himself as one wants to see him.
In conclusion: I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel, not least because the certainty of Fritz' gayness sounds a lot like his remarks in this regard to Seckendorff Jr., though in that case I don't know why he bothers when the disguise when writing to his boss who explicitly wanted a Fritz estimation.
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 02:58 pm (UTC)I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel, not least because the certainty of Fritz' gayness sounds a lot like his remarks in this regard to Seckendorff Jr., though in that case I don't know why he bothers when the disguise
Yeah, it's strange. I too assumed it was him at first, but on the other hand, I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him? The one reason for the "anonymous" I can think of could be that Saxony is indeed not an Austrian ally at that point, but Manteuffel himself was a secret agent for both of them, although I'm not sure about the timeline and if that's still the case in 1740.
You seem to believe that the Queen has influence on her husband the King's mind,
I'm certainly wondering who the "you" is, a.k.a. the person whose intel was so bad that they thought EC of all people had any influence on Fritz.
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 03:13 pm (UTC)(Even the No Homo historians, who quote the quote by Fritz complimenting her vagina ad nauseam, only insist he had het urgines for her, not that she had influence on him. As I recall, during the 1730s the people who were speculated by envoys to have influence on Fritz in his future kingdom were Wilhelmine, SD and potential favourites. Never EC.
I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him?
On the one hand, yes. On the other, maybe he needed cash and listed fictional sources in his accounts for bribery money? Then again, he was well off enough to donate to the university of Leipzig, both money, books, and eventually the portrait with the indiscreet Fritz-addressing letter, so...
Re: Manteuffel, still a secret agent for Austria or not: well, he had reported to Seckendorff Jr., who was gone and now in Ansbach service, and Seckendorff Snr. the Field Marshal was locked up in Graz until MT's ascension due to being blamed for a defeat against the Turks, so maybe not?
One thing is certain: he can't be the "You" who thinks EC has influence, either, not the guy who had that open chat with Fritz about better getting an heir on EC, no matter Fritz' lack of passion, lest AW becomes King. So if someone else wrote that letter, he's not talking to Manteuffel, meaning Manteuffel got his hands on someone else's correspondence. Le Diable indeed!
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 03:41 pm (UTC)Non-rhetorical question: When did Stratemann stop being envoy? I know his published reports only go up to 1733, but might he have continued a little longer than that? I have it in my head that he died just before Fritz became king, in 1739, but I can't find anything to back up that source except one website that says "about 1667-1739." Let me check the preface to the envoy reports...
Oh, hey! He died in 1739.
My German isn't fast enough and I don't have enough time before work to tell if he was envoy after 1733 (can someone else take a quick look when they have time? Or I will when I have time), but maybe his successor is writing to the Brunswick minister going, "Look, everything Stratemann told you is hopelessly naive"?
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:08 pm (UTC)Stratemann muß es verstanden haben, dank seiner guten Beziehungen in Berlin, die Braunschweiger Regierung stets zufriedenzustellen; denn bei dem nachmaligen wiederholten Regierungswechsel wurde in den jedesmal neu ausgestellten Creditiven stets auf seine langjährigen dem braunschweigischen Staate treu geleisteten Dienste rühmend hingewiesen. Auch die fortgesetzte Steigerung seines Gehaltes (während er sich zuerst mit 200 Reichstalern begnügen mußte, stiegen seine jährlichen Einnahmen aus der braunschweigischen Staatskasse schließlich bis auf 700 Taler) und seine am 26. Mai 1734 erfolgte Bestallung zum Geheimen Legationsrat bekunden, daß er dem
Braunschweiger Hofe achtbare Dienste geleistet hatte. Am 1. Januar 1739 starb er in einem Alter von mehr als 72 Jahren.
So basically yes, and he kept getting salary raises and promotions, presumably to go along with the glowing reports on how well Hohenzollern family life was doing.
...there is just one fly in an otherwise perfect ointment. At this point, I think Charlotte's husband was Duke. Charlotte as in Fritz' sister, the very one who mocked EC mercilessly and made the crack about bad smells and ulcers in her after. Somehow I can't see Charlotte's husband believing reports on how EC has great influence on Fritz?
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:11 pm (UTC)Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:19 pm (UTC)Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:59 pm (UTC)don't envoy his successor
Can I just say I love this typo? :D
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-17 06:21 am (UTC)Oh, that's really interesting!
Like
The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them.
I gotta say this made me laugh :D
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-17 06:54 am (UTC)Oh, that's really interesting!
Isn't it just! I mean, Suhm, who loved Fritz, is able to correctly see his love for fame as a primary motive, and his capacity for acting militarily not according to personal sympathies but to what is ueseful to him. Manteuffel's Anonymous (or Le Diable himself) is able to predict Fritz will go the military way as well. But I think Valory is the only one who in a chorus of "he and his father are so different, complete opposites of each other" is saying "nope, he and Dad are totally alike, only Fritz is a far better actor/liar". Now if he was writing this after Fritz had become King, it wouldn't be that remarkable. (For example, the passage in Valory's 1750s Fritz assessment where he says that Fritz treats his brothers like his father treated him is clearly personal observation, but anyone could have said that.) But making that assessment before Fritz gets to the throne, and based on just a year or so of observation is pretty sharp and astute. And I think that Fritz initially didn't like him might have helped seeing what the others missed, because I don't believe Valory is just referring to Fritz and FW both privileging the army. Just look as Suhm confidently declaring that Fritz might have mocked people in the past, but now he's grown beyond that; Fritz sharing FW's capacity for verbal abuse (especially when miserable himself) and the need to make family members (Heinrich, Wilhelmine, AW) submit to him the way he submitted to Dad after an argument is not something I can see Suhm or even Manteuffel predicting, but it's entirely in line with the early Valory assessment.
(By contrast, early Valory misses what later Valory in his 1750s portrait does point out, that Fritz can also be incredibly charming. Presumably because later Valory actually had times when he was charmed, once Fritz had warmed up to him during the Silesian Wars.)
The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them.
I gotta say this made me laugh :D
Same. No matter whether the phrase comes from New Brunswick Ambassador, Wartensleben or Manteuffel himself, it's well put, well put indeed. :)
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-20 02:53 pm (UTC)He's the only one writing this to Brühl, evidently, but as noted, at least some people (like Superville) did pick up on it.
And I think that Fritz initially didn't like him might have helped seeing what the others missed
Just look as Suhm confidently declaring that Fritz might have mocked people in the past, but now he's grown beyond that;
Yep, for all Suhm's protestations that love isn't blinding him, I feel the fact that one loves and is loved by him (which is important enough to make it into the write-up multiple times! including as a positive character trait) makes it harder to see the similarities to the guy who threatened to hang him.
It's also worth mentioning that Valory has seen Fritz up close in recent years, whereas Suhm has been correspondence- (and spies?) only for the last three. He might easily have been misled by letters criticizing people who mock others and miss out on the constant in-person mockery of everyone around Fritz.
Fritz sharing FW's capacity for verbal abuse (especially when miserable himself) and the need to make family members (Heinrich, Wilhelmine, AW) submit to him the way he submitted to Dad after an argument is not something I can see Suhm or even Manteuffel predicting, but it's entirely in line with the early Valory assessment.
Agreed. Suhm would clearly have been less shocked than some people, but still caught off guard by various things, and especially as the years went on.
Same. No matter whether the phrase comes from New Brunswick Ambassador, Wartensleben or Manteuffel himself, it's well put, well put indeed. :)
That's why part of me wants it to have originated with Voltaire! Lol.
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-20 02:37 pm (UTC)Yes, of course, this must be it! That's what a really good diplomat would do if he could pull it off. (Suhm was notoriously bad at making headway with FW, and finally the Saxons decided to send someone who could join the Tobacco Parliament.)
[ETA: See also Seckendorff smuggling his books in.]
to show them that he can push thriftiness and all the economic virtues even further than the late King, which everyone thought to be impossible.
Superville: I called it!
To remind everyone, Superville on Fritz in 1739:
much wit/spirit/intelligence, but a bad heart and a terrible character. He's suspicious, stubborn, excessive, selfish, ungrateful, vicious, and unless I'm very much mistaken, will someday be even stingier than his father.
And then he got the hell out of Prussia before Fritz could become king!
The sole difference is that the father had a fetish for tall soldiers, and the son just wants good looking ones, and more of them.
That's in Voltaire's memoirs! Now, this could easily be something they both independently observed. Voltaire presents it as a difference, not with emphasis on the similarity (as noted, he never met FW). But, didn't Voltaire stay with Valory for a while around this time? I.e. when he wrote the poem about Algarotti/Lugeac as Socrates/Alcibiades? Might this have come up during their discussions?
Speaking of Lugeac, between Alcibiades hitting on Lugeac and Fritz possibly hitting on Darget (and definitely writing satiric porn about him), I've got to conclude that Valory had a habit of picking hot stuff for his staff. ;)
ETA: no, wait, I misread. This is from the anonymous report, not from Valory's post-coronation report. Hmm.
Berlin, September 1st 1740
And Voltaire doesn't arrive in Berlin until when, October? Too late to be the source, anyway. Hmmm. Could just be independent observations! Though because Voltaire makes memorable remarks and people pick them up and reuse them, I kind of want this one to have originated with him somehow. :P
Not very scientific, I know! But...Wartensleben overhears it in Cleves, conveys it in his report via super-fast courier to Manteuffel, Manteuffel is Anonymous after all? :P
In conclusion: I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel
Quite possible. Do we know who the Brunswick successor to the recently deceased Stratemann was? It would be interesting to see if we could figure anything out about him
and find his envoy reports.