Oh, I like your Valory theory, that makes sense! Also, hey, there's the early Valory take on Fritz that I very dimly remembered reading and couldn't find again. Nice.
I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel, not least because the certainty of Fritz' gayness sounds a lot like his remarks in this regard to Seckendorff Jr., though in that case I don't know why he bothers when the disguise
Yeah, it's strange. I too assumed it was him at first, but on the other hand, I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him? The one reason for the "anonymous" I can think of could be that Saxony is indeed not an Austrian ally at that point, but Manteuffel himself was a secret agent for both of them, although I'm not sure about the timeline and if that's still the case in 1740.
You seem to believe that the Queen has influence on her husband the King's mind,
I'm certainly wondering who the "you" is, a.k.a. the person whose intel was so bad that they thought EC of all people had any influence on Fritz.
No kidding. Can't be anyone who ever met them. I mean, even in the Rheinsberg years, when they lived together and she herself was happy in the belief they loved each other, she never thought she had influence on him, and no one else I recall thought so, either.
(Even the No Homo historians, who quote the quote by Fritz complimenting her vagina ad nauseam, only insist he had het urgines for her, not that she had influence on him. As I recall, during the 1730s the people who were speculated by envoys to have influence on Fritz in his future kingdom were Wilhelmine, SD and potential favourites. Never EC.
I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him?
On the one hand, yes. On the other, maybe he needed cash and listed fictional sources in his accounts for bribery money? Then again, he was well off enough to donate to the university of Leipzig, both money, books, and eventually the portrait with the indiscreet Fritz-addressing letter, so...
Re: Manteuffel, still a secret agent for Austria or not: well, he had reported to Seckendorff Jr., who was gone and now in Ansbach service, and Seckendorff Snr. the Field Marshal was locked up in Graz until MT's ascension due to being blamed for a defeat against the Turks, so maybe not?
One thing is certain: he can't be the "You" who thinks EC has influence, either, not the guy who had that open chat with Fritz about better getting an heir on EC, no matter Fritz' lack of passion, lest AW becomes King. So if someone else wrote that letter, he's not talking to Manteuffel, meaning Manteuffel got his hands on someone else's correspondence. Le Diable indeed!
Rhetorical question: Who has the worst intel and an incentive to believe EC has influence?
Non-rhetorical question: When did Stratemann stop being envoy? I know his published reports only go up to 1733, but might he have continued a little longer than that? I have it in my head that he died just before Fritz became king, in 1739, but I can't find anything to back up that source except one website that says "about 1667-1739." Let me check the preface to the envoy reports...
Oh, hey! He died in 1739.
My German isn't fast enough and I don't have enough time before work to tell if he was envoy after 1733 (can someone else take a quick look when they have time? Or I will when I have time), but maybe his successor is writing to the Brunswick minister going, "Look, everything Stratemann told you is hopelessly naive"?
Stratemann's successor reporting home to Braunschweig that reality looks somewhat different is as good an idea as any. As to whether Stratemann was still envoy after 1733, or retired, here's what Richard Wolff says in the preface:
Stratemann muß es verstanden haben, dank seiner guten Beziehungen in Berlin, die Braunschweiger Regierung stets zufriedenzustellen; denn bei dem nachmaligen wiederholten Regierungswechsel wurde in den jedesmal neu ausgestellten Creditiven stets auf seine langjährigen dem braunschweigischen Staate treu geleisteten Dienste rühmend hingewiesen. Auch die fortgesetzte Steigerung seines Gehaltes (während er sich zuerst mit 200 Reichstalern begnügen mußte, stiegen seine jährlichen Einnahmen aus der braunschweigischen Staatskasse schließlich bis auf 700 Taler) und seine am 26. Mai 1734 erfolgte Bestallung zum Geheimen Legationsrat bekunden, daß er dem Braunschweiger Hofe achtbare Dienste geleistet hatte. Am 1. Januar 1739 starb er in einem Alter von mehr als 72 Jahren.
So basically yes, and he kept getting salary raises and promotions, presumably to go along with the glowing reports on how well Hohenzollern family life was doing.
...there is just one fly in an otherwise perfect ointment. At this point, I think Charlotte's husband was Duke. Charlotte as in Fritz' sister, the very one who mocked EC mercilessly and made the crack about bad smells and ulcers in her after. Somehow I can't see Charlotte's husband believing reports on how EC has great influence on Fritz?
Point taken. Stratemann: the official Disney version chronicler of the Hohenzollern Home Life. I really don't envoy his successor having to explain why EC writes letters about feeling like a prisoner back home...
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 02:58 pm (UTC)I do suspect Anonyomous is Mantteuffel, not least because the certainty of Fritz' gayness sounds a lot like his remarks in this regard to Seckendorff Jr., though in that case I don't know why he bothers when the disguise
Yeah, it's strange. I too assumed it was him at first, but on the other hand, I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him? The one reason for the "anonymous" I can think of could be that Saxony is indeed not an Austrian ally at that point, but Manteuffel himself was a secret agent for both of them, although I'm not sure about the timeline and if that's still the case in 1740.
You seem to believe that the Queen has influence on her husband the King's mind,
I'm certainly wondering who the "you" is, a.k.a. the person whose intel was so bad that they thought EC of all people had any influence on Fritz.
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 03:13 pm (UTC)(Even the No Homo historians, who quote the quote by Fritz complimenting her vagina ad nauseam, only insist he had het urgines for her, not that she had influence on him. As I recall, during the 1730s the people who were speculated by envoys to have influence on Fritz in his future kingdom were Wilhelmine, SD and potential favourites. Never EC.
I feel like Troeger and Volz, who's using him as his source, would have suspected the same and at least commented on it if they thought there was a chance it was him?
On the one hand, yes. On the other, maybe he needed cash and listed fictional sources in his accounts for bribery money? Then again, he was well off enough to donate to the university of Leipzig, both money, books, and eventually the portrait with the indiscreet Fritz-addressing letter, so...
Re: Manteuffel, still a secret agent for Austria or not: well, he had reported to Seckendorff Jr., who was gone and now in Ansbach service, and Seckendorff Snr. the Field Marshal was locked up in Graz until MT's ascension due to being blamed for a defeat against the Turks, so maybe not?
One thing is certain: he can't be the "You" who thinks EC has influence, either, not the guy who had that open chat with Fritz about better getting an heir on EC, no matter Fritz' lack of passion, lest AW becomes King. So if someone else wrote that letter, he's not talking to Manteuffel, meaning Manteuffel got his hands on someone else's correspondence. Le Diable indeed!
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 03:41 pm (UTC)Non-rhetorical question: When did Stratemann stop being envoy? I know his published reports only go up to 1733, but might he have continued a little longer than that? I have it in my head that he died just before Fritz became king, in 1739, but I can't find anything to back up that source except one website that says "about 1667-1739." Let me check the preface to the envoy reports...
Oh, hey! He died in 1739.
My German isn't fast enough and I don't have enough time before work to tell if he was envoy after 1733 (can someone else take a quick look when they have time? Or I will when I have time), but maybe his successor is writing to the Brunswick minister going, "Look, everything Stratemann told you is hopelessly naive"?
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:08 pm (UTC)Stratemann muß es verstanden haben, dank seiner guten Beziehungen in Berlin, die Braunschweiger Regierung stets zufriedenzustellen; denn bei dem nachmaligen wiederholten Regierungswechsel wurde in den jedesmal neu ausgestellten Creditiven stets auf seine langjährigen dem braunschweigischen Staate treu geleisteten Dienste rühmend hingewiesen. Auch die fortgesetzte Steigerung seines Gehaltes (während er sich zuerst mit 200 Reichstalern begnügen mußte, stiegen seine jährlichen Einnahmen aus der braunschweigischen Staatskasse schließlich bis auf 700 Taler) und seine am 26. Mai 1734 erfolgte Bestallung zum Geheimen Legationsrat bekunden, daß er dem
Braunschweiger Hofe achtbare Dienste geleistet hatte. Am 1. Januar 1739 starb er in einem Alter von mehr als 72 Jahren.
So basically yes, and he kept getting salary raises and promotions, presumably to go along with the glowing reports on how well Hohenzollern family life was doing.
...there is just one fly in an otherwise perfect ointment. At this point, I think Charlotte's husband was Duke. Charlotte as in Fritz' sister, the very one who mocked EC mercilessly and made the crack about bad smells and ulcers in her after. Somehow I can't see Charlotte's husband believing reports on how EC has great influence on Fritz?
Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:11 pm (UTC)Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:19 pm (UTC)Re: Valory and Mantteuffel
Date: 2021-02-15 04:59 pm (UTC)don't envoy his successor
Can I just say I love this typo? :D