The Jewish War: Book 7
May. 3rd, 2026 02:20 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnThe last book!
Last week: Astrological phenomena and the star of Bethlehem. Messianic (?) prophecy about Vespasian. Brutality of the siege, and discussion of the law of war protecting prisoners from the enemy army (or lack thereof). Imperator.
This week: Book 7. Wrapping up of the war. The Masada fortress and group suicide (which I think is interesting to think about given the discussion we had a few books back). The temple of Onias. (Dedicated commment threads for both of these below, for anyone who wants to join in!)
Yay book club, thank you everyone!
Last week: Astrological phenomena and the star of Bethlehem. Messianic (?) prophecy about Vespasian. Brutality of the siege, and discussion of the law of war protecting prisoners from the enemy army (or lack thereof). Imperator.
This week: Book 7. Wrapping up of the war. The Masada fortress and group suicide (which I think is interesting to think about given the discussion we had a few books back). The temple of Onias. (Dedicated commment threads for both of these below, for anyone who wants to join in!)
Yay book club, thank you everyone!
Recap
Date: 2026-05-04 03:40 am (UTC)Titus tells his troops how great they are, in a passage that really hits weirdly to me right after all this devastation (probably way less weird to Roman readers). Simon hides away in underground tunnels but eventually realizes his food is running out and comes out and gets caught. This sounds very like what Josephus did before but in his case is "just retribution for the cruelty shown to his fellow-citizens under his own merciless despotism." (I guess Josephus points out that the difference here is that Simon put people to death for doing the same thing before, whereas presumably Josephus didn't.)
Meanwhile, Jews in Antioch, Syria are having issues. There are a lot of Jews in Syria at this time. This (high-ranking Jewish) guy Antiochus, right after war is declared (and Vespasian sailed for Syria), says there's a conspiracy to burn down the city. Jews who don't convert as proof of their non-conspirator nature are killed. Guess who gets to become dictator of all the remaining Jews. Anyway, that was obviously a bit of a while back, but then an actual fire breaks out and Antiochus blames the Jews. But it turns out to be criminals being pressed for their debts who thought that if they burnt the market and the public records they could not be pursued for repayment, which, okay, I honestly think is kind of hilarious, or would be if it hadn't got blamed on other people. Way to make things worse, guys.
Meanwhile, Vespasian goes to Rome and everyone loves him. Josephus also talks about Vespasian having an "outstanding military record," to which the footnote says, "now that the contquest of Judaea could be added to his military achievements in Britain in AD43-4... over a quarter of a century earlier," which I also kind of think is blackly hilarious.
Meanwhile (Josephus really does seem to jump around a lot in this chapter! I guess there's a lot of stuff happening in different places) Germans are revolting. Because they hate Romans but also they are incapable of any sober assessment and ready to rush into action with minimal chance of success. (Sorry,
Titus' triumphal procession goes through Antioch, and they ask if they can expel their Jews. He says no, because "their own country, to which as Jews they would have to be repatriated, has been destroyed, and no other place would now accept them." Ouch. That's... ouch. Anyway, he leaves and goes through Jerusalem again and is sad. he would never have wished the terrible consequences of their punishment to be the public face of his character. This does hit interestingly if we assume, as
Josephus: Now let's talk about Machaerus.
Me: What? Why?
Helpful footnote: The focus of the narrative shifts back to Judaea and the military operations to eradicate remaining areas of rebellion. These campaigns involved considerable Roman forces, but, since the emepror had already proclaimed victory over Judaea, Roman propaganda was silent about them, and they are known only from the account by Josephus in Bellum Judaicum. The description of the triumph and celebrations in Rome would have worked well as the culmination of the history of the war, and it is puzzling that Josephus chose to continue the story --
Me: That's what I'm saying!
Selena: Yes, but what about Masada?
Helpful footnote: -- Ahem -- Josephus had noted already at 4.555 that Herodium, Masada, and Machaerus remained in rebel hands in May AD 69 after other fortresses had been captured and the way was clear to attack Jerusalem.
Me: Okay.
Anyway... the new legate to Judaea, Bassus, is sent to attack the Machaerus fortress and take it out. Josephus tells us cool natural history of the place, including the root Baaras with demon-expulsion properties but which you can't touch without dying. (So you pick it by geting a dog to touch it instead. Then it's OK.) Anyway, this dude Eleazar gets carried off by the Romans, and Bassus convinces them to surrender the fortress in exchange for the guy's life. Eleazar asks them to and also to save their own lives as well by submitting to the power and the destiny of Rome -- and the Jews uncharacteristically gave in to compassion -- mm. Josephus definitely has no feelings himself about this whole thing. Yes. Anyway. I am unsure as to what happens next because Josephus needs to give me more pronoun antecedents, but I think there are non-Jewish (?) people in the lower town who learn of the surrender thing and they decide to run for freedom. Those people get away, but everyone else gets massacred except for the people Bassus made the agreement with. Anyway... there's another bunch of escapees from Jerusalem and Machaerus at the forest called Jardes, and Bassus cuts down the trees and kills all the Jews. Titus takes all Jewish land for his own private state.
In Vespasian's fourth year as emperor: the governor of Syria (Paetus) says the king of Commagene, Antiochus (a differnt one from above), wants to revolt. So Paetus puts it down and Antiochus runs away, eventually ending up in Rome and reconciling with Caesar. Also the Alani go on a raid. I have not the faintest idea what this bit has to do with anything, and neither do the notes.
OK, now Bassus dies and is replaced as governor by Flavius Silva. Silva marches against Masada, occupied by the Sicarii and headed by another guy named Eleazar. We get some history of Masada, which Herod put a lot of supplies into to prepare against Cleopatra (that floozy, as we've discussed -- Antony's "miserably slavish infatuation" for her mentioned) and/or the Jewish people wanting to depose him (neither of these actually having happened). After some back and forth, Silva decides to set fire to the wall, which almost goes badly for the Romans but then the wind changes and the fire engulfs the wall. Eleazar decides all must die (and of course makes a speech about it). I'll write a separate comment about that, in case
That's Masada. Some of the Sicarii end up in Alexandria and start another revolutionary movement there, which ends up with them captured. Vespasian says to demolish the temple in Alexandria that
Re: Recap
Date: 2026-05-05 04:29 am (UTC)The difference between Simon and Josephus: with you there, presumably that Simon had lots of people executed for doing the very same thing. And of course, according to Josephus (with the caveat that implies), having in general led a despotic terrorist regime over frightened Jerusalem citizens until the end of the siege.
This last book also contains more mentions of the war prisoners being executed in the context of games. We’ve gotten so used to the Roman Games via media over saturation in their depiction, but it is worth pointing out this particular “entertainment” was and is extremely dehumanizing even in a world that accepts the death penalty as standard and just. And alas I suspect were someone to reintroduce it, a la The Hunger Games, many of today’s people would totally go for it.
Putting off my cynical hat again, I’ll say more about Masada in reply to your other comment, but let me add here that the very fact that one fortress kept holding out after Vespasian had already declared victory must have been indeed majorly embarassing from a Roman pov, especially given Vespasian is still new on the throne and that his only justification for the job lies in his military strength, and the fictionalized depiction in the “Masada” tv series gets some drama from this, in terms of the pressure Silva is under. I’ve been to Masada, and when you’re on the top, you can actually still see the outlines of the three Roman camps.
Re: Recap
Date: 2026-05-05 03:43 pm (UTC)Yes, absolutely :/
Young Domitian only having to appear for any conspiring Germans to collapse and change their plans, by contrast, was hilarious... Josephus is laying it on really thick there in his attempt to flatter all three Flavians, methinks.
Yes! :)
I’ve been to Masada, and when you’re on the top, you can actually still see the outlines of the three Roman camps.
Oh wow.
Re: Recap
Date: 2026-05-05 11:05 pm (UTC)Re: Recap
Date: 2026-05-07 03:06 am (UTC)Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-04 03:42 am (UTC)Another bit: "Let us die unenslaved by the enemy, and let us all, together with our children and wives, leave this life as free men. This is what our law prescribes, this is what our wives and children implore us to do." Okay, now that I know from
I also think this bit is interesting. "Despite the warmth of family affection which was still strong in all of them, reason -- that this was the best option for their loved ones -- triumphed over emotion." Mm-hmm.
Re: Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-05 04:40 am (UTC)Otoh: it’s a mass suicide, and whether the kids, for starters, were all eager to get killed is highly dubious. As you point out, a woman hiding herself with her children is the living counter example to Eleazar really convincing everyone. And as far as we’ve heard, Jewish law would forbid this. So yes, I think it’s entirely possible Josephus means it as an indictement of Eleazar as a villain, but knows it will be read as such only by his Jewish readers.
Re: Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-05 03:53 pm (UTC)Re: Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-05 11:06 pm (UTC)Re: Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-07 03:07 am (UTC)Re: Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-06 07:22 am (UTC)Re: Eleazar's speech praising suicide
Date: 2026-05-07 04:10 am (UTC)The Temple of Onias
Date: 2026-05-04 03:44 am (UTC)I'm just going to cut and paste Josephus' whole thing about the temple of Onias here. (I don't actually have a ton to say myself, but maybe others will??)
Wary of the Jews’ constant appetite for revolution, and fearing the possibility of another concentration of Jewish resistance which could draw in others too, Caesar instructed Lupus to demolish the temple which the Jews possessed in the district named after Onias.
422 This is a place in Egypt which was settled and given its name under the following circumstances. 423 Onias the son of Simon was one of the chief priests at Jerusalem. He had to make his escape when Antiochus, the king of Syria, launched his campaign against the Jews, and he came to Alexandria, where Ptolemy, a sworn enemy of Antiochus, gave him a friendly welcome. Onias told Ptolemy that he could bring the whole Jewish nation into alliance with him if he would agree to a proposal he had to make. 424 The king promised to do whatever was in his power, and Onias then asked him for permission to build a temple somewhere in Egypt where God could be worshipped in the ancestral Jewish tradition. 425 This, he said, would make the Jews yet more hostile to Antiochus, who had sacked their temple in Jerusalem, and more friendly to himself: large numbers would flock to him to enjoy freedom of worship.
426 Ptolemy was persuaded by this proposal, and granted Onias a site twenty miles from Memphis in the borough of Heliopolis. 427 Here Onias built a fort, and then constructed his temple out of huge stones, not on the pattern of the Jerusalem temple, but more like a tower, rising to a height of 90 feet. 428 He designed the altar, though, to replicate the one in his home country, and equipped his temple with similar fittings, except for the design of the lampstand: 429 instead of a fixed stand he had a lamp made out of gold which gave its light suspended from a golden chain. 430 The whole precinct was enclosed by a wall of baked brick, with gateways built of stone. The king also granted Onias a large estate to generate an income which would provide ample maintenance for the priests and many other of the requisites for the worship of God. 431 In all this, though, there was nothing altruistic in Onias’ motive. Still harbouring a grudge for his exile, his aim was to set up as a rival to the Jerusalem Jews, and he thought that the establishment of this temple would act as a magnet to attract the ordinary people away from them. 432 And there had been an ancient prediction made some 600 years earlier by the prophet called Isaiah, who foretold the provision of this temple in Egypt by a man of Jewish birth. So that was how the temple came to be built.
433 On receipt of Caesar’s written instructions Lupus, the governor of Alexandria, proceeded to the temple, and after removing some of the offerings dedicated there shut up the building. 434 Lupus died shortly afterwards and was replaced in office by Paulinus. He stripped the temple completely of its offerings, threatening the priests with severe consequences if they did not produce them all, forbade any access to the precinct by intending worshippers, 435 then locked the gates and made the whole site a prohibited area, so not even a vestige of divine worship was now left in the place. 436 The time from the building of the temple to its closure was 343 years.
Re: The Temple of Onias
Date: 2026-05-04 01:51 pm (UTC)https://www.sefaria.org/Menachot.109b.10
The Gemara in Menachos 109b brings two versions of the story of Onias establishing his temple, neither of which wholly matches Josephus's version, but there are consistencies and ways you could triangulate the different versions. Of course none of the people telling these stories were around when Onias lived, Onias was some two hundred years before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and not long before the Maccabee revolt. So some intersection of religious sectarianism, political infighting, and personal rivalries led to the establishment of this temple which was not accepted by mainstream Jews in Israel but clearly had some sectarian acceptance.
The fact that the Talmud brings two completely contradictory versions of the story suggests the Rabbis were not sure what to do with this text, and the debate in Masechet Megillah that
But in the wake of the destruction of the Temple and the complete renegotiation of Jewish ritual practice, you can understand why there might be some who longed for the continuity presented by the Egyptian temple in terms of preserving the sacrificial rite.
Of course this is not the path R" Yochanan be Zakkai and his reconstituted Sanhedrin took the Jewish people. They centered rituals where prayer replaced sacrificial worship. My sense has always been that this was a transition that was already somewhat in the cards even before the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem and there are parts of the Onias story that support that, such as the narrative of High Priest Shimon being the last generation to use the name of God in the Yom Kippur service. The sacrificial rite was becoming less effective and central and especially to Pharisaic Judaism it was not the main power base. But Josephus's version highlights the other dimension. R"Yochanan Ben Zakkai emphasized replacement of the sacrificial rite because after the destruction of the Temple it was not safe to offer sacrifices to the God of the Jews even in private altars, because the Romans saw this as rebellious behavior. So the Jews had to find a ritual practice that was sustaining and connected to historical practice while threading the needle of not looking like they were trying to reconstitute the Jerusalemite rite.
Re: The Temple of Onias
Date: 2026-05-04 10:53 pm (UTC)I had always imagined R' Yohanan making a radical break with the way Judaism and pretty much any other religion worked. But perhaps the number of diaspora communities (or just people far from Jerusalem) who couldn't get to the temple very often would inevitably have pushed towards a decentralized version of the religion? Maybe if the temple wasn't destroyed, we'd end up with something like the Muslims with their Hajj--- a trip everyone makes once or twice in a lifetime, but the lived experience of the religion happens elsewhere? Or what do you think is the reason why sacrifice fell out of fashion?
Re: The Temple of Onias
Date: 2026-05-05 03:28 pm (UTC)Of course this is not the path R" Yochanan be Zakkai and his reconstituted Sanhedrin took the Jewish people. They centered rituals where prayer replaced sacrificial worship. My sense has always been that this was a transition that was already somewhat in the cards even before the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem and there are parts of the Onias story that support that, such as the narrative of High Priest Shimon being the last generation to use the name of God in the Yom Kippur service. The sacrificial rite was becoming less effective and central and especially to Pharisaic Judaism it was not the main power base.
Ooh. This is really interesting (as well as not something I would have ever figured out for myself). Like
But Josephus's version highlights the other dimension. R"Yochanan Ben Zakkai emphasized replacement of the sacrificial rite because after the destruction of the Temple it was not safe to offer sacrifices to the God of the Jews even in private altars, because the Romans saw this as rebellious behavior.
*nods*
Re: The Temple of Onias
Date: 2026-05-07 01:11 am (UTC)I don't know! But I agree, it's fascinating. It seems pretty implausible that a would-be High Priest wouldn't be instructed on the vestments he had to wear. The vestments are specified in the Torah, he'd have seen the High Priest wearing them in previous years, and anyway, as we discussed with respect to the Zealots' stooge priest, it seems like the families who were of High-Priestly rank had their sons educated for the position. As
Re: The Temple of Onias
Date: 2026-05-07 03:09 am (UTC)It really does seem like it, with the two contradictory stories that end up in opposite places with the two brothers, but I don't know what I'm supposed to learn from it either? That good things can come from not-so-great beginnings, and vice versa?
no subject
Date: 2026-05-08 09:16 pm (UTC)I'd be happy with anything, but here are some suggestions of books I personally have not read but might want to, along with the themes they'd carry forward:
* Against Verres (mistreatment of provincials)
* The Golden Ass (religion)
* The Peloponnesian War (war)
* The Enchiridion of Epictetus (human misery)
no subject
Date: 2026-05-09 12:00 am (UTC)I am cross now because I am fairly positive that I have Graves' translation of The Golden Ass somewhere and I cannot find it, or at least it's not in either of the two places on the bookshelf that it would be sensible for it to be. Anyway that would be my vote for the next one, partially because I'm now interested in Robert Graves again via WWI, and partially because that book was a gift which I either have not read but should have, or read but remember absolutely nothing about it including whether I had actually read it (most likely this one), and either way it would be nice if I had both read it and remembered something about it.
I'd also love to do one or more of the plays sometime -- I had a bunch recommended to me which I can't remember right now but which sound really fun, and we could get different translations and compare.
no subject
Date: 2026-05-10 04:06 pm (UTC)* Greek tragedy: Aeschylus (or if you're
* Aristophanes: Pretty much the sole survivor of the Old Comedy. Still really funny, unlike his successors, the...
* New Comedy: encompassing a bunch of Greek authors but also most of the surviving Latin comedies. Direct ancestor of those Shakespeare plays where people keep mistaking lookalikes for one another (notably Two Gentlemen of Verona but also bits of Twelfth Night and so on), and to the musical A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Full of cornball jokes and stock characters; tends to come across as a bit tedious to modern readers.
* Roman tragedy: Ancestral to Titus Andronicus, Tis Pity She's a Whore, and stuff like that. I haven't read any of these, but from what I've heard: oceans of gore, heartfelt speeches on all sides, no piece of scenery unchewed.
no subject
Date: 2026-05-12 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2026-05-09 05:43 am (UTC)Of books I have read but would not mind rereading:
- Ted Hughes: Tales from Ovid. (I.e. his selection from Ovid's Metamorphoses , which I love)
- The Oresteia (i.e. Aischylos' three plays about the House of Atreus), since Cahn asked about plays
- Suetonius: Twelve Caesars (the new Tom Holland translation which I was kindly gifted last Christmas) (sensationalist gossip!)
I'll probably think of more, but must rush off now!
no subject
Date: 2026-05-12 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2026-05-12 01:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2026-05-12 03:26 pm (UTC)I think my top votes right now are a) Golden Ass, since it sounds like all three of us would be interested in it and have not read it (except for possibly me?? lol) and b) Oresteia, since I have not personally read it but it does seem like one of those things I Need to read (I suppose I'm spoiled for a lot of it anyway, haha), and both you and
Yuletide?
Date: 2026-08-26 02:28 pm (UTC)For starters, what to call this RPF?
"Flavian Dynasty RPF":
Advantage: makes it easy to nominate not just the three Flavian Emperors but also the neglected by historical fictional ladies - Caenis, Berenice, Domitia (Lucia in Feuchtwanger's novel), or Titus' daughter Julia (from his early pre Berenice marriage) whom gossipy Suetonius claims has had an affair with Uncle Domitian later on and dies of an abortion, but whom the Domitian defender in my circle argues might simply have been close to him (due to Titus being considerably older than Domitian, Julia and Domitian weren't THAT much apart in age) because they were in Rome during the year of the Four Emperors when everything was crazy and lethal power struggles and they were youngsters and Vespasian and Titus were off in Judaea. So, lots of potential for more than one story.
(Oh, and of course Josephus could also get nominated, but then it will be inevitably a Feuchtwanger crossover if one of us two would include him.)
Disadvantage: The Flavians are just less popular than the crazy Julio-Claudians. And people would have to do their own research.
LJ Trafford's Four Emperors Book series (see my review of same here.
Advantages: Covers guess what, is a canon of four historical novels and thus available to everyone. I really like the main characters, who are the (mostly enslaved and freedmen and -women) administrative staff on the Palatine keeping the Empire running while Nero dying in the first novel kicks off the year, with the four Emperors themselves being important supporting characters. Captures the insanity of that year very well. Caenis is an important character in in the last two books.
Disadvantages: Titus doesn't show up at all (he's only seethingly talked about by Domitian), and thus it would be a bit cheating to write my detective teenage Titus story based on this canon, even as backstory. And you haven't read it at all. And there are FOUR novels to go through, even though they are fun.
Court of Nero RPF:
Advantages: limits the time frame even further. (Less necessary research for the easily intimidated.) Everyone has at least a vague idea of who Nero was. My teenage Titus story would fit, but so would a story tackling, say, Poppea as a patron of the Jews, aka the aspect of her Josephus writes about while Tacitus and Suetonius only feature her as an evil femme fatale. Or, hey, maybe there are Nero defenders wanting to write on how he didn't burn Rome? (Or fiddle.) Or: any story featuring Agrippina the Younger would fit right in. Agrippina has the Emma Southon biography to use as research which is immensely readable.
Disadvantages: Maybe anything Nero feels overdone?
Thoughts?
Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-08-26 06:24 pm (UTC)"Four Emperors Book series" has the problem that I haven't read it, as you note :) Though I could try to read it before signups. Then I'll proabbly want fic on the administrative staff, lol!
Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-08-26 07:14 pm (UTC)We could nominate Britannicus himself, I guess, with the justification of him being young Titus’ bff, I guess, but the only story involving Britannicus that I can think of is the one involving his death, at least under the header “Flavian Dynasty”. (Wheras Julio-Claudian Dynasty would justify a Britannicus pov on, say, the craziness of growing up with Messalina as your mother and Claudius as your Dad and then cousin Lucius becomes brother Nero and Agrippina your stepmother etc.)
I don’t think it’s within the rules, but I would be tempted to nominate “Dancing Boy (OC)” , because unlike Josephus, Suetonius tells us Titus had these in his Prince Hal phase and then bade them farewell when becoming Emperor, and again, a Dancing Boy pov of Vespasian’s reign might be v.v. Interesting, but alas Suetonius does not name one particular individual. (Unlike in his earlier bios because Messalina did have a favourite dancer as a lover, Pallas, in his Claudius biography.)
And then there is Josephus himself, but I would find it very hard to write Flavius Josephus without writing him as Feuchtwanger’s Joseph. With that caveat, there is of course a lot of potential, especially for writers willing to go a bit grim: was there a moment, after Vespasian finally decided to go for broke, where he wondered what would happen to him if Vespasian went the way of the previous three short lived Emperors? Whether he’d end up like many another Jewish captive (either as as a working slave somewhere or in the arena) instead of being a validated prophetic writer? Did he try to exculpate Titus from burning the Temple as much as he could because Titus wanted Berenike to believe this, as that one essay theorized?
Possibilities not for me and you, but potential interested parties, which we could nominate for same: the two Plinys, the elder and the younger, if anyone fancies a Vesuvius and Pompeii story. (That happened during the reign of Titus, remember.)
Crossover possibilities: with Lindsay Davis’ Dididus Falco mysteries, of course. But as this is a whole separate canon, it’s not a request to make, just a “if you want to give Falco a cameo, go ahead” type of comment.
Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-08-26 08:59 pm (UTC)Eh, we could nominate Flavius Josephus and then see what people came up with, if anything. I don't think anyone is going to be weirded out by you writing Feuchtwanger!Joseph. We could also nominate Flavius Josephus' First Wife, under the proviso that she is named under that title in his writing as a war captive.
But yeah, you're not getting Dancing Boy through :)
Oh, that's a good point about Britannicus, he would be an interesting one.
Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-08-27 08:31 am (UTC)Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-08-27 04:48 pm (UTC)Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-09-30 07:58 pm (UTC)Re: Yuletide?
Date: 2026-10-01 08:30 am (UTC)