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The last book!

Last week: Astrological phenomena and the star of Bethlehem. Messianic (?) prophecy about Vespasian. Brutality of the siege, and discussion of the law of war protecting prisoners from the enemy army (or lack thereof). Imperator.

This week: Book 7. Wrapping up of the war. The Masada fortress and group suicide (which I think is interesting to think about given the discussion we had a few books back). The temple of Onias. (Dedicated commment threads for both of these below, for anyone who wants to join in!)

Yay book club, thank you everyone!
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Last week:Lament for the destroyed trees and landscape around Jerusalem. A woman eats her own child. More discussion of Titus and whether he wanted to spare the Temple or not. The Carthage and Alexandria precedents for Romans treating defeated opponents. Torching a temple = REALLY BAD LUCK. The timetable of the siege of Jerusalem set by Vespasian's ascent as emperor.

This week: The aftermath of the burning of the temple, and the end of the siege of Jerusalem. Still some pretty awful stuff.

Next week: Okay, going to try to read all of book 7! We'll see how this goes.
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Last week: Sieges are awful. Josephus tells us that Titus really totally felt bad about all the awfulness (even though he didn't stop them) and there is a theory that maybe by "us" he meant "Berenice." Titus had dancing boys?? (Josephus does not mention any, sadly.) Does Samuel the Lamanite in the Book of Mormon owe anything to Josephus speaking truth to the wicked? Unclear. Talmud on the Sages vs. the Zealots as an interesting correlated story to Josephus. Poppea's complexity including both an interest in (conversion to?) Judaism as well as being ruthless; comparison to Constantine's much better press.

This week: The temple is destroyed.

Next week: End of Book 6.
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Last week: Titus saving the day single-handedly as a millenium-old trope. The synoptic gospels foreshadowing these events, and discussion of the abomination of desolation. The Yom Kippur service description of the priest in his vestments. How much Titus might have intended the destruction of Jerusalem, and when, and how much that question may be different from how Josephus feels like he needs to justify it? A mention of R. Yochanan ben Zakkai, which all of you should definitely tell me more about :D

This week: Jerusalem is under siege. It's quite awful for those under siege, what with famine inside the city and getting crucified by Romans if they try to escape. Titus and Josephus continue to be blameless and awesome.

Next week: First half of Book 6: "...from its rebuilding by Haggai in the second year of the reign of Cyrus to its capture under Vespasian was 639 years and 45 days" (270).
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Happy day-after-Easter!

Last week: Eyeliner shows that the Zealot faction is really bad! (No, really!) The Year of the Four Emperors, and those emperors discussed. Nero and his end. Lord Hervey of Frederician salon makes a surprise appearance!

This week: Titus attacks Jerusalem, but the factions have already done a lot of the work for him...

Next week: Rest of book 5!
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Last week: Mass suicide (canonical), Constantinople (not present in canon), pro-surrender factions, the translation of "bandits/terrorists/troublemakers" (apparently "lestes" in Greek). Anyone familiar with the Talmud want to weigh in about the question of marrying a raped-by-a-Roman woman in Jewish society?

This week: Jerusalem continues to be torn apart by various factions. Simon son of Gioras makes his appearance. The Year of the Four Emperors happens, with Vespasian finally making his bid for emperor.

Next week: Half of book 5? To where? From [personal profile] selenak: until the tale of Kastor duping Titus has concluded: “…for they believed nothing but that their opponents had thrown themselves into the fire."
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Last week: Josephus really hypes Vespasian up! Galilee is also very nice! Discussion of Josephus' prophecy of Vespasian, both in Josephus and in Feuchtwanger's novelization, with detours into Antonia and Caenis.

This week: Internal strife in Jerusalem! Lots of internal strife!

Next week: Last half of book 4.
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Last week: The Jews are basically in an abusive relationship with Rome and have no good options; they choose the particular bad option of picking a war with Rome that they can't win. The Romans are terrible. Also continuing discussion here about Britannicus, Messalina, and the Praetorians.

This week: Vespasian comes down like a ton of bricks. That whole !!!! part of Josephus happens, where he gets stuck in the cave with a bunch of others and invents and wins the Josephus problem (well, in the text it says they draw lots, so he doesn't actually really cite what developed into the problem) (*) and surrenders to the Romans once he and another guy are the only ones left, and prophesies to Vespasian that he will become emperor. ([personal profile] selenak: Is it Feuchtwanger's invention to add the nomenclature of Messiah in there too? That definitely... upped the ante.)

(I'll comment more on this tomorrow -- I got done with the reading late and obviously barely got this written.)

Next week: first part of book 4, to "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment" (Josephus describing the Zealotes as the worst!) (388)

(*) E. wanted to know what I was reading, so I told her about the Josephus problem, and she said, "Real-world applications of math!"
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Last week: Lots of discussion of various contemporary Roman emperors and their families: Claudius, Agrippina, Nero, Britannicus. Quinctilius Varus and Arminius make an appearance as well. Also Josephus wants to tell you ALL about the Essenes, and none of us knows why but maybe we will find out sometime in the future?? (ugh, I haven't finished replying to comments yet on this either, sorry! -- hopefully will get to that tomorrow)

This week: The Jewish war starts! It's a mess. We do finally meet our hero Josephus, who is just the most heroic, clever, and brave guy. (Probably devilishly handsome too, although this is admittedly not in the text.)

Next week: where shall we read to in Book 3? ETA: All of book 3 for this week!
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Last week: Discussion on how Herod stacked up against various Roman emperors in terms of body count of his nearest and dearest; how Friedrich Wilhelm might hear the Josephus text; Herod throwing money around; Cleopatra!

This week: ...uhhhh there was a lot going on and I haven't actually finished the reading yet *ducks* -- I am doing that right now and I should most likely be able to comment tomorrow. (I don't anticipate this being a problem again for at least two more months, and most likely not then either; this was a confluence of various time sinks that doesn't usually happen all at the same time.) But I wanted to go ahead and get the post up because I know you guys have read it... (ETA: have finished the reading now :P :) )

Next week: finishing up Book 2!
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Last week: Some really interesting discussions on (among other things) Caesar Augustus, the temple in Egypt, and the destruction of the temple (in Jerusalem) as divine punishment and also free will.

This week: More Herod! Definitely went quite a bit faster than last week! Featuring lots and lots of family drama... the kind that includes a ton of bloodshed. I'll talk more about it in comments.

Next week: [personal profile] selenak can you give us a halfway point for Book 2? It looks a bit shorter but I'm also going to be crunched for time next week (and definitely won't be able to post until Sunday) so half a book is what it's going to have to be! ETA: Death of Emperor Claudius!
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I am super not promising to always have this on Saturday, but yay long weekend!

Last week: I know some of you reading this study Talmud -- Josephus asserts at the very beginning that the "sufferings of the Jews" (presumably, in context of Josephus' writing, Titus destroying the temple, etc. though we won't get there for a while) are their own fault: "no foreign power is to blame." It was pointed out that the Talmud may (?) have its own opinion(s) as to whether the destruction of the Temple and the resulting diaspora was divine punishment? And regardless of the former, may also blame Titus? (I also don't know yet, because we haven't gotten there yet and won't for a while, whether Josephus himself thinks it's divine punishment or just plain old temporal consequences. My vague recollection of Feuchtwanger's Josephus is that he was thinking more of the latter, which is also very much borne out by this week's reading.)

This week: First half of Book 1 (Ch 22 / Par 444):

Okay, I must say the first part of this was a slog for me -- flitting between a lot of people I didn't know. Good thing we have this reading group or I might not have got through it. As it was, I had to take copious notes to even make a stab at writing up a summary (I won't promise I'll do this every week, but I had a little extra time and quite frankly I knew I wouldn't remember who any of these people were next week if I didn't), and I'm going to put them in comments so this post doesn't get super long. At least Josephus felt it was "inappropriate to go into the early history of the Jews," which would have made it really long. Anyway, it got substantially more interesting once Herod showed up!

Next week: Finish book 1.
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This week: All right! As a preface to Josephus Book Club, I am just reading the preface this week and we will do a bigger chunk starting this next week (see below). The preface is just a few pages long (I'm reading up until what in Oxford is paragraph 30, "All of these contents are set forth in seven books... I shall now begin my narrative as indicated at the start of my summary.")

I'm sure you all will have deeper things to say than I do about this, but wow I am just amused by how Josephus just starts out pulling no punches about how annoying and inferior he thinks the other historians are. (The footnote to The historians of this war fall into two categories... hearsay... or distort the facts namechecks Justus, who featured prominently as a frenemy in Feuchtwanger's Josephus trilogy.) I do like his logic in saying, hey, if you want to make the Romans look good, why make the Jewish side look feeble? Also his logic in saying, hey, actually, it makes more sense to be writing contemporary accounts for which one has eyewitnesses, as opposed to writing about ancient history "as if the ancient historians had failed to give their own accounts sufficient finesse," lol. (Although I guess that is what academic historians do!)

Titus Caesar is also namechecked, lookin' good.

The footnotes also say that historiographical writers generally claimed impartiality, so Josephus talking about his personal feelings of sorrow here is atypical, which I thought was interesting.

In fact, looking over the whole sweep of history, I would say that the sufferings of the Jews have been greater than those of any other nation -- and no foreign power is to blame. Oooooof. I guess that's a good tagline to pique interest in the book, though...

(I'm really glad I read Feuchtwanger's Josephus books first to orient myself, though!)

Next week: We'll start Book 1! [personal profile] selenak advised that we read up to Herod the Great's killing his favorite wife. My Oxford edition has "verse"/paragraph numbers but not chapter numbers as selenak's has, but I think (selenak, please let me know if this is incorrect) in my edition the idea is to read up to paragraph 443/444: Maddened by unbridled jealousy, Herod ordered the immediate execution of them both. Remorse quickly followed rage: his anger subsided, and his love was rekindled. The heat of his desire for her was so intense that he could not believe she was dead...

WELL ALL RIGHT THEN. I can see we have lots of sensationalistic gossip ahead of us!
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So people keep giving me books to read and I have been so way behind on posting about them, so uh I'm just going to post something quick about a few, even though they deserve much longer posts.

-The Girl from Rawblood (Catriona Ward) - 4/5 - this one part of the Catriona Ward kick which is all the fault of [personal profile] rachelmanija. I really liked this one! I felt that Sundial, while compelling, also didn't invest me overmuch in the characters, except for Callie, and that took a while -- but this book I felt both had compelling characters and a deep compassion for all of them. I read this in conjunction with [personal profile] rachelmanija over chat (we'd make sure we were synched for each chapter) which was super fun, although it did mean that occasionally we'd figure out plot twists ahead of time that I'd never have figured out on my own (since we were having twice the amount of epiphanies/making twice the number of connections that we would have by ourselves, as well as discussing after every chapter instead of my barrelling straight through). But also ALL THE WARNINGS (most flagrantly, content note for early-20th-century insane asylums and also there is a very graphic bit with rabbit dissection that both of us skipped -- lots of other terrible stuff too, but those were the ones that were so bad that I, who have basically no triggers or squicks, flinched). This was also a good book to read with someone else because we could stop ourselves from reading chapters late at night. (...There are definitely chapters you don't want to have read late at night and be trying to sleep after reading. It doesn't have a terrible awful no-good ending -- in fact, there's a lot of grace to the ending -- but the book itself is a Gothic horror book.) [personal profile] rachelmanija's much better review is here.

-Josephus, The Jew of Rome, Josephus and the Emperor (Lion Feuchtwanger) - 4/5 - [personal profile] selenak mentioned these as part of her never-ending quest to feed me books and history I am ignorant of, and I was like, wait, the Josephus of Antiquities of the Jews? Sign me up! (We read bits of Josephus in my college Bible class, and I'd always meant to read more of his work.) I found these quite interesting -- Josephus, the titular and main character of the saga, had a much more interesting life than I had realized (I knew basically nothing about him except that he'd written that one book), and Feuchtwanger makes him a complicated character who can sometimes be frankly unlikeable at times, but whom I found always fascinating. Feuchtwanger was Jewish, and these books were written in the 1930's and 1940's... much of the books is concerned with the Jews of that time and their relationship with the Roman Empire, both as a whole (e.g., the wars, as well as various Roman policy) and in individual cases (Josephus himself being the prime example of someone whose life, as Feuchtwanger portrayed it, was continually clashing between his Jewish identity and his Roman identity).

It also brings up nascent Christianity and Josephus' investigation into Christianity's roots (which [personal profile] selenak told me is the only reason why Josephus' work was saved in the first place, as opposed to his rival Justus, who is a minor but important character in the book (I hilariously was convinced that if there was a fandom for this book, Justus/Josephus would be the juggernaut ship -- there are a lot of very shippy tropes and language surrounding their relationship) whom we only know about because Josephus mentioned him in his books). And at one point it raises the question, what's the role of deceit in religion? In the sense of, is it okay if a religion (Christianity, in this case) is founded on a lie? Or on stories that may have some truth but other parts of it are not truthful? (Uh, doubly relevant for me, which is why it struck me so profoundly even though it's a quite small part of the book.) Anyway -- there's a lot going on in these books, more than the... margin of this post will contain. I haven't even gotten to the great plot thread with my fave Lucia in the third book! :P Anyway, very interestingly chewy books, I thought! Perhaps more interesting to someone who is already interested in the subject material (I was interested in both Josephus and the meta questions Feuchtwanger brings up).

(His book The Oppermanns is supposed to be re-released this week in English. (The link goes to a 2001 print version but I believe the print is being rereleased this week with the e-book.) This is a contemporary novel about a German Jewish family during Hitler's rise to power. I'm going to check it out, when I surface from Yuletide-related reading...)

-Luckenbooth (Jenni Fagan) - 3+/5. This was an odd and interesting book, courtesy of a rec by [personal profile] cenozoicsynapsid. I am not quite sure I liked it so much as I admired it -- it's a story of, well, various events that take place in a single building in Edinburgh during the 20th century, in a sort of dystopian-magic AU of our world, and it's doing some interesting things structurally, with each of three sections being the weaving together of stories of three different sets of people in slightly different but overlapping eras (each section is in a distinct time era and has its own arc): so, nine different sets of people. This sometimes worked well and sometimes not as well -- some sets were interesting stories, both for the way they intersected with the through-line and in their own right (the medium! the miner who is afraid of daylight!), though there was at least one set (perhaps not surprisingly, the one with William Burroughs -- if any of the others were people I should have heard of, I don't know it) where I just didn't care about the set of people in those chapters. This was definitely one of those books where I had no idea what was going on for a while (I'm still not sure I figured out everything), and I do enjoy that. I also feel like it was odd enough that I'm not sure I recommend it! But I'll probably put it on my Hugo ballot, because it needs more challenging material and less The Same Five Authors Over And Over Again, not that I am bitter. This one also has all the warnings! graphic murder, rape, etc.

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