The Jewish War: Book 3
Mar. 15th, 2026 10:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnLast week: The Jews are basically in an abusive relationship with Rome and have no good options; they choose the particular bad option of picking a war with Rome that they can't win. The Romans are terrible. Also continuing discussion here about Britannicus, Messalina, and the Praetorians.
This week: Vespasian comes down like a ton of bricks. That whole !!!! part of Josephus happens, where he gets stuck in the cave with a bunch of others and invents and wins the Josephus problem (well, in the text it says they draw lots, so he doesn't actually really cite what developed into the problem) (*) and surrenders to the Romans once he and another guy are the only ones left, and prophesies to Vespasian that he will become emperor. (selenak: Is it Feuchtwanger's invention to add the nomenclature of Messiah in there too? That definitely... upped the ante.)
(I'll comment more on this tomorrow -- I got done with the reading late and obviously barely got this written.)
Next week: first part of book 4, to "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment" (Josephus describing the Zealotes as the worst!) (388)
(*) E. wanted to know what I was reading, so I told her about the Josephus problem, and she said, "Real-world applications of math!"
This week: Vespasian comes down like a ton of bricks. That whole !!!! part of Josephus happens, where he gets stuck in the cave with a bunch of others and invents and wins the Josephus problem (well, in the text it says they draw lots, so he doesn't actually really cite what developed into the problem) (*) and surrenders to the Romans once he and another guy are the only ones left, and prophesies to Vespasian that he will become emperor. (
selenak: Is it Feuchtwanger's invention to add the nomenclature of Messiah in there too? That definitely... upped the ante.) (I'll comment more on this tomorrow -- I got done with the reading late and obviously barely got this written.)
Next week: first part of book 4, to "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment" (Josephus describing the Zealotes as the worst!) (388)
(*) E. wanted to know what I was reading, so I told her about the Josephus problem, and she said, "Real-world applications of math!"
Emperor vs Messiah
Date: 2026-03-16 07:56 am (UTC)The time had arrived, according to a belief as venerable as it was well established, and which had become general across the East, that a man was fated to come from Judea to rule the world. This prophecy - which subsequent events would reveal to have been foretelling the emergence of a Roman emperor - was interpreted by the Judeans as referring to themselves (...). (T)there was a Judean called Josephus, one of the high-ranking prisoners, who declared in a tone of supreme confidence, even as the chains were going on, that they would soon be struck off on the orders of this same man - who by then would have become Emperor.
So the term "Messiah" isn't used here, but the way Suetonius describes the prophecy itself makes it sound like a bit more than just "the next Emperor". It does sound, to coin a phrase, Messianic. And of course in the novel, the outrageousness of the term "Messiah" is both significant in what it says about Josephus at this point and why Vespasian listens. (And it echoes Justus' earlier comment "God is in Italy" now, which Joseph has subsequently adopted and later forgets who said it first.) (Also Lion Feuchtwanger, writing in the years 1931 -1932, is very aware of both the fact that of course the Christians have interpreted this passage in Suetonius to refer to Jesus and that people declaring themselves or being declared not just a political leader but a saviour are becoming more and more popular in his present.) I'll say a bit more about this part in RL Josephus' writings in my own comments on Book 3. My suggestion for Book 4 is to interrupt at the end of chapter 6 in my translation, which ends with "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment"(Josephus describing the Zealots as the Worst).
Re: Emperor vs Messiah
Date: 2026-03-17 05:12 am (UTC)Impressions of Book 3
Date: 2026-03-16 08:59 am (UTC)=> it's not that Josephus wholesale invents a career for Vespasian - he did serve in Germany and Britain, and did get a good but not stellar reputation from this - , but he exaggarates and presents as complimentary as possible. And of course, it's self flattery as well when he has Vespasian the established Awesome consider defeating him, Josephus, as crucial for the war effort and deem him a worthy enemy. Given that this is the part of the tale where he has to explain why he didn't just get captured (which other leaders also did, including the badmouthed by him John of Gischala later), but changed sides, he naturally goes out of his way to both hammer home he totally didn't do that out of fear and self preservation instinct but because of the inevitability of Roman victory combined with Vespasian's awesomeness and divine blessinng.
(Josephus isn't just being flattering about the Romans, though. He gives Titus an entire speech about what worthy and brave opponents the Jews are later in this book.)
Josephus' landscape descriptions of both Galilee and later the Jordan and Lake Genezareth are yet more cases where I thought that the medieval monks must have gotten hearteyes when reading this, because the Bible doesn't do landscape descriptions, and the majority of medieval monks would not have been able to make the pilgrimage to the Holy Land, but here you have a just one generation post Jesus detailed description of how everything looked. Meanwhile, as much as I osmosed Josephus was despised as a renegade through much of Jewish diaspora history, again all these detailed descriptions of Galilee and Judea must have felt precious to read.
Having watched the tv series Masada (starring Peter O'Toole and Peter Strauss) about the siege of same which is still far ahead of us, I noticed that the scriptwriters and/or the author of the novel it's based on included two elements Josephus actually describes for the siege of Jotapata - the besieged Jews, i.e. Josephus himself, conducting psychological warfare against the Romans by soaking clothes with water and hanging it over the walls to demonstrate they have plenty of it (despite this not being true), and the use of pouches filled with earth to strengthen the gates against the Roman battering rams. (This last one also frequently shows up in other historical shows and movies.)
So the way he tells it, Josephus in book three realises the war can't be won once he arrives in Tiberias but has the problem that everyone else wants him to continue fighting, begging him to save them, writing to Jerusalem asking for either another army to help him or a command to withdraw/surrender doesn't get results, either, and so he ends up in the Jotapata siege and after a brave defense in that cave where by sheer coincidence and certainly not because he fixed it (which in Feuchtwanger he does, and my edition has a footnote my translator also assuming he did) he ends up as one of the last two surviving whereupon he finally is able to leave and surrender to the Romans alive.
Now, as with the Vespasian biography, I don't think he made any of this up from scratch, not least because again, he writes relatively closely to the events with a lot of other survivors able to contradict him if he goes completely against the truth. But of course he slants in his favour and exaggerates. Which probably isn't entirely calculated, either, not least because it must have been an incredibly traumatic experience, followed up by even more traumatic experiences culminating in the destruction of the Temple and the burning of Jerusalem. In order to live with himself, he HAS to believe he tried his best for as long as he could.
Also, let's not forget that before Jotapata, he describes Vespasian conquering places where he kills every male not a child and enslaves the women and children wholesale. Given this, I can believe a lot of Galileans thought surrendering to the Romans was not an option and they had nothing to lose by insisting on a continued fight, and then there is the end time mentality around in this era. Add to this group mentality, and I can see Josephus ending up in a situation much as he describes (without him being the bravest and his defeat crucial to the Roman war effort), i.e. trapped between everyone around them in a "death before surrender" mentality where he is aware they might kill him if he voices the wish to surrender. With the wish to survive finally prompting him to trick the other people hidden in the tunnel into killing themselves, and then, once captured by the Romans, makes his prophecy to ensure he won't be regarded as one more prisoner probably destined for the mines.
Which brings me to the prophecy and what it says about Vespasian and Josephus both. Because with hindsight and the awareness of what is to come - the year of the Four Emperors, and in the longer term the increasing habit of generals to make themselves Emperor - it's very easy to overlook that what Josephus says here, and the fact Vespasian is impressed by it, is absolutely extraordinary. Because within the Prinicipate, i.e. from Augustus to Nero, there hasn't been a succession by general. Every single Emperor so far who succeeded the previous one was related both a mixture of adoption and blood. Not by right of conquest. And Nero is still alive. What's more, he is young, far younger than Vespasian - Nero is only in his early 30s - , and he has proven he can sire children (even though none survived yet). I.e. at this point, there is absolutely no reason to believe Nero will not produce a biological heir, or that he won't outlive Vespasian by decades. If Nero lives, there is no way Vespasian will become Emperor. Not even marriage into the Julio-Claudian family would be an option anymore, because at this point, there aren't any surviving female members around, either. Sure, in theory, the younger Nero could adopt the older Vespasian, but why the hell should he? So to say to Vespasian "you will be Emperor" (never mind Messiah) is basically rolling the dice in a completely crazy way and risking being executed on the spot for high treason, because you as good as declared the need for a quick death of the reigning Emperor. People who were Roman nobility and not Jewish war captives have been executed for far less.
But Vespasian doesn't execute him. Or laughs it off. Vespasian, so far good old mediocre reliable old war horse Vespasian, evidently must have felt seen, must have felt this incredible ambition within himself. Since when? We'll never know. But it's worth pointing out that Vespasian somehow managed to get his oldest son raised as a companion to Britannicus the son of Emperor Claudius. And that his life partner Caenis is the freedwoman and former private secretary of Claudius' mother Antonia. It was Caenis who actually wrote the letter Antonia (daughter of Mark Antony and Octavia) dictated that finally prompted Tiberius to turn against his former bff Sejanus. Caenis had a front row seat to the bloody wiping each other out that the Claudians and Julians did for decades. Once doesn't have to stretch the imagination too much to speculate on Caenis and Vespasian having conversations about what would and could happen if at some point, where were no more Julio-Claudians. But only among themselves because Nero at this point has proven he will kill anyone he feels threatened by, up to and including his mother. He certainly wouldn't hesitate with someone like Vespasian (who has already unintentionally insulted him by falling asleep when Nero was singing).
=> Vespasian keeping Josephus around after such a prophecy was spoken out loud with witnesses to hear who could potentially report it to Nero was also an incredibly risky gamble, and makes me consider that Josephus' command of Jotapata must have been at least partly impressive so that Vespasian doesn't regard him as a total nobody.
Josephus also credits Titus with speaking for him to his father because they were the same age and Titus was supposedly both impressed and felt sorry for him. Aside from again flattery to his current day Flavian patron, I could see the essence of this being true. And Titus had a very personal reason to not feel sorry at all when imagining Nero's sudden demise, given as a teenager he witnessed the death of his friend Britannicus.
Re: Impressions of Book 3
Date: 2026-03-17 05:12 am (UTC)Ha, yes! There are a couple of notes about this in my translation too (to the effect of, Vespasian wasn't actually quite that cool), but as usual it is good for me to be reminded because I forgot.
he naturally goes out of his way to both hammer home he totally didn't do that out of fear and self preservation instinct but because of the inevitability of Roman victory combined with Vespasian's awesomeness and divine blessinng.
Totally!
again all these detailed descriptions of Galilee and Judea must have felt precious to read.
Ahhhh I didn't quite clue into that but I can totally see that!
Also, let's not forget that before Jotapata, he describes Vespasian conquering places where he kills every male not a child and enslaves the women and children wholesale.
it's very easy to overlook that what Josephus says here, and the fact Vespasian is impressed by it, is absolutely extraordinary.
Well, especially for those of us who don't know enough to figure this out :P :) As always thank you for the context!
It was Caenis who actually wrote the letter Antonia (daughter of Mark Antony and Octavia) dictated that finally prompted Tiberius to turn against his former bff Sejanus.
Wait okay you know when you say things like this you have to tell me more!
Aside from again flattery to his current day Flavian patron, I could see the essence of this being true. And Titus had a very personal reason to not feel sorry at all when imagining Nero's sudden demise, given as a teenager he witnessed the death of his friend Britannicus.
ahhhhh that makes a lot of sense!
How Antonia and Caenis saved the Empire (sort of)
Date: 2026-03-17 03:38 pm (UTC)Germanicus, reminder, also dies young after producing lots of kids with Agrippina the Elder, which is the reason why Antonia won't stop childraising since little Caligula, Drusilla and Julia Livilla will end up with her. (Not Agrippina the Younger, who gets married off at age 13 to Nero's bio dad.) Her sole daughter Livilla gets married to Tiberius' sole surviving biological son, i.e. her first cousin, because this dynasty really likes to keep it in the family. Now fast forward a few years. Antonia's brother-in-law Tiberius is now Emperor, but it has come too late in his life, he's a bitter old man withdrawn to Capri, and there are increasingly bizarre rumors about what he's up to there. In Rome, his bff Sejanus whom Tiberius has appointed head of the Praetorians is the de facto ruler of the city and is busy practising state terror, at least that's what later historians write. (The one historian writing while Sejanus is still alive describes him as the second Agrippa to Tiberius' Augustus and the most wonderful man, natch.) Now whether it's Tiberius' or Sejanus idea, Agrippina the Elder gets banished and later brutally maltreated and killed to an island, and Agrippina the Elder's two oldest sons get executed, which is how grandmother Antonia ends up raising the rest of the kids. Sejanus makes increasing attempts to get a connection by marriage to the imperial family. He's marrying his sister to Claudius (she becomes Claudius' second wife and will only stay around for as long as Sejanus does), but because Claudius is the least respected member of the clan, this is just the beginning. Sejanus then starts an affair with Antonia's daughter Livilla. Who is married to Tiberius' son, remember. Sejanus is also married, but hey.
Then, at least according to Sejanus' wife Apicata, who will tell all of this to Antonia, Sejanus and Livilla concoct the sinister scheme of poisoning Livilla's husband so she is free and Sejanus can divorce Apicata and marry Livilla, which would give him not only a direct connection by marriage to the imperial family but also would make him the stepdad of Livilla's son and Tiberius' sole biological male grandchild Tiberius Gemellus. Apicata, hearing she's about to be ditched, goes to Antonia to reveal all. Antonia believes her and is horrified. However, Sejanus completely controlls all the mail going to and from Capri to Tiberius. Antonia decides to write to Tiberius along the lines of "your bff murdered your son and wants to become the next Emperor, are you blind!" with the message disguised as a chatty family letter about the kids. (In "I, Claudius" she smuggles it via telling Claudius who is a historian writing about the Etruscans that he has to go to Capri to ask Tiberius permission to dedicate his latest historical work to him, which is the kind of excuse Sejanus will buy, but that was Rober Graves' addition.) She also tells Caenis whom she dictates the letter to to immediately forget all that was in it, but Caenis says she can't, she understands the content and the enormity of it, but she swears to keep mum. (If word gets out to Sejanus, these two are as dead as poor Agrippina the Elder and her oldest two boys.)
Antonia's letter is sent, deemed harmless by Sejanus and forwarded to Capri where a shocked Tiberius reads it and was REVENGE for this enormous betrayal. Because Sejanus has made a lot of enemies during his fast rise to the top, there is of course an ambitious Praetorian wanting to succeed him, Macro, who organizes Sejanus' takedown. (With enormous brutality. Sejanus' kids from his marriage to Apicata also get executed. Because the girl is a twelve years old virgin, and Roman law forbids executing virgins, she gets raped first, then executed.) As for Sejanus' lover Livilla, Antonia herself punishes her daughter by locking her in her room and starving her to death. As I said, she's a frightening old battleax.
Antonia will live into the reign of her grandson Caligula where she herself will commit suicide (in "I, Claudius" because she is so disgusted by what's going on and has no hope anymore things will get better). We don't know whether Caenis and Narcisuss were freed before or after her death, but freed they were. Vespasian's life long relationship with Caenis probably started before that point. Caenis became a very successful businesswoman and according to Suetonius, after the death of his wife the mother of Titus and Domitian Vespasian lived openly with her as if she were his wife, but because she was a Freedwoman and he of senatorial rank, he could not marry her.
Re: How Antonia and Caenis saved the Empire (sort of)
Date: 2026-03-18 05:24 am (UTC)Antonia decides to write to Tiberius along the lines of "your bff murdered your son and wants to become the next Emperor, are you blind!" with the message disguised as a chatty family letter about the kids.
So how does she do this in a way that Sejanus thinks is harmless but Tiberius knows exactly what's going on?
Because the girl is a twelve years old virgin, and Roman law forbids executing virgins, she gets raped first, then executed.
This is both awful and also seems to be kind of a problem with this law...
Re: How Antonia and Caenis saved the Empire (sort of)
Date: 2026-03-18 04:44 pm (UTC)Here's the exact passage by Cassius Dio:
It was at this time that Caenis, the concubine of Vespasian, died. I mention her because she was exceedingly faithful and was gifted with a most excellent memory. Here is an illustration. Her mistress Antonia, the mother of Claudius, had once employed her as secretary in writing a secret letter to Tiberius about Sejanus and had immediately ordered the message to be erased, in order that no trace of it might be left. Thereupon she replied: "It is useless, mistress, for you to give this command; for not only this but as whatever else you dictate to me I always carry in my mind and it can never be erased." And not only for this reason does she seem to me to have been a remarkable woman, but also because Vespasian took such excessive delight in her. This gave her the greatest influence and she amassed untold wealth, so that it was even p289 thought that he made money through Caenis herself as his intermediary.
Re: How Antonia and Caenis saved the Empire (sort of)
Date: 2026-03-19 03:35 am (UTC)(Although okay they do all seem to give lots of sensational gossip, whether it's true or not, so I guess they do give me some details I want!)
no subject
Date: 2026-03-16 10:43 pm (UTC)It is pretty crazy that Josephus immediately prophecies that Vespasian will be emperor, which as was mentioned, is totally unprecedented. This suggests to me that it's not necessarily true, actually. Perhaps he said something vaguer, which during the year of the four emperors was retrospectively reinterpreted this way by both of them. The prophecy itself is delivered in private (for obvious reasons)--- just Vespasian and Titus, plus "two of his closest associates", who are probably his long-time army comrades as well as clients. It would make sense that the historian repeats (as usual) what should have been said, not what was actually said.
In any case, the setup also suggests that Vespasian knows a fair amount about Jews--- that they are reputedly prophets, and especially the priests. Perhaps he even knows the story of Joseph and Pharaoh? I wonder if this is something he has learned during the campaign (as opposition research) or maybe it was just common knowledge anywhere with a Jewish diaspora.
I have been to the Galilee and can confirm that it is pleasant, fertile and well-watered, and stays cool in summer compared to the Judean desert. It's cute that we get a digression on the fish. (They are a distinctively stripy tilapia--- now known as St. Peter's fish--- and the water is indeed clear enough to see them swimming around. I haven't been to Egypt, but the Nile does notoriously also have tilapia of some species. I am not sure how closely related they are.)
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 05:13 am (UTC)Ohhhh this is an interesting inference, I didn't pick up on that, but yeah that makes sense.
This suggests to me that it's not necessarily true, actually. Perhaps he said something vaguer, which during the year of the four emperors was retrospectively reinterpreted this way by both of them. The prophecy itself is delivered in private (for obvious reasons)--- just Vespasian and Titus, plus "two of his closest associates", who are probably his long-time army comrades as well as clients. It would make sense that the historian repeats (as usual) what should have been said, not what was actually said.
Ooh. I guess the story is so interestingly dramatic that this didn't even really occur to me. (I am a drama-loving person, okay.) But I guess that probably is the most logical conclusion!
That is really cool that you can confirm Josephus' descriptions, two thousand years later. And the fish!
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 04:13 pm (UTC)He must have said something, though. (Given Suetonius writes later than Josephus, I'm not sure whether he counts as an independent source, but: as Hadrian's secretary he had access to the Imperial archives, and presumably also to the papers of Hadrian's family; my translation points out the Trajan who is mentioned by Josephus in Book 3 as part of Vespasian's entourage is the father of the Trajan, cousin to Hadrian, who later becomes Emperor himself. Suetonius is generally hostile towards Jews in "Twelve Caesars", and so I'm not sure he would have given Josephus credit for making an accurate prophecy about Vespasian if Josephus were the only source for that claim.) I somehow can't see Vespasian being impressed by a vague "great things are coming your way, oh commander!", it had to be something more unusual than that because I'm sure Vespasian would have heard vague prophecies from other people as well.
Otoh: if the term "Emperor" was used, then it would have immediately been insanely risky for Vespasian. If word gets out to Nero, it just takes one order and he's dead. Speculation: maybe Josephus said something like "you are the chosen one, you will be elevated about all others within a year" and it was the accuracy of the timing that impressed Vespasian post facto. Or, in a chicken and egg kind of way: maybe whatever Josephus said helped inspiring Vespasian to throw his toga into the ring once it was clear there was a genuine chance here after Nero's immediate successor was quickly dispatched with.
Could Vespasian have learned about Joseph and Pharao before meeting Josephus via opposition research: I guess. Not least because Rome really did have a sizable Jewish community. And Poppea, Nero's second wife (already dead at this point), had according to Josephus in "Jewish Antiquities" a great interest in Jewish customs and religion and was seen by the Jews as their patron. (BTW since Josephus writes this well after Nero's death when Nero's memory was damned, i.e. when positive things about Poppea didn't gain him anything, I assume it's true.) If Poppea could study Judaism, there were teachers available who also could have briefed Vespasian even before he came to Judea and the Galilee.
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 04:43 pm (UTC)Yes, this is the kind of thing I imagined. It fits with our impression of J's technique so far--- as with Vespasian's military record, or his own reputation as a general, he does not lie outright but he does exaggerate.
And it fits with his strategic behavior. As you also say, "if the term "Emperor" was used, then it would have immediately been insanely risky for Vespasian", and it seems very unlikely that J would have chosen to flatter the guy who was going to decide whether or not to execute him in terms that would put V's own life in danger in that way.
What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version
Date: 2026-03-17 07:48 pm (UTC)"What do you say, young man?" (Vespasian) asked jovially. "Should I set out for Jerusalem straight away? I have a great desire to see your great Sabbath service in the Temple. But you've held me up so long in this Jotapat of yours. It's quite late in the year now. And if the people in Jerusalem are as stiff necked as you fellows here it'll be a long winded business."
He spoke casually and jestingly. 'But Joseph saw that the eyes in the broad, hard-lined peasant face were clear and watchful; he heard the man's loud breathing; then suddenly, in a blinding flash, he saw that in his secret heart this Roman did not want to march on Jerusalem; that he had no desire for a quick victory over Judea. Vespasian did not look as if he would give up in a hurry whatever he held. He wanted to keep his army, his three superb legions hwich worked so well together, and once the campaign was finished he would be deprived of them as a matter of course, and his command would be at an end. Joseph saw clearly that this man Vespasian did not want to march at present on Jerusalem.
The knowledge gave him new strangth. His agitations in the cave were still working within him. Heknew that now at last he would have to fight for his life, and in that fight the knowledge that the Roman had no desire to reach Jeruslaem gave him a tremendous advantage. Softly, but with burning conviction, he said: "I tell you this, General Vespasian. You will not march on Jerusalem this year. Probably not next year, either.'"
He saw Vespasian before him, strong and clear-eyed, a man. Gazing intently at him, Joseph proceeded slowly, as if he were digging the words out of himself: "You are destined for greater things."
(...) Vespasian's eyes narrowed as he stared at his prisoner. "Think of that," he said chaffingly, "so it seems the prophets have not died out in Judaea after all." But the raillery in his rough old voice was qu8ite mild; it breathed encouragement and good nature. (....)
Meanwhile JOseph madly racked his brains. His words had hit the mark; but what could he saw now to deepen the impression he made upon this man? The Roman stood there, a burly peasant, and waited. Joseph serached every corner of his memory. Claudius Reginus, JOhn of Gishala, "God is in Italy now." Where could he find a bone to fling to his man who heldl his life in his hands? (...)Joseph kneew that everything depended on his answer; he was fighting for his life. He summoned all his strength and gave the answer: "There are not many prophets in Judaea," he said, "and their sayings are dark. They have foretold that the Messiah will go out from Judaea. We misunderstood them and started this war. Now that I stand before you, Consul Vespasian, in your tent, I knoew the rihgt interpretation." He bowed to the Roman in profound reverence. "The Messiah will go out from Judaea, but he will not be a Jew. You are he, Consul Vespasian."
At this brazen fantastic lie everybody in the tent became silent. They had heard of the Messiah; the whole Oirent was full of talk about him. The Messaih: that was the demi-god of whom this part of the earth dreamed. (...)
With his clear, sly peasant eyes Vespasian stared into JOseph's, which were now filled with reverence. Joseph supported his stare for a long time. He was sweating, although in the tent it was not really hot; the fetters hurt his legs, his lcohtes chafed his skin. But he supported Vespasian's stare. Heknew that this was the decisive moment. Perhaps the Roman would sijmply turn away, angered or even disgusted, an dorder him to be conducted to the cross or to a slave ship sailing to Rome. But it was possible also that Vespasian might believe him. He must. In his heart, whlie he waited for the answer, he prayed feverishly: "God, make this Roman believe me. If you will not do it for my sake, do it for the sake of your Temple. For if the Roman believes, hif he does not march this year on Jeruslalem, then perhaps your city and your Temple may be saved before next year comes. Oh God, you must make the Roman believe, you must, you must!" So he stood there praying, in fear of his life, supporting the Roman's gaze, awaiting in tense agitation the Roman's answer.
The Roman simply said: "Well, well, well. Not so fast, young man."
Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version
Date: 2026-03-17 09:28 pm (UTC)Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version
Date: 2026-03-18 05:26 am (UTC)Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version
Date: 2026-03-18 09:55 am (UTC)What I cut from Feuchtwanger’s rendition of the scene is the part where once having said it, Joseph starts to rationalize it to himself and thinks, why not, MAYBE he really is the Messiah, he could be the Messiah, do we know he’s not the Messiah? Etc. The whole scene from Joseph correctly guessing Vespasian doesn’t want to win this year and give up his shiny command and legions and working from there to the Messiah prophecy to the rationalisation to Vespasian asking, only half joking, “so, when can I expect my Messiah-dom” and Joseph’s reply which is a longer version of “I can’t give you an exact date but if it takes too long, feel free to kill me, whereas I am sure it won’t take that long and that you yourself will take these chains from me” just feels so compellingly written and psychologically plausible to me that it’s my inner headcanon. While I acknowledge it’s a fictionalisation and he might just as well have said something else.
BTW, when I typed it with lots of typoes, it registred that Feuchtwanger’s translators made a pretty awkward mistake with all the “he supported Vespasian’s gaze”. The German word Feuchtwanger uses is “ertrug”, past tense of “ertragen”. Which I would translate with “he endured Vespasian’s gaze” etc. “Tragen” = “carry, support”, but “ertragen” = “endure”.
Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version
Date: 2026-03-19 03:33 am (UTC)Yeah, I remember this now that you're reminding me. Gosh, yes, so psychologically plausible, like you say.
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 05:10 am (UTC)- (22) Far from letting their spirit be cramped by a disaster of such magnitude, the Jews took the defeat as a spur to yet greater resolve, and, dismissing from their minds that carpet of corpses, they were lured on by the memory of previous successes to suffer a second crushing blow. Ugh, I just admire the construction of that sentence in the translation, leading to that second crushing blow, and also the "carpet of corpses." Ouch.
- (41) the two Galilees have always stood firm against any attempts to invade them -- the note to this says, "Josephus' claims about the warlike spirit of the Galilaeans and the wealth of their region are designed to magnify his own position as commander of rebel forces in the region." Hee.
- (137) Though [Josephus] himself could expect a pardon if he went over to the Romans -- I mean, I guess he was right, but the footnote says, "a remarkable claim in light of the preceding passage about the fate of Gabara," and I must agree.
- (200) [Josephus] did not see how his staying cooped up with [the Jotapatans] in the present situation could be of any use to them, when in fact it was more likely to intensify the Romans' efforts in the siege, given the value they set on his capture -- I just found this darkly hilarious (okay, this whole episode is) in a couple of different ways, first that he has all these arguments as to why he should escape, "avoiding any mention of his personal safety," as he says back in 197 -- and also that he is so very valuable to the Romans! (In his opinion, anyway.)
- (258) where the wall was broken [Josephus] installed the strongest of his fighters, with six men chosen by lot to lead each group, and he himself was one of those drawn to be at the forefront of the fighting. I mean. Assuming this is true, this is pretty cool, and also an interesting contrast to the next time he chooses things by lot.
- (340) The Romans now started a search for Josephus. They were angry enough on their own account, and their general had made this an urgent priority, as much of the war hinged on his capture. The note to this says, "Josephus is not reticent in claiming his own importance," which made me laugh!
- (381) For my [Josephus'] part, I shall never prove traitor to myself by going over to the enemy side. The footnote says this is dramatic irony, but I sort of wonder if Josephus actually believed it... that he believed it at the time, and then he was like, "well, actually... I had reasons!"
- (388) The Josephus problem! We are determined to die, so let's draw lots to decide the order... They thought this was a proposal made in good faith, so Josephus had his way and drew lots along with the others. That "They thought this was a proposal made in good faith"! WTF! In the end there was only Josephus and one other man left (should we call this pure luck, or God's providence?). I don't know, Josephus, what SHOULD we call it? The Wikipedia page says that the surviving Slavonic manuscript of Josephus tells a different story: that he "counted the numbers cunningly and so managed to deceive all the others", but I do not know how much to trust the cited references.
- (395) Among the officers there was not one who, whatever his earlier hostility, did not now relent at the sight of him. Titus in particular was powerfully affected by Josephus' resolute bearing in adversity and by pity for his youth. Wow, what a guy!
- (436) okay, to Josephus' credit he did not just talk about how everyone mourned for him when they thought he was dead but also how they were totally mad at him when they realized he'd gone over to the enemy...
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 04:26 pm (UTC)Could Josephus have expected a pardon given that according to his own descriptions, all the men of Gabara were killed - well, given he has a higher military position in the Jewish Resistance than your avarage male, he could at least count on Vespasian wanting him questioned and not slain right away. Otoh that's a very different thing from a pardon. In theory, once Josephus has said all about any plans he knows about, there is nothing stopping Vespasian from either killing ihm or selling him as a slave. Otoh Vespasian is a clever guy and it would have made sense if he had gotten word out that any resistance leaders surrendering to him could expect mercy. Also, there is some precedent. One of the leaders of the British resistance just fifteen or so years earlier impressed Claudius and Agrippina so much when he was present to them in chains and gave a Tacitus written proud speech that he got freed along with his family and finished his days as their client in Rome.
The footnote says this is dramatic irony, but I sort of wonder if Josephus actually believed it... that he believed it at the time, and then he was like, "well, actually... I had reasons!"
That seems plausible to me. And again, what happens to the country and Jerusalem and the Temple is such a catastrophe from a Jewish pov that in order to live with himself, he has to believe there was nothing else he could have done.
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 09:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2026-03-18 05:30 am (UTC)