The Jewish War: Book 3

[cahn]

Last week: The Jews are basically in an abusive relationship with Rome and have no good options; they choose the particular bad option of picking a war with Rome that they can't win. The Romans are terrible. Also continuing discussion here about Britannicus, Messalina, and the Praetorians.

This week: Vespasian comes down like a ton of bricks. That whole !!!! part of Josephus happens, where he gets stuck in the cave with a bunch of others and invents and wins the Josephus problem (well, in the text it says they draw lots, so he doesn't actually really cite what developed into the problem) (*) and surrenders to the Romans once he and another guy are the only ones left, and prophesies to Vespasian that he will become emperor. (selenak: Is it Feuchtwanger's invention to add the nomenclature of Messiah in there too? That definitely... upped the ante.)

(I'll comment more on this tomorrow -- I got done with the reading late and obviously barely got this written.)

Next week: first part of book 4, to "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment" (Josephus describing the Zealotes as the worst!) (388)

(*) E. wanted to know what I was reading, so I told her about the Josephus problem, and she said, "Real-world applications of math!"

Comments

What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version

[selenak]

cahn and I keep referring to a novel you likely haven't read, so here's Lion Feuchtwanger's rendition of Josephus prophecy and how he comes up with it:

"What do you say, young man?" (Vespasian) asked jovially. "Should I set out for Jerusalem straight away? I have a great desire to see your great Sabbath service in the Temple. But you've held me up so long in this Jotapat of yours. It's quite late in the year now. And if the people in Jerusalem are as stiff necked as you fellows here it'll be a long winded business."
He spoke casually and jestingly. 'But Joseph saw that the eyes in the broad, hard-lined peasant face were clear and watchful; he heard the man's loud breathing; then suddenly, in a blinding flash, he saw that in his secret heart this Roman did not want to march on Jerusalem; that he had no desire for a quick victory over Judea. Vespasian did not look as if he would give up in a hurry whatever he held. He wanted to keep his army, his three superb legions hwich worked so well together, and once the campaign was finished he would be deprived of them as a matter of course, and his command would be at an end. Joseph saw clearly that this man Vespasian did not want to march at present on Jerusalem.
The knowledge gave him new strangth. His agitations in the cave were still working within him. Heknew that now at last he would have to fight for his life, and in that fight the knowledge that the Roman had no desire to reach Jeruslaem gave him a tremendous advantage. Softly, but with burning conviction, he said: "I tell you this, General Vespasian. You will not march on Jerusalem this year. Probably not next year, either.'"
He saw Vespasian before him, strong and clear-eyed, a man. Gazing intently at him, Joseph proceeded slowly, as if he were digging the words out of himself: "You are destined for greater things."
(...) Vespasian's eyes narrowed as he stared at his prisoner. "Think of that," he said chaffingly, "so it seems the prophets have not died out in Judaea after all." But the raillery in his rough old voice was qu8ite mild; it breathed encouragement and good nature. (....)
Meanwhile JOseph madly racked his brains. His words had hit the mark; but what could he saw now to deepen the impression he made upon this man? The Roman stood there, a burly peasant, and waited. Joseph serached every corner of his memory. Claudius Reginus, JOhn of Gishala, "God is in Italy now." Where could he find a bone to fling to his man who heldl his life in his hands? (...)Joseph kneew that everything depended on his answer; he was fighting for his life. He summoned all his strength and gave the answer: "There are not many prophets in Judaea," he said, "and their sayings are dark. They have foretold that the Messiah will go out from Judaea. We misunderstood them and started this war. Now that I stand before you, Consul Vespasian, in your tent, I knoew the rihgt interpretation." He bowed to the Roman in profound reverence. "The Messiah will go out from Judaea, but he will not be a Jew. You are he, Consul Vespasian."
At this brazen fantastic lie everybody in the tent became silent. They had heard of the Messiah; the whole Oirent was full of talk about him. The Messaih: that was the demi-god of whom this part of the earth dreamed. (...)
With his clear, sly peasant eyes Vespasian stared into JOseph's, which were now filled with reverence. Joseph supported his stare for a long time. He was sweating, although in the tent it was not really hot; the fetters hurt his legs, his lcohtes chafed his skin. But he supported Vespasian's stare. Heknew that this was the decisive moment. Perhaps the Roman would sijmply turn away, angered or even disgusted, an dorder him to be conducted to the cross or to a slave ship sailing to Rome. But it was possible also that Vespasian might believe him. He must. In his heart, whlie he waited for the answer, he prayed feverishly: "God, make this Roman believe me. If you will not do it for my sake, do it for the sake of your Temple. For if the Roman believes, hif he does not march this year on Jeruslalem, then perhaps your city and your Temple may be saved before next year comes. Oh God, you must make the Roman believe, you must, you must!" So he stood there praying, in fear of his life, supporting the Roman's gaze, awaiting in tense agitation the Roman's answer.
The Roman simply said: "Well, well, well. Not so fast, young man."

Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version

[cenozoicsynapsid]

Thanks!

Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version

[cahn]

Well, I mean, I guess this is indeed a way to talk to Vespasian that doesn't use the E-word but that Vespasian might understand as such...

Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version

[selenak]

True, though I bet if Nero had heard about it, he’d have thought, hey, if anyone is the Messiah, whatever the Messiah is, I AM! And due to Poppea’s interest in Judaism, he might have actually heard about the Messiah beforehand. Then again, if Nero didn’t kill Vespasian for falling asleep during a concert of his, he clearly likes the old fellow. :)

What I cut from Feuchtwanger’s rendition of the scene is the part where once having said it, Joseph starts to rationalize it to himself and thinks, why not, MAYBE he really is the Messiah, he could be the Messiah, do we know he’s not the Messiah? Etc. The whole scene from Joseph correctly guessing Vespasian doesn’t want to win this year and give up his shiny command and legions and working from there to the Messiah prophecy to the rationalisation to Vespasian asking, only half joking, “so, when can I expect my Messiah-dom” and Joseph’s reply which is a longer version of “I can’t give you an exact date but if it takes too long, feel free to kill me, whereas I am sure it won’t take that long and that you yourself will take these chains from me” just feels so compellingly written and psychologically plausible to me that it’s my inner headcanon. While I acknowledge it’s a fictionalisation and he might just as well have said something else.

BTW, when I typed it with lots of typoes, it registred that Feuchtwanger’s translators made a pretty awkward mistake with all the “he supported Vespasian’s gaze”. The German word Feuchtwanger uses is “ertrug”, past tense of “ertragen”. Which I would translate with “he endured Vespasian’s gaze” etc. “Tragen” = “carry, support”, but “ertragen” = “endure”.

Re: What Josephus tells Vespasian - The Feuchtwanger version

[cahn]

Joseph starts to rationalize it to himself and thinks, why not, MAYBE he really is the Messiah, he could be the Messiah, do we know he’s not the Messiah?

Yeah, I remember this now that you're reminding me. Gosh, yes, so psychologically plausible, like you say.