The Jewish War: Book 3
Mar. 15th, 2026 10:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnLast week: The Jews are basically in an abusive relationship with Rome and have no good options; they choose the particular bad option of picking a war with Rome that they can't win. The Romans are terrible. Also continuing discussion here about Britannicus, Messalina, and the Praetorians.
This week: Vespasian comes down like a ton of bricks. That whole !!!! part of Josephus happens, where he gets stuck in the cave with a bunch of others and invents and wins the Josephus problem (well, in the text it says they draw lots, so he doesn't actually really cite what developed into the problem) (*) and surrenders to the Romans once he and another guy are the only ones left, and prophesies to Vespasian that he will become emperor. (selenak: Is it Feuchtwanger's invention to add the nomenclature of Messiah in there too? That definitely... upped the ante.)
(I'll comment more on this tomorrow -- I got done with the reading late and obviously barely got this written.)
Next week: first part of book 4, to "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment" (Josephus describing the Zealotes as the worst!) (388)
(*) E. wanted to know what I was reading, so I told her about the Josephus problem, and she said, "Real-world applications of math!"
This week: Vespasian comes down like a ton of bricks. That whole !!!! part of Josephus happens, where he gets stuck in the cave with a bunch of others and invents and wins the Josephus problem (well, in the text it says they draw lots, so he doesn't actually really cite what developed into the problem) (*) and surrenders to the Romans once he and another guy are the only ones left, and prophesies to Vespasian that he will become emperor. (
selenak: Is it Feuchtwanger's invention to add the nomenclature of Messiah in there too? That definitely... upped the ante.) (I'll comment more on this tomorrow -- I got done with the reading late and obviously barely got this written.)
Next week: first part of book 4, to "Despite the Zealotes didn't exactly behave as if they disbelieved the prophecies, they themselves contributed to their fulfillment" (Josephus describing the Zealotes as the worst!) (388)
(*) E. wanted to know what I was reading, so I told her about the Josephus problem, and she said, "Real-world applications of math!"
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 05:10 am (UTC)- (22) Far from letting their spirit be cramped by a disaster of such magnitude, the Jews took the defeat as a spur to yet greater resolve, and, dismissing from their minds that carpet of corpses, they were lured on by the memory of previous successes to suffer a second crushing blow. Ugh, I just admire the construction of that sentence in the translation, leading to that second crushing blow, and also the "carpet of corpses." Ouch.
- (41) the two Galilees have always stood firm against any attempts to invade them -- the note to this says, "Josephus' claims about the warlike spirit of the Galilaeans and the wealth of their region are designed to magnify his own position as commander of rebel forces in the region." Hee.
- (137) Though [Josephus] himself could expect a pardon if he went over to the Romans -- I mean, I guess he was right, but the footnote says, "a remarkable claim in light of the preceding passage about the fate of Gabara," and I must agree.
- (200) [Josephus] did not see how his staying cooped up with [the Jotapatans] in the present situation could be of any use to them, when in fact it was more likely to intensify the Romans' efforts in the siege, given the value they set on his capture -- I just found this darkly hilarious (okay, this whole episode is) in a couple of different ways, first that he has all these arguments as to why he should escape, "avoiding any mention of his personal safety," as he says back in 197 -- and also that he is so very valuable to the Romans! (In his opinion, anyway.)
- (258) where the wall was broken [Josephus] installed the strongest of his fighters, with six men chosen by lot to lead each group, and he himself was one of those drawn to be at the forefront of the fighting. I mean. Assuming this is true, this is pretty cool, and also an interesting contrast to the next time he chooses things by lot.
- (340) The Romans now started a search for Josephus. They were angry enough on their own account, and their general had made this an urgent priority, as much of the war hinged on his capture. The note to this says, "Josephus is not reticent in claiming his own importance," which made me laugh!
- (381) For my [Josephus'] part, I shall never prove traitor to myself by going over to the enemy side. The footnote says this is dramatic irony, but I sort of wonder if Josephus actually believed it... that he believed it at the time, and then he was like, "well, actually... I had reasons!"
- (388) The Josephus problem! We are determined to die, so let's draw lots to decide the order... They thought this was a proposal made in good faith, so Josephus had his way and drew lots along with the others. That "They thought this was a proposal made in good faith"! WTF! In the end there was only Josephus and one other man left (should we call this pure luck, or God's providence?). I don't know, Josephus, what SHOULD we call it? The Wikipedia page says that the surviving Slavonic manuscript of Josephus tells a different story: that he "counted the numbers cunningly and so managed to deceive all the others", but I do not know how much to trust the cited references.
- (395) Among the officers there was not one who, whatever his earlier hostility, did not now relent at the sight of him. Titus in particular was powerfully affected by Josephus' resolute bearing in adversity and by pity for his youth. Wow, what a guy!
- (436) okay, to Josephus' credit he did not just talk about how everyone mourned for him when they thought he was dead but also how they were totally mad at him when they realized he'd gone over to the enemy...
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 04:26 pm (UTC)Could Josephus have expected a pardon given that according to his own descriptions, all the men of Gabara were killed - well, given he has a higher military position in the Jewish Resistance than your avarage male, he could at least count on Vespasian wanting him questioned and not slain right away. Otoh that's a very different thing from a pardon. In theory, once Josephus has said all about any plans he knows about, there is nothing stopping Vespasian from either killing ihm or selling him as a slave. Otoh Vespasian is a clever guy and it would have made sense if he had gotten word out that any resistance leaders surrendering to him could expect mercy. Also, there is some precedent. One of the leaders of the British resistance just fifteen or so years earlier impressed Claudius and Agrippina so much when he was present to them in chains and gave a Tacitus written proud speech that he got freed along with his family and finished his days as their client in Rome.
The footnote says this is dramatic irony, but I sort of wonder if Josephus actually believed it... that he believed it at the time, and then he was like, "well, actually... I had reasons!"
That seems plausible to me. And again, what happens to the country and Jerusalem and the Temple is such a catastrophe from a Jewish pov that in order to live with himself, he has to believe there was nothing else he could have done.
no subject
Date: 2026-03-17 09:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2026-03-18 05:30 am (UTC)