I think I found evidence that it's real and who he wrote it for! (And yes, because FW's death was imminent.) More later!
ETA: Okay! Royal Detective reporting in.
Starting on page 164 of this volume on Saxon history is a review of a work (more on which shortly) on the beginning of Frederick the Great's reign. The reviewer mentions that in the spring of 1740, Count Brühl, future prime minister of Saxony of whom we've heard so much, commissioned write-ups on the character of Soon-to-Be-King Fritz from his diplomats Manteuffel and Suhm.
Suhm's was very concise and cautious, Manteuffel went on for pages and pages in great detail.
I can't turn up a copy of Manteuffel's online! I've found many references to it, including the review above, but the only copy I've found is one you can order via interlibrary loan via the Munich Stabi. (I guess we have to specify which Stabi, now that we have multiple Germans in our salon. ;) )
Manteuffel's character portrait, called Lettres confidentes sur le portrait de Fidamire, was published in Aus den Anfängen der Regierung Friedrichs des Grossen by Kurt/Curt Tröger/Troeger in 1901, if that helps any of our other detectives track it down.
Now, "Fidamire" is glossed as "Friedrich" in the review. Looks like we have another obscure Fritz nickname! A cursory Google only gives me Fidamira, the heroine of an obscure seventeenth-century English drama. I got nothing.
However, googling "Fidamire" turned up this biographical essay on Jordan, heavily footnoted, with pages of bibliography, including archives. It might contain something interesting, if one of our German readers wants to skim it.
Now, to Suhm's character portrait.
Between his awareness of (and sympathy for) Fritz's constant dissimulation, his awareness that Fritz's greatest passion is fame, and his awareness that Fritz will totally make war on princes that he personally likes, it sounds like Suhm kind of knew Fritz well enough not to be shocked by 1740 developments! He says a lot of other people have been deceived. Go Suhm!
The one thing where he seems to have been fooled is that he says Fritz "used to" mock everyone when he was young, but he's now outgrown that and criticizes people who mock others. Well, yes, the second part is and will remain true, Suhm. Sorry to break the news to you about the first part. :P
The part where Suhm says people have been fooled into thinking he will go to war on behalf of princes he personally likes, whereas Fritz has informed him that he could totally make war on someone he liked and ally with someone he didn't like at all, makes me think people have noticed that Fritz liked FS and sent him a salmon (via Suhm, remember!) but Suhm would not have been at all surprised if he'd lived a month longer and witnessed the "rendezvous with fame."
"I love you, Diaphane, but you're Prussian now and I'm invading Saxony" might not have surprised him either, much as I assume it would have disappointed him. (Given his list of Fritz's good qualities, the sheer ruthlessness of the occupation might have caught even Suhm off guard.)
The anecdote about Fritz displaying courage and a cool head when seeing action for the first time is one I'd seen before. Suhm says he's got it from the Prince of Lichtenstein (remember, the guy who loaned Fritz money, lost land when Fritz invaded Silesia, sold Fritz the Antinous, and eventually got his debts repaid in like the 1770s or whatever :P).
The most interesting part to me was Suhm saying that just before he left, he and Fritz had a conversation about "a certain person of distinction" who was no longer in Fritz's good graces, which had given Suhm some reason to wonder if Fritz might be fickle and might not always love him. And Fritz gave him the (unspecified by Suhm) reasons for distancing himself from this certain person of distinction, in order to reassure Suhm that Suhm had nothing to worry about.
Two things here.
One, whatever Fritz said was obviously convincing, plus the four subsequent years of correspondence, because the part that breaks *my* heart about their letters is the part where Suhm submitted his resignation the moment he heard about FW's death, without even bothering to inform Fritz, because he was so confident that Fritz wanted him that he assumed it would be equally obvious to Fritz that Suhm wanted *him*. Spoiler: Fritz needed the reassurance.
Two, of course I immediately wondered who the person of distinction was. Upon first reading, without having done any research, I guessed based on the chronology that it was Manteuffel. Suhm leaves for St. Petersburg in late 1736; Fritz is defending himself to Grumbkow about his sudden switch from love (remember, in July 1736, Fritz shows Manteuffel "all the tendernesses imaginable," leading selenak to wonder if they had sex, and gave him a Socrates bust walking stick head like the one he gave Voltaire) to coldness toward Manteuffel in October 1737. And of course, if Fritz suddenly turned cold on the current Saxon envoy, Suhm would be alert to that for both political and personal reasons!
Then I found the review of the Manteuffel letters, which dates the Fritz/Manteuffel rift to 1736. (It seems to involve a portrait? I'm not clear on how that played out. "Das Original des Gemäldes, das Friedrich 1736 mit zum Abbruch der Beziehungen zu Manteuffel bewog...") So I still think it's entirely possible Suhm is referring to Manteuffel here.
So *that's* interesting. Brühl is asking for character portraits on Fritz from Suhm, (who is apparently not on good terms with Brühl, at least according to the ever-poorly-informed Stratemann) and Manteuffel (whom we know from a variety of sources is not on great terms with Fritz, who will shortly send him packing).
Oh, the editor of the Suhm volume, I forgot to mention, I love how he's all, "And in 1730 Suhm was recalled from the Berlin court, for reasons which I do not know but which I'm sure did not reflect badly on Suhm. It was probably FW's fault! Also, since we all know FW hated learned people, people who liked Wolff, and people who Fritz liked, he probably hated Suhm!"
Editor clearly doesn't know about the time in the 1720s when Suhm fled the country because FW was threatening to hang him, and the time in 1736 when FW heard Suhm got assigned to St. Petersburg and said he should have hanged Suhm when he had the chance. You were more right than you knew, editor! :D
In conclusion, thank you for pointing us to this, felis, it was delightful, and it gave me a little more fodder for my ship!
Speaking of Suhm, there is a several-hundred page dissertation (2007) on Saxon diplomacy between 1694 and 1763, which I have picked through using Google translate long ago for biographical info on Suhm, and which, once my German allows me to skim, is on my reading list for more skimming. Envoys: a subfandom of their own!
Ha, I just realized that Volz included this portrait in his "Spiegel" collection, picture of Suhm and all. :P (I've been wanting to get to that one, but there's So Much To Read!)
Volz doesn't include the Manteuffel one (save for a two page excerpt written after Fritz became king), he just mentions the same Troeger source. (I see that the state archive actually has his personal copy of that obscure publication, but I couldn't find a digital version anywhere either.)
But speaking of Manteuffel, yes, Volz says he's the "person of distinction", too.
(It seems to involve a portrait? I'm not clear on how that played out. "Das Original des Gemäldes, das Friedrich 1736 mit zum Abbruch der Beziehungen zu Manteuffel bewog...")
For the portrait in question, see page 35 here (also p. 98, footnote 102, for the explanation). Apparently, the letter in the portrait shows that he was writing to Fritz, and neither Fritz nor FW liked that self-stylization by Manteuffel (see Seckendorff's Journal: Pöllnitz me raconte la bévue du peintre Matthieu, qui a fait remarquer au roi, que la lettre, qui se trouve sur le portrait du Diable, s'adresse au prince royal. Cette remarque jette le roi dans un grand sérieux.). The author of the book says it was just one of multiple reasons for their falling-out in 1736. I've only skimmed the rest of the available pages so far, but it seems quite interesting, especially regarding the way Manteuffel was trying to shape Fritz' philosophical views. I think the portrait was just a symptom of Fritz realizing just how much Manteuffel was trying to manipulate him. Apparently Manteuffel even sabotaged a Wolff return during FW's reign, because he wanted this to happen once Fritz became king. (Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.)
because the part that breaks *my* heart about their letters is the part where Suhm submitted his resignation the moment he heard about FW's death, without even bothering to inform Fritz, because he was so confident that Fritz wanted him that he assumed it would be equally obvious to Fritz that Suhm wanted *him*. Spoiler: Fritz needed the reassurance.
Yes! I knew about it in theory because I'd read your write-up, but seeing Fritz so uncharacteristically tentative, no "come to me at once!" in sight, was still surprising and really touching. Especially coupled with Suhm's actions, as you said. It's ship catnip as far as I'm concerned.
Volz doesn't include the Manteuffel one (save for a two page excerpt written after Fritz became king), he just mentions the same Troeger source.
Ah, I saw Volz come up in my results for people who referred to but didn't reproduce Troeger, but I didn't notice he'd included the Suhm portrait and more information. Well spotted!
But speaking of Manteuffel, yes, Volz says he's the "person of distinction", too.
Aha! My guess is vindicated. :D :D :D
When two detectives put their heads together, the findings proliferate!
For the portrait in question, see page 35 here (also p. 98, footnote 102, for the explanation).
Ahh, thank you! I had found that book too, but since I can't yet skim German, only read it very slowly, I hadn't extracted any information from it aside from realizing it was yet another source that cites but doesn't reproduce the Troeger publication. The book looks fascinating--too bad it's $280! Do let us know if you get more information out of the preview, I'm very curious.
Oh, it's De Gruyter, of course it's unreasonably expensive. Sigh. De Gruyter's been doing this to me since grad school.
I think the portrait was just a symptom of Fritz realizing just how much Manteuffel was trying to manipulate him.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.
True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that. But yeah, Voltaire was definitely Fritz's all-time fave. :P
Yes! I knew about it in theory because I'd read your write-up, but seeing Fritz so uncharacteristically tentative, no "come to me at once!" in sight, was still surprising and really touching
Yeah, definitely. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Fritz begged Suhm not to go in 1736, and he went anyway, and he was gainfully employed in St. Petersburg. In contrast to Algarotti, who was still at loose ends looking for a job, and Duhan, who had been involuntarily exiled due to helping Fritz out and had gotten a position with his help. I can see why Fritz was so tentative with Suhm.
TOTAL CATNIP.
Especially coupled with Suhm's actions, as you said
Yeah, when we first found the letters, as you saw, we had the discussion around how much of the flattery was rococo conventions combined with the fact that we have here a diplomat and a future monarch, but then when I looked more closely at their actions...1) Fritz tries to get Suhm to leave Russia and come back even after Suhm is pumping the Russian court for money for Fritz, 2) Suhm submits his resignation without even asking Fritz. Those are actions, not just courtly phrases. And the second one I had to carefully piece together the chronology of, because Hamilton says the reason Suhm didn't make the first move was that he was proceeding carefully with the new monarch and waiting for Fritz to invite him. When, to my reading and dating, it was quite the opposite: he was extremely sure of his welcome, based on his actions.
Brühl is asking for character portraits on Fritz from Suhm, (who is apparently not on good terms with Brühl, at least according to the ever-poorly-informed Stratemann)
Correction: Stratemann says nothing about Suhm's relationship with Brühl. He says that rumor has it (in the late 1720s) that being "a creature of Flemming", Flemming being the PM in a feud with Countess Cosel majorly responsible for her fall, Suhm was recalled and then sent to Königsstein after Flemming lost the ministry and his life. However, this was not due to Brühl, who wasn't top dog yet, but a young up and rising guy. Flemming was replaced as the most important minister in August the Strong's cabinet by Hoym, something the expensive source with partly googlebable text felis linked points out. Whether or not Hoym was bad news for Suhm (though the Königstein rumor is definitely wrong), Hoym definetley spelled trouble to Mantteuffel, who at this point had held a post in August's cabinet himself and prudently resigned, withdrawing to that country seat Sorgenfrei whose name the expensive source swears was the original for Sanssouci. (Until becoming envoy to Prussia again.) However, Hoym in turn fell, rather nastily, too, which included an accusation and condemnation for incest with his niece (!!!! this in Saxony, where August supposedly, well, you know), was arrested and interned at Königstein, committed suicide, and had his body hung from the walls of Königstein for two weeks as a warning example afterwards. Apparently Mantteuffel discusses this in his correspondence with Fritz (which is at Trier), as despite his own enmity with the man it shocked him. (Or so he said.) And then it was Sulkowski and Brühl time, and ultimately just Brühl time in terms of top ministers in Saxony. Considering Brühl was about to oust Sulkowski for good by the time Suhm was appointed for the Petersburg job (which was prestigious), I very much doubt Brühl had a problem with Suhm.
felis mentioning Suhm's report and part of Mantteufel's post, not pre coronation report is in Volz made me check Volz again, which brought up some other stuff, but none of it is about Suhm, so I'll report it elsewhere.
ETA: the expensive source with partly goggleable text also cleared up something I've been curious about, i.e. who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
I am mostly just following this whole thread and all of you in glee, and have nothing to really contribute so I haven't been saying much, but I must say it made me smile that now we know who got the golden portrait knob on a stick first :D
Flemming was replaced as the most important minister in August the Strong's cabinet by Hoym
Aaahhh, thank you. I remembered Flemming but had forgotten he was followed not by Brühl but by Hoym. I do remember Hoym! I remember that he was envoy to France, was recalled, but was suspected of having gone native and of not being loyal to Saxony any more; that he was at Zeithain; that he committed suicide in prison; that we couldn't determine whether he had been Catholic or Protestant (relevant to the acceptability of suicide question).
Considering Brühl was about to oust Sulkowski for good by the time Suhm was appointed for the Petersburg job (which was prestigious), I very much doubt Brühl had a problem with Suhm.
Good to know! Once I read the Saxon diplomacy dissertation, I'm sure I'll be able to keep all the Saxons straight. :)
who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
Like cahn, I'm tickled that we find out little things like this.
Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.
True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that.
Oh, I was mostly talking about 1736. Manteuffel, huge fan of Wolff and founder of a fanclub the "Societé des Aletophiles", was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff. Manteuffel was not amused and not a fan of the anti-metaphysics slant of the French enlightenment. Expensive Source mentions a conversation between Fritz and Manteuffel on August 10th, 1736 (due to 20 missing pages in the wrong spot, I have no idea what the source for that is, probably Manteuffel himself), just two days after Fritz' first letter to Voltaire, where Fritz tells him that he's very doubtful re: immortality of the soul, which apparently alarms Manteuffel quite a bit. As we know, Fritz talks about the topic with both Suhm and Voltaire as well, and he isn't convinced by Wolff's arguments on the matter. (By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.)
Speaking of founding "Societés", a tidbit that was new to me: Expensive Source says that Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
Horowski in Das Europa der Könige has quite a lot about that particular Societé in the chapter Grumbkow trinkt. :)
ETA: also, I keep forgetting to add this somewhere, so here it goes: in the review of Tröger's book that Mildred linked, it says that Manteuffel basically intended to write a complete novella in volume in reply ot Brühl's demand for a take on Fritz, via letters, first "Fritz: the good side" letters, and then "Fritz: the bad side" letters, but by the time FW kicked the bucket, only the good side letters had been finished, so he sent those plus the anonymous report to Dresden. Yet another reminder of how the letter format was such a firm favourite for 18th century literary productions.
Ahh, okay, yes, that makes sense. Yes, I love that too.
was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff.
Yesss. It's quite fun watching Fritz initially rave about Wolff to Suhm, and then turn up more and more objections.
To cite Asprey (who is good at making me laugh with his witticisms, if nothing else):
When Frederick at Ruppin received from Suhm the first chapter of the Métaphysique, in which Wolff demonstrates how man can be certain that he exists and has a soul, he wrote gratefully, “You have convinced me that I indubitably exist."
Leopold von Ranke marked this period of conversion as beatific, and he may have been right. The discovery of one's soul does not occur every day, and it is certainly exciting to learn that one is immortal.
By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.
I am not buying books at present (*sad panda*), but this one can be obtained for less than $20, so much more appealing on that count.
Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
His involvement rings a bell, but I had forgotten that. Okay then, indeed!
cahn: FW and August the Strong founded a society, consisting of them and their closest cohorts, for combating sobriety. Chief duties were drinking a lot, and gifting each other alcohol and drinking vessels.
I am not buying books at present (*sad panda*), but this one can be obtained for less than $20, so much more appealing on that count.
what has to happen is that I have to up my currently-terrible reading game so that I can buy scanning and/or translation favors from you, in book-currency
And speaking of needing to up our games, I need to up my currently terrible German reading game for a number of reasons. I've actually gotten to the point where I *can* read most of the texts that I would need to read for our salon! Like the Strasbourg write-ups, or Expensive Source on Manteuffel, etc. The problem is that I read so slowly that it's not feasible. But despite the fact that I have a very limited vocab that I badly need to broaden, that's not the current impediment. Current impediment is speed.
Well, with luck, I can resume studying German soon and get my reading speed up...to speed. :P
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-14 03:03 pm (UTC)ETA: Okay! Royal Detective reporting in.
Starting on page 164 of this volume on Saxon history is a review of a work (more on which shortly) on the beginning of Frederick the Great's reign. The reviewer mentions that in the spring of 1740, Count Brühl, future prime minister of Saxony of whom we've heard so much, commissioned write-ups on the character of Soon-to-Be-King Fritz from his diplomats Manteuffel and Suhm.
Suhm's was very concise and cautious, Manteuffel went on for pages and pages in great detail.
I can't turn up a copy of Manteuffel's online! I've found many references to it, including the review above, but the only copy I've found is one you can order via interlibrary loan via the Munich Stabi. (I guess we have to specify which Stabi, now that we have multiple Germans in our salon. ;) )
Manteuffel's character portrait, called Lettres confidentes sur le portrait de Fidamire, was published in Aus den Anfängen der Regierung Friedrichs des Grossen by Kurt/Curt Tröger/Troeger in 1901, if that helps any of our other detectives track it down.
Now, "Fidamire" is glossed as "Friedrich" in the review. Looks like we have another obscure Fritz nickname! A cursory Google only gives me Fidamira, the heroine of an obscure seventeenth-century English drama. I got nothing.
However, googling "Fidamire" turned up this biographical essay on Jordan, heavily footnoted, with pages of bibliography, including archives. It might contain something interesting, if one of our German readers wants to skim it.
Now, to Suhm's character portrait.
Between his awareness of (and sympathy for) Fritz's constant dissimulation, his awareness that Fritz's greatest passion is fame, and his awareness that Fritz will totally make war on princes that he personally likes, it sounds like Suhm kind of knew Fritz well enough not to be shocked by 1740 developments! He says a lot of other people have been deceived. Go Suhm!
The one thing where he seems to have been fooled is that he says Fritz "used to" mock everyone when he was young, but he's now outgrown that and criticizes people who mock others. Well, yes, the second part is and will remain true, Suhm. Sorry to break the news to you about the first part. :P
The part where Suhm says people have been fooled into thinking he will go to war on behalf of princes he personally likes, whereas Fritz has informed him that he could totally make war on someone he liked and ally with someone he didn't like at all, makes me think people have noticed that Fritz liked FS and sent him a salmon (via Suhm, remember!) but Suhm would not have been at all surprised if he'd lived a month longer and witnessed the "rendezvous with fame."
"I love you, Diaphane, but you're Prussian now and I'm invading Saxony" might not have surprised him either, much as I assume it would have disappointed him. (Given his list of Fritz's good qualities, the sheer ruthlessness of the occupation might have caught even Suhm off guard.)
The anecdote about Fritz displaying courage and a cool head when seeing action for the first time is one I'd seen before. Suhm says he's got it from the Prince of Lichtenstein (remember, the guy who loaned Fritz money, lost land when Fritz invaded Silesia, sold Fritz the Antinous, and eventually got his debts repaid in like the 1770s or whatever :P).
The most interesting part to me was Suhm saying that just before he left, he and Fritz had a conversation about "a certain person of distinction" who was no longer in Fritz's good graces, which had given Suhm some reason to wonder if Fritz might be fickle and might not always love him. And Fritz gave him the (unspecified by Suhm) reasons for distancing himself from this certain person of distinction, in order to reassure Suhm that Suhm had nothing to worry about.
Two things here.
One, whatever Fritz said was obviously convincing, plus the four subsequent years of correspondence, because the part that breaks *my* heart about their letters is the part where Suhm submitted his resignation the moment he heard about FW's death, without even bothering to inform Fritz, because he was so confident that Fritz wanted him that he assumed it would be equally obvious to Fritz that Suhm wanted *him*. Spoiler: Fritz needed the reassurance.
Two, of course I immediately wondered who the person of distinction was. Upon first reading, without having done any research, I guessed based on the chronology that it was Manteuffel. Suhm leaves for St. Petersburg in late 1736; Fritz is defending himself to Grumbkow about his sudden switch from love (remember, in July 1736, Fritz shows Manteuffel "all the tendernesses imaginable," leading
Then I found the review of the Manteuffel letters, which dates the Fritz/Manteuffel rift to 1736. (It seems to involve a portrait? I'm not clear on how that played out. "Das Original des Gemäldes, das Friedrich 1736 mit zum Abbruch der Beziehungen zu Manteuffel bewog...") So I still think it's entirely possible Suhm is referring to Manteuffel here.
So *that's* interesting. Brühl is asking for character portraits on Fritz from Suhm, (who is apparently not on good terms with Brühl, at least according to the ever-poorly-informed Stratemann) and Manteuffel (whom we know from a variety of sources is not on great terms with Fritz, who will shortly send him packing).
Oh, the editor of the Suhm volume, I forgot to mention, I love how he's all, "And in 1730 Suhm was recalled from the Berlin court, for reasons which I do not know but which I'm sure did not reflect badly on Suhm. It was probably FW's fault! Also, since we all know FW hated learned people, people who liked Wolff, and people who Fritz liked, he probably hated Suhm!"
Editor clearly doesn't know about the time in the 1720s when Suhm fled the country because FW was threatening to hang him, and the time in 1736 when FW heard Suhm got assigned to St. Petersburg and said he should have hanged Suhm when he had the chance. You were more right than you knew, editor! :D
In conclusion, thank you for pointing us to this,
Speaking of Suhm, there is a several-hundred page dissertation (2007) on Saxon diplomacy between 1694 and 1763, which I have picked through using Google translate long ago for biographical info on Suhm, and which, once my German allows me to skim, is on my reading list for more skimming. Envoys: a subfandom of their own!
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-14 09:04 pm (UTC)Volz doesn't include the Manteuffel one (save for a two page excerpt written after Fritz became king), he just mentions the same Troeger source. (I see that the state archive actually has his personal copy of that obscure publication, but I couldn't find a digital version anywhere either.)
But speaking of Manteuffel, yes, Volz says he's the "person of distinction", too.
(It seems to involve a portrait? I'm not clear on how that played out. "Das Original des Gemäldes, das Friedrich 1736 mit zum Abbruch der Beziehungen zu Manteuffel bewog...")
For the portrait in question, see page 35 here (also p. 98, footnote 102, for the explanation). Apparently, the letter in the portrait shows that he was writing to Fritz, and neither Fritz nor FW liked that self-stylization by Manteuffel (see Seckendorff's Journal: Pöllnitz me raconte la bévue du peintre Matthieu, qui a fait remarquer au roi, que la lettre, qui se trouve sur le portrait du Diable, s'adresse au prince royal. Cette remarque jette le roi dans un grand sérieux.). The author of the book says it was just one of multiple reasons for their falling-out in 1736. I've only skimmed the rest of the available pages so far, but it seems quite interesting, especially regarding the way Manteuffel was trying to shape Fritz' philosophical views. I think the portrait was just a symptom of Fritz realizing just how much Manteuffel was trying to manipulate him. Apparently Manteuffel even sabotaged a Wolff return during FW's reign, because he wanted this to happen once Fritz became king. (Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.)
because the part that breaks *my* heart about their letters is the part where Suhm submitted his resignation the moment he heard about FW's death, without even bothering to inform Fritz, because he was so confident that Fritz wanted him that he assumed it would be equally obvious to Fritz that Suhm wanted *him*. Spoiler: Fritz needed the reassurance.
Yes! I knew about it in theory because I'd read your write-up, but seeing Fritz so uncharacteristically tentative, no "come to me at once!" in sight, was still surprising and really touching. Especially coupled with Suhm's actions, as you said. It's ship catnip as far as I'm concerned.
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-14 09:29 pm (UTC)Ah, I saw Volz come up in my results for people who referred to but didn't reproduce Troeger, but I didn't notice he'd included the Suhm portrait and more information. Well spotted!
But speaking of Manteuffel, yes, Volz says he's the "person of distinction", too.
Aha! My guess is vindicated. :D :D :D
When two detectives put their heads together, the findings proliferate!
For the portrait in question, see page 35 here (also p. 98, footnote 102, for the explanation).
Ahh, thank you! I had found that book too, but since I can't yet skim German, only read it very slowly, I hadn't extracted any information from it aside from realizing it was yet another source that cites but doesn't reproduce the Troeger publication. The book looks fascinating--too bad it's $280! Do let us know if you get more information out of the preview, I'm very curious.
Oh, it's De Gruyter, of course it's unreasonably expensive. Sigh. De Gruyter's been doing this to me since grad school.
I think the portrait was just a symptom of Fritz realizing just how much Manteuffel was trying to manipulate him.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.
True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that. But yeah, Voltaire was definitely Fritz's all-time fave. :P
Yes! I knew about it in theory because I'd read your write-up, but seeing Fritz so uncharacteristically tentative, no "come to me at once!" in sight, was still surprising and really touching
Yeah, definitely. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Fritz begged Suhm not to go in 1736, and he went anyway, and he was gainfully employed in St. Petersburg. In contrast to Algarotti, who was still at loose ends looking for a job, and Duhan, who had been involuntarily exiled due to helping Fritz out and had gotten a position with his help. I can see why Fritz was so tentative with Suhm.
TOTAL CATNIP.
Especially coupled with Suhm's actions, as you said
Yeah, when we first found the letters, as you saw, we had the discussion around how much of the flattery was rococo conventions combined with the fact that we have here a diplomat and a future monarch, but then when I looked more closely at their actions...1) Fritz tries to get Suhm to leave Russia and come back even after Suhm is pumping the Russian court for money for Fritz, 2) Suhm submits his resignation without even asking Fritz. Those are actions, not just courtly phrases. And the second one I had to carefully piece together the chronology of, because Hamilton says the reason Suhm didn't make the first move was that he was proceeding carefully with the new monarch and waiting for Fritz to invite him. When, to my reading and dating, it was quite the opposite: he was extremely sure of his welcome, based on his actions.
MY ERASTES SHIP. <3
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-15 05:59 am (UTC)Correction: Stratemann says nothing about Suhm's relationship with Brühl. He says that rumor has it (in the late 1720s) that being "a creature of Flemming", Flemming being the PM in a feud with Countess Cosel majorly responsible for her fall, Suhm was recalled and then sent to Königsstein after Flemming lost the ministry and his life. However, this was not due to Brühl, who wasn't top dog yet, but a young up and rising guy. Flemming was replaced as the most important minister in August the Strong's cabinet by Hoym, something the expensive source with partly googlebable text
ETA: the expensive source with partly goggleable text also cleared up something I've been curious about, i.e. who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-17 05:46 am (UTC)Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 02:15 pm (UTC)Aaahhh, thank you. I remembered Flemming but had forgotten he was followed not by Brühl but by Hoym. I do remember Hoym! I remember that he was envoy to France, was recalled, but was suspected of having gone native and of not being loyal to Saxony any more; that he was at Zeithain; that he committed suicide in prison; that we couldn't determine whether he had been Catholic or Protestant (relevant to the acceptability of suicide question).
Considering Brühl was about to oust Sulkowski for good by the time Suhm was appointed for the Petersburg job (which was prestigious), I very much doubt Brühl had a problem with Suhm.
Good to know! Once I read the Saxon diplomacy dissertation, I'm sure I'll be able to keep all the Saxons straight. :)
who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
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Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-15 05:33 pm (UTC)True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that.
Oh, I was mostly talking about 1736. Manteuffel, huge fan of Wolff and founder of
a fanclubthe "Societé des Aletophiles", was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff. Manteuffel was not amused and not a fan of the anti-metaphysics slant of the French enlightenment.Expensive Source mentions a conversation between Fritz and Manteuffel on August 10th, 1736 (due to 20 missing pages in the wrong spot, I have no idea what the source for that is, probably Manteuffel himself), just two days after Fritz' first letter to Voltaire, where Fritz tells him that he's very doubtful re: immortality of the soul, which apparently alarms Manteuffel quite a bit. As we know, Fritz talks about the topic with both Suhm and Voltaire as well, and he isn't convinced by Wolff's arguments on the matter. (By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.)
Speaking of founding "Societés", a tidbit that was new to me: Expensive Source says that Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-16 06:09 am (UTC)ETA: also, I keep forgetting to add this somewhere, so here it goes: in the review of Tröger's book that Mildred linked, it says that Manteuffel basically intended to write a complete novella in volume in reply ot Brühl's demand for a take on Fritz, via letters, first "Fritz: the good side" letters, and then "Fritz: the bad side" letters, but by the time FW kicked the bucket, only the good side letters had been finished, so he sent those plus the anonymous report to Dresden. Yet another reminder of how the letter format was such a firm favourite for 18th century literary productions.
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-19 06:38 am (UTC)Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 03:26 pm (UTC)Ahh, okay, yes, that makes sense. Yes, I love that too.
was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff.
Yesss. It's quite fun watching Fritz initially rave about Wolff to Suhm, and then turn up more and more objections.
To cite Asprey (who is good at making me laugh with his witticisms, if nothing else):
When Frederick at Ruppin received from Suhm the first chapter of the Métaphysique, in which Wolff demonstrates how man can be certain that he exists and has a soul, he wrote gratefully, “You have convinced me that I indubitably exist."
Leopold von Ranke marked this period of conversion as beatific, and he may have been right. The discovery of one's soul does not occur every day, and it is certainly exciting to learn that one is immortal.
By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.
I am not buying books at present (*sad panda*), but this one can be obtained for less than $20, so much more appealing on that count.
Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
His involvement rings a bell, but I had forgotten that. Okay then, indeed!
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 05:39 pm (UTC)what has to happen is that I have to up my currently-terrible reading game so that I can buy scanning and/or translation favors from you, in book-currencyRe: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 05:43 pm (UTC)And speaking of needing to up our games, I need to up my currently terrible German reading game for a number of reasons. I've actually gotten to the point where I *can* read most of the texts that I would need to read for our salon! Like the Strasbourg write-ups, or Expensive Source on Manteuffel, etc. The problem is that I read so slowly that it's not feasible. But despite the fact that I have a very limited vocab that I badly need to broaden, that's not the current impediment. Current impediment is speed.
Well, with luck, I can resume studying German soon and get my reading speed up...to speed. :P