Volz doesn't include the Manteuffel one (save for a two page excerpt written after Fritz became king), he just mentions the same Troeger source.
Ah, I saw Volz come up in my results for people who referred to but didn't reproduce Troeger, but I didn't notice he'd included the Suhm portrait and more information. Well spotted!
But speaking of Manteuffel, yes, Volz says he's the "person of distinction", too.
Aha! My guess is vindicated. :D :D :D
When two detectives put their heads together, the findings proliferate!
For the portrait in question, see page 35 here (also p. 98, footnote 102, for the explanation).
Ahh, thank you! I had found that book too, but since I can't yet skim German, only read it very slowly, I hadn't extracted any information from it aside from realizing it was yet another source that cites but doesn't reproduce the Troeger publication. The book looks fascinating--too bad it's $280! Do let us know if you get more information out of the preview, I'm very curious.
Oh, it's De Gruyter, of course it's unreasonably expensive. Sigh. De Gruyter's been doing this to me since grad school.
I think the portrait was just a symptom of Fritz realizing just how much Manteuffel was trying to manipulate him.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.
True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that. But yeah, Voltaire was definitely Fritz's all-time fave. :P
Yes! I knew about it in theory because I'd read your write-up, but seeing Fritz so uncharacteristically tentative, no "come to me at once!" in sight, was still surprising and really touching
Yeah, definitely. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Fritz begged Suhm not to go in 1736, and he went anyway, and he was gainfully employed in St. Petersburg. In contrast to Algarotti, who was still at loose ends looking for a job, and Duhan, who had been involuntarily exiled due to helping Fritz out and had gotten a position with his help. I can see why Fritz was so tentative with Suhm.
TOTAL CATNIP.
Especially coupled with Suhm's actions, as you said
Yeah, when we first found the letters, as you saw, we had the discussion around how much of the flattery was rococo conventions combined with the fact that we have here a diplomat and a future monarch, but then when I looked more closely at their actions...1) Fritz tries to get Suhm to leave Russia and come back even after Suhm is pumping the Russian court for money for Fritz, 2) Suhm submits his resignation without even asking Fritz. Those are actions, not just courtly phrases. And the second one I had to carefully piece together the chronology of, because Hamilton says the reason Suhm didn't make the first move was that he was proceeding carefully with the new monarch and waiting for Fritz to invite him. When, to my reading and dating, it was quite the opposite: he was extremely sure of his welcome, based on his actions.
Brühl is asking for character portraits on Fritz from Suhm, (who is apparently not on good terms with Brühl, at least according to the ever-poorly-informed Stratemann)
Correction: Stratemann says nothing about Suhm's relationship with Brühl. He says that rumor has it (in the late 1720s) that being "a creature of Flemming", Flemming being the PM in a feud with Countess Cosel majorly responsible for her fall, Suhm was recalled and then sent to Königsstein after Flemming lost the ministry and his life. However, this was not due to Brühl, who wasn't top dog yet, but a young up and rising guy. Flemming was replaced as the most important minister in August the Strong's cabinet by Hoym, something the expensive source with partly googlebable text felis linked points out. Whether or not Hoym was bad news for Suhm (though the Königstein rumor is definitely wrong), Hoym definetley spelled trouble to Mantteuffel, who at this point had held a post in August's cabinet himself and prudently resigned, withdrawing to that country seat Sorgenfrei whose name the expensive source swears was the original for Sanssouci. (Until becoming envoy to Prussia again.) However, Hoym in turn fell, rather nastily, too, which included an accusation and condemnation for incest with his niece (!!!! this in Saxony, where August supposedly, well, you know), was arrested and interned at Königstein, committed suicide, and had his body hung from the walls of Königstein for two weeks as a warning example afterwards. Apparently Mantteuffel discusses this in his correspondence with Fritz (which is at Trier), as despite his own enmity with the man it shocked him. (Or so he said.) And then it was Sulkowski and Brühl time, and ultimately just Brühl time in terms of top ministers in Saxony. Considering Brühl was about to oust Sulkowski for good by the time Suhm was appointed for the Petersburg job (which was prestigious), I very much doubt Brühl had a problem with Suhm.
felis mentioning Suhm's report and part of Mantteufel's post, not pre coronation report is in Volz made me check Volz again, which brought up some other stuff, but none of it is about Suhm, so I'll report it elsewhere.
ETA: the expensive source with partly goggleable text also cleared up something I've been curious about, i.e. who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
I am mostly just following this whole thread and all of you in glee, and have nothing to really contribute so I haven't been saying much, but I must say it made me smile that now we know who got the golden portrait knob on a stick first :D
Flemming was replaced as the most important minister in August the Strong's cabinet by Hoym
Aaahhh, thank you. I remembered Flemming but had forgotten he was followed not by Brühl but by Hoym. I do remember Hoym! I remember that he was envoy to France, was recalled, but was suspected of having gone native and of not being loyal to Saxony any more; that he was at Zeithain; that he committed suicide in prison; that we couldn't determine whether he had been Catholic or Protestant (relevant to the acceptability of suicide question).
Considering Brühl was about to oust Sulkowski for good by the time Suhm was appointed for the Petersburg job (which was prestigious), I very much doubt Brühl had a problem with Suhm.
Good to know! Once I read the Saxon diplomacy dissertation, I'm sure I'll be able to keep all the Saxons straight. :)
who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
Like cahn, I'm tickled that we find out little things like this.
Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.
True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that.
Oh, I was mostly talking about 1736. Manteuffel, huge fan of Wolff and founder of a fanclub the "Societé des Aletophiles", was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff. Manteuffel was not amused and not a fan of the anti-metaphysics slant of the French enlightenment. Expensive Source mentions a conversation between Fritz and Manteuffel on August 10th, 1736 (due to 20 missing pages in the wrong spot, I have no idea what the source for that is, probably Manteuffel himself), just two days after Fritz' first letter to Voltaire, where Fritz tells him that he's very doubtful re: immortality of the soul, which apparently alarms Manteuffel quite a bit. As we know, Fritz talks about the topic with both Suhm and Voltaire as well, and he isn't convinced by Wolff's arguments on the matter. (By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.)
Speaking of founding "Societés", a tidbit that was new to me: Expensive Source says that Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
Horowski in Das Europa der Könige has quite a lot about that particular Societé in the chapter Grumbkow trinkt. :)
ETA: also, I keep forgetting to add this somewhere, so here it goes: in the review of Tröger's book that Mildred linked, it says that Manteuffel basically intended to write a complete novella in volume in reply ot Brühl's demand for a take on Fritz, via letters, first "Fritz: the good side" letters, and then "Fritz: the bad side" letters, but by the time FW kicked the bucket, only the good side letters had been finished, so he sent those plus the anonymous report to Dresden. Yet another reminder of how the letter format was such a firm favourite for 18th century literary productions.
Ahh, okay, yes, that makes sense. Yes, I love that too.
was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff.
Yesss. It's quite fun watching Fritz initially rave about Wolff to Suhm, and then turn up more and more objections.
To cite Asprey (who is good at making me laugh with his witticisms, if nothing else):
When Frederick at Ruppin received from Suhm the first chapter of the Métaphysique, in which Wolff demonstrates how man can be certain that he exists and has a soul, he wrote gratefully, “You have convinced me that I indubitably exist."
Leopold von Ranke marked this period of conversion as beatific, and he may have been right. The discovery of one's soul does not occur every day, and it is certainly exciting to learn that one is immortal.
By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.
I am not buying books at present (*sad panda*), but this one can be obtained for less than $20, so much more appealing on that count.
Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
His involvement rings a bell, but I had forgotten that. Okay then, indeed!
cahn: FW and August the Strong founded a society, consisting of them and their closest cohorts, for combating sobriety. Chief duties were drinking a lot, and gifting each other alcohol and drinking vessels.
I am not buying books at present (*sad panda*), but this one can be obtained for less than $20, so much more appealing on that count.
what has to happen is that I have to up my currently-terrible reading game so that I can buy scanning and/or translation favors from you, in book-currency
And speaking of needing to up our games, I need to up my currently terrible German reading game for a number of reasons. I've actually gotten to the point where I *can* read most of the texts that I would need to read for our salon! Like the Strasbourg write-ups, or Expensive Source on Manteuffel, etc. The problem is that I read so slowly that it's not feasible. But despite the fact that I have a very limited vocab that I badly need to broaden, that's not the current impediment. Current impediment is speed.
Well, with luck, I can resume studying German soon and get my reading speed up...to speed. :P
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-14 09:29 pm (UTC)Ah, I saw Volz come up in my results for people who referred to but didn't reproduce Troeger, but I didn't notice he'd included the Suhm portrait and more information. Well spotted!
But speaking of Manteuffel, yes, Volz says he's the "person of distinction", too.
Aha! My guess is vindicated. :D :D :D
When two detectives put their heads together, the findings proliferate!
For the portrait in question, see page 35 here (also p. 98, footnote 102, for the explanation).
Ahh, thank you! I had found that book too, but since I can't yet skim German, only read it very slowly, I hadn't extracted any information from it aside from realizing it was yet another source that cites but doesn't reproduce the Troeger publication. The book looks fascinating--too bad it's $280! Do let us know if you get more information out of the preview, I'm very curious.
Oh, it's De Gruyter, of course it's unreasonably expensive. Sigh. De Gruyter's been doing this to me since grad school.
I think the portrait was just a symptom of Fritz realizing just how much Manteuffel was trying to manipulate him.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Gotta say, I just LOVE that Fritz decided to go for both Suhm and Voltaire instead.
True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that. But yeah, Voltaire was definitely Fritz's all-time fave. :P
Yes! I knew about it in theory because I'd read your write-up, but seeing Fritz so uncharacteristically tentative, no "come to me at once!" in sight, was still surprising and really touching
Yeah, definitely. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Fritz begged Suhm not to go in 1736, and he went anyway, and he was gainfully employed in St. Petersburg. In contrast to Algarotti, who was still at loose ends looking for a job, and Duhan, who had been involuntarily exiled due to helping Fritz out and had gotten a position with his help. I can see why Fritz was so tentative with Suhm.
TOTAL CATNIP.
Especially coupled with Suhm's actions, as you said
Yeah, when we first found the letters, as you saw, we had the discussion around how much of the flattery was rococo conventions combined with the fact that we have here a diplomat and a future monarch, but then when I looked more closely at their actions...1) Fritz tries to get Suhm to leave Russia and come back even after Suhm is pumping the Russian court for money for Fritz, 2) Suhm submits his resignation without even asking Fritz. Those are actions, not just courtly phrases. And the second one I had to carefully piece together the chronology of, because Hamilton says the reason Suhm didn't make the first move was that he was proceeding carefully with the new monarch and waiting for Fritz to invite him. When, to my reading and dating, it was quite the opposite: he was extremely sure of his welcome, based on his actions.
MY ERASTES SHIP. <3
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-15 05:59 am (UTC)Correction: Stratemann says nothing about Suhm's relationship with Brühl. He says that rumor has it (in the late 1720s) that being "a creature of Flemming", Flemming being the PM in a feud with Countess Cosel majorly responsible for her fall, Suhm was recalled and then sent to Königsstein after Flemming lost the ministry and his life. However, this was not due to Brühl, who wasn't top dog yet, but a young up and rising guy. Flemming was replaced as the most important minister in August the Strong's cabinet by Hoym, something the expensive source with partly googlebable text
ETA: the expensive source with partly goggleable text also cleared up something I've been curious about, i.e. who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-17 05:46 am (UTC)Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 02:15 pm (UTC)Aaahhh, thank you. I remembered Flemming but had forgotten he was followed not by Brühl but by Hoym. I do remember Hoym! I remember that he was envoy to France, was recalled, but was suspected of having gone native and of not being loyal to Saxony any more; that he was at Zeithain; that he committed suicide in prison; that we couldn't determine whether he had been Catholic or Protestant (relevant to the acceptability of suicide question).
Considering Brühl was about to oust Sulkowski for good by the time Suhm was appointed for the Petersburg job (which was prestigious), I very much doubt Brühl had a problem with Suhm.
Good to know! Once I read the Saxon diplomacy dissertation, I'm sure I'll be able to keep all the Saxons straight. :)
who, Mantteuffel or Voltaire, got Fritz' "I'm the Alcibiades to your Socrates!" present of a golden portrait knob on a stick first - it was Mantteuffel.
Like
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-15 05:33 pm (UTC)True, although Voltaire didn't get the same kind of instantaneous invitation Suhm (and Algarotti) got, and he was disgruntled about that.
Oh, I was mostly talking about 1736. Manteuffel, huge fan of Wolff and founder of
a fanclubthe "Societé des Aletophiles", was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff. Manteuffel was not amused and not a fan of the anti-metaphysics slant of the French enlightenment.Expensive Source mentions a conversation between Fritz and Manteuffel on August 10th, 1736 (due to 20 missing pages in the wrong spot, I have no idea what the source for that is, probably Manteuffel himself), just two days after Fritz' first letter to Voltaire, where Fritz tells him that he's very doubtful re: immortality of the soul, which apparently alarms Manteuffel quite a bit. As we know, Fritz talks about the topic with both Suhm and Voltaire as well, and he isn't convinced by Wolff's arguments on the matter. (By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.)
Speaking of founding "Societés", a tidbit that was new to me: Expensive Source says that Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-16 06:09 am (UTC)ETA: also, I keep forgetting to add this somewhere, so here it goes: in the review of Tröger's book that Mildred linked, it says that Manteuffel basically intended to write a complete novella in volume in reply ot Brühl's demand for a take on Fritz, via letters, first "Fritz: the good side" letters, and then "Fritz: the bad side" letters, but by the time FW kicked the bucket, only the good side letters had been finished, so he sent those plus the anonymous report to Dresden. Yet another reminder of how the letter format was such a firm favourite for 18th century literary productions.
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-19 06:38 am (UTC)Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 03:26 pm (UTC)Ahh, okay, yes, that makes sense. Yes, I love that too.
was trying his very best to get Fritz' on board with Wolff and his metaphysics and shape him into a "Philosopher King" as imagined by Wolff - and then Fritz turns around and not only chooses Suhm for all his Wolff needs, he also starts writing to Voltaire, who promptly pokes holes into Wolff.
Yesss. It's quite fun watching Fritz initially rave about Wolff to Suhm, and then turn up more and more objections.
To cite Asprey (who is good at making me laugh with his witticisms, if nothing else):
When Frederick at Ruppin received from Suhm the first chapter of the Métaphysique, in which Wolff demonstrates how man can be certain that he exists and has a soul, he wrote gratefully, “You have convinced me that I indubitably exist."
Leopold von Ranke marked this period of conversion as beatific, and he may have been right. The discovery of one's soul does not occur every day, and it is certainly exciting to learn that one is immortal.
By the way, author of Expensive Source also wrote a book called "Der Kampf um Kronprinz Friedrich. Wolff gegen Voltaire", so you see where he is going with this.
I am not buying books at present (*sad panda*), but this one can be obtained for less than $20, so much more appealing on that count.
Manteuffel was key in bringing August II. and FW together and was involved in the founding of the "Societé des Anti-sobres", which the two of them started in Dresden in 1728 (other members: Seckendorff and Grumbkow). Okay then!
His involvement rings a bell, but I had forgotten that. Okay then, indeed!
Re: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 05:39 pm (UTC)what has to happen is that I have to up my currently-terrible reading game so that I can buy scanning and/or translation favors from you, in book-currencyRe: Suhm about Fritz (?)
Date: 2021-02-20 05:43 pm (UTC)And speaking of needing to up our games, I need to up my currently terrible German reading game for a number of reasons. I've actually gotten to the point where I *can* read most of the texts that I would need to read for our salon! Like the Strasbourg write-ups, or Expensive Source on Manteuffel, etc. The problem is that I read so slowly that it's not feasible. But despite the fact that I have a very limited vocab that I badly need to broaden, that's not the current impediment. Current impediment is speed.
Well, with luck, I can resume studying German soon and get my reading speed up...to speed. :P