See, I knew one of EC's siblings had married into the Russian royal family around this time, but I didn't know it was the one who'd gotten locked up for being the father of Ivan VI,
Ahem. Ahem.
"Eh, she's going to give in any moment now," Georgii said, referring to the earlier question about Maria Theresia. "What else is there left for her? It's not like her man is any good on the field, or he'd faced us by now instead of hiding behind her skirts back in Vienna. No spine, that one, and that means she doesn't have it, either. In Russia, everyone was scared as hell of the last Czarina, because of that son of a bitch, her lover Biron. The new one is just married to a wet blanket, like the Habsburg girl, so she doesn't have any authority."
"That would be the King's brother-in-law we're talking about?" Fredersdorf enquired mildly, referring to the Regent Anna Leopoldovna's husband. It was also a test. Georgii shrugged and smiled disarmingly, evidently not discomforted.
" No one can help his in-laws, and it's not like the King cares about the Queen, right?
(I did read that chapter of Horowski, too.) It is an incredibly tragic story, That Anton Ulrich, when finally given the chance to go, refused because he didn't want to leave his kids struck me as yet another proof that EC's siblings come across as quietly heroic (or not quietly but competently heroic in Ferdinand's case). Let's hope she never found out about Fritz' advice.
I know, that's why I remembered one of her siblings had married into the Russian royal family! But I did not make the connection with "Dad stranded in remote Russia" from "Ekaterina". I knew the parts but hadn't connected the dots.
That Anton Ulrich, when finally given the chance to go, refused because he didn't want to leave his kids struck me as yet another proof that EC's siblings come across as quietly heroic
That interpretation had occurred to me as well. The other possibility is that we don't know how being in prison affected him psychologically: he might not have felt up to building a new life. Could be a little of both.
Let's hope she never found out about Fritz' advice.
I like how we're constantly going, "Let's hope so-and-so never found out that Fritz said X." Fritz! :P
Incidentally, I can think of a reason for him giving that advice in the first place that’s connected to my other Yuletide tale. Because I recall his frequent complaints about how Ulrike’s plans and actions will surely end up with the Swedish royal family in exile on his doorstep and him having to not just take them in but probably at least make a gesture towards restoring them (which would go against his treaty with Catherine about protecting the Swedish constitution).
Well, I’m pretty sure all the Hohenzollern/Brunswick marriages came with treaties and promises of mutual military assistance, and I seem to recall Fritz bitching every time it looked like Ferdinand of Braunschweig wasn’t at once at his beck and call as a a general. Didn’t the Ziebura book on the wives mention EC having to write some letters on the subject, or am I misremembering? Anyway, my point is: if Anton Ulrich and his children, with or without Ivan, had managed to escape Russia to, say, neighbouring Prussia (hello there, Königsberg, first stop for deposed monarchs!), Fritz would have likely been obliged not only to take them in but, if Anton Ulrich’s older brother, Charlotte’s husband as the reigning Duke of Braunschweig had demanded it, provide military assistance against Russia. => Fritz telling Elizaveta to look them out of sight and out of mind. At least imo.
For comparison, see also Marie Antoinette’s Habsburg relations. Joseph tried to help her, but he died before things in France got really terrible for her, and Leopold dragged his feet as much as he could, saying that while he had a sister, Austria did not. Austria did end up going to war against France (as part of an overall HRE effort) later, - resulting in the defeat at the hands of Revolutionary France which no one had seen coming - , but that was when Leopold’s son Franz was already Emperor and after Marie Antoinette had been executed. I also seem to recall Axel von Fersen complaining that the Austrians were no help at all in his efforts to save the royal family.
Conclusion: if you are a deposed Royal, you better not count on your family coming to your aide, and you’re lucky if they don’t advise your rivals to send you to the backend of nowhere instead.
Fritz would have likely been obliged not only to take them in but, if Anton Ulrich’s older brother, Charlotte’s husband as the reigning Duke of Braunschweig had demanded it, provide military assistance against Russia. => Fritz telling Elizaveta to look them out of sight and out of mind.
wooow. That is... frighteningly plausible and IC. (Even before I read that Leopold was also not too keen on helping Marie Antoinette, though at least I guess he didn't advise Revolutionary France...)
No, that was Philippe d'Orleans. (Neither the gay brother of the Sun King nor his son the Regent, but the Regent's son (or grandson? Not 100% sure) who renamed himself Philipe l'Egalité and actually voted for Louis XVI. execution in the National Convent. Not that it saved him from the same fate in the long term.)
Great-grandson. The son, as I recall, was the one who became not only extremely pious and retreated from society, but decided to invent his own religion. In which, among other things, he denied the existence of death. When he wanted to talk to someone and was told they were dead, he refused to believe it and insisted it was a conspiracy to keep him from seeing them.
Somebody who knew how to manage him, once got him to sign paperwork instead of throwing a fit about it, by explaining that the word for "late" in whichever language it was didn't mean "dead", but was an honorary title given to all kings of Spain, an explanation which he accepted.
According to one of Horowski's wittiest remarks, he eventually "died, in refutation of his own pet theory." God, I love Horowski.
Only slightly less deranged but far more harmful was the Duc de Mazarin, husband of Hortense Mancini, niece of the Cardinal Mazarin. Fanatically religious, the Duke is famous for having knocked off all the penises from his family's statue collection (this story rings a faint bell, though I couldn't have told you who the guilty party was), and somewhat less famous for having forbidden the milkmaids on his estates from milking cows, lest they get ideas from handling udders aka cow-breasts, and according to Horowski, being narrowly talked out of having his daughters' teeth pulled to make them less attractive, to reduce the chances of them having affairs; according to Wikipedia, actually knocked out his maidservants' teeth for the same reason.
I'm like, look, dude, just because you're not getting any and therefore find cows disturbingly attractive, doesn't mean we all do! :P Also, leave women's teeth alone, ffs.
explaining that the word for "late" in whichever language it was didn't mean "dead", but was an honorary title given to all kings of Spain, an explanation which he accepted.
Bwahahaha that's kind of brilliant.
he eventually "died, in refutation of his own pet theory."
HEE. Okay, I am really liking Horowski too by proxy :)
The cow thing, I am just... that... doesn't even make crazy sense?? The maids have their own breasts, why would handling cow breasts make any difference whatsoever... On second thought, probably a good thing no one told the Duke that, he'd probably have tried to cut off their breasts.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Ivan VI
Date: 2021-01-31 06:23 pm (UTC)See, I knew one of EC's siblings had married into the Russian royal family around this time, but I didn't know it was the one who'd gotten locked up for being the father of Ivan VI,
Ahem. Ahem.
"Eh, she's going to give in any moment now," Georgii said, referring to the earlier question about Maria Theresia. "What else is there left for her? It's not like her man is any good on the field, or he'd faced us by now instead of hiding behind her skirts back in Vienna. No spine, that one, and that means she doesn't have it, either. In Russia, everyone was scared as hell of the last Czarina, because of that son of a bitch, her lover Biron. The new one is just married to a wet blanket, like the Habsburg girl, so she doesn't have any authority."
"That would be the King's brother-in-law we're talking about?" Fredersdorf enquired mildly, referring to the Regent Anna Leopoldovna's husband. It was also a test. Georgii shrugged and smiled disarmingly, evidently not discomforted.
" No one can help his in-laws, and it's not like the King cares about the Queen, right?
(I did read that chapter of Horowski, too.) It is an incredibly tragic story, That Anton Ulrich, when finally given the chance to go, refused because he didn't want to leave his kids struck me as yet another proof that EC's siblings come across as quietly heroic (or not quietly but competently heroic in Ferdinand's case). Let's hope she never found out about Fritz' advice.
Re: Ivan VI
Date: 2021-01-31 06:34 pm (UTC)That Anton Ulrich, when finally given the chance to go, refused because he didn't want to leave his kids struck me as yet another proof that EC's siblings come across as quietly heroic
That interpretation had occurred to me as well. The other possibility is that we don't know how being in prison affected him psychologically: he might not have felt up to building a new life. Could be a little of both.
Let's hope she never found out about Fritz' advice.
I like how we're constantly going, "Let's hope so-and-so never found out that Fritz said X." Fritz! :P
Re: Ivan VI
Date: 2021-02-01 05:09 am (UTC)Well, I’m pretty sure all the Hohenzollern/Brunswick marriages came with treaties and promises of mutual military assistance, and I seem to recall Fritz bitching every time it looked like Ferdinand of Braunschweig wasn’t at once at his beck and call as a a general. Didn’t the Ziebura book on the wives mention EC having to write some letters on the subject, or am I misremembering? Anyway, my point is: if Anton Ulrich and his children, with or without Ivan, had managed to escape Russia to, say, neighbouring Prussia (hello there, Königsberg, first stop for deposed monarchs!), Fritz would have likely been obliged not only to take them in but, if Anton Ulrich’s older brother, Charlotte’s husband as the reigning Duke of Braunschweig had demanded it, provide military assistance against Russia.
=> Fritz telling Elizaveta to look them out of sight and out of mind. At least imo.
For comparison, see also Marie Antoinette’s Habsburg relations. Joseph tried to help her, but he died before things in France got really terrible for her, and Leopold dragged his feet as much as he could, saying that while he had a sister, Austria did not. Austria did end up going to war against France (as part of an overall HRE effort) later, - resulting in the defeat at the hands of Revolutionary France which no one had seen coming - , but that was when Leopold’s son Franz was already Emperor and after Marie Antoinette had been executed. I also seem to recall Axel von Fersen complaining that the Austrians were no help at all in his efforts to save the royal family.
Conclusion: if you are a deposed Royal, you better not count on your family coming to your aide, and you’re lucky if they don’t advise your rivals to send you to the backend of nowhere instead.
Re: Ivan VI
Date: 2021-02-13 06:23 am (UTC)=> Fritz telling Elizaveta to look them out of sight and out of mind.
wooow. That is... frighteningly plausible and IC. (Even before I read that Leopold was also not too keen on helping Marie Antoinette, though at least I guess he didn't advise Revolutionary France...)
Re: Ivan VI
Date: 2021-02-13 05:27 pm (UTC)Crazy d'Orleans and Mazarin heirs
Date: 2021-02-13 05:50 pm (UTC)Great-grandson. The son, as I recall, was the one who became not only extremely pious and retreated from society, but decided to invent his own religion. In which, among other things, he denied the existence of death. When he wanted to talk to someone and was told they were dead, he refused to believe it and insisted it was a conspiracy to keep him from seeing them.
Somebody who knew how to manage him, once got him to sign paperwork instead of throwing a fit about it, by explaining that the word for "late" in whichever language it was didn't mean "dead", but was an honorary title given to all kings of Spain, an explanation which he accepted.
According to one of Horowski's wittiest remarks, he eventually "died, in refutation of his own pet theory." God, I love Horowski.
Only slightly less deranged but far more harmful was the Duc de Mazarin, husband of Hortense Mancini, niece of the Cardinal Mazarin. Fanatically religious, the Duke is famous for having knocked off all the penises from his family's statue collection (this story rings a faint bell, though I couldn't have told you who the guilty party was), and somewhat less famous for having forbidden the milkmaids on his estates from milking cows, lest they get ideas from handling udders aka cow-breasts, and according to Horowski, being narrowly talked out of having his daughters' teeth pulled to make them less attractive, to reduce the chances of them having affairs; according to Wikipedia, actually knocked out his maidservants' teeth for the same reason.
I'm like, look, dude, just because you're not getting any and therefore find cows disturbingly attractive, doesn't mean we all do! :P Also, leave women's teeth alone, ffs.
Re: Crazy d'Orleans and Mazarin heirs
Date: 2021-02-13 06:09 pm (UTC)Bwahahaha that's kind of brilliant.
he eventually "died, in refutation of his own pet theory."
HEE. Okay, I am really liking Horowski too by proxy :)
The cow thing, I am just... that... doesn't even make crazy sense?? The maids have their own breasts, why would handling cow breasts make any difference whatsoever... On second thought, probably a good thing no one told the Duke that, he'd probably have tried to cut off their breasts.
Re: Crazy d'Orleans and Mazarin heirs
Date: 2021-02-13 06:12 pm (UTC)That's what I thought!
The cow thing, I am just... that... doesn't even make crazy sense??
It does if you're into cows! :P I mean...that's the only explanation I've got. (ETA: See also this guy I knew.)