More notes from the MT bio (I've got the afternoon off work, so doing some German):
1) So MT avoided being crowned Holy Roman Empress at Frankfurt, because it would ceremonially subordinate her to her husband, and she was queen (or officially king) in her own right in Hungary and Bohemia, *but* she not only insisted on being called Empress later, but was called "Empress of Austria" (which is...not really a thing) and had herself depicted in portraits with the imperial crown, which Stollberg-Rillinger points out was *technically* a usurpation, although no one objected because she was so clearly the de facto emperor.
Fritz and FW, meanwhile, avoid coronations in Prussia but go with the older (and cheaper) homage ceremony, which was the ceremony for a new Duke of Prussia, in the before times before F1 made it a kingdom. But Fritz and FW were both extremely *Kings* of Prussia.
2) It's not just Fritz who needs his dirty laundry cleaned (as MT observed), it's FS too! Behold this glory of a sentence, which FS wrote in one of his rare notes penned by himself, as a formal written apology to Chancellor Kaunitz:
ma vivasite fig mir Regt an et je vous dret nie lavoyre pas fay pour bocoup.
which is French-and-German for:
Ma vivacité ficht mich recht an, et je voudrais ne l'avoir pas fait pour beaucoup.
MT apparently got her hands on this note and cleaned it up herself and added some comments of her own before passing it on to Kaunitz, lol forever.
I know spelling hadn't been standardized, but "vous dret" is amazing. It's like Fritz's "asteure" for "à cette heure", but in reverse.
Actually, I wonder if it's more evidence for the same phenomenon that I speculated about in regards to Fritz's spelling: a sign that French lacked lexical stress already in the 18th century, and thus it not being at all obvious where the word breaks are when you're spelling phonetically.
I don't, either, other that there is no portrait of him or FW with such a thing. Now F1 I'd be 99% sure willing to bet had a crown made for the occasion of crowning himself as King of in Prussia, but otoh I wouldn't put it past FW to have melt it down and/or sold out of thriftiness. And there was no old inheritable crown jewelry for Prussia predating F1, so....
(Whereas the two other Princes Elector who became Kings could of course use ancient crowns, i.e. August the Strong the Polish crown, and G1 one of the English ones.)
Coming to think of it, there's a Menzel painting showing Wilhelm I. being crowned as King of Prussia in Königsberg in 1861 - that's the same Wilhelm who'll later became the first Emperor of the Bismarck-created German empire - here, but it's far too impressionistic to show whether there's a crown involved.
This picture shows a crown in 1861, the first time it was used since 1701.
Ah, googling F1's coronation gets me this article on F1's crown, which he did indeed have made, and which is the same one used by Wilhelm I (and it even looks the same as the one in the painting I just linked to, so that checks out). Apparently on display in Charlottenburg to this day. So FW did not melt it down!
English wiki says:
The crown was also used for the coronation of Frederick William I and his son, Frederick II (better known as Frederick the Great). He was a very frugal monarch, and although the crown was present at his coronation, he did not wear it.
Which is probably an accurate account if you translate it as "FW and Fritz had homage ceremonies rather than proper coronations."
I see German wiki quotes our guy Johann von Besser, F1's kickboxing master of ceremonies, describing the crown circa 1712. I like the way we keep getting to know all these obscure characters. :D
The Royal Detective strikes again! Well, that answers Felis' question - there was a crown, and he didn't wear it. And ha, I knew F1 would not have passed by the opportunity to have one made for him.
...I wonder whether the crown is one of those things the current Head Hohenzollern wants either money for or back?
ETA: Yes, they do. (And that's a great close-up photo of the crown in question.) Go figure.
And ha, I knew F1 would not have passed by the opportunity to have one made for him.
F1: You should see me in a crown. :D
But seriously, I was like 100% sure. How else could he hold his head up among the other crowned heads of Europe? Fritz and FW did it with an army, but this is F1!
Re current Hohenzollerns: my first reaction was, "It probably is, yeah," and sure enough. Nothing if not predictable, this latest generation!
RE: FS in need of laundry cleaning, and him from Lorraine, too. :) Mind you, he did grew up partly at the Vienna court, and also I am assuming that a lot more people back then were bilingual in Lorraine, just as they still are in the Alsace today. The mixing of languages also reminds me of Prince Eugene, whose signature famously unites three (his mother's Italian, the German of his Austrian boss, and the French he grew up with) - "Eugenio von Savoye".
Fredersdorf: and Voltaire kept bitching and inventing about the spelling of the letter our man in Frankfurt received in 1753!
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timeasmymeasure
MT and FS
Date: 2021-02-11 08:27 pm (UTC)1) So MT avoided being crowned Holy Roman Empress at Frankfurt, because it would ceremonially subordinate her to her husband, and she was queen (or officially king) in her own right in Hungary and Bohemia, *but* she not only insisted on being called Empress later, but was called "Empress of Austria" (which is...not really a thing) and had herself depicted in portraits with the imperial crown, which Stollberg-Rillinger points out was *technically* a usurpation, although no one objected because she was so clearly the de facto emperor.
Fritz and FW, meanwhile, avoid coronations in Prussia but go with the older (and cheaper) homage ceremony, which was the ceremony for a new Duke of Prussia, in the before times before F1 made it a kingdom. But Fritz and FW were both extremely *Kings* of Prussia.
2) It's not just Fritz who needs his dirty laundry cleaned (as MT observed), it's FS too! Behold this glory of a sentence, which FS wrote in one of his rare notes penned by himself, as a formal written apology to Chancellor Kaunitz:
ma vivasite fig mir Regt an et je vous dret nie lavoyre pas fay pour bocoup.
which is French-and-German for:
Ma vivacité ficht mich recht an, et je voudrais ne l'avoir pas fait pour beaucoup.
MT apparently got her hands on this note and cleaned it up herself and added some comments of her own before passing it on to Kaunitz, lol forever.
I know spelling hadn't been standardized, but "vous dret" is amazing. It's like Fritz's "asteure" for "à cette heure", but in reverse.
Actually, I wonder if it's more evidence for the same phenomenon that I speculated about in regards to Fritz's spelling: a sign that French lacked lexical stress already in the 18th century, and thus it not being at all obvious where the word breaks are when you're spelling phonetically.
Re: MT and FS
Date: 2021-02-12 12:25 am (UTC)Re: coronation - was there such a thing as a Prussian crown and did Fritz ever wear it? I realized that I have no idea.
Re: MT and FS
Date: 2021-02-12 06:18 am (UTC)ofin Prussia, but otoh I wouldn't put it past FW to have melt it down and/or sold out of thriftiness. And there was no old inheritable crown jewelry for Prussia predating F1, so....(Whereas the two other Princes Elector who became Kings could of course use ancient crowns, i.e. August the Strong the Polish crown, and G1 one of the English ones.)
Coming to think of it, there's a Menzel painting showing Wilhelm I. being crowned as King of Prussia in Königsberg in 1861 - that's the same Wilhelm who'll later became the first Emperor of the Bismarck-created German empire - here, but it's far too impressionistic to show whether there's a crown involved.
Prussian crown
Date: 2021-02-12 03:50 pm (UTC)Ah, googling F1's coronation gets me this article on F1's crown, which he did indeed have made, and which is the same one used by Wilhelm I (and it even looks the same as the one in the painting I just linked to, so that checks out). Apparently on display in Charlottenburg to this day. So FW did not melt it down!
English wiki says:
The crown was also used for the coronation of Frederick William I and his son, Frederick II (better known as Frederick the Great). He was a very frugal monarch, and although the crown was present at his coronation, he did not wear it.
Which is probably an accurate account if you translate it as "FW and Fritz had homage ceremonies rather than proper coronations."
I see German wiki quotes our guy Johann von Besser, F1's kickboxing master of ceremonies, describing the crown circa 1712. I like the way we keep getting to know all these obscure characters. :D
Re: Prussian crown
Date: 2021-02-12 04:52 pm (UTC)...I wonder whether the crown is one of those things the current Head Hohenzollern wants either money for or back?
ETA: Yes, they do. (And that's a great close-up photo of the crown in question.) Go figure.
Re: Prussian crown
Date: 2021-02-12 06:38 pm (UTC)F1: You should see me in a crown. :D
But seriously, I was like 100% sure. How else could he hold his head up among the other crowned heads of Europe? Fritz and FW did it with an army, but this is F1!
Re current Hohenzollerns: my first reaction was, "It probably is, yeah," and sure enough. Nothing if not predictable, this latest generation!
Re: MT and FS
Date: 2021-02-12 05:01 pm (UTC)Fredersdorf: and Voltaire kept bitching and inventing about the spelling of the letter our man in Frankfurt received in 1753!