I realize you must have said this before (that Fritz most likely lied to Katte) and yet this must have been long enough ago that I didn't know enough to be shocked, and now I'm shocked :P :)
As Selena noted, this was from when she was reading Hinrichs' collected protocols of the 1730 trial for us, so back circa April of last year. (Actually, come to think of it, I might have spotted it first in Koser? But then the primary source turned up in Hinrichs.) We kind of went WTF at Katte insisting that Grumbkow and Seckendorff had this conspiracy to marry Fritz to a Catholic princess and Fritz, put on the spot, not being able to come up with anything better than, "What? Who said that? I never said that!" To which Katte, when questioned again, said Fritz *absolutely* said that. That was the one place where their stories diverged, and also the one where Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer.
We couldn't decide if Katte was trying to excuse Fritz to FW, or Fritz had lied to Katte to get him to agree to the escape, or there had been a misunderstanding, or what. We had this exchange:
mildred_of_midgard: Katte brought the supposed plot up himself, in his interrogation. This means he 1) believed it (which shows how well he knew the scheming duo, but okay), 2) thought it was bad enough to justify running away, even in the eyes of FW. Fritz is also testifying, apparently independently of Katte, that Katte tried to prevent him from leaving. So the supposed plot might have been what changed Katte's mind. (Which, incidentally, tells you something about Katte and his feelings about Catholicism.)
selenak: Indeed it does. If to you converting to Catholicism (even to become Emperor) = Fate worse than steady paternal abuse is, then you're just this side of Oliver Cromwell in your feelings re: the Church of Rome.
And that bugged me, because it didn't jive with my picture of Katte. Until I read the Hans Heinrich letters. And then it made sense. And now I have to assume that Fritz lied, presumably because he was getting resistance from Katte on escaping, and Katte's religious fervor at the end was not only sincere but based on strong feelings before that fact.
It also suggests that the reason Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer when put on the spot at the trial was that he wasn't expecting this lie to come back and bite him. He may have blurted it out to Katte and forgotten he even said it? At any rate, it clearly didn't figure in his actual motives for escaping, so I can see why he had an "Oh shit" moment when they brought it up at the interrogation. Because as Selena points out, he's so consistently trying to exonerate Katte during the whole process, even before Katte's arrested. Starting with that very first conversation with Seckendorff, before Keith's disappearance was even noticed and the whole thing exploded into a conspiracy in FW's mind.
a) this had never occurred to me because I got imprinted by "Pulvis et Umbra," in which Katte is definitely not Protestant
Ah, ah! I actually deliberately left it ambiguous, because even then I conceded that didn't *know* whether Katte died with the fervor of a convert or was trying to appease FW. I actually gave it 50/50 in terms of what we know in real life. (My headcanon being something entirely different from my commitment to methodology as a scholar.) The entire fic as well as the dialogue is carefully constructed to make it open to both interpretations.
...But yeah, it is heavily skewed to direct you toward my personal preference, which is why you remember it that way. :P (The alternate interpretation was mostly there as a concession to my awareness that I might be wrong.)
But what I now have to say is actually completely wrong about that fic, is that in that fic Katte is definitely not a Protestant in Fritz's mind. Whereas now I have to conclude, based on Fritz lying to him, that Fritz knew full well that Katte was a Protestant at some level (possibly a questioning one, but clearly one biased against Catholics. Remember that Fritz is a deist in later life, and considers all religions delusions, but yet manages to be anti-Semitic because he's absorbed the biases of his Christian society; Katte might have done the same with Catholicism in his Protestant upbringing).
So yeah, sorry for imprinting you before salon had read All The Things. :P
I do sort of feel like this would explain some of Katte's last letter -
Well, considering it was not only composed by a preacher *and* in his handwriting, I was willing to write it off, but given the Hans Heinrich letters, I have to conclude the letter also isn't the complete fake I was hoping for.
I, uh, want this fanfic that goes into Fritz lying to Katte, which I know mildred will object to, but perhaps she can be content with the fact that this would actually help me ship it :P (yeah, [personal profile] selenak is a mean writer, I'm a mean reader *hides*)
So here I am to surprise you: I'm actually cool with that part! Fritz being a lying liar who lies is part of the reason I love him so much. It breaks my *heart* that he had to lie to get help, but we already knew he was getting so desperate and coming up with more and more wild ideas to escape because he wasn't getting support from the people closest to him. (Peter Keith is the last remaining candidate for someone who *might* have supported him from the beginning.)
But a story where Fritz has to lie to Katte is not a problem for me. (I've actually written snippets where Katte is trying to talk Fritz into staying, and I don't blame him for that nor Fritz for lying.)
The problem for me is Katte's final hours not being a masquerade for his and Fritz's fathers' benefit. I LIKED my headcanon!
I find masquerading (in any form, for any reason) far more interesting than sincere piety. This is why I find myself much more drawn to the deist "defender of the Protestant faith" having texts read in the church about not suffering a woman to lead, than to the actual pious woman who was doing the leading. (Not the misogyny; that part isn't attractive. But the hypocrisy--I love trickster figures.)
And I loved the thought that Katte was doing this *to protect Fritz*! That gave me so many feels.
I much preferred him having ulterior motives to being sincere. I've been grumbling ever since I read the Hans Heinrich letters and trying to figure out what to do about it.
Especially because part of "fix-it fic where they all escape to France and decide to stay there" is having to convert to at least nominal Catholicism. And I had Katte being all chill about it.
But maybe I can make it work by going with a headcanon according to which he's extremely questioning before his time in prison and death sentence, at which point he jumps back into the Protestant fold with a vengeance (there are atheists in foxholes, but I have to conclude Katte was not one), but has absorbed *societal* biases about the evils of Catholicism, like Fritz's anti-Semitism (and let's be real, probably Katte's unattested anti-Semitism as well :/).
So he puts up more resistance, but Fritz wins him over in the end, just like he did with the escape attempt.
Once more, I feel completely justified in the first of my Fritz/MT AUs. :)
Heeee! Well, yes :)
Yes, yes, yours are more justified than mine. :P
I... was looking for something else in salon recently and ended up rereading a comment thread about how Fritz basically worked up until the day he died. Following his father's example. This all makes me very sad :(
Yeah. If it's any comfort, he credited Wilhelmine with teaching him to love not only learning but work? But yeah, his father's example loomed large as well.
Not sure if this counts as comfort, I agree with Krockow that a lot of Fritz's inability to stop *doing things*, whatever things they were (work/studying/conversation/music/poetry), for five minutes, was driven by his inability to be alone with his thoughts, due to depression/PTSD. So it wasn't all FW's example? At any rate, it's bittersweet to me that he was able to keep working up till the very end.
That was the one place where their stories diverged, and also the one where Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer.
Ahhhh okay! And ha, yeah, I can see you guys talked about it but I can also see that I just didn't know enough to be able to absorb everything properly :)
The entire fic as well as the dialogue is carefully constructed to make it open to both interpretations.
...But yeah, it is heavily skewed to direct you toward my personal preference, which is why you remember it that way. :P
Ha! Yes, all right, I see that now. But yes, given that those bits are wholly in Fritz's POV... :P
So yeah, sorry for imprinting you before salon had read All The Things. :P
:)
I find masquerading (in any form, for any reason) far more interesting than sincere piety.
Not gonna lie, I read this sentence and my brain was like VOLTAIRE! :D But anyway, I find both interesting but in different ways, and they appeal to different parts of my psyche. Masquerading is certainly more intellectually interesting and stimulating to me, deist "defender of the Protestant faith" having texts read in the church about not suffering a woman to lead makes me laugh, lol, and sincere piety can easily be boring (I must reluctantly concede that I actually don't want fic about EC), but sometimes piety can be interesting.
Though in MT's case I think a large part of why I glommed onto her was not particularly her piety but because it was such a relief to find someone in this fandom who was from a vaguely-functional family (although I suppose she had her own problems, and she managed to mess up her kids a fair amount, at least they weren't... Hohenzollern problems).
So it wasn't all FW's example? At any rate, it's bittersweet to me that he was able to keep working up till the very end.
Yeah, I know we talked about this before a bit... But it just breaks my heart that FW was like "what a lazy kid I have" and, like, NO!
Not gonna lie, I read this sentence and my brain was like VOLTAIRE!
Not gonna lie, I had Voltaire on the brain when I wrote this! He went to Mass any number of times.
sometimes piety can be interesting.
I agree that it can be, but it's *generally* less interesting to me than cunning plans and ulterior motives, and certainly in this case. Which is why I'm disappointed and leaning toward ignoring the Hans Heinrich letters wherever possible. :P Or at least working around them.
Though in MT's case I think a large part of why I glommed onto her was not particularly her piety but because it was such a relief to find someone in this fandom who was from a vaguely-functional family (although I suppose she had her own problems, and she managed to mess up her kids a fair amount, at least they weren't... Hohenzollern problems).
What MT feels I do have are largely focused on her being a TERRIER. She has many other good traits, such as correcting her husband' spelling and snarking at Fritz's dirty laundry, total respect there. :P
Yeah, I know we talked about this before a bit... But it just breaks my heart that FW was like "what a lazy kid I have" and, like, NO!
I KNOW, RIGHT? He didn't know his kids, like, at all. Not even AW, clearly. :/
Ha! Yes, all right, I see that now. But yes, given that those bits are wholly in Fritz's POV... :P
Yeah, I was definitely wrong about Fritz's perspective on Katte's sincerity. I was drawing on his "it's easy to compel someone to profess religious beliefs, but you gain nothing from the empty words" quote, instead of the interrogation protocols about which I did not know yet.
But I totally left the fic ambiguous as to whether it's a ghost visitation or a fever/opium dream (even the tags!), and as you saw, I call out the ambiguity in that exchange by having Fritz say, "I knew it!" and Katte go, "I'm your dream. I am as you remember me." :P
And then, even waffling like that, I *still* managed to be wrong! GDI. :P
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: Austrian marriage plans
Date: 2021-02-20 05:52 pm (UTC)As Selena noted, this was from when she was reading Hinrichs' collected protocols of the 1730 trial for us, so back circa April of last year. (Actually, come to think of it, I might have spotted it first in Koser? But then the primary source turned up in Hinrichs.) We kind of went WTF at Katte insisting that Grumbkow and Seckendorff had this conspiracy to marry Fritz to a Catholic princess and Fritz, put on the spot, not being able to come up with anything better than, "What? Who said that? I never said that!" To which Katte, when questioned again, said Fritz *absolutely* said that. That was the one place where their stories diverged, and also the one where Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer.
We couldn't decide if Katte was trying to excuse Fritz to FW, or Fritz had lied to Katte to get him to agree to the escape, or there had been a misunderstanding, or what. We had this exchange:
And that bugged me, because it didn't jive with my picture of Katte. Until I read the Hans Heinrich letters. And then it made sense. And now I have to assume that Fritz lied, presumably because he was getting resistance from Katte on escaping, and Katte's religious fervor at the end was not only sincere but based on strong feelings before that fact.
It also suggests that the reason Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer when put on the spot at the trial was that he wasn't expecting this lie to come back and bite him. He may have blurted it out to Katte and forgotten he even said it? At any rate, it clearly didn't figure in his actual motives for escaping, so I can see why he had an "Oh shit" moment when they brought it up at the interrogation. Because as Selena points out, he's so consistently trying to exonerate Katte during the whole process, even before Katte's arrested. Starting with that very first conversation with Seckendorff, before Keith's disappearance was even noticed and the whole thing exploded into a conspiracy in FW's mind.
a) this had never occurred to me because I got imprinted by "Pulvis et Umbra," in which Katte is definitely not Protestant
Ah, ah! I actually deliberately left it ambiguous, because even then I conceded that didn't *know* whether Katte died with the fervor of a convert or was trying to appease FW. I actually gave it 50/50 in terms of what we know in real life. (My headcanon being something entirely different from my commitment to methodology as a scholar.) The entire fic as well as the dialogue is carefully constructed to make it open to both interpretations.
...But yeah, it is heavily skewed to direct you toward my personal preference, which is why you remember it that way. :P (The alternate interpretation was mostly there as a concession to my awareness that I might be wrong.)
But what I now have to say is actually completely wrong about that fic, is that in that fic Katte is definitely not a Protestant in Fritz's mind. Whereas now I have to conclude, based on Fritz lying to him, that Fritz knew full well that Katte was a Protestant at some level (possibly a questioning one, but clearly one biased against Catholics. Remember that Fritz is a deist in later life, and considers all religions delusions, but yet manages to be anti-Semitic because he's absorbed the biases of his Christian society; Katte might have done the same with Catholicism in his Protestant upbringing).
So yeah, sorry for imprinting you before salon had read All The Things. :P
I do sort of feel like this would explain some of Katte's last letter -
Well, considering it was not only composed by a preacher *and* in his handwriting, I was willing to write it off, but given the Hans Heinrich letters, I have to conclude the letter also isn't the complete fake I was hoping for.
I, uh, want this fanfic that goes into Fritz lying to Katte, which I know mildred will object to, but perhaps she can be content with the fact that this would actually help me ship it :P (yeah, [personal profile] selenak is a mean writer, I'm a mean reader *hides*)
So here I am to surprise you: I'm actually cool with that part! Fritz being a lying liar who lies is part of the reason I love him so much. It breaks my *heart* that he had to lie to get help, but we already knew he was getting so desperate and coming up with more and more wild ideas to escape because he wasn't getting support from the people closest to him. (Peter Keith is the last remaining candidate for someone who *might* have supported him from the beginning.)
But a story where Fritz has to lie to Katte is not a problem for me. (I've actually written snippets where Katte is trying to talk Fritz into staying, and I don't blame him for that nor Fritz for lying.)
The problem for me is Katte's final hours not being a masquerade for his and Fritz's fathers' benefit. I LIKED my headcanon!
I find masquerading (in any form, for any reason) far more interesting than sincere piety. This is why I find myself much more drawn to the deist "defender of the Protestant faith" having texts read in the church about not suffering a woman to lead, than to the actual pious woman who was doing the leading. (Not the misogyny; that part isn't attractive. But the hypocrisy--I love trickster figures.)
And I loved the thought that Katte was doing this *to protect Fritz*! That gave me so many feels.
I much preferred him having ulterior motives to being sincere. I've been grumbling ever since I read the Hans Heinrich letters and trying to figure out what to do about it.
Especially because part of "fix-it fic where they all escape to France and decide to stay there" is having to convert to at least nominal Catholicism. And I had Katte being all chill about it.
But maybe I can make it work by going with a headcanon according to which he's extremely questioning before his time in prison and death sentence, at which point he jumps back into the Protestant fold with a vengeance (there are atheists in foxholes, but I have to conclude Katte was not one), but has absorbed *societal* biases about the evils of Catholicism, like Fritz's anti-Semitism (and let's be real, probably Katte's unattested anti-Semitism as well :/).
So he puts up more resistance, but Fritz wins him over in the end, just like he did with the escape attempt.
Once more, I feel completely justified in the first of my Fritz/MT AUs. :)
Heeee! Well, yes :)
Yes, yes, yours are more justified than mine. :P
I... was looking for something else in salon recently and ended up rereading a comment thread about how Fritz basically worked up until the day he died. Following his father's example. This all makes me very sad :(
Yeah. If it's any comfort, he credited Wilhelmine with teaching him to love not only learning but work? But yeah, his father's example loomed large as well.
Not sure if this counts as comfort, I agree with Krockow that a lot of Fritz's inability to stop *doing things*, whatever things they were (work/studying/conversation/music/poetry), for five minutes, was driven by his inability to be alone with his thoughts, due to depression/PTSD. So it wasn't all FW's example? At any rate, it's bittersweet to me that he was able to keep working up till the very end.
Re: Austrian marriage plans
Date: 2021-02-21 12:40 am (UTC)Ahhhh okay! And ha, yeah, I can see you guys talked about it but I can also see that I just didn't know enough to be able to absorb everything properly :)
The entire fic as well as the dialogue is carefully constructed to make it open to both interpretations.
...But yeah, it is heavily skewed to direct you toward my personal preference, which is why you remember it that way. :P
Ha! Yes, all right, I see that now. But yes, given that those bits are wholly in Fritz's POV... :P
So yeah, sorry for imprinting you before salon had read All The Things. :P
:)
I find masquerading (in any form, for any reason) far more interesting than sincere piety.
Not gonna lie, I read this sentence and my brain was like VOLTAIRE! :D But anyway, I find both interesting but in different ways, and they appeal to different parts of my psyche. Masquerading is certainly more intellectually interesting and stimulating to me, deist "defender of the Protestant faith" having texts read in the church about not suffering a woman to lead makes me laugh, lol, and sincere piety can easily be boring (I must reluctantly concede that I actually don't want fic about EC), but sometimes piety can be interesting.
Though in MT's case I think a large part of why I glommed onto her was not particularly her piety but because it was such a relief to find someone in this fandom who was from a vaguely-functional family (although I suppose she had her own problems, and she managed to mess up her kids a fair amount, at least they weren't... Hohenzollern problems).
So it wasn't all FW's example? At any rate, it's bittersweet to me that he was able to keep working up till the very end.
Yeah, I know we talked about this before a bit... But it just breaks my heart that FW was like "what a lazy kid I have" and, like, NO!
Re: Austrian marriage plans
Date: 2021-02-21 12:49 am (UTC)Not gonna lie, I had Voltaire on the brain when I wrote this! He went to Mass any number of times.
sometimes piety can be interesting.
I agree that it can be, but it's *generally* less interesting to me than cunning plans and ulterior motives, and certainly in this case. Which is why I'm disappointed and leaning toward ignoring the Hans Heinrich letters wherever possible. :P Or at least working around them.
Though in MT's case I think a large part of why I glommed onto her was not particularly her piety but because it was such a relief to find someone in this fandom who was from a vaguely-functional family (although I suppose she had her own problems, and she managed to mess up her kids a fair amount, at least they weren't... Hohenzollern problems).
What MT feels I do have are largely focused on her being a TERRIER. She has many other good traits, such as correcting her husband' spelling and snarking at Fritz's dirty laundry, total respect there. :P
Yeah, I know we talked about this before a bit... But it just breaks my heart that FW was like "what a lazy kid I have" and, like, NO!
I KNOW, RIGHT? He didn't know his kids, like, at all. Not even AW, clearly. :/
Re: Austrian marriage plans
Date: 2021-02-21 12:57 am (UTC)Yeah, I was definitely wrong about Fritz's perspective on Katte's sincerity. I was drawing on his "it's easy to compel someone to profess religious beliefs, but you gain nothing from the empty words" quote, instead of the interrogation protocols about which I did not know yet.
But I totally left the fic ambiguous as to whether it's a ghost visitation or a fever/opium dream (even the tags!), and as you saw, I call out the ambiguity in that exchange by having Fritz say, "I knew it!" and Katte go, "I'm your dream. I am as you remember me." :P
And then, even waffling like that, I *still* managed to be wrong! GDI. :P