Long ago, during Yuletide when I got way behind on salon, I posted something I'd been reading, namely this anecdote about the lengths courtiers would go to to fight for the symbols of their rank at Versailles:
In 1699 several women of one particular court family, the Lorraine, tried to sit “above” the duchesses at a formal reception presided over by the young duchess of Burgundy, at the time the “first lady” of Versailles. They carried out this concerted and premeditated maneuver by arriving early in a group in order to occupy the stools arranged on the more “honorable” right side of the duchess’s armchair. Finding one duchess already seated there, the strongest and most aggressive of these women, the princesse d’Harcourt, wrestled her off her seat and sat down on it herself. When Saint-Simon’s duchess arrived, feeling unwell, she was reproved by one of the Lorraine women for sitting “above” her. Saint-Simon was so outraged when he heard that he risked the dangerous step of complaining to Louis XIV.
selenak wanted to know which one, "Given that FS' mother (Liselotte's daughter) was the Duchess of Lorraine, I mean."
The answer turns out to be: a distantly related, junior branch of the family, with a common ancestor only in the second half of the 15th century. (I mean, in the direct line of rulers of Lorraine: they no doubt had other common ancestors!) FS is descended from Antoine, the eldest son, who became duke of Lorraine; the stool-wrestling Lorraines in question were descended from Claude, the second son, who became the first duke of Guise (and his daughter, Marie de Guise, was thus the mother of Mary, Queen of Scots).
The relevant passage from Saint-Simon is this:
On the 6th of January, upon the reception of the ambassadors at the house of the Duchesse de Bourogogne, an adventure happened which I will here relate. M. de Lorraine belonged to a family which had been noted for its pretensions, and for the disputes of precedency in which it engaged. He was as prone to this absurdity as the rest, and on this occasion incited the Princesse d’Harcourt, one of his relations, to act in a manner that scandalised all the Court. Entering the room in which the ambassadors were to be received and where a large number of ladies were already collected, she glided behind the Duchesse de Rohan, and told her to pass to the left. The Duchesse de Rohan, much surprised, replied that she was very well placed already. Whereupon, the Princesse d’Harcourt, who was tall and strong, made no further ado, but with her two arms seized the Duchesse de Rohan, turned her round, and sat down in her place. All the ladies were strangely scandalised at this, but none dared say a word, not even Madame de Lude, lady in waiting on the Duchesse de Bourgogne, who, for her part also, felt the insolence of the act, but dared not speak, being so young. As for the Duchesse de Rohan, feeling that opposition must lead to fisticuffs, she curtseyed to the Duchess, and quietly retired to another place. A few minutes after this, Madame de Saint- Simon, who was then with child, feeling herself unwell, and tired of standing, seated herself upon the first cushion she could find. It so happened, that in the position she thus occupied, she had taken precedence of Madame d’Armagnac by two degrees. Madame d’Armagnac, perceiving it, spoke to her upon the subject. Madame de Saint-Simon, who had only placed herself there for a moment, did not reply, but went elsewhere.
The Princesse d’Harcourt in question doesn't seem to have a Wikipedia page of her own, either in English or in French, but her husband's is here, and a non-Wikipedia write-up quoting from Saint-Simon about how she was *terrible* is here. As the author of this write-up says, "How true those stories are in their details is hard to tell."
And thus I can finally check this November item off my list of comments I meant to reply to!
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timeasmymeasure
Versailles
Date: 2021-02-14 06:51 pm (UTC)In 1699 several women of one particular court family, the Lorraine, tried to sit “above” the duchesses at a formal reception presided over by the young duchess of Burgundy, at the time the “first lady” of Versailles. They carried out this concerted and premeditated maneuver by arriving early in a group in order to occupy the stools arranged on the more “honorable” right side of the duchess’s armchair. Finding one duchess already seated there, the strongest and most aggressive of these women, the princesse d’Harcourt, wrestled her off her seat and sat down on it herself. When Saint-Simon’s duchess arrived, feeling unwell, she was reproved by one of the Lorraine women for sitting “above” her. Saint-Simon was so outraged when he heard that he risked the dangerous step of complaining to Louis XIV.
The answer turns out to be: a distantly related, junior branch of the family, with a common ancestor only in the second half of the 15th century. (I mean, in the direct line of rulers of Lorraine: they no doubt had other common ancestors!) FS is descended from Antoine, the eldest son, who became duke of Lorraine; the stool-wrestling Lorraines in question were descended from Claude, the second son, who became the first duke of Guise (and his daughter, Marie de Guise, was thus the mother of Mary, Queen of Scots).
The relevant passage from Saint-Simon is this:
On the 6th of January, upon the reception of the ambassadors at the house of the Duchesse de Bourogogne, an adventure happened which I will here relate. M. de Lorraine belonged to a family which had been noted for its pretensions, and for the disputes of precedency in which it engaged. He was as prone to this absurdity as the rest, and on this occasion incited the Princesse d’Harcourt, one of his relations, to act in a manner that scandalised all the Court. Entering the room in which the ambassadors were to be received and where a large number of ladies were already collected, she glided behind the Duchesse de Rohan, and told her to pass to the left. The Duchesse de Rohan, much surprised, replied that she was very well placed already. Whereupon, the Princesse d’Harcourt, who was tall and strong, made no further ado, but with her two arms seized the Duchesse de Rohan, turned her round, and sat down in her place. All the ladies were strangely scandalised at this, but none dared say a word, not even Madame de Lude, lady in waiting on the Duchesse de Bourgogne, who, for her part also, felt the insolence of the act, but dared not speak, being so young. As for the Duchesse de Rohan, feeling that opposition must lead to fisticuffs, she curtseyed to the Duchess, and quietly retired to another place. A few minutes after this, Madame de Saint- Simon, who was then with child, feeling herself unwell, and tired of standing, seated herself upon the first cushion she could find. It so happened, that in the position she thus occupied, she had taken precedence of Madame d’Armagnac by two degrees. Madame d’Armagnac, perceiving it, spoke to her upon the subject. Madame de Saint-Simon, who had only placed herself there for a moment, did not reply, but went elsewhere.
The Princesse d’Harcourt in question doesn't seem to have a Wikipedia page of her own, either in English or in French, but her husband's is here, and a non-Wikipedia write-up quoting from Saint-Simon about how she was *terrible* is here. As the author of this write-up says, "How true those stories are in their details is hard to tell."
And thus I can finally check this November item off my list of comments I meant to reply to!