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cahnAll Yuletide requests are out!
Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!
-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)
Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!
-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French
-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...
Master link to Frederick the Great posts and associated online links
Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!
-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)
Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!
-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French
-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...
Master link to Frederick the Great posts and associated online links
Frederick and Poland
Date: 2019-11-06 09:02 pm (UTC)Frederick: And now the king of Poland has died like a fool! I do not like these people who do everything at the wrong time.
Ghost of August III: >:(
In 1769, Friedrich began a work, Le Chant de Confédérés, on the Confederation of Bar in P-L. He depicts the Bishop of Kiev as a crazed bigot with a library whihc has no books, only relics and a painting depicting the St. Bartholemew's Day massacre in France. The Bishop of Kiev was Józef Andrzej Załuski, who was co-founder of the first public library in the Commonwealth and one of the first public libraries in Europe in general.
Władysław Konopczyński wrote a whole book (though not a long one) about Fritz and Poland. He mentions a work from 1779, L’ Orangoutang de l'Europe, alleging the Poles were descended from orangutans (not a general human evolution argument; it was not applied to other nations) and says that it was ascribed by contemporary opinion to Frederick's authorship. Later though, an officer expelled from the Corps de Cadets in Warsaw for theft, a man named Kermorwand, has been blamed. Apparently it was based on a lecture given at the Berlin Academy the decade before - by a Polish woman.
Re: Frederick and Poland
Date: 2019-11-07 05:35 pm (UTC)Frederick: And now the king of Poland has died like a fool! I do not like these people who do everything at the wrong time.
Ghost of August III: >:(
HEE.
Oh Fritz, you are so... Fritzian. ...Why did he depict the Bishop of Kiev like that? Had he ever met him? Did he just not like Zaluski?
no subject
Date: 2019-11-07 12:30 am (UTC)~/Downloads/cahn_comments_script$ ./word_counts.sh refresh
Refreshing counts......
User | Words | Comments
---------------------------------------------
mildred 110119 474
selenak 80117 247
cahn 23352 300
deathsblood 603 2
taelle 582 4
Word Total: 214773
Comment Total: 1027
Maybe next time I'll get it to do some html formatting, so it displays better in DW. It's currently formatted for my terminal (and very nice it looks there indeed).
Now back to trying to figure out if I can do a Yuletide treat. Crackfic will have to wait. :DD
no subject
Date: 2019-11-07 05:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-07 09:41 pm (UTC)So pulling one comment out of context and presenting it in isolation means some background needs to be supplied, as you found when you tried to link to my Austrian Succession chronology, which presupposed an understanding of the Pragmatic Sanction. So editing would be a non-trivial endeavor, and I'm not sure it would be as much fun.
Anyway, we have produced a performance art-style book for you, and I'm glad you've found it so enjoyable. :D
no subject
Date: 2019-11-09 10:08 pm (UTC)It really is a performance-art-style book! I keep being totally awed by it.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-09 10:34 pm (UTC)How does D feel about the fact that we're still going? :P
no subject
Date: 2019-11-12 09:14 pm (UTC)Casanova
Date: 2019-11-08 04:07 am (UTC)That is amazing and while I am sure it must have been stressful, I kind of love that detail. Holy cow.
It gets better! Casanova's memoirs provide an amazing example of what happens when you *don't* get a chance to study and it's pop quiz time! I'm going to quote at length from his memoirs here, because they're so readable, and he does a great job of conveying just how stressful it was.
When I got home I wrote a plain but respectful letter to the king, asking where and at what time I could introduce myself to him.
In two days I received a letter signed 'Frederick,' in which the receipt of my letter was acknowledged, and I was told that I should find his majesty in the garden of Sans-Souci at four o’clock.
As may be imagined I was punctual to my appointment. I was at Sans-Souci at three, clad in a simple black dress. When I got into the court-yard there was not so much as a sentinel to stop me, so I went on mounted a stair, and opened a door in front of me. I found myself in a picture-gallery, and the curator came up to me and offered to shew me over it.
“I have not come to admire these masterpieces,” I replied, “but to see the king, who informed me in writing that I should find him in the garden.”
“He is now at a concert playing the flute; he does so every day after dinner. Did he name any time?”
“Yes, four o’clock, but he will have forgotten that.”
“The king never forgets anything; he will keep the appointment, and you will do well to go into the garden and await him.”
I had been in the garden for some minutes when I saw him appear, followed by his reader and a pretty spaniel. As soon as he saw me he accosted me, taking off his old hat, and pronouncing my name. Then he asked in a terrible voice what I wanted of him. This greeting surprised me, and my voice stuck in my throat.
“Well, speak out. Are you not the person who wrote to me?”
“Yes, sire, but I have forgotten everything now. I thought that I should not be awed by the majesty of a king, but I was mistaken. My lord-marshal should have warned me.”
“Then he knows you? Let us walk. What is it that you want? What do you think of my garden?”
His enquiries after my needs and of his garden were simultaneous. To any other person I should have answered that I did not know anything about gardening, but this would have been equivalent to refusing to answer the question; and no monarch, even if he be a philosopher, could endure that. I therefore replied that I thought the garden superb.
“But,” he said, “the gardens of Versailles are much finer.”
“Yes, sire, but that is chiefly on account of the fountains.”
“True, but it is not my fault; there is no water here. I have spent more than three hundred thousand crowns to get water, but unsuccessfully.”
“Three hundred thousand crowns, sire! If your majesty had spent them all at once, the fountains should be here.”
“Oh, oh! I see you are acquainted with hydraulics.”
I could not say that he was mistaken, for fear of offending him, so I simply bent my head, which might mean either yes or no. Thank God the king did not trouble to test my knowledge of the science of hydraulics, with which I was totally unacquainted.
He kept on the move all the time, and as he turned his head from one side to the other hurriedly asked me what forces Venice could put into the field in war time.
“Twenty men-of-war, sire, and a number of galleys.”
“What are the land forces?”
“Seventy thousand men, sire; all of whom are subjects of the Republic, and assessing each village at one man.”
“That is not true; no doubt you wish to amuse me by telling me these fables. Give me your opinions on taxation.”
This was the first conversation I had ever had with a monarch. I made a rapid review of the situation, and found myself much in the same position as an actor of the improvised comedy of the Italians, who is greeted by the hisses of the gods if he stops short a moment. I therefore replied with all the airs of a doctor of finance that I could say something about the theory of taxation.
“That’s what I want,” he replied, “for the practice is no business of yours.”
“There are three kinds of taxes, considered as to their effects. The first is ruinous, the second a necessary evil, and the third invariably beneficial.”
“Good! Go on.”
“The ruinous impost is the royal tax, the necessary is the military, and the beneficial is the popular.”
As I had not given the subject any thought I was in a disagreeable position, for I was obliged to go on speaking, and yet not to talk nonsense.
“The royal tax, sire, is that which deplenishes the purses of the subject to fill the coffers of the king.”
“And that kind of tax is always ruinous, you think.”
“Always, sire; it prevents the circulation of money—the soul of commerce and the mainstay of the state.”
“But if the tax be levied to keep up the strength of the army, you say it is a necessary evil.”
“Yes, it is necessary and yet evil, for war is an evil.”
“Quite so; and now about the popular tax.”
“This is always a benefit, for the monarch takes with one hand and gives with the other; he improves towns and roads, founds schools, protects the sciences, cherishes the arts; in fine, he directs this tax towards improving the condition and increasing the happiness of his people.”
“There is a good deal of truth in that. I suppose you know Calsabigi?”
“I ought to, your majesty, as he and I established the Genoa Lottery at Paris seven years ago.”
“In what class would you put this taxation, for you will agree that it is taxation of a kind?”
“Certainly, sire, and not the least important. It is beneficial when the monarch spends his profits for the good of the people.”
“But the monarch may lose?”
“Once in fifty.”
“Is that conclusion the result of a mathematical calculation?”
“Yes, sire.”
“Such calculations often prove deceptive.”
“Not so, may it please your majesty, when God remains neutral.”
“What has God got to do with it?”
“Well, sire, we will call it destiny or chance.”
“Good! I may possibly be of your opinion as to the calculation, but I don’t like your Genoese Lottery. It seems to me an elaborate swindle, and I would have nothing more to do with it, even if it were positively certain that I should never lose.”
“Your majesty is right, for the confidence which makes the people risk their money in a lottery is perfectly fallacious.”
This was the end of our strange dialogue, and stopping before a building he looked me over, and then, after a short silence, observed,—
“Do you know that you are a fine man?”
“Is it possible that, after the scientific conversation we have had, your majesty should select the least of the qualities which adorn your life guardsmen for remark?”
The king smiled kindly, and said,—
“As you know Marshal Keith, I will speak to him of you.”
With that he took off his hat, and bade me farewell. I retired with a profound bow.
Three or four days after the marshal gave me the agreeable news that I had found favour in the king’s eyes, and that his majesty thought of employing me.
I was curious to learn the nature of this employment, and being in no kind of hurry I resolved to await events in Berlin.
[Buuut, then, he nopes right out of Fritz-as-boss.]
Five or six weeks after my curious conversation with the monarch, Marshal Keith told me that his majesty had been pleased to create me a tutor to the new corps of Pomeranian cadets which he was just establishing. There were to be fifteen cadets and five tutors, so that each should have the care of three pupils. The salary was six hundred crowns and board found. The duty of the tutors was to follow or accompany the cadets wherever they went, Court included. I had to be quick in making up my mind, for the four others were already installed, and his majesty did not like to be kept waiting. I asked Lord Keith where the college was, and I promised to give him a reply by the next day.
I had to summon all my powers of self-restraint to my assistance when I heard this extravagant proposal as coming from a man who was so discreet in most things, but my astonishment was increased when I saw the abode of these fifteen young noblemen of rich Pomerania. It consisted of three or four great rooms almost devoid of furniture, several whitewashed bedrooms, containing a wretched bed, a deal table, and two deal chairs. The young cadets, boys of twelve or thirteen, all looked dirty and untidy, and were boxed up in a wretched uniform which matched admirably their rude and rustic faces. They were in company with their four governors, whom I took for their servants, and who looked at me in a stupefied manner, not daring to think that I was to be their future colleague.
Just as I was going to bid an eternal farewell to this abode of misery, one of the governors put his head out of the window and exclaimed,—
“The king is riding up.”
I could not avoid meeting him, and besides, I was glad enough to see him again, especially in such a place.
His majesty came up with his friend Icilius, examined everything, and saw me, but did not honour me with a word. I was elegantly dressed, and wore my cross set with brilliants. But I had to bite my lips so as not to burst out laughing when Frederick the Great got in a towering rage at a chamber utensil which stood beside one of the beds, and which did not appear to be in a very cleanly condition.
“Whose bed is this?” cried the monarch.
“Mine, sire,” answered a trembling cadet.
“Good! but it is not you I am angry with; where is your governor?”
The fortunate governor presented himself, and the monarch, after honouring him with the title of blockhead, proceeded to scold him roundly. However, he ended by saying that there was a servant, and that the governor ought to see that he did his work properly. This disgusting scene was enough for me, and I hastened to call on Marshal Keith to announce my determination. The old soldier laughed at the description I gave him of the academy, and said I was quite right to despise such an office; but that I ought, nevertheless, to go and thank the king before I left Berlin. I said I did not feel inclined for another interview with such a man, and he agreed to present my thanks and excuses in my stead.
I made up my mind to go to Russia, and began my preparations in good earnest.
[OMG, run away, run away!]
Baron Bodisson, a Venetian who wanted to sell the king a picture by Andrea del Sarto, asked me to come with him to Potsdam and the desire of seeing the monarch once again made me accept the invitation. When I reached Potsdam I went to see the parade at which Frederick was nearly always to be found. When he saw me he came up and asked me in a familiar manner when I was going to start for St. Petersburg.
“In five or six days, if your majesty has no objection.”
“I wish you a pleasant journey; but what do you hope to do in that land?”
“What I hoped to do in this land, namely, to please the sovereign.”
“Have you got an introduction to the empress?”
“No, but I have an introduction to a banker.”
“Ah! that’s much better. If you pass through Prussia on your return I shall be delighted to hear of your adventures in Russia.”
“Farewell, sire.”
Such was the second interview I had with this great king, whom I never saw again.
Does anyone else find this as hilarious as I do?
[Catt: And this is why I always take notes! (Catt observes in his memoirs that after the first year or so, he finally felt equal to the task of having a conversation with Fritz without freaking out, so his diary became less minute. Lol everyone.)]
Also, the Gutenberg copy of Casanova's memoirs has this delightful note at the beginning: "[Transcriber’s Note: These memoires were not written for children, they may outrage readers also offended by Chaucer, La Fontaine, Rabelais and The Old Testament. D.W.]"
I need to finish Wilhelmine's memoirs and also a few other items on my two other items on my 18th century to-read list, but Casanova's memoirs look fascinating. I might actually read them properly.
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-08 04:20 am (UTC)Casanova does it too! Excerpted in full again:
My intimacy with Madame Denis commenced. One night when I was supping with her she was seized with convulsions which lasted all the night. I did not leave her for a moment, and in the morning, feeling quite recovered, her gratitude finished what my love had begun twenty-six years before, and our amorous commerce lasted while I stayed at Berlin. We shall hear of her again at Florence six years later.
Some days after Madame Denis took me to Potsdam to shew me all the sights of the town. Our intimacy offended no one, for she was generally believed to be my niece, and the general who kept her either believed the report, or like a man of sense pretended to believe it.
Amongst other notable things I saw at Potsdam was the sight of the king commanding the first battalion of his grenadiers, all picked men, the flower of the Prussian army.
The room which we occupied at the inn faced a walk by which the king passed when he came from the castle. The shutters were all closed, and our landlady told us that on one occasion when a pretty dancer called La Reggiana was sleeping in the same room, the king had seen her in ‘puris naturalibus’. This was too much for his modesty, and he had ordered the shutters to be closed, and closed they had remained, though this event was four years old. The king had some cause to fear, for he had been severely treated by La Barbarina. In the king’s bedroom we saw her portrait, that of La Cochois, sister to the actress who became Marchioness d’Argens, and that of Marie Theresa, with whom Frederick had been in love, or rather he had been in love with the idea of becoming emperor.
After we had admired the beauty and elegance of the castle, we could not help admiring the way in which the master of the castle was lodged. He had a mean room, and slept on a little bed with a screen around it. There was no dressing-gown and no slippers. The valet shewed us an old cap which the king put on when he had a cold; it looked as if it must be very uncomfortable. His majesty’s bureau was a table covered with pens, paper, half-burnt manuscripts, and an ink-pot; beside it was a sofa. The valet told us that these manuscripts contained the history of the last Prussian war, and the king had been so annoyed by their accidentally getting burnt that he had resolved to have no more to do with the work. He probably changed his mind, for the book, which is little esteemed, was published shortly after his death.
Madame Denis: Marie Louise Mignot, literary figure in her own right, Voltaire's niece and lover--yes, you read that right.
Portrait of MT in Fritz's bedroom: Who else thinks it was a portrait of someone else and Fritz told his staff to troll visitors by saying it was a young MT? :P
Also, here we have yet another reference to that old marriage AU!
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-08 07:14 am (UTC)Incest: just a thing in this era. Given Casanova in his later life had a one night stand with an old flame of his and their mutual (adult) daughter, he certainly wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow.
The memoirs are a treasure trove for period detail, observations on interesting people all over the continent and of course his own life (as remembered as a librarian in Bohemia). Occasionally also horrifying not necessarily for the reason the people of his era would have considered it to be so. Starting with his childhood; he’s the oldest son of a singer/actress and her less successful husband who’s also an actor because she’s, and simultanously admiring and deeply resentful of his glamorous mother, so he doesn’t speak until he’s about eight (and is considered dumb accordingly), and then he doesn’t shut up. Which gets him his mother’s interest in as much as she pays for his schooling in Padua (since he’s not so dumb after all), but not so much that she considers taking him with her on her tours through Europe (as opposed to a younger brother and sister - of several, the other siblings end up with their grandmother, the dad is already dead). What also happens in Padua before he’s even hit puberty: he gets fingered by his teacher’s sister. This to contemporary readers looked like “lucky dog, early initiation, eh” and to us like “child molestation much?”. And so forth.
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-09 10:18 pm (UTC)Portrait of MT in Fritz’ bedroom
Date: 2019-11-08 08:01 am (UTC)I think it’s quite likely that Fritz wanted to troll people, and possibly (while she was still alive) MT herself if reports get to her, and yes, period portraits look very similar to us, what with the wigs and the beauty ideals needing to be observed, but just for the sake of argument: MT was actually one of the few people whose portrait would have been recognizable to people within the HRE. Partly due to Fritz. Because those portraits of her and her family were a loyalty declaration, just as Fritz’ portraits were. For example, recently I was at the castle in Würzburg, which at the relevant era was held by the Schönborn family (v important Catholic family through several centuries all over the HRE and there’s a cardinal von Schönborn in Vienna even now), and sure enough, there was MT, both young and old, and Joseph (younger), too. For non-nobles, there were prints.
Now how much those portraits actually resembled the person - shrug. (Though I’d say Wilhelmine’s pastel is recognizable MT if you’ve seen some of her other portraits.) But they certainly had created an iconic look, identifiable to the casual observer.
(BTW, I was v amused at Fritz complimenting MT on her complexion in the crack fic, ,because, Cahn, that’s another insult if you consider the Prussian ambassador wrote to Fritz she was ruining her face with all that outdoorsy stuff. (Remember the period ideal for female skin was soft, white and rosy, not tanned and wind-weathered!)
Re: Portrait of MT in Fritz’ bedroom
Date: 2019-11-08 08:20 am (UTC)Now, of course Fritz may actually have had a portrait of MT in his room! For trolling, for gloating, for coming across as superior for having defeated such a worthy ally and for treating her with such "respect", for many reasons. But I also like the idea of him testing people's gullibility. :P
(BTW, I was v amused at Fritz complimenting MT on her complexion in the crack fic, ,because, Cahn, that’s another insult if you consider the Prussian ambassador wrote to Fritz she was ruining her face with all that outdoorsy stuff. (Remember the period ideal for female skin was soft, white and rosy, not tanned and wind-weathered!)
Indeed, that was intended to be an insult on more than one level, disguised as a compliment. :D I had fun with that one.
Re: Portrait of MT in Fritz’ bedroom
Date: 2019-11-09 10:19 pm (UTC)Icilius
Date: 2019-11-08 04:21 am (UTC)They had another argument at some point, which Fritz won. Guichard insisted that the Roman soldier carried more weight on a march than the Prussian soldier and that therefore the Romans were superior. Well, you can imagine how Fritz reacted to that. He made Guichard put on the full kit of a Prussian soldier and stand at attention for an hour. Guichard found the task so difficult that he had to take back what he'd said. He was furious with Fritz, but, really, what did he expect?
Re: Icilius
Date: 2019-11-09 10:20 pm (UTC)Re: Icilius
Date: 2019-11-09 10:29 pm (UTC)Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-09 10:15 pm (UTC)Thank God the king did not trouble to test my knowledge of the science of hydraulics, with which I was totally unacquainted.
HAHAHAHA
This also all sounds completely Fritzian, blaming everyone else for his fountains and so on,and pop quizzing him, and...
Casanova also sounds like a hilarious writer in general. I should look up his memoirs.
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-09 10:21 pm (UTC)The pop quiz is total Fritz, though. You see it over and over again when people meet with him.
Yeah, Casanova sounds great. He's on my list now.
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-10 07:49 am (UTC)“Do you know that you are a fine man?”
pfff, English translator. My German translation has "beautiful man" here, and I believe Fritz does say "beau homme", not "gentil" or whatever in the original.
The history of the Memoires de ma vie manuscript is also fascinating. Casanova started to write them in 1789, the year of the revolution. He did mean them for publication, hence the French, and there were some early readers like the Duc de Ligne (not his boss), but he couldn't find a publisher agreeing to his terms, though he pitched it to, among others, a Saxon in Dresden ("what do you mean, a cut version in only three volumes?!? I've written twelve!") within his life time. When he died in 1790, the husband of one of his nieces who'd been in Dresden on business before hearing old Giacomo was in a bad state of health and hence could make the journey to Bohemia was present, and returned with the complete Histoire de ma vie manuscript to Dresden. When he died, his daughter Camilla inherited the manuscript. By now we're in 1821, and Camilla, no fool she, decides to go for broke and sell it to the highest bidder among publishers.
The race is made by Brockhaus in Leipzig, most famous these days for publishing the standard German spelling dictionary for the last 150 plus years. Brockhaus, now the proud owner of the manuscript, first goes for a "Best of Casanova" one volume German translation, then, when there's an illegal supposed complete French edition publishes a complete twelve volume German edition of their own. But! The dastardly German translator doesn't send four chapters of the manuscript he's been entrusted with back to the publisher once he's done; these remain lost to this day, and hence exist only in translation.
The rest of the original manuscript gets put into a safe in the Brockhaus main building in Leipzig and remains there until 1943. At which point allied bombings have reached the Eastern German cities, and the publishers want to protect the Histoire de ma vie, along with some other manuscript treasures, for posterity, so it's off to a bunker with the manuscript. Where it stays until the last days of the war, when the Red Army is approaching. The Brockhaus publishing staff goes west, but with the manuscript, and relocates to Wiesbaden (in the US sector), where the Memoirs are kept in a safe of Deutsche Bank, one of the few institutions still to have one in 1945.
Until the 1950s, everyone at newly relocated Brockhaus is a bit paranoid about this particular manuscript by now and refuses access to it. Then, in 1960, they strike a deal with the French publisher Edition Plons which leads to the first complete (minus four chapters) authentic publication of the Histoire de ma vie in the original French. And in 2010, the Bibliothèque Nationale de France acquires the original manuscript for over seven million Euro, the highest price this particular national library has ever paid for a single manuscript, which is thus now owned by the French nation.
ETA: Mildred, Cahn, which English translation doesm Gutenberg use? Because English wiki has this to say on the problem of English Casanova translations:
Due to the success of the (first) German edition, the French editor Victor Tournachon decided to publish the book in France. Tournachon had no access to the original manuscript, and so the French text of his edition was translated from the German translation. The text was heavily censored. In response to the piracy Brockhaus brought out a second edition in French, edited by Jean Laforgue (1782–1852) which was very unreliable as Laforgue altered Casanova's religious and political views as well as censoring sexual references. The French volumes were published from 1826 to 1838. These editions were also successful, and another French pirate edition was prepared with another translation from the German edition. As the German edition was not entirely published at this time, this edition allegedly contains passages invented by the (French) translator.
From 1838 to 1960, all the editions of the memoirs were derived from one of these editions. Arthur Machen used one of these inaccurate versions for his English translation published in 1894 which remained the standard English edition for many years.
Now, at a guess, Gutenberg does not use any post 1960 English translation, do they?
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-12 09:38 pm (UTC)I believe Fritz does say "beau homme", not "gentil"
Hm. I will cut the translator a little more slack than you -- American English, at least, doesn't really say "beautiful man" the way that the French (and Germans?) say "beau homme." The closest translation might be "handsome man" or "good-looking man," although that doesn't really have the same connotation, and "fine-looking man" might actually be fairly close (though "fine" alone does tend to make one think of virtues other than one's looks, so I see your point).
Gutenberg uses the Arthur Machen translation, yuuuuup. Right -- note to self to buy a newer translation if/when I end up reading this. (And yes, in general, Gutenberg would have to be < 1960 for copyright.)
this edition allegedly contains passages invented by the (French) translator.
lol, wow!! That's... not something I'm used to seeing from a translator :)
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-14 03:28 pm (UTC)(Now what really gets debated is whether Napoleon's remark about Goethe upon meeting him - "Voilà un homme" - should have the "homme" translated as "Mann" or "Mensch", i.e. "man" or "human being" - could be either in French.) :)
#FrenchGermanTranslations
Re: the alterations in Casanova's original text - blame the 19th century mores again. I remember an article that lists the most annoying examples, I shall see whether I can find it for you.
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-15 10:58 am (UTC)Thank you for sharing the history of the memoirs. That was super fascinating, even without the warning that I'm reading a very bastardized copy if I read the Gutenberg one.
That's... not something I'm used to seeing from a translator :)
Yeah, it was a *thing*. I would love to see the list if
Re "fine", when I read that, I took it as meaning "good-looking" in rather old-fashioned English, and the Oxford English Dictionary agrees with me: "Of a person or thing: remarkably attractive; good-looking. Now somewhat dated, except U.S. slang (originally and chiefly African-American), of a person: sexually attractive," with examples of the older meaning up to the early 20th century. So since the Machen translation is over 100 years old, I'm willing to go with "good-looking" as the originally intended meaning.
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-15 05:43 pm (UTC)I just did a search on amazon, and it's kind of amazing how little there is in the way of Casanova that isn't the bastardized version (and in particular, that none of it seems to be available in e-book).
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-22 05:57 pm (UTC)La Nuit de Varennes, English title, That Night in Varennes. An Italian-French film, directed by Ettore Scola, with a first class cast, including Jean-Louis Barrault, Marcello Mastroianni, Hanna Schygulla and Harvey Keitel; it starts during the night from June 20th to June 21st 1791, which was when King Louis XVI and family made a run for it only to be captured a night later at Varennes. However, we don't see the Royals at all, except bits and pieces near the end; the film follows a different coach, travelling close behind, in wich there is a mixture of actual and invented characters, including Thomas Paine (aka why they hired Keitel), Giacomo Casanova (three guesses as to whom Marcello is playing), Restif de la Bretonne (as a girl, I thought he was invented, but no, he existed (a French novelist about whom more here, though I have to say, the German wiki entry is way more informative than the English one) played by one of the all time French theatre legends, Barrault, as well as a revolutionary student, an Italian singer, a rich widow, a countess who is friends wiith Marie Antoinette (Schygulla), a magistrate and a wealthy entrepeneur. And thus we get a historical road movie about the world that was and the world that will be, and Ettore Scola does a really great job showing both why there has to be a revolution and what will be lost with it. It's a witty script, the acting is great, and basically I have just one nitpick.
The later first: on the plus side, all the female characters except for the Countess' black maid (not a big part, but with her mini arc) are in their early 40s at least, and you sigh enviously and think, ah for the days with films with lots roles for actresses over 40 or in their very late 30s who aren't anyone's mother and aren't forced to play ingenues, either. (This particular film is from 1982, btw.) On the minus side, the men have the better lines and their own agendas, while the women, with the possible exception of the Italian singer (played by Laura Betti) who is very much her own person and while travelling with a (married) lover treats him as almost incidental and has most of her scenes with other people, either long for love or follow someone else's.
Something I hadn't remembered from my girlish watching and thought would make a complaint but instead turned into a virtue of the film when I saw it again on dvd: the treatment of Monsieur Jakob, the Countess' sidekick (played by Jean-Claude Brialy). At first I thought he was another example of the camp and gay servant as comic relief, but lo and behold, the film then later treated him with unexpected tenderness and dignity. So does the aged Casanova, on whom he crushes (as does the rich widow). Incidentally, and speaking of Casanova, I did remember this was probably my favourite fictional treatment of him (closely followed by the Tennant/O'Toole double act for Russell T. Davies, and Alain Delon) and it held up magnificently. It's a remarkably unvain performance by Marcello Mastroianni, because Casanova is supposed to be over 70 and looking like it, escaping one last time from his existence as a librarian in Bohemia; the camera exposes all the ravages of time and the script thematisizes Casanova's aging. And yet it never ridicules him, either, giving him a weary elegance, ongoing wit and hardwon wisdom as he gently lets the widow after she offers herself down by pointing out that what she really wants isn't the old man in front of her but the legend. And, which brings me back to Jacob the gay footman, in the way he responds to Jacob (who crushed on him through the film) saying as a farewell that he wishes they could have met when they were both younger by kissing him thoroughly as a farewell present, the only person whom Casanova kisses in this film despite the presence of three attractive ladies in the coach. (In the lengthy interview on the dvd, Ettore Scola says Brialy enjoyed that scene very much because "Marcello put his all into each take".)
Casanova is of course a creature of the Ancient Regime, impossible in the developing new world (and very aware of it), while the other two writers, Restif de La Bretonne (only a decade younger, but looking forward to the new time) and Thomas Paine belong to the new age. Restif is basically our point of view character throughout the film, and this brings me to my one occasional being thrown out of the story problem, there's a two or three minutes of a scene early on which makes it clear he's having a sexual relationship with his daughter. Now, the film didn't make that up. According to the German wiki entry, he did have an affair with said daughter. But unlike, say, Der Thronfolger bringing this up about Orzelska, there is nothing in the movie indicating there might be a problem with that. (Der Thronfolger has Wilhelmine reacting and later the neatly ambigous "Do you love your father?" "Do you love yours?" exchange between her and Fritz). And I'm not really able to swallow "this amusing fellow is a writer of social critisim, erotic novels, had shoe fetishm named after him, and oh, he also sleeps with his daughter" without going ?!!!!!? and being thrown out of the narrative presenting this as just another of Restif's excentricities. It's not brought up again for the rest of the movie (which takes place on the road between Paris and Varennes) and the (adult, and presented as willing) daughter doesn't show up again, either, but despite really liking the film, I nonetheless on this rewatch never managed to get completely over my double take.
I actually am not fond of Hanna Schygulla as an actress in general, but she was perfect for this particular role as the Countess, an ardent monarchist unwilling to believe the people aren't really rooting for their king, and that it's not just a few discontents in the capital making all the trouble. The other two adherrents to the old order are the magistrate who is just offended by all the chaos and unrulyness and Casanova who is sarcastic about kings and nobles as well but basically misses his youth and thus longs for the world as it had been when he was young, increasingly aware that he has no place in the new one so that librarian for a Bohemian duke is the only thing left. But the Countess is the only monarchist who is passionate about the actual royals, and even she, as it turns out, is in love with an idea rather than the reality.
The film actually makes no judgments on either the republicans nor the monarchists and takes Restif's position of just wanting to experience and chronicle the times, but it offers a few digs at the then present, as when Thomas Paine (who will be imprisoned later during the Terreur, but the film doesn't do any cheap foreshadowing of this) talks with the industrialist about whether or not the new French Revolution is the logical follower of the American Revolution. Paine is all for it and his fellow traveller points out that "your countrymen at the embassy" don't think so and have already turned away from the revolutionary spirit and prefering to embrace conservatism instead now they're rid of the Brits. Meanwhile, Restif predicts an European Union in 1991 which for a film made in 1982 is pretty impressive. There are also a few breakings of the fourth wall which the interviewer on the dvd when talking with the director calls Brechtian but I'm more tempted to call Pratchettian because they resemble Terry Prattchet's type of footnotes far more than Brecht's illusion-breaking.
Best entirely-possible-but-who'd-have-thought-of-it? gag/sequence that captures the vivacity and charm of the film: Casanova and the Italian singer, when strolling with the other travellers through the woods for a bit, improvising a duet from Mozart's Don Giovanni (or rather, making an aria into a duet) which as Casanova (historically correctly) mentions he saw the premiere performance of in Prague. I tried to find it on Youtube for you,
Re: Casanova
Date: 2019-11-25 08:38 pm (UTC)I mean, this all sounds great, but
improvising a duet from Mozart's Don Giovanni (or rather, making an aria into a duet) which as Casanova (historically correctly) mentions he saw the premiere performance of in Prague
...I am all about this, as you knew I would be :D
Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-08 04:33 am (UTC)Maupertuis (remember Maupertuis? Captured by Austrians when joining Fritz on campaign, president of the Academy of Sciences in Berlin, quarreled with Voltaire?), back in 1736 (aka when Fritz was still Crown Prince), went on an Arctic expedition to Lapland.
The reason is actually kinda cool. You know how the Earth bulges at the center and is kind of flat on the top, because of gravity and rotation and all that? Whether it was bulging at the center, or stretched out toward the poles like an egg, was a big scientific debate at the time. Maupertuis was convinced it was the former, so he led an expedition in the direction of the North Pole to take measurements. This expedition ended up proving him right.
Anyway, Algarotti was invited to help take measurements and also write poetry to immortalize and popularize the expedition. Which is pretty cool, because not everyone is qualified to be the scientist and the poet of the expedition.
Unfortunately, posterity didn't always appreciate Algarotti's polymathy. The Algarotti dissertation recounts a scene from a novel written in 1869:
"In a scene that is set in 1750, a party is held in honour of Algarotti's arrival in Venice. In it, one of the characters asks to know who the 'pallid, skinny little thing with the necklace, the medallions, and the cross on his chest' is. He is told that this person is Algarotti, who is then described with a touch of sarcasm as, 'member of all the universities, and of all the academies that ever were, that are, and that ever will be; astronomer, poet, painter, architect, violinist...Of many people it is usual to ask what they are...in his case, one ought rather to ask what he is not.'"
As someone who was given a good-natured ribbing by a fellow student in high school for monopolizing all the prizes and awards, to the point of being accused of being named "best male athlete" (I was neither male nor an athlete--although the track coach tried to recruit me for four years: I was notoriously faster than the male athletes)...I sympathize, Algarotti. I will join you in "Posterity: Mildred who?" land. <3
Long tangent: the reason Algarotti didn't end up going to Lapland with Maupertuis was that he was choosing between this offer and a simultaneous offer to come live with Voltaire and Émilie du Châtelet. He ended up choosing the latter, which was kind of interesting.
Voltaire was jealous, saying that if it weren't so cold, he would have accepted a position as poet, if he had been invited. [Me: That's a lot of "if"s, Voltaire.] But since it was cold and he wasn't invited, he and du Châtelet were like, "Pleeeeease, pleeeease come live with us! We love you forever! We're way better than Lapland! We will appreciate you like you deserve!"
They won, but Algarotti ended up staying with them for only 6 weeks. I was kind of joking when I wrote "Live with Voltaire! *double take* Live with Voltaire? *sigh*" as his reason for leaving. My sources give *no* reason why Algarotti left so quickly. What we know is that he continued to be on very complimentary terms with both his hosts after leaving, and they with him. My wanton and unsubstantiated speculation is based on two things: 1) Voltaire is Voltaire. 2) This is also how Algarotti later broke up with Fritz, as you may remember. "ILU! ILU from very far away!" "ILU too! Come back soon!" "When pigs fly, but ILU anyway!"
Algarotti seems to have been master of the amicable unofficial breakup, IOW. Even Lady Mary was left in some doubt as to his interest in her until she showed up in Italy several years later trying to move in with him. [ETA: My library shocked me by having the 3-volume set of the complete letters! I have placed a hold and will scan the Algarotti letters as soon as they arrive. Wheeee.]
Plus 3) I couldn't resist throwing some shade at Voltaire. :P
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-09 10:23 pm (UTC)Ahahaha. Being good at the amicable unofficial breakup is an art! (One which I sadly do not have, though I like all my ex-boyfriends.)
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-09 10:32 pm (UTC)Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-12 09:14 pm (UTC)Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-18 10:58 am (UTC)I mean, you could probably dig through Voltaire's correspondence to see what he was up to during those six weeks, and if I'm not falsely accusing him (I mean, Émilie seemed happy to live with him until her death!), maybe you'd get some ideas. But idk.
Voltaire's correspondence has been digitized, btw, but for the cost of a subscription that's more than I'm willing to pay atm, especially since the three volumes of letters to and from Fritz are freely available. (Would love to write a Fritz/Voltaire treat, but I would need to learn French and read said three volumes first, and possibly get my hands on a bio of Voltaire, and oh yeah, I still need to read the translation of that Fritz-trashing memoir that's on my list. So yeah. :P)
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-19 06:17 am (UTC)I am still wishing for translated Fritz/Wilhelmine :D I haven't even gotten to them yet. (When I looked up the 1745 letters, they haven't yet been digitized! I just see a scanned-in page.)
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-19 06:42 am (UTC)Unfortunately, the political correspondence really only seems to be available in scans, so not even searchable or anything. I guess if I had to pick one, I'd pick the personal correspondence, but still. I'm starting to get interested in his political correspondence too. (Yesterday, for example, I found the letters where Fritz wrote to the guy in Hanover, shortly after becoming king, telling him to find Peter Keith and tell him to come home. I'm still a bit uncertain why Fritz said to keep the matter a secret?)
ETA: Correction, the first 20 of the 46 volumes of political correspondence have been converted to text! I just thought they hadn't because my first foray into the correspondence was the Peter III correspondence, which is in volume 22.
Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-21 05:26 pm (UTC)Also my French is even worse than I thought it was, sigh.
So now I'm puzzled -- it seems to be missing at least one 1745/1746 letter and the dates are all over the place!
Quoting from
20. September 1745: Coronation of FS in Frankfurt; en route to said coronation, but the biography does not specify on which day exactly, MT passes through Emskirchen which is Bayreuth principality territory, and there has lunch with Wilhelmine
=> all hell breaks loose.
22. November 1745: Fritz invades Saxony (the first time). This basically ends the second Silesian War, with MT agreeing to letting Fritz have Silesia, Fritz belatedly voting for FS as Emperor and writes to Wilhelmine the "have made peace with YOUR FRIEND THE QUEEN OF HUNGARY" letter I already mentioned, along with Wilhelmine's "yay peace! she's not my friend, though cool" reply. Or, to quote it in the original phrasing: "Regarding the Queen of Hungary, I have never had a preference for her or a particular attachment to her interests. I simply do justice to her good qualities and consider it permitted to esteem all people who possess these." (Countered with "you are a traitor and a miscreant" type of letters.)
The letters:
2 Oct, F to W - "We have just defeated the Austrians."
19 Oct, W to F - You're the greatest, bro!
29 Oct, F to W - Thanks, sis! I am the greatest!
30 Dec, F to W - (Ma chere soeur instead of Ma tres chere, :(((((( ) - I just made peace with YOUR FRIEND
15 Jan, W to F - Yay peace! She's not my friend, I just acknowledge her good qualities! (these two are the ones referred to above)
29 Mar, F to W - You know, all the conflicts we've been having are not JUST your fault, it's also the fault of That Person I Won't Name Because That Would Actually Be Good Communication, but if I say "cuckold" will you get my hint? (which selenak has also translated previously)
But it sounds like there is at least one more letter between Jan and Mar where Fritz really got on her case for the "yay peace" comment? Or am I misunderstanding something one of you said in previous comments? Or is it a later letter where she's called a traitor and miscreant?
Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-22 11:21 am (UTC)a) The audiobook version of their correspondance - which is a selection.
b) Various quotes from their correspondance in various biographies
c) The website with the travel correspondance.
This being said, the big big "reason you suck" letter from Fritz I have in mind is from April 16th - that's the one that lists all he thinks Wilhelmine did wrong. Also, the AW biography as well as the Wilhelmine biography point out that parallel to all the Fritz letters, she corresponded with AW - there's one letter either from her or Fritz which brings this up as well, see: ways Fritz shows his displeasure -, and the Wilhelmine/AW correspondance has never been published except in quotes in various biographies.
(Mind you: In one letter to Fritz dated May 9th 1744 (i.e. the previous year, when the trouble wasn't yet the MT meeting but mainly the Marwitz business), AW writes "Following your order I have written to my Bayreuth sister and as you have asked me to transmit you her reply, I add her letter to mine here", which you can read as either Fritz asking AW to run interference as a mediator or as Fritz using AW to distance himself from Wilhelmine as a punishment - perhaps it's also a bit of both.)
Among the quotes from Wilhelmine's letters to AW during the estrangement from Fritz era:
"Your tenderness is my one consolation in my distress caused by the King's harsh way. But I am sure in his heart of hearts, he cannot but feel ashamed for treating me thus."
This was written in 1744 and thus overly optimistic. By the time we're in early 1745, Wilhelmine to AW sounds thusly:
"Please make him return his friendship to me again, and tell him I can't go on living like this any longer, as all I've written to change his mind about me has been in vain. He is still angry with me. I am eternally grateful to you for all you're doing on my behalf."
And after Fritz finally signals he is mollified, she writes to AW:
"You were the only one who felt with me and understood how hurt I was, I shall never forget it. From this, I have learned to value your kind heart, and your good character, and if you'd been the only one drawn into these affairs, the misunderstandings would have been cleared up far sooner. I still write respectful and affectionate letters to the Queen Mother, but she demands too much of me and has never understood me."
Wilhelmine was as good as her word, too, and did plead for AW when he needed her in the last year of their lives.
W to F: I am convinced that my brother was not lacking in good will. The grace you've shown him in entrusting the leadership of the army to him was a mighty incentive to deserve it. Only you, my dearest brother, are free of flaws in this regard. You cannot demand of others what you ask from yourself. His despair (...) is a very harsh punishment for him. His mistake will teach him to be smarter, and he will make up for it, I am sure!
This was written after her letter from Fritz about the whole disaster but before AW's letter about his version arrived. Post receiving AW's letter, rites Ziebura: "In her letter from August 24th 1e747, the Margravine pointed out to Wilhelm that much of one said in the first flush of anger was soon repented. The King had gone too far, true, and Wilhelm's hurt reaction was understandable. But Friedrich's accusations had not yet been made public. (...) His reputation and honor thus had not yet been damaged in the eyes of the outside world, it was still a private matter between him and the King. He should make a generous gesture towards the King as he couldn't expect the King to make the first move."
As things instead go from bad to worse (and AW's disgrace does become public): "We cannot find a remedy in the past, only in the future. (...) At your hearts, both of you want things to be alright again!"
But unlike Wilhelmine's estrangement from Fritz in the 40s, this was to have no reconciliation ending....
Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-25 08:28 pm (UTC)W to F: I am convinced that my brother was not lacking in good will. The grace you've shown him in entrusting the leadership of the army to him was a mighty incentive to deserve it. Only you, my dearest brother, are free of flaws in this regard. You cannot demand of others what you ask from yourself. His despair (...) is a very harsh punishment for him. His mistake will teach him to be smarter, and he will make up for it, I am sure!
<33333 Wilhelmine is so great, I love her <3 And now that I know more about AW I'm even more :((((((( about him :( <3
Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-26 06:59 am (UTC)Re: AW, naturally Fontane covers him as well in his travel guide, apropos Oranienburg, the palace Fritz gave him when Heinrich got Rheinsberg. It had been one of their grandfather's favored residences, which meant of course that FW had shut it down and ignored it for the three decades of his rule as part of his saving money to balance the state budget policy. This, however, meant that by the time AW got it and reopened it, the park had grown wild and really made it look like a fairy tale residence. Now Fontane quotes an older Prussian courtier - who did remember the F1 days - describing the party AW threw for his mother and siblings there. As it is a great example of a rokoko festivity, here is the description as quoted by Theodor Fontane: "On April 14," it says, "the Queen Mother set out from Berlin and arrived in Oranienburg in the afternoon of the same day. Her court followed her in a long line of bodies, probably thirty in number. The princess Amalie sat in the car of the queen. As soon as the approach of the train was announced to Prince August Wilhelm, he hurried up the great avenue towards the train, leapt from the horse in the face of the Queen's carriage, and greeted her, with his head bare, at the door of the carriage. Then he quickly swung himself back into the saddle and hurried forward in full gallop to repeat the honors at the entrance to the castle. At his side stood his wife, the Princess of Prussia (a born princess of Brunswick), the princes Heinrich and Ferdinand, and the court ladies of Wollden, Henckel, Wartensleben, Kamecke, Hacke, Pannewitz and Kannenberg. The queen most tenderly embraced her sons, greeted the bystanders, and was then led up the great staircase to the bedchamber destined for her, the same that King Frederick I used to inhabit during his visits to Oranienburg Castle. The queen found in this room a state bed of red damask, as well as an armchair, a fire-screen, and four taburets of the same cloth and the same color. Soon after the noble woman had settled in and enjoyed the view of the park and the landscape, the prince appeared to present her with three beautiful figures of Dresden porcelain, which the Queen Mother, as the prince knew, was particularly enamored by. But the queen mother was not alone in attracting the attention of this amiable prince, and Baron von Pöllnitz was also honored with similar attention. His Royal Highness well knew the fondness of the old Baron (von Pöllnitz) for all the antiquities and curiosities of the time of King Frederick I, who had always been a good and gracious lord to him, and mindful of that fondness, His Royal Highness presented the old baron with a morning cap, richly embroidered with gold, and a pair of slippers, which King Frederick I used to wear during his visits to Oranienburg, and who for more than thirty-two years had stood unnoticed and unappreciated in a half-forgotten chest. After sunset, promenades followed in the park, then game tables were arranged until about ten the welcome message that the supper was served, the game interrupted. What subtleties and surprises from the kitchen, which highly qualified wines, what cheerfulness, what cheerfulness of the guests! And yet at last the inevitable happened, as King Dagobert bitterly lamented at the time that even the best society had its end and had to part.
That was on April 14th. Early the next morning, and sooner than we liked, unfamiliar sounds woke us; the shepherd drove his flock past the castle, out into the fresh fields. The decision was made by a bull of such extra-elegant beauty that he could be none other than the well-known happy lover of the Virgin Europe; indeed, the manner in which he wore, and the strength of his breast tones, seemed to indicate that he would steal our Ladies at the different windows of the castle. But he was deceived, our ladies, who may have read the story, were afraid and held back so as not to expose themselves and their charms to similar dangers. However that may be, the morning slumber was disturbed, and in place of sleep, which refused to come again, promenades in a light, fluttering morning costume and, after breakfast, the mutual visits. The Princess Amalie received the tributes offered to her beauty; she wore a corset of black satin quilted with white silk and beneath it a silver-embroidered dress, embroidered with natural flowers. In this costume she stood and practiced the flute: Euterpe itself could have been the envy.
After dinner, the queen-mother received all the ladies present in her bedroom; those who preferred hand-crafting to card-playing sat on tabourets for the queen, while Baron Pöllnitz took his place as a reader, continuing in the reading of "La Manche or The Adventures of Monsieur. Bigaud". The queen followed the lecture and took off gold threads (se à à effiler de l'or). The decision of the day was made by a ball in the brightly lit dance hall, followed by a supper in the state room, at the end of the porcelain gallery. As the queen entered the state room, she suddenly noticed through the high windows opposite, as it suddenly did, in the middle of the dark park, like a flame-tree growing out of the earth. The picture became ever clearer, until at last it stood like a fiery arcade, which bore a crown at the highest point and below it the words "Vivat Sophia Dorothea."
Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-28 01:58 am (UTC)Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-28 06:49 pm (UTC)Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-28 06:59 pm (UTC)Re: Wilhelmine/Fritz letters
Date: 2019-11-29 03:54 am (UTC)AND FRITZ I HOPE YOU WERE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF. Ahem.
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-10 01:10 am (UTC)Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-15 10:34 am (UTC)Guys, they're in French! I had no idea. She broke into French for her most passionate letters, apparently because French is the language of love and English couldn't begin to express the depth and strength of her emotions.
This is not something she normally does! In 500 pages of letters, 32 are in French, and 11 of those are to Algarotti. The others seem to be largely to French people who presumably don't speak English. But she starts writing to Algarotti in English, and then switches to French when her emotions become too strong (switching occasionally back to English). Woooow.
Guys, she's obsessed. o.O
After picking my very slow way through a subset of the French, I accidentally discovered that the back of the book has the English translations, haha. (I discovered this while deciding to flip through the entire book to see how often she writes in French. Then all the French letters were collated and translated in the last few pages, yay. Then I felt silly. :P) So I scanned and uploaded those as well, for those of us whose French is very slow.
Oh, and apologies for the sometimes slanted or wavy writing. Holding the book flat and scanning and getting a good quality picture was hard. But it should be readable in all cases. As always, let me know if you can't access the files. (I live in horror of this, ever since sending a blast email announcing my wedding, with a link to our wedding registry that apparently worked only if you were logged in as me.)
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-15 05:48 pm (UTC)Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-11-25 02:26 am (UTC)Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-12-01 12:21 am (UTC)Apr 1736
LM to A: I waited THREE HOURS for you. Quote: "Three Hours of expectation is no small Tryal of Patience, and I beleive [sic] some of your Martyrs have been canoniz'd for suffering less."
May 1736
LM to A: Come visit me tomorrow! If you don't reply, I'll take that to mean you're coming.
Aug 1736
LM to A: Now writing in the Language of Losing Your Mind to Love, aka French. Almost swooned at the thought of seeing you again.
Sep 1736
LM to A: Will love you forever, spend all my time agonizing over whether telling you so will offend you.
Sep 1736
LM to A: Remember Dido? Foreign guy comes to visit her, she falls in love, he abandons her, she kills herself. THAT'S ME RIGHT NOW. I mean, I think I'm tougher than that, but the thought did cross my mind, just so you know.
I had dinner with an acquaintance last night. She said you were the most attractive [aimable--translation the editor's] person she'd ever seen. I made her stay and talk until two am. Not because we talked about you, because we didn't. But just so I could enjoy the company of someone who had once enjoyed yours. THAT'S how far gone I am. The only other pleasure I have in life is writing letters you never answer. I realize this is irrational!
Also, since I never get anything in return, I maintain that makes my love the purest. When people pray to the Virgin Mary, they expect to get something in return. You've made it quite clear I can expect nothing. I LOVE YOU ANYWAY.
Sep 1736
LM to A: You're still not writing to me. I don't think your ship sank, or I would have heard about it. I'm going to go ask Lord Hervey if he has any news. Brb.
LH to LM: Yes, Algarotti writes to me, and no, he never mentions you. And yes, he knows you and I talk. Draw your own conclusions.
Sep 1736
LM to A: OMG, you wrote to me! I went to see Lord Hervey to ask him if you'd arrived safely in Paris. But I was such an emotional mess that I couldn't get this simple question out, and he got super annoyed with me.
LH to A: Omg, I tried to get out of talking to her, and then she caught me, and we had this incredibly painful, extended, and unsuccessful interview. What does she want?! FML
LH to LM: "It is not strange that any body who labours as much as you do to be unintelligible should be misunderstood, but if you will send me word what hour to night I may see you, I will call upon you for better information, if it be but for a minute, to show you that at least it is not willfully (as you say) that I misunderstand."
Oct 1736
LM to A: Pretty sure you haven't written to me. Your letters can't possibly be going astray. I have retired to the countryside to look at trees. Since I can't look at you, I don't want to look at other people.
Addendum later that day: OMG YOU WROTE TO HERVEY AGAIN? You bastard.
Dec 1736
Please find enclosed an unsolicited portrait of me. If you can't come to England, I'm moving to Italy so we can live together.
Feb 1738
LM to A: Everything sucks.
Jun 1738
LM to A: Haven't heard from you in over a month. Remember, me moving to Italy forever just to be with you is totally an option.
Jul 1738
LM to A: What do you mean, I didn't reply to your letter? You know I always reply to your letters the same day I get them. I am your Penelope. You're just lying so you can pretend you didn't get the many letters I sent you. P.S. I love you anyway.
Jul 1738
LM to A: I keep writing to you. I really hope you're getting all these letters. I'm going crazy here.
Aug 1738
LM to A: Ditto above.
Nov 1738
LM to A: Why are you upset with me? I do everything for you! If you're upset, it's all your fault. P.S. If I can't see you again, I want to die. Immediately.
Jan 1739
LM to A: I said I wasn't going to write to you any more until I heard from you, but here I am writing to you. You're probably infatuated with some beautiful Parisian woman. I am in very real danger of falling out of love with you here.
Feb 1739
LM to A: OMG, you're coming to London??!! Yes, I will totally pay for your trip! OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!
Mar 1739
LM to A: ...And now you're unhappy with my method of payment. Fine. We'll do it your way, despite the great inconvenience to me.
Jul 1739
LM to A: Since you managed to leave immediately after arriving, I am officially declaring: fuck this. I'm going to Italy, and we're going to be together forever.
Sep 1739
LM to A: I'm at the foot of the Alps and about to arrive in Italy. Trembling with anticipation. I went all the way through France without thinking about anything except you.
Algarotti: *hasn't been anywhere near Italy for years*
Algarotti: *currently hanging out with Crown Prince Fritz at Rheinsberg*
Dec 1739
LM to A: What the actual fuck. Now you're claiming you had no idea I was coming to Venice to live with you? You think I came here for the freaking Carnival*? NO I cannot go to Paris! You agreed to this plan! I'm staying here, I like it here, and if you don't want to join me, you can just stay wherever the heck you are now and feel bad about me coming all this way for you, you ingrate. You know, I could be happy here if it weren't for you.
* Footnote: the Carnival in Venice is kind of a big deal. You go there at the furthest removed time from Carnival, i.e. autumn, and you're like, "Wow, Carnival masks for sale everywhere."
Mar 1740
LM to A: What do you mean, you told me not to come to Italy? You totally agreed I should come to Italy! I have it in writing! I would have gone to Japan for you. Now. Seriously. I'm going to stay here, unless you tell me you really want me, and then I'll go anywhere. But you need to be super clear about it if you expect me to relocate again.
July 1740
LM to A: Still waiting for you.
Oct 1740
LM to A: Prepared to go anywhere in the world with you. Just say the word.
May 1741
LM to A: Newton did not study light more than I studied you. And when I looked into the prism of your eyes, I saw only indifference toward me. I'm sure this is my fault for not being interesting enough to spark emotion in a soul like yours.
Footnote: Critically, this letter is undated. Its content makes the most sense if it dates to May 1741, when they ran into each other in Turin, met up, and it was unpleasant enough that she stopped writing to him for the next decade and a half. BUT. The ink and paper are most similar to letters she wrote in England in the 1730s, so she might have gone through a period of disillusionment with him after his brief visit to London in spring 1739.
I'm sort of torn between sympathy and horror. Train wreck much? Without Algarotti's letters (of course, there aren't many), it's hard to say how much he encouraged her, but aside from the one where she claims he agreed to live in Venice with her, it sounds like not much. She's clearly suffering, but she's also clearly driving him crazy and she *knows* it (she repeatedly says so), so I am also totally sympathetic to Algarotti here. Since he was apparently a notorious people pleaser, I could imagine him going, "Suuuuuure, you should tooootally come to Venice
for, like, a two-day visit" hoping she didn't follow through, and making sure she didn't know he was far, far away when she did.Nothing about everything I know about Algarotti indicates that he was any good at confrontation, like, at all, so he probably carries some share of the blame here, but I can imagine him trying to be distantly polite in the face of her relentlessness, and her latching onto the least bit of encouragement and ignoring all the attempts at discouragement he claims to have made. It's also quite possible he wrote something that read to him as, "If you're in town, you're welcome to my guest room," and to her as, "Drop everything and come to Venice so we can fulfill our destiny of being together forever."
In the end, I'm glad she managed to enjoy Italy more than England and be much happier there than she was at home, to the point where she lived there for the next twenty years without him. Silver lining?
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-12-01 03:17 am (UTC)But yes, silver lining. BTW, Burgdorf the unreliable GAY GAY AND DID I MENTION GAY Fritz biographer of course lists Alagarotti among the Fritzian conquests and assures his readers that never ever did Algarotti consort with anyone female ever. For verily, bi people do not exist. Sigh.
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-12-01 03:30 am (UTC)True. As we've seen elsewhere, he was on a desperate job hunt at the time, hence his very brief stay, buuuut, you're right, that may not have been the most ethical move ever.
BTW, Burgdorf the unreliable GAY GAY AND DID I MENTION GAY Fritz biographer of course lists Alagarotti among the Fritzian conquests and assures his readers that never ever did Algarotti consort with anyone female ever. For verily, bi people do not exist.
Sigh, sigh, and sigh. I mean, Algarotti is generally listed among the Fritzian conquests (orgasm poem, anyone?), but Algarotti was almost certainly bi! And not just because of Lady Mary. Omg, reactionary historians are terrible.
Re: Algarotti
Date: 2019-12-02 09:31 pm (UTC)It is nice she liked Italy, though :P
Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-08 04:41 am (UTC)Atm, the only thing I have to say is a tangent inspired by the following:
in which case Fritz is sung by a castrato
This one would be deliciously ironic, given all the rumors about Fritz's apparent lack of interest in the female sex being due to castration and other forms of impotence.
Historian 1: Look, Old Fritz can't be gay. There's NO WAY. He was so manly! He invaded provinces and partitioned Poland! He won a three-front war! He spent years on campaign enduring all sorts of hardships. Could he have done that if he was gay? NO HOMO.
Historian 2: I'm with you so far, but what's with the lack of sex? He was king, he could have had *anyone*. Explain, plz.
Historian 1: Okay, so remember the ladies Orzelska and Ritter and Wreech and Formera and so on and so forth? What do they all have in common? He was young! Clearly, something happened in his twenties that made him impotent.
Historian 2: Like what?
Historian 1: Like his dad kept a close eye on him, so he couldn't have normal affairs like a young prince, so he had to resort to prostitutes. Naturally, he caught a venereal disease.
Historian 2: Oooh, so that operation on his penis he was supposed to have had in 1733?
Historian 1: Yeah, except the operation went wrong and he was castrated.
Historian 2: Right, right, gotcha. And then he *pretended* to be into "Socratic" love so people wouldn't guess anything was wrong. But really it was just homoerotic poetry in the classical Greek style, no action or anything.
Historian 3: No, no, you're both wrong! If he was impotent, how could he have been manly enough to invade and hold Silesia? Eunuchs are weak and effeminate. Clearly the botched operation caused a *cosmetic* disfigurement that made him *self-conscious* about his penis, hence the no sex. Obviously he was actually perfectly virile the whole time!
Historian 3: But I'm with you on the faking homoerotic interest via poetry.
Historian 4: Idk about any operation, but I promise you, dear readers, there was nothing "unnatural" about Fritz's sex drive, it was just "underdeveloped." It's MANLY to not be into women and only like waging war, k? If he wrote poetry at all, much less erotic poetry, you will not find any mention of it in my incredibly manly book.
Historian 5: No, no, you're all wrong! He was sekritly in love with EC but forced to pretend he wasn't, because he had trash-talked the marriage to defy his father before he'd met her, and Fritz was constitutionally incapable of backing down. He would totally cut off his nose to spite his face for 46 years.
Allow me to convince you with all the evidence. Remember how they lived together while his father was alive, and he claimed to be having sex with her? He was perfectly happy at Rheinsberg. Lonely and sad afterward. QED. HUGE TRAGEDY for our totally heterosexual hero. Everybody shed a tear for the tragic love of Friedrich II and Elisabeth Christine.
Historian 6: Okay, but you guys realize there is no evidence that there was any operation at all? And his naked body was examined by many people after his death, and *nobody* commented on any supposed disfigurement? The doctor who treated Fritz during his life and claimed to have seen this "disfigurement" is a totally unreliable source, who would claim anything to salvage his hero's reputation. YES HOMO. EXTREMELY HOMO. MAXIMUM HOMO. [ETA: okay, not *Philippe d'Orleans* maximum, but he may have been throwing some transgender in there too, hard to say. Anyway. Lots of homo. :P]
Margaret Goldsmith (writing in 1929): Nice job catching up, 2015 guy. I said all this a hundred years ago. Fritz/Katte 4ever. <333
(NB: I have placed all these accounts in dialogue form in the mouths of historians for the sake of entertainment. The actual details of the historiography, what was said by Fritz's doctor and what was said later and by who, are more complicated and irrelevant. Suffice it to say that these stories have all been bruited about by people EXTREMELY concerned to save Heroic Old Fritz's reputation from the awful and unsubstantiated gay rumors.)
Also, I entitled this comment "Crackfic" in reference to our Fritz/Joseph crackfic, but honestly, the whole venereal disease/operation/castration/cosmetic disfigurement stories should count as crackfic too. :P
And yet those of us who think he might actually have been interested in men are the "gossipy sensationalists," omg, smh.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-09 06:05 am (UTC)And yet those of us who think he might actually have been interested in men are the "gossipy sensationalists,"
Ha, yes. That's a very good summary of the contortions historians went through to come up wit any other explanation than "gay". And not just historians. I mentioned that indignant comment to the online interview with a modern Fritz biographer where the commenter goes "no OLD FRITZ WAS NOT GAY AND NOR WERE ANY OF HIS BROTHERS ALL AUSTRIAN SLANDER SPREAD BY VOLTAIRE NO PRUSSIAN ROYAL WAS EVER GAY SO THERE!"
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-09 06:09 am (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-09 09:51 am (UTC)It does, though? Fritz in his voice over/inner monologue while watching the deserter being punished early in the movie refers to Katte as "my lover", there is no room for ambiguity in the German term used.
There is a liiiiitttle ambiguity when he asks fictional G. to stay after the role play in that we don't see them do anything non-platonic, but the cut is to sister Amalie in bed with Friedemann Bach the morning after, which certainly draws a direct comparison visually. And still later, when Fritz catches Amalie and Friedemann having sex in the stables with Amalie dressed as a man, after she's left, the none-too-subtext of the short conversation he has with Friedemann certainly read to me:
Fritz *circling Friedemann and invading his space like none's business*: You totally went for the wrong sibling there, Son of Bach. Shame. We could have had something.
Friedemann: Nah. Not because you're a man, or because you're a royal, though I snark about royals throughout this film. Because you're too much of a jerk.
Fritz: OUT!
(Johann Sebastian later picks up his wayward son on the road.)
Anyway, these later occurances could maybe explained by desperate Denialists in a non-gay way, but "lover" is "lover" is "lover", and once he's called Katte that in his thoughts, which he does before any of the other scenes happen, that settles that, imo.
ETA: Okay, here's a direct transcription of the scene after Fritz told Amalie to leave, because it's even gayer than I remembered:
A *while leaving*: Coward. *note: it's not clear whether she means Fritz or Friedemann, who has earlier refused to run away with her, but Fritz clearly takes it to mean himself as what he says is a reply to her*
Fritz *speaking in her departing direction*: A Prussian Princess is an item in the market that's supposed to bring in money. The market sets the price and not an organist from the provinces.
*walks towards a horse, with his back turned to Friedemann, but now adressing him*
Fritz: Friedemann Bach. Your music is higher valued than mine. Congratulations.
*cut to Friedemann, listening*
Fritz: Nethertheless, whether you like it or not -
*he turns around, now looking at Friedemann, starting to walk towards him with the following words*
Fritz: Your music is no match for that of your father, and it never will be.
(*note: Fritz is using knowledge gained from his last conversation with J.B. Bach here who when Fritz confessed his own father issues confided in turn he's worried about what he's been doing to his sons by dooming them to follow him in the same profession*)
*now starts the circling around Friedemann closer and closer walk*
I envy you. To inherit such musical know how without having to lift a finger! You just bend over and pull it out of the stores.
*with his next word, he switches the mode of adress from "Sie" to "Du" while stopping toe to toe, face to face to Friedemann*
You can be doubly grateful to your father. Without him, this adventure would get you the punishment for deserters - 300 lashes for three days. One survives that. But somewhat... weakened.
*with the last word, he starts circling Friedemann again*
Friedemann: I'm grateful.
*Fritz stops, standing still, with his back to Friedemann, but still standing very close*
Friedemann: To my father.
*now Friedemann takes a step closer to Fritz, lowering his voice*
Friedemann: But above all to your majesty.
Fritz: Friedemann Bach. Bold in music and reckless in love. Free.
*he turns around towards Friedemann*
Fritz: A freedom we could have shared.
*moves closer to Friedemann, definitely close enough to kiss*
Fritz: in music and... who knows.
Friedemann: You honor me, your majesty. *now he's doing the circling around Fritz walk, and once he's completed the circle, he puts his hands on Fritz' cheeks and cradles his face; Fritz just stares at him, wide-eyed*
Friedemann *still speaking softly and close enough to kiss*: They say that you play your flute after your battles, surrounded by corpses.
* abruptly pulls his hands back and smiles; yep, Friedemann is that kind of a bastard in this movie*
Fritz *stunned*: You will leave us. Quickly and without delay.
Friedemann: *strolls away, while fictional servant G. arrives*
Son of ETA: Fritz catches them at sex at 1:20:46, if you want to see that scene only.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-09 09:23 pm (UTC)Ah, I totally missed that (for obvious reasons). The comment I remember was along the lines of, "What was all that body language with Friedemann about? Were they trying to imply Fritz was gay? SLANDER AND LIBEL!"
Well, good job, movie, then! (And thank goodness I have a German speaker to tell me when the German is unambiguous.) And wow, commenters are desperate.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-10 08:57 am (UTC)Yes, most merciful King, father and lord. I, Friedrich, Crown Prince of Prussia, must be present at the execution of my lover, Lieutenant Katte.
(German word is "Liebhaber", which, as I said, is unambigous, as opposed to "Freund" ("Friend"). It's also an interesting choice on the part of the script since it's the active noun as opposed to "Geliebter" (Beloved). No idea whether I'm overthinking this due to fandom or whether the scriptwriter wants to imply Katte topped. ;) )
Lieutenant Katte is to be die via beheading at dawn.
(Subtitles "Is to be beheaded at dawn" which sounds more fluent and less stiff, but the implication is that Fritz is reciting the execution order here from memory and that certainly was written in clumsy bureaucratic German.)
Katte and I have not offended against honour, Father and Lord/Master. My life is not so dear to me -
(Subtitle version: "I do not cling to life")
- becoming King is not so dear to me -
(Subtitle version: "I do not want to become King")
...he doesn't finish that last sentence, it's incomplete in German, just keeps staring into the rain while the deserter is getting punished and we cut to the Bachs having their own family drama chez Emmanuel.
Anyway, there is a significant difference in the last two lines between subtitle and original, wouldn't you say? The subtitles completely lose the implication that Fritz is mentally composing a plea for mercy for Katte to FW, as the obvious end of that sentence is "- not as dear to me as Katte's life". And there's a significant difference in characterisation between not wanting to become King at all, or wanting to give up something he basically aspires to and sees as his right if it would spare his lover.
he comment I remember was along the lines of, "What was all that body language with Friedemann about? Were they trying to imply Fritz was gay? SLANDER AND LIBEL!"
Well, you know, clearly, when he called Katte his lover, he was speaking metaphorically before. And he'd never, ever, fancy someone one of his siblings has slept with. Clearly. Not Fritz! Slander!
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-12 09:10 pm (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-15 11:09 am (UTC)Well, you know, clearly, when he called Katte his lover, he was speaking metaphorically before.
Well, the thing is, he might have been. The subtitles say "lover", but I don't trust subtitles (for the very reasons you outlined!), and since he immediately goes on to say "we have not sinned," I originally concluded "lover" was a poor translation for "beloved" or something similar. I assume the commenter in question, watching a subtitled version and commenting in English, was also restricted to interpreting the subtitles (through a homophobic lens, to boot).
Knowing that it was an unambiguous "lover" in the original, and that you translated it as "offended" rather than "sinned", does make it more explicitly gay, yes, and then all the Friedemann stuff has to be interpreted in that light.
Speaking of ambiguities, I've read that FW's "Did you [verb] Katte or did he [verb] you?" to Fritz is ambiguous as to whether he meant "seduce [sexually]" or "corrupt [morally, into desertion]" in German. Both are somewhat ambiguous in English, but "seduce" is getting more and more confined to the sexual sense, and "corrupt" to a financial sense.
And he'd never, ever, fancy someone one of his siblings has slept with. Clearly. Not Fritz! Slander!
Not our Fritz!
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-17 07:55 pm (UTC)*nods* The word "sin" either as verb or noun does not show up, and we have it - "sündigen". "Offended against honor" was the most literal translation - less literally, I could have translated it as "we did not act dishonorably". But I'd never translate it as "we haven't sinned", because the religious implication is utterly missing in the original. Also, I would say that especially in a military context and with this particular character as the one having the inner monologue, the original to me implies he's not denying Katte having been his lover, he's denying they did anything he regards as dishonorable.
I've read that FW's "Did you [verb] Katte or did he [verb] you?" to Fritz is ambiguous as to whether he meant "seduce [sexually]" or "corrupt [morally, into desertion]" in German.
Is the verb "verführen"? In which case, yes, it can mean either. As we're talking linguistics: would FW have necessarily be thinking in German - his version of German has a lot of French-derived words in it and some excentric grammar, so it might be worth considering how the sentence would have been phrased in French.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-18 07:59 am (UTC)Makes sense. Thanks so much!
Is the verb "verführen"?
I have no idea, I've only seen it in English translation. I was hoping you were familiar with the quote (because it's common enough that I've run into it in like 3 separate sources) in the original. I'll see if I can track it down.
While we're here getting clarification on the German vs. the subtitles (you are the best!), what about "I breathe in you" from the roleplay? I've been curious about the nuances of that since I saw it.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-18 08:37 am (UTC)In the original he says "Du bist ich. Ich lebe in dir", which I'd translate as "You are me. I live in you", not "I breathe in you" - "leben" = "live", not "breathe" (which would be "atmen"), no need to get more poetical, and since Fritz is rp Katte, not himself, adressing Goltz as Fritz, him saying "I live in you" certainly is more poignant.
(BTW, he's using "Du" not "Sie", but then he's also adressing Goltz as Goltz with "Du" earlier. Otoh Goltz after his initial refusal switching from the formal mode to adress to "Du" signals he's accepted the rp.)
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-18 08:44 am (UTC)Oh, damn. Yes, that's way more powerful. Wow, these subtitles are just not doing justice. (Although I did like the poesy--the impact is harder with "live," given all the context. I mean, that's just a different way of phrasing the last line of "Pulvis et Umbra.")
he's using "Du" not "Sie"
Oh, interesting, so another fictional example of Fritz/Katte Du-ing each other.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-18 11:03 am (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-18 09:25 pm (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-24 03:46 pm (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-24 04:49 pm (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-24 05:03 pm (UTC)Speaking of book reports, I have obtained the last of the Lady Mary/Algarotti correspondence and will be scanning and uploading that shortly.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-29 12:27 pm (UTC)The passage on page 83 reads: "At their first meeting after his flight and capture on August 15th 1731 in Küstrin, his father asked: "Did you seduce Katte, or did Katte seduce you?"" German word is "Verführen", as guessed. Also, FW is quoted saying "du", so he must be talking in German. "Friedrich claimed the guilt was his. The protocol of this meeting leaves it ambigous whether the question refers solely to the attempted flight, or also to the "horrible sins", at which the various interrogations had repeatedly hinted at."
Re: the Marwitz episode, that's a bust, Burgdorf just gives an abbreviated version of Ziebura's version, he doesn't even quote the letters, just Lehndorff's diary entry.
In general, I'm less than impressed by this book. I mean, yes, it's an unambious "Fritz was gay, gay, and did I mention, gay?", but he often writes speculation as fact without providing any sources to back this up. For example, re: Orzelska, he says they met in Dresden, hit it off and started "a life long correspondance in letters". (? This is news to me. Have not seen a single letter to or from Orzelska quoted in any biography so far.) Then Burgdorf adds that any thought Fritz actually slept with her even once has clearly to be a fairy tale conjured up by 19th century Prussian historians in a desperate attempt to make their hero less gay. Now, do I think later historians (and not just 19th century ones) jumped at the Orzelska episode, along with poor Doris Ritter, as one of the few examples of Fritz showing interest in a woman he's not related to and who could possibly constructed as a romantic object out of homophobia? Sure. But the thing is, said historians didn't make this up out of nothing. Fritz in a letter to Voltaire unambigously claims to have been in love with her. Wilhelmine said he came back from Dresden very pleased with himself and having had sex with her. Now Fritz could have been lying about this to Voltaire and Wilhelmine both, absolutely. But for Burgdorf not as much as reference the claim and pretend it was all an invention by later historians is disingenious.
And he keeps doing this. After quoting Wilhelmine's unflattering early assessment of Katte, he adds this negative opinion "was purely jealousy, as Wilhelmine had fallen for Katte herself". Ooookay. I mean, again: I, too, did wonder, whether in addition to resenting Katte for the same reason she had resented Keith before him - possessiveness of Fritz' time and attention -, she herself might have felt attracted to Katte and therefore been extra hostile. But that's speculation. He presents it without any "if" or "maybe" or "it could be possible, that...", just as a statement of fact, and there isn't as much as a footnote indicating where he has that from.
Hence me being less than impressed, alas. And not knowing he reliable is in matters I don't have previous background knowledge of, like, for example, a statemtn like: "The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite." Again, no footnote indicating where this story is from.
One useful information I didn't know before which appears to be genuine: after Fredersdorf had died, Fritz asked his widow to return his (i.e. Fritz') letters. She did send two packages of letters back which were duly burnt, but as it turns out kept the majority of letters, which meant we still have them; they were not published until 1926, though.
The other new to me thing was that the "Prussian Pompadour" designation for Fredersdorf which I had read in articles before hails from none other than Ernst von Lehndorff, EC's chamberlain and Heinrich's friend-with-benefits, who writes in his diary in a 1757 entry that he finds it amazing that a "common man" (reminder: Fredersdorf was not a noble) "had played the role of prime minister for so long", ascribes it to him having had "a very pretty face" for a start and having had the wisdom "to withdraw in time, which is a delicate matter for men who have a position otherwise given to a beautiful woman who has to notice when her beauty starts to fade".
(My dear Lord Chamberlain, the Marquise famously held her position long beyond Louis' sexual interest, till her death. Just saying.)
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-29 05:36 pm (UTC)What. (Trier doesn't have anything either. WTF, author.)
Then Burgdorf adds that any thought Fritz actually slept with her even once has clearly to be a fairy tale conjured up by 19th century Prussian historians in a desperate attempt to make their hero less gay.
What.
he adds this negative opinion "was purely jealousy, as Wilhelmine had fallen for Katte herself".
What.
"The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite."
What. Like you say, it may be true, but it's news to me. Citation required. Also, shooting yourself when your boyfriend moves on (why?) is not exactly comparable to being executed by your boyfriend's father.
after Fredersdorf had died, Fritz asked his widow to return his (i.e. Fritz') letters. She did send two packages of letters back which were duly burnt, but as it turns out kept the majority of letters, which meant we still have them; they were not published until 1926, though.
Okay, that's interesting. Friiitz! Inquiring minds need to know about your relationship with Fredersdorf
so we can write curtain fic.(My dear Lord Chamberlain, the Marquise famously held her position long beyond Louis' sexual interest, till her death. Just saying.)
Maybe he's implying that she needs to step down too? :P Wikipedia tells me 1757 was 6 years after she ceased to be official chief mistress, which would mean he moved on sexually when she was about 30, and she's 35 now. (Lehndorff can hardly be held responsible for knowing in 1757 that she would still be influential in 1764, but yes, he should know about the last 6 years, though he may be stating his disapproval.) At any rate, he seems to be indicating that the stepping down was voluntary on Fredersdorf's part.
Okay, found the relevant passage in his diaries online: "His sickness, his jealousy of the famous Glasow*, his wealth, and especially his desire to live quietly, made him beg the king until he relieved him of all his offices." I really want to know what the primary source is for Fredersdorf's involuntary dismissal on grounds of dishonesty. Hopefully the letters will clear that up when they arrive.
Anyway, Burgdorf seems highly unreliable. I am not impressed.
Glasow: I had to refresh myself, but he was apparently a private soldier in the infantry with a pretty face, turned Fritz's favorite starting in 1755, then he ended up in Spandau in 1757 with no reason given. Secondary sources give two accounts: 1) he was part of a plot to poison Fritz, 2) he used his Fritz's seal in an unauthorized manner to issue orders of his own. The same source that says he used to be required to sleep in Fritz's bedroom is the same sources that other sources dismiss as unreliable for the poisoning account. It's pretty clear we have no idea what's going on here, even my secondary sources say that.
Man, I need to reread all the Fritz bios in e-book form. It's only been a few months since my last stint, but thanks to our discussion, there are so many things I actually have context for now that might jump out at me as interesting, like the monkey episode that I had apparently entirely forgotten when I read it the first time (because I had no one to share cool things with). As I was scrolling through volume 1 of Catt yesterday, I was realizing all the military details that I had skimmed because it was a bunch of meaningless place names, now have meaning to me. Totally unexpected side benefit of all that map work. So now I want to reread volume 1.
But! First I need to finish said map-making, and then I need to get my health sorted so I have the concentration to read even e-books again.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-25 08:39 pm (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-09 10:31 pm (UTC)Everybody shed a tear for the tragic love of Friedrich II and Elisabeth Christine.
!!!!!
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-09 10:33 pm (UTC)Me, when I saw that: If by "shed a tear" you mean "spit out my drink," then sure.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-19 09:03 pm (UTC)That's one way of putting it, indeed.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-21 05:28 pm (UTC)Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-21 05:31 pm (UTC)BUT STILL. You're clearly not qualified to write a thinkpiece, author. You're like that stopped clock that tells the time twice a day by total accident.
Re: Crackfic
Date: 2019-11-25 08:18 pm (UTC)dysfunctionalintimate-sexual relationships? Yes... but... okay, maybe not so much on the sexual part, fine... but...!Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-08 04:46 am (UTC)1740 death of Suhm
1742 estrangement from Algarotti
1744 estrangement from Wilhelmine
1745 death of Keyserlingk
1745 death of Jordan
1746 death of Duhan
1746 reconciliation with Wilhelmine
1747 Algarotti returns
1751 death of Rothenburg (in Fritz's arms)
1753 partial estrangement from Algarotti
1753 estrangement from Voltaire
1757 estrangement from Fredersdorf
1757 death of Sophia Dorothea
1758 death of Fredersdorf
1758 death of brother Wilhelm*
1758 death of Wilhelmine
late 50s/early 60s gradual partial long-distance reconciliation with Voltaire begins
1764 death of Algarotti
1767 death of Heinrich (the beloved nephew, not the unbeloved brother)
1768 estrangement from D'Argens
1768 death of Eichel
1773 death of Quantz
1774 death of Fouqué
1775 death of Quintus Icilius
1778 death of Voltaire
1778 death of Earl of Marischal
1782 estrangement from Catt
1786 death of Fritz
* As
So when we talk about Fritz's emotional isolation, there are two aspects:
1) To what extent was he isolated?
2) To what extent was he isolated by choice?
And while the answer to both is "more than the average person," both aspects have been overestimated by contemporaries and posterity alike. A huge reason is that the more famous he was, the older he was, and the older he was, the more isolated he was. Even the isolation of his last years has been overstated, but it's definitely true.
And if you break down the ways that he ended up both increasingly isolated with time, and with a reputation for isolation, it comes down to these factors:
1) He disliked the majority of people and did not casually welcome anyone and everyone into his circle.
2) He kept at arm's length people that he was expected by society to at least make the effort to interact with: his wife, his brothers, etc.
3) He outlived his inner circle (especially the Rheinsberg circle).
4) He was reluctant to add new people to the inner circle later in life.
5) He cut people off when they offended him.
6) He inadvertently drove people away through being impossible to live with.
1 and 2) don't necessarily reflect either misanthropy a preference for being alone. He was more open about his likes and dislikes, but those two plus the length of the chronology above make it pretty clear that he was committed to quality over quantity. A lot of people who are surrounded by family and casual friends out of fear of loneliness and/or need for a social safety net are actually *emotionally* isolated. The whole "I make nice with my family, even though they're really awful for my mental health, because I have financial problems/health problems/etc." is sadly common.
3 and 4) are also pretty common. Even today, the whole "I used to make friends easily in my 20s, but now I'm in my 40s and it's hard" phenomenon is seen all over social media, along with advice column articles on ways to get around that. People who outlive their social circle often end up alone. The way most people have historically gotten around the isolation of old age is through large extended families. Some people are lucky enough for that to work out well in their old age, but a large number of people are either stuck in a nursing home because they don't have family to take care of them, or stuck in an unhappy family situation because they can't afford an alternative. (This also goes for younger disabled people, younger people with a sucky job market, etc.) Fritz had staff and doctors, and so he didn't need to depend on family.
5 and 6) are the big two "oh, Fritz" ones.. And what they tell you are not that Fritz didn't like people, or that he wanted to be alone, but that he lacked the skills of making a long-term relationship work. The reason the chronology of people he loved is so long was that he was pretty willing to let people into the inner circle. (And I could have made that list even longer, but I had to draw a line around the inner circle somewhere.)
The way it usually worked was that he made snap judgments whether to like someone. If you were in, you were in (for as long as it lasted). If you were out, you were out, and changing his first impression of you for the better was hard. And once you were in, you got a mixture of "Fritz lavishing affection on you and begging you to stick around (or come back)" with "Fritz being Fritz," which was not easy to live with but was not necessarily intentionally aimed at driving you away.
As a counterexample to his total isolation after the Seven Years' War and an example of him actually knowing how to do the whole friendship thing, there was the Earl of Marischal. Fritz granted him some land on the Sanssouci grounds, paid for him to build a house there, and gave him a permanent place at the dinner table at Sanssouci. When the old Earl found it harder and harder to get up that steeply terraced hill, Fritz would make the trip down the hill and eat with him somewhere else. They were still good friends when Marischal died in 1778, yet another death that was hard on Fritz. Let's keep in mind also that if he hadn't driven anyone away or cut anyone off, he still outlived by many years all but one of the people he was estranged from. So from that list, it would have been basically him and Catt at the end.
In conclusion, on the one hand, obviously he was more isolated in 1786 than in 1736 (the "happiest years" being 1736-1740, at Rheinsberg). But too many people let that seduce them into a picture of either old or young Fritz being uniformly crabby and reluctant to let people get close. When in reality, he also had this emotionally open, even clingy, side that people tend to overlook in him after the age of about 18 or at best 28.
The saddest part about his increasing isolation is that he *cared*. His list is really long and mine is really short because my social interaction needs are really low. When I cut people off, I don't care, and when I outlive them, I don't care except in an abstract "death is bad" kind of way. Fritz latched onto people, hated being alone, grieved people intensely, and got really upset when he cut people off or they left him. He really needed better relationship skills than he had.
therapy for everyone
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-09 10:36 pm (UTC)Wilhelmine is interesting because it looks to me like she had (or was forced to get) mad people skills (which Voltaire noticed, haha) but she still had a crap life because she was a woman and women just often had crap lives, unless they were lucky enough to be Maria Theresia, I guess. (And even then, I still boggle at the 16 kids. Geesh.)
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-09 10:44 pm (UTC)that he really loved the people he loved in a very emotional way, and would probably have been a lot happier if he'd had better relationship skills.
Yes, yes, and yes. He let people get close to him with surprising ease (even when you take into account 18th century rhetorical conventions), and then he so often didn't know how to make himself or anyone else happy.
Wilhelmine: agreed. Sucks to be almost everybody, ugh. And MT may have had a less crap life than a lot of people, but she sure didn't have an *easy* one.
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-10 10:13 am (UTC)Nope, especially once FS dies, because that's when everything takes a severe turn into dysfunctional. Not to Hohenzollern levels, but then as Tolstoi has observed every family is unhappy in their own unique way.
For starters, it's pretty clear MT went into a severe depression after Franz died, and while her era was well familiar with "melancholy", they didn't really have a good way for treating it. This in a private person would have been unfortunate enough for said private person, but she's relentlessly in the public eye, an active sovereign with access to near unlimited power to vent her grief with. So MT doesn't just cut herself off from things she's previously enjoyed, like attending balls (even after she could no longer actively participate in them like she could as a young woman), gambling (she never played the incredibly high risk stakes daughter MA and a lot of the nobility in all European countries played, but she did play cards as a form of socializing and was pretty good at it), going to concerts (or have them come to her), theatre plays, masques, wearing colorful clothing; instead, abruptly attending the Empress at court means you're in, even after the immediate mourning period for FS is over, severe dark clothing, no leisure fun activity other than listening to the occasional priest reciting the bible or religious texts. This is not what anyone signed up for as a courtier and none too surprisingly, the nobility either flocks towards Joseph (when he's there, since he's travelling a lot in those years) or one of his siblings still in Vienna. Which heightens MT's sense of post-FS emotional isolation and desertion, and makes her all the more determined not to give up power and throw herself into governing.
(Sidenote: it's a minor point, but due to the 18th century frankness of discussing bodily functions, we know she had her period until she was 56, i.e. she had it for years and years after her husband's death, and until the final two years of that every time with heavy bleedings; that she had a still fertile body even at this age and alone must have seemed like nature mocking her.)
Which creates the severely Albee-esque mother/son dynamic with Joseph who as opposed to his father does want to rule himself, has really different ideas about how a modern monarch should rule and thus starts a constant power struggle with his mother that lasts for fifteen years. (He did like to travel after her death, too, but one major reason why he did it so much when she was still alive was because it gave them a break from each other. At the same time, this isn't a situation like the ones all the Hannover Georges were in where the reigning monarch and whoever was the current Prince of Wales deeply despised each other. They did, for all their arguments, simultanously feel protective of each other (so noble schemer X making snide remarks at the respective other monarch's expense was shut down by both of them immediately and thus didn't happen often), and the can't live with/can't live witout dynamic that evolved really took its toll on everyone.
Simultanously, there were massive Habsburg sibling problems. All the other daughters really REALLY resented Mimi being the favorite who got to choose her own man (well, if you were Carolina stuck with Ferdinand of Naples, wouldn't you?), and without FS as a balancing parent, they couldn't possibly show this directly to MT who was always also the monarch on whose favor everyone was depending on. So it came out in passive aggressive actions and inner sibling fighting instead. Moreover, Joseph's decision to use the entire private millions he'd inherited from FS to balance the state budget caused massive anger especially from Leopold (who pointed out he should be allowed to use at least some of this for Tuscany, his model dukedom,if we were talking state budget only) and Mimi (see earlier "what happened to Marie Christina" post), but to a lesser degree also from the others. Leopold also, again somewhat understandably and not so secretly thought that either MT should have retired or Joseph should have made his "do you want me to resign?" threat real because this co-ruling/cancelling each other out was getting nowhere fast, and he could do a much better job as single ruler than either of them at this point. Which is why you have from one of his last Vienna visits during MT's life time that extraordinarily spiteful secret memorandum outburst on the lines of "Mom's a half senile bitch, Joseph is an overbearing lecturing asshole, I hate them!!!!"
(However, otoh, Leopold: is actually Joseph's primary correspondant among his siblings. When Joseph during his endless travelling stops by in Tuscany, he doesn't just make the polite brief visit, no, he stays around long enough to invent games to play with Leopold's numerous little children, and Leopold, who is very aware how Joseph felt about his own dead daughter, lets him. And even the "I don't get you and your five ladies whom you let argue politics with you, didn't you get enough of that when Mom was alive?" letter is actually written in more of a concerned than in a mocking mode.)
Now MT in her final years didn't have the excellent memory she'd relied upon most of her life anymore, she did forget things, which she noticed herself and remarked on in letters to her ex-lady in waiting and friend Sophie, but she was entirely compos mentis, and of course she noticed that her children were at odds with each other in addition to her being so often at odds with her oldest son. It heightened her unhappiness and depression, but she couldn't find a way out of it (which at this point probably only a retirement on her part could have been, and even that would only have solved some of the problems). If you get around to reading the biography, Cahn, you might want to stop linearly after FS dies and only check out individual events thereafter, because it's really sad to read about.
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-12 09:26 pm (UTC)Now I really want one of those multigenerational sagas that people used to write twenty years ago (do people do that anymore?) based on MT but set in the present day where MT can get therapy and also her kids can do things that don't require them to be beholden to her. :(
actually while I'm making out a wishlist, maybe FS can live longer too(Just checked due to this post, and bio still not out in English. Someday!)
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-14 02:34 pm (UTC)Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-16 08:37 am (UTC)"After the death of his mother Nandi...Shaka ordered that no crops should be planted during the following year of mourning, no milk (the basis of the Zulu diet at the time) was to be used, and any woman who became pregnant was to be killed along with her husband. At least 7,000 people who were deemed to be insufficiently grief-stricken were executed, although the killing was not restricted to humans: cows were slaughtered so that their calves would know what losing a mother felt like."
Predictably, he was assassinated less than a year after this.
How's that for PTSD and absolute power?
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-19 05:05 am (UTC)Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-12 09:19 pm (UTC)My daughter is probably going to end up similarly to you in terms of something of indifference to people bonding, and as far as I know she's had loving relationships, and this is something she was born with. (I like to think it wasn't my parenting!) My son seems to have much more people bonding needs and skills.
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-15 11:22 am (UTC)What I got out my early childhood was the idea that I don't need to please other people (and that saved me when I got a bit older and my parents started signalling that they weren't pleased with me). Fritz did not get that message in his early childhood, not from either of his parents.
I have a more well-thought-out rationale, but it's late and I have a long backlog of comments to work through. ;)
Re: Emotional isolation
Date: 2019-11-15 06:00 pm (UTC)Me: *learns how to slither out of situations, and worries some about pleasing people until I turn 30 or so (at which point I get too busy to care) but other than that doesn't really get all that good at pleasing people or at bonding*
Sister: *worries about pleasing people to an almost pathological degree and is only starting to hesitantly get over it with years of therapy*
I mean, there is definitely a case to be made that my sister and I had different early childhood experiences; I had a personality that was
really unlike Fritzvery conflict-adverse and also I was very good at many things my parents valued (academics, music, competitions), which meant I had less conflict with them. And also I'm certain our mom was less stressed out with one child than with two (now having lived that). But on the other hand I think a large part of what seems to have happened with the two of us is that I didn't need parental validation the same way that she did/does.Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-08 04:59 am (UTC)"My brother had given this name to his flute: observing that he should never be truly in love with any princess but this...it was by way of reply that I called my lute my prince, saying that it was his rival."
Um, between this and Argenore, Wilhelmine, I'm starting to worry about you.
Fritz: Pretty sure I'm either gay or asexual.
Wilhelmine: Might actually be in love with my brother.
Also, granted the memoirs were written at least a decade later, but if Wilhelmine's remembering the aetiology of the name correctly, this is the earliest instance I've seen of Fritz indicating a lack of interest in women, by several years. That is very interesting (to us gossipy sensationalists). I'm even more inclined to take later encounters as het-posing or at best questioning.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-08 07:01 am (UTC)I also suspect all those illnesses, migraines etc. in her later years were her body rebelling against a state she didn’t want but which she consciously couldn’t object to. After all, providing a male heir was a wife’s first duty, she’d been raised to believe that, her mother, no matter how terrible her parents’ marriage, had provided thirteen children, and the Margrave was a far more agreeable husband than FW had ever been. There was no reason she could have voiced, even to herself, for not continuing to have sex with him in order to produce a son after all, especially since her having a daughter proved they could have children.
But emotionally, certainly, she loved Fritz above and beyond (remember that “you could just write ‘my sister, I love you, I love you, my sister’ and I’d be content” outburst I quoted a few posts back) in whatever fashion, and their interactions certainly had at times romantic overtones (secret meeting when Fritz was with Prince Eugen’s army and FW had expressedly forbidden any side trips to Bayreuth, or that time he left a love poem for her to find after another visit to Bayreuth (post estrangement and reconciliation), oh, and he wrote her on his wedding night to EC, dated as such, “I never loved you as much as now, and I want you to believe me”). Also, if you look at their estrangement, all the triggers - Wilhelmine sympathizes with the widowed Duchess of Württemberg about wanting custody of her sons back (and may or may not consider alternative matches for her daughter than the one Fritz wants her to make), the Erlangen journalist writes anti-Fritz articles without immediately getting flung into the dungeon, the Marwitz affair and finally the MT meeting near the end of the second Silesian War - come, in Fritz’ reactions, down to the complaint that she’s prioritizing other people and hence can’t love him anymore. And he gets finally over it when believing her not just on “Marwitz: here’s what happened, and why”, but “of course I still love you more than anyone, please believe me for you are my life”.
Now we do have to take into account that the style of the period was overwrought, and people wrote “your servant, always” and “be assured of my utter devotion” to each other even when having no deep connection at all. There’s at least one Deconstructing Fritz biographer I’ve read who is of the “he didn’t love any of his siblings, including Wilhelmine, he was just being rethorical and obeying the emo letter writing mode of the era” conviction. Which, okay. If you think so, biographer. But I think when he’s writing that suicidal letter mid 7 years war after the defeat of Kolin 1757 that everyone is free to end their misfortunes and “you alone tie me to this earth”, he’s voicing the truth as he feels it at that point. And he’s writing it to someone whom this very suspicious man does believe to feel the same way about him.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-08 07:07 am (UTC)Unsurprisingly, I agree with you. And yes, overwrought style and all, and even I sometimes follow rhetorical conventions (e.g., I will write "love" or "miss you" in places in emails when I feel like a normal human would, even though I'm kind of emotionally detached from other human beings), but while I think Fritz's willingness to express his emotions and the language in which he expresses them is a function of his time and shouldn't be interpreted in a modern context, his reaction to people's deaths alone gives the lie to the idea that all his declarations of love were just a stylistic convention. Stylistic convention is addressing fellow monarchs as "my brother" and then betraying them at every possible opportunity.
Mutual low sex drive: makes perfect sense to me.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 07:09 am (UTC)It did occur to me that all the "so not gay!" protests from earlier historians not withstanding, any prince not at the very least suspected of being, post late teens/early 20s at the latest, uninterested in the female and solely interested in the male sex would be side-eyed for writing lines to his sister like: "I wish with longing (...) for the return of those happy days when your Principe and my Principessa will kiss" and years leter re: his wife apropos their wedding, "She appeared prettier to me today than in the beginning, but that's because she toasted to your health. I said yes to her, not without shedding a few tears. For I have never loved you as much as right now, and I never wished more that you believe me."
Instead, depending on their interpretations, biographers to this day go either "eh, that Rokoko emo rethoric is sure something, but of course it's all fake" or "aw, sibling affection". :)
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 10:40 pm (UTC)Although, I dunno, at least according to her memoirs she seems to have been ill kind of on a regular basis starting in childhood, often around the time someone was horribly abusing her (which of coures doesn't narrow it down a whole lot), so I was at least partially chalking it down to reactions to childhood physical abuse and/or mental-becoming-physical pushback to PTSD problems due to all the abuse.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-16 08:32 am (UTC)Lolsob.
Agreed, I've been attributing Wilhelmine's physical issues to some combination of shallow royal gene pool with lots of recessive conditions, 18th century medical care, and stress. Ongoing sex she didn't want may have formed some part of the stress, but, with all that trauma, probably not the whole of it.
ETA: Also, practically every time I open a letter from Fritz, and I've opened a lot in the last few days for my mapping project, no matter who the recipient is, there's some line where Fritz is commenting on the other person's health, whether it's "Please get better," or "I'm sorry you're feeling worse," or "Oh, thank God you're better!" or "Do you have any updates on so-and-so? I'm worried." It's gotten to the point where I'm surprised if someone in the 18th century is healthy.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-19 05:04 am (UTC)Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-08 09:26 am (UTC)I admit I always thought Fritz's commitment was more a case of defiance than real undying conviction (God knows, I professed belief in things I didn't have strong convictions about as a teenager just because it upset my parents), but so far I haven't seen Wilhelmine doing anything quite this blatant to piss FW off, especially at a time like this--end of 1730. How on earth does she even feel safe enough to do this? Just because she trusts SD not to pass this infraction onto FW, and she's willing to take the risk of someone overhearing?
I mean, what are the options here?
1) Our future freethinkers both genuinely still believe in predestination, to the point where pleasing God is more important than pleasing FW, despite FW treating it as one of Fritz's cardinal sins that he needs to be broken of in Küstrin.
2) Our future freethinking teenagers are both committed to defying FW at all costs just to hang onto some self-respect.
3) Wilhelmine only breaks out the supposed predestination belief to win arguments with her mother (so far, I don't remember any references to her being a good Calvinist until it came time to convince her mother she couldn't promise to adhere to the English marriage at all costs); FW doesn't know anything about it.
4) 1740s Wilhelmine is inserting this into the past to explain how she won the argument with her mother.
5) Technically, I suppose it's possible one of the siblings genuinely believes as a teenager and the other doesn't. I mean, belief is a continuum, but I still think Fritz shows more signs of defiance than conviction.
Any input from people who know Wilhelmine better than I do?
Okay, I searched for "predestination", and there's one occurrence later in volume 1, where 1740s Wilhelmine is stating that she still tends to believe in it...but 1) this is a document intended for (eventual) public consumption, much like her trip to Geneva, 2) it's actually possible to be a freethinker and believe in, or at least entertain the possibility of, a deterministic universe, even a materialistic deterministic universe.
I'm more interested in her dynamic with FW circa 1730, because that seems pretty important, considering the forcefulness of his opinion on the subject. Believing or not believing in a particular tenet of your religion: eh. Professing a belief in the face of your father the absolute monarch forbidding it: actually kind of significant, one way or another.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-08 12:25 pm (UTC)In 1730, she’s under double pressure from both her parents (though for different ends) and separated from Fritz for the time being, and perhaps inclined to grab at any spiritual weapons she can find - both to win her argument with SD and to survive FW.
Then again: I’ve read the transcription of a speech about Wilhelmine given at the University of Bayreuth where the historian giving it says reading through the letters, she finds it striking that Wilhelmine despite her powerful resentment against both her parents (which btw is one of the way she differs from Fritz who I don’t think resented his mother) also never quite manages not to long for their approval and affection, and that her childhood had left her with the ability to lie and dissemble as much as it did Fritz. For example: when after the birth of her daughter her father-in-law, the old Margrave, gifts her a small estate complete with country mansion as a kind of reward, Wilhelmine writes three different letters to Prussia each tailored to their recipient: SD gets a letter about how her marriage is a success, her father-in-law has given her this gift and she’s now able to have concerts and parties in the mansion the way SD does at Monbijou, isn’t this nice? She’s so happy. FW gets a letter where her father-in-law has given her a country estate which she will frugally manage, and included in the package are some sausages which she knows FW will like, are you impressed with me being a good housewife, Dad? (Concerts and salons don’t get mentioned, but here, too, she assures her father she’s having a good life in Bayreuth.) And Fritz gets a letter where the new country mansion isn’t mentioned at all, which is all “miss you, people here are mostly boring and suck, ugh, at least it’s not home but home is still better if you are there”.
To get back to 1730, you have to also consider FW has accused her not just of having aided and abetted her brother but of having slept with her brother’s
loverBff, and he did that in the present of non-family members. Grabbing at a Protestant belief her father can’t object to - it’ s not Catholic, it’ s Protestant - but which is nonetheless very upsetting to him might accomplish the double purpose of reaffirming/restoring her reputation and retaliating. If she also knows Fritz is currently arguing pro pre destination at Küstrin, it’s also a way of expressing solidarity that can’t be held against her because again, this isn’t French philosophy, this is a quite popular Protestant interpretation of faith.ETA: Okay, looked up some more theology in ye early 1730s quotes for you, helpfully already excerpted by a Bayreuth website. In letter 34 (“de la Margrave à Frèdèric (Baireuth, 20 dècembre 1735”) Wilhelmine talks philosophy with Fritz and explains her teacher La Croze’s theory that all things Material consist of atoms moving ceaselessly, but also that said atoms can’t have started this movement by themselves. From this, she concludes there has to be an absolute and independent being („un être absolu et indépendant“) which keeps the atoms moving. Which means there’s a God („cet être est Dieu“). This to me sounds like she’s a deist (comparable to what a great man enlightenment people saw themselves at).
Also, her father had her old governess Fräulein von Sonsfeld (Sonsine) who’d gone with Wilhelmine write to him a report as to how Wilhelmine’s day looks like. Sonsine swears that she reads a bit of the bible to Wilhelmine each morning right after breakfeast while Wilhelmine is doing womanly needlework with her ladies-in-waiting. This, err, is not quite how Wilhelmine describes her days to Fritz, and conspiciously lacks any mentions of concerts, composing and garden plannings which we know she did, so at a guess, Sonsine was covering for her, but it says something about FWs control fetish that he wants even his married off daughter to be supervised and to prove herself a good Christian.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-08 05:17 pm (UTC)But yeah, I seem to remember that my reading was that Wilhelmine kind of hit on it as a method to protest about the whole marriage thing to SD in a way SD and FW couldn't object to; I didn't get the impression she was super committed to it. And is SD really going to tell FW that Wilhelmine is using a method he might not approve of to get out of promising to adhere to a marriage he is totally against? (SD seems to undermine herself sometimes, so maybe? but I can see Wilhelmine taking that gamble.) But I should go back and look when I have time.
Sonsine swears that she reads a bit of the bible to Wilhelmine each morning right after breakfeast while Wilhelmine is doing womanly needlework with her ladies-in-waiting. This, err, is not quite how Wilhelmine describes her days to Fritz
I have a very good impression of Sonsine from the memoirs <3 Haha, I can imagine that Sonsine did that... for about five minutes. Then she can swear to it and Wilhelmine can go off and do her music and gardens. :D
FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-08 05:54 pm (UTC)"The originally Lutheran princes electors of the House of Brandenburg had with Johann Sigismund's conversion in the year 1631 accepted the reformed faith." (I.e. Calvinism as opposed to Lutheran Protestantism.) "In that doctrine, FW, too had been raised. His teacher Rebeur" - why yes, FW had a French Huguenot teacher, are you suprised? He also had a French nurse and a French governess and actually learned German as a second language - "had terrorized the wild and hot tempered crown prince into obedience. Especially the teaching of predestination, being chosen by God, in wich the middle class self confidence of the Calvinists expressed itself had been Rebeur's main means of frightening his student. His adolescent experience, the deep life long fear not to be one of the Chosen Ones caused Friedrich Wilhelm to reject this particular doctrine which the German version of Calvinism had largely abandoned anyway by the time he'd reached his majority. In his state, predestination doctrine was actively fought. It was completely left out of his son's education plan.
For said son, however, it became a tool to fight his father's expectations. (...) If God predestined the path a person chose, thus Friedrich concluded from predestination, then God had also formed a man's character, so how could another man's will change this character? This claim to his individuality lay at the core of his acceptance of the predestination doctrine."
Re: FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-09 01:28 am (UTC)- FW has a chaplain standing by in the room while Katte's head is cut off, ready to bring Fritz back to the true faith (foiled by Fritz promptly fainting and becoming hysterical for 3 days).
- Much of the correspondence during the post-Katte rehabilitation period is months and months of FW going WHEN WILL HE GIVE IN ALREADY? on the subject of predestination.
- Rejecting it was one of the first things Fritz was required to do during that reconciliation with his father, in which he falls to his knees and agrees that his father is right about everything and he'll do anything his father wants forever and ever, just PLEASE let him out of Küstrin
so he can go back to sneaking around and doing and thinking whatever he wants.But maybe Wilhelmine didn't feel more unsafe than usual professing it in the lead-up to Küstrin, especially if she didn't do so to her father's face. I don't actually have any accounts of him beating either her or Fritz up over this doctrine specifically. Just being really, really opposed to it.
Re: FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-09 06:21 am (UTC)I mean, the impression I get is that it went thusly:
*Tiny terror FW beats up future G2, mouths back at M. Rebeur*
R: Good lord, that kid is a handful. How to deal? I know! Predestination! Now, your highness, little boys who are naughty just prove they weren't chosen by God and will go to hell. Let me tell you all about hell. *uses 1700 years of imagery to tap into*
FW *after a lot of nightmares*: That's awful. Screw you, and predestination, and anything French! That all sucks. In MY state, we're going to be good Christians without any of that. MY kids aren't going to learn anything about it.
Posterity: No, your kids are going to afraid of you instead.
Re: FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-09 06:25 am (UTC)Re: FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-09 07:20 am (UTC)Karl Eduard Vehse: Preussens Könige Privat. Berliner Hofgeschichten. Anaconda Verlag, Köln 2006, S. 57.
Re: FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-09 10:46 pm (UTC)If God predestined the path a person chose, thus Friedrich concluded from predestination, then God had also formed a man's character, so how could another man's will change this character?
Hm. I don't know that I entirely agree with you (Fritz) logically speaking, although I see your overall point :P
Re: FW and predestination
Date: 2019-11-09 10:55 pm (UTC)Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 03:08 am (UTC)Same!
Haha, I can imagine that Sonsine did that... for about five minutes. Then she can swear to it and Wilhelmine can go off and do her music and gardens. :D
Agree! This is my impression of almost anyone who had anything to do with young Fritz.
FW: Make my wretched son do X!
Sane person: Yes, Your Majesty! Right away, Your Majesty!
Sane person: Okay, Fritz, he's gone. We will now proceed to observe the letter of what he said and do total violence to the spirit.
Fritz: I am coming through my upbringing with my personality basically intact, due to the vast amounts of outside validation telling me it's not me, it's Dad.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 06:31 am (UTC)Trufax: cutting one's hair was the rebellious anti older generation thing to do two generations later at least in the German speaking territories. See also: French Revolution. A shorter cut was cool, longer hair old fashioned and conservative. Heinrich Heine in his his great satiric poem Deutschland: Ein Wintermärchen makes fun of "Prussian tails" (of hair, he means).
Now granted,for female hair the French ancient regime fashion went to elaborate lengths, see also MA's legendary hairdos, but for men, I don't think so. Especially given that the periwig went out of fashion in FW's youth already.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 06:39 am (UTC)And as for the question of cutting--I *thought* soldiers had to have a long but narrow queue in the back but hair cut shorter in the front and on top (both to keep the queue narrow and to make the wig sit easier)? Certainly judging by the pictures I've seen, and my experience braiding my own hair when I had long hair, if you grow all your hair long and braid it, the result comes out approximately three times as thick as those pictures.
But I could be totally wrong about that. I do know FW objected to Fritz's hairstyle a lot, but I agree this particular anecdote seems rather unsubstantiated. It's in keeping with the theme of "spirit but not letter," though, of which there are numerous substantiated examples.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 03:58 am (UTC)Awww, did you wake up to 6,000 words of comments again? SORRY NOT SORRY. :P
Also, thaaaank you both for giving me a venue for pretty much the only thing my concentration will allow me to do these days: flip through works of non-fiction looking for specific things and then ramble about them. It is sanity-saving not to be bored out of my mind while on medical leave.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 10:48 pm (UTC)But I am always so excited to hear all this great
gossipdiscussion :DMore illustrations - children paintings edition
Date: 2019-11-09 12:13 pm (UTC)Fritz and Wilhelmine
Fritz and his brothers (the order the boys are depicted in: Fritz, Ferdinand, AW, Heinrich).
Re: More illustrations - children paintings edition
Date: 2019-11-09 10:50 pm (UTC)Re: More illustrations - children paintings edition
Date: 2019-11-10 05:14 am (UTC)#PolaroidMoment #18thCentury
Also, remember when Thronfolger FW doesn't want his family to fear him? And I quoted an anecdote about him beating up a Jew while shouting, "You should love me! Not fear me!"? A completely different bio says that FW's instructions to young Fritz's governors are still extant, and they contain, "You are to make him afraid of his mother, but of me, never." The biographer describes this as "curious."
Fear--I don't think it works how you think it works, FW.
Re: More illustrations - children paintings edition
Date: 2019-11-12 09:31 pm (UTC)I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at this. FW, trying to play good cop and bad cop, and just failing miserably!
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 01:39 am (UTC)Yes, it's quite normal for people raised in a religion to take until their twenties (or later) to fully give it up.
he finds it striking that Wilhelmine despite her powerful resentment against both her parents (which btw is one of the way she differs from Fritz who I don’t think resented his mother) also never quite manages not to long for their approval and affection
Yep, that's extremely striking just from her memoirs. Standard child abuse stuff, comparable to adult Fritz badly wanting FW's approval decades after he died.
which btw is one of the way she differs from Fritz who I don’t think resented his mother
Agreed, I haven't seen any signs of him resenting her. I also haven't seen many signs of her mistreating him, but that could go either way. Either he didn't record the verbal abuse and Wilhelmine did because Wilhelmine resented it and Fritz was just so grateful to have an ally against his main enemy that he didn't feel the need to complain about it, or SD focused all of her verbal abuse on her daughter and Fritz got off light from her.
Wilhelmine presents herself as someone caught in the middle trying to achieve the impossible task of pleasing both her parents; Fritz comes across as someone locked in a non-stop battle of wills with his father; while both of them were trying to be true to themselves and loyal to each other in the face of parental resistance.
Man, it really, really sucked to be either of them.
This to me sounds like she’s a deist
Oh, yeah. That's 18th century Lucretian-informed deism right there. Interesting!
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 06:49 am (UTC)That's my theory, not least because of the difference in gender. Fritz was the longed for surviving son and heir. He also was SD's key to future happiness, freedom and respect once FW was dead. And he moved out of her sphere and into her husband's after early childhood, which meant his visits in her household were treasured occasions where he could relax, enjoy art. He did not live in her proximity on a day to day basis.
Whereas Wilhelmine did. She also started out as a disappointment simply due to being a daughter, not a son, something that wasn't true so much for her younger sisters since at that point sons were already there. And then I think she became to SD a second chance to get the life SD herself wanted to have, second hand: Queen of England, not stuck in tiny Prussia with this awful, weird husband whose mannerisms make him the laughing stock of European princes. If she could accomplish that, then SD's life would not have been wasted. So anything that made it look like Wilhelmine wasn't 100% on board with becoming the second SD, the one who gets to be Queen of a powerful nation and live in style and admiration was a personal attack and betrayal.
(Note that Ulrike, the only one of the daughters who actually did become a Queen - of Sweden, granted, less glamorous than England, to be sure, but still, Queen - was also SD's favourite. Validation at last!)
To me, one of the most telling details remains that it needed Fritz' first governess to point out to SD that Leti was physically abusing Wilhelmine and would cripple her for life is this went on much longer. That Wilhelmine didn't feel she could tell this to her mother is of course not that uncommon in abuse situations, because the child is ashamed and feels it's her/his fault, and that doesn't necessarily signify how good or bad the parent/child situation is. Especially in a social situation where parents aren't the one doing the actual hands-on child raising but leave that to servants. But still. If an employee who is actually in charge of another kid is able to notice, I feel judgmental enough to say SD should have.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 10:55 pm (UTC)Huh. This is making a lot of sense to me of a lot of what Wilhelmine says in her memoirs.
So part of me is thinking that presumably Fritz' governess, being both another servant and in charge of a child who plays a lot with Wilhelmine, is in fact somewhat more likely to notice than SD. But on the other hand I can't imagine, say, Maria Theresia not noticing her kid is getting beat up on a regular basis so badly she might get permanently crippled, whether the servants are raising the kid or not.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-09 11:04 pm (UTC)I was actually going to say, it's really telling when Wilhelmine says that the English marriage project would be a perfect fit for her *mother*, but not for her at all. And it is super common for abusive or even emotionally neglectful parents to live vicariously through their children, which it's pretty clear SD is doing here. It's also probably how SD justified her verbal abuse (which she wouldn't have seen as such): she's trying to give her child the best life possible, so why is child so ungrateful??
Along with
1) Wilhelmine says she was straight out lying to her mother about where all the injuries were coming from.
2) My impression of the social dynamics is that servants have a whole separate grapevine amongst themselves, in which people like SD are not supposed to participate. Even if a governess is a step above, say, a parlormaid, there's still a communication divide. So a fellow governess might pick up on abuse first.
But yeah, it's not great, and SD is far from blameless in this episode.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-10 11:56 am (UTC)That is, of course, true. BTW, one of the reasons why the Fritz Crime Boss AU you linked a while ago doesn't really work for me despite being in many regards well written is that AU!Wilhelmine was not abused in any way (other than having to witness what was done to Fritz) and otherwise has a good life, yet they still have their intense sibling bond. Honestly, I think that they were both abused, though not always in the same ways and by the same people, was a key ingredient to this you can't just remove without significantly altering the relationship itself. Leaving aside the question of how much of Fritz' feelings about AW carried resentment that AW was getting treated comparatively affectionate and lenient by FW:I don't think you can form an "us against the world" bond of that nature if the early life experience is so markedly different instead of "we're both in this hell together, but at least we have each other".
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-12 09:30 pm (UTC)Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-15 11:35 am (UTC)1) I'd have to re-read, but I don't remember the AU bond coming across to me as quite so over-the-top intense in that fic as in real life. They're close, but they don't feel like "possible scandal that never happened because of his orientation/their low sex drives." Furthermore, she seems to need him *much* less in this AU than irl, and much less than he needs her.
2) I'm not entirely convinced a protective older sibling in an abuse situation wouldn't lead to a close (but not quite as borderline-romantically intense) relationship, especially one that's slanted more toward him needing her than vice versa. I would say the younger abused child might latch onto whatever affection he could get. (I do think the "older, protective" part is key--AW is a different kettle of fish.) For a fictional example of this dynamic that really works for me: Boromir and Faramir.
But I will think about this next time I reread the fic. It's an interesting thought.
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2019-11-17 07:44 pm (UTC)To go back to Boromir and Faramir again, they're a case of protective older sibling who is not resented by abused younger sibling despite being favored by their father, but Boromir, both film and book version, is anything but idealized. It's hard to compare, because as opposed to AU Wilhelmine he's a main character in the first part of the book/first film, and thus gets way more narrative space to be fleshed out. But let's assume a Gondor-centric version of the story that starts with Faramir's dream and stays with him. Boromir would appear a sympathetic character in regards to Faramir, but there would, presumably, still be some indication on how their father's beliefs and attitudes have formed him as well.
One woman, two pen pals
Date: 2019-11-08 01:51 pm (UTC)“Fritz and Music” book says that after Wilhelmine’s death, she became his go-to correspondant for all matters musical. Hang on, thought I, I know of her, but as Maria Theresia’s most frequent correspondant among German royalty and sort of spy! Back I go to my MT biography, and yep, it’s the same lady. Daughter of MT’s rival on the throne, the short termed Wittelsbach Emperor, sister to that same Max whom MT blackmailed into voting for FS as Emperor and abandon the Wittelsbach claim on the throne if he wanted his dad’s duchy back. During the 7-Years-War (when, you know, Fritz had invaded Saxony) she went into exile to Prague but returned when the dust had settled. Her musical credentials were indeed impeccable, see wiki entry, and she not only composed operas but published them under the nome de plume Ermelinda Talea Pastorella Arcadia, ETPA for short. Because Wilhelmine isn’t the only one who can compose fictionalized RPF operas, one of ETPA’s operas, Talestris, pitches Talestris, Queen of the Amazons, versus Orontes, King of the Scythians. (That opera has a happy ending and war is averted by Amazon/Scythian marriage.)
What I’d like to know: how come Fritz, renowned misogynist with a very very few exceptions, made another one of these for MT’s pen pal?
Re: One woman, two pen pals
Date: 2019-11-09 12:53 am (UTC)What I’d like to know: how come Fritz, renowned misogynist with a very very few exceptions, made another one of these for MT’s pen pal?
I'm less surprised: I feel like Fritz was pretty willing to make exceptions in general, especially in a musical and poetical context. None of which exceptions, of course, ever changed his opinion of the sex as a whole, or led him to treat women as equals, or, say, want them at Sanssouci. "Some of my best friends" etc., etc.
Incidentally, he also attributed some of the apparent inferiority of women to nurture rather than nature. He proposed giving them (at least the nobility) better education, so they had something to think about besides their appearance and pleasure-chasing, and he had some nice things to say about the potential of individual women to be at least as smart/talented as men, as well as the fact that the whole sex could be doing better if they weren't so neglected.
How can you be so close, and yet so far, Fritz? Oh, well.
As far as her being MT's pen pal, Fritz's correspondence with her seems to begin in 1763, at which point he can presumably afford to be more chill about MT? When he went ballistic on Wilhelmine, he was kind of in the *middle* of his wars. And then they made up, what, 1746? You're the one who knows their correspondence in detail, but I'm thinking it was right around the time he got to keep Silesia for reals and calmed down a bit.
What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-08 04:13 pm (UTC)"Her numerous births have made her quite heavy. Nonetheless, she carries herself vivaciously, and has a majestic bearing. Her looks are impressive, though she spoils them by the way she dresses.(...) She has a round face, the hairs are blond without being reddish. Her eyes are large and sparkling, yet due to their bright blue colouring also benevolent. A small nose, neither an eagle's beak nor a pointed stub. The mouth is quite large, but still beautiful. Her teeth are white. A pleasant smile. Her neck and breasts are well formed. (...) Her expression is open and amused. Her look smiling and gracious. One cannot deny that she is a beautiful person."
(At this point, I imagine Fritz drumming his fingers and grumbling "Dude, did I ask ou to write a "MT, Hot or Not?" assessment? Do I need to replace you? What is she like?"
"The Queen (of Hungary) is a good actress. When she ascended the throne, she discovered the secret of appearing lovable and admirable by putting her sex, her beauty and her pregnancies in the foreground. She observed herself and only showed her good sides, friendly, pious, liberal, compassionate, courageous generous; thus, she won the hearts of her subjects. (...) Everyone competed to sacrifice themselves for the best of princesses. But it is hard to maintain an assumed character. The queen could not force herself to do this for long."
So, after the first Silesian War, says the good Ambassador, she revealed her true nature:
Her efforts to disguise her ambition beneath the veil of the dangers she was under relented. One slowly realised that far from being touched by the misery of her people, she was only driven by the ambition to enlarge her territory and thus continued the war without blushing. All the praise the world had heaped on her and a lot of her own self regard gave her a high opinion of her own abilities and made her authoritarian. Now, she listens to little advice, shows as much pride as her ancestors did and shows herself vengeful and unforgiving.
(Three guesses towards whom. However, the ambassador admits that she's not entirely undeserving of praise even now, for:)
"She has a quick and thorough mind and knows to devote herself to the matters of state with an eagerness that helps her solve difficulties. She combines a good memory with an assured judgment. She also knows very well to pretend and to keep her thoughts to herself so I find it difficult to read what is in her heart from her face. Nearly always, she appears to be friendly, warmhearted and encouraging towards those who are shy. Her manners are uncomplicated and thoughtful. She speaks clearly, acts graciously, and sometimes enjoys hearing herself talk. It is still relatively easy to address her, though not as much as at the beginning of her rule. She listens to the suggestions one makes with patience and kindness, and sometimes accepts the petitions for help directly."
But what does her army think of serving a woman who can't command them in the field?
"She is much beloved by the troops whose respect she earned by the courage she showed during the cruel defeats at the start of her rule. It is said that for a time, she was even seriously determined to command her armies herself, before being dissuaded. Generall speaking, she appears to stay away from the weaknesses of her sex and seeks to cultivate the virtues least fitting for it. (...) She seems to dislike being born a woman, for she does not pay enough attention to preserving her beauty,exposing herself without caution to the dangers of the weather, walking outside for hours in searing heat or bitter coldness, which she can endure even better than the heat. She lacks care for her finery, and except for holidays dresses in a simple fashion, with the court following her example."
Now if you've seen any portrait of MT, at whatever age, you might be tempted to exclaim "simple?". But leaving aside all portraits use carefully chosen costumes; what the ambassador here in particular is referring to is that MT, which we know from her letters as well, had no time for those extremely wide hoop skirts which for example her daughter MA favoured; in her every day life, she preferred as small a hoop as she could get away with in the fashion of the day, which made movement easier (especially once she'd gained weight).
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-09 03:50 am (UTC)AHAHAHAHAAA, I'm laughing so hard you have no idea. Fritz! Bielfeld wrote a "Hot or Not" assessment of you in 1738! Admittedly to his brother in a personal capacity, and not to his monarch in an official capacity. Still.
Now if you've seen any portrait of MT, at whatever age, you might be tempted to exclaim "simple?". But leaving aside all portraits use carefully chosen costumes;
Ooh, yes, the part about the hoop is very interesting, but indeed, I would never take a portrait to be representative of a monarch's everyday wear. I have in fact read that the way Fritz was always depicted in uniform after he became king was because that's how he appeared in public and the only way he wanted to be depicted; at home in the palace, he was still attending balls in the kind of fancy French dress that his father objected to so much when he was younger. Which, of course, is completely contrary to the myth of Old Fritz.
she was only driven by the ambition to enlarge her territory
Quelle horreur! A monarch driven only by the ambition to enlarge their territory!
I think I've invoked this quote before, but I can't help it: every time someone gets mad at MT for fighting to regain Silesia, all I can think of is Vizzini. "You're trying to kidnap what I have rightfully stolen!"
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-09 09:38 am (UTC)It's always tricky to assess historical people's looks, and portraits don't help much, since in most cases they've been comimissioned and were executed by painters who wanted to get paid. (Though it's still amazing that Goya was not only paid but was the court painter given how he made the Spanish Royals of his day look.) Beauty ideals change, plus nobility had the advantage of being far better fed and healthier than your avarage citizen, so they must have looked like coming from another world by that virtue alone. For example, when Goethe reports his parents described MT as beautiful to him, I'm taking this to mean that your avarage Frankfurt citizen saw her in her FS coronation finery, as far as one could see from a waving distance, she had regular features, they were impressed, no more than that. The Prussian ambassador who saw her up close and has no reason to flatter her in a report written for her (immune to female charms) arch nemesis is a somewhat more reliable witness, but still,beautiful for a Rokoko princess doesn't necessarily mean more than "had the fashionable colouring (blond, blue eyed) for her day, regular features and enough force of personality and charm to make an impression even after she had put on more weight than even at her era was thought desirable".
Re: Fritz dressing up in French finery out of the public's eye, yup, have read this, too. It seems he and MT went in opposite directions in their private/public looks,since she when representing was supposed to dazzle in her wardrobe. (See the ambassador's disapprovalf or her not doing so outside of the holidays.9
Quelle horreur! A monarch driven only by the ambition to enlarge their territory!
It's shocking, simply shocking. Seriously though, one reads this, remembers whom it's adressed to and wonders "was he trolling Fritz or did he really believe in this double standard so much?" Alas, I fear it was the later.
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-09 10:01 pm (UTC)Along the lines of what you summarize as fashionable coloring for his day, regular features, and enough force of personality and charm to make an impression, even though I don't think anyone's ever convincingly called him good-looking.
"He is not of a remarkable stature, and would not have been chosen to have ruled in the place of Saul, but when we consider the strength and beauty of his genius, we cannot but desire, for the prosperity of the people, to see him fill the throne of Prussia. His features are highly pleasing, with a sprightly look and a noble air, and it depends altogether on himself to appear perfectly engaging. A petit maître of Paris would not perhaps admire his frisure; his hair however is of a bright brown, carelessly curled, but well adapted to his countenance. His large blue eyes have at once something severe, soft, and gracious. I was surprised to find in him so youthful an air. His behavior in every respect, is that of a person of exalted rank, and he is the most polite man in all that kingdom over which he is born to rule."
"His features are highly pleasing" I am taking to mean "regular enough, not strikingly good looking, well fed*, and it barely matters because he has charisma."
* Aside from when his father was starving him, all descriptions of Fritz I've seen, including from his own mouth, have him on the plump side.
Alas, I fear it was the later.
Alas, I'm inclined to agree. Also, let's not forget Fritz's Very Important Historical Claim to Silesia! Obviously MT is in the wrong here. :P
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-09 11:16 pm (UTC)"He is small and of noble comportment. His build is irregular; his hips sit too high and his legs are too fat. He has handsome blue eyes, which bulge out a little too much, but which easily betray his mood; so that their expression changes according to his different states of mind...His hair is thick, he has a winning mouth and nose, his smile is amiable and spiritual, but often bitter and mocking."
Other people who commented on Fritz's eyes being the most striking part of his appearance: Voltaire, Catt, Countess Egloffstein, Lafayette. Given the intensity of his personality, that does not surprise me at all.
"The French seem to have been particularly susceptible to Frederick's big blue eyes—'the most beautiful I have ever seen' was the verdict of the Marquis de Lafayette, who had looked into quite a few beautiful eyes in his time—quoted in Bernd Klesmann, 'Friedrich II. und Frankreich: Faszination und Skepsis,' in Friederisiko, Ausstellung, p. 144."
Ha! Lafayette/Fritz? :P
Voltaire, like Valory, also seems to have found Fritz's smile attractive, at least before their falling out.
Somebody write Fritz/Voltaire:PRe: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-09 11:17 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-10 10:32 am (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-12 09:13 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-14 02:27 pm (UTC)Emmanuel de Croy: Wow. Just wow. Captain Cook is a most valiant man. May he go on exploring the planet some more and write about it so I can read it! Hang on, zomg, I've just remembered: He's British. We're at cold-hot-cold-hot war with England. What if our ships meet him at seas and stop this most wonderful man from exploring? #saveJamesCook
*goes on to write a memo to the French admirality that all French ships should be told to treat Captain Cook with the utmost courtesy should they meet him*
Admirality: Okay, Monsieur Le Duc, you have the requisite number of ancestors, so... I guess we'll forward the memo.
EdC: Excellent! But wait! What if AMERICAN buccaneers encounter and harm wonderful Captain Cook? #saveJamesCook
*off he goes to Franklin*
F: Hi, glad to see you. We're as always out of money and guns and would be grateful for more of same. More Lafayettes, too.
EdC: I sympathize, but that's not why I'm here. We must #saveJamesCook! Promise me! No American ship must ever harm him and stop him from exploring!!!!
F:...Okay.
When I read that I thought the Duke was lucky not to have run into the considerably more short tempered John Adams, who was replacing Franklin as Ambassador until he in turn was replaced by Jefferson. BTW, the Duke was also thrilled when the brothers Montgolfier did their great balloon launch at Versailles, something that's wonderfully visualized in the miniseries John Adams, because Adams, Abigail and Jefferson watched it together, here.
The Duke was so thrilled that he made his own little balloon (without a living person in it) afterwards and send it across the channel in the general direction of Dover, noting in his diary how lucky he was to have lived into a time where people could now fly and the wonderful Captain Cook was exploring the other side of the planet. #saveJamesCook
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-15 11:39 am (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-26 12:13 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-15 05:35 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-12 09:11 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-15 11:48 am (UTC)This is 1785, just a year before Fritz died--possibly from all that snuff-taking. I would love to see a portrait of Old Fritz that depicts the state of his clothes, but I guess that's too much realism even for him. :P I just keep running across it in like every description of a foreign visitor. Nobody can pass by him in their memoirs without mentioning that he's covered in snuff. (I guess it's memorable when you start sneezing as you approach him, which at least one visitor accused him of.)
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-15 06:01 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-18 10:41 am (UTC)Because I have the epic rap battle permanently stuck in my head, I am reminded by this, and also the "as charming an expression...as he can take a rough and threatening one at the head of his troops" in the above quote, of "I've got creative talents and battle malice; hard as steel on the field, genteel in the palace."
This is why people entitle biographies of him with words like "enigma" and "contradictions."
I am also reminded of his ability to charm young Catherine the Great at dinner. He could switch it on when he wanted to, no question.
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-17 07:17 pm (UTC)Re: the eyes, remember when I mentioned that Amalie was supposedly the sibling with the closest physical resemblance to Fritz? Goethe's late age pen pal Zelter, a musician, once got her to let him go through her cherished collection of rare original Bach manuscripts (as far as we know, she did not have an affair with Friedemann, but she did manage to gather the most impressive collection of hand-written Bach scores - both JB himself and his sons; Carl Emmanual also called her his patroness and wrote a dedication to her), and here's how Zelter describes it - Amalie was an old lady at that point:
"Princess Amalie once let me see her musical collection, but only the titles, through the glass of the cupboards. One of the works, she took out, but kept it in her hands, and only let me look. But then I grabbed it in order to further browse through it, and shocked, her eyes grew large as wheels. They were the eyes of her brother."
(„Prinzeß Amalie ließ mich einmal ihre Musikalien sehen, aber nur die Titel, durch das Glas der Schränke. Ein Werk nahm sie heraus, behielt es aber in Händen und ließ mich nur hineingucken. Da griff ich aber zu, um darin blättern zu können, und sie, erschrocken, machte Augen wie Wagenräder. Es waren die Augen ihres Bruders.“)
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-18 03:37 pm (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-19 05:57 am (UTC)Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-09 11:00 pm (UTC)She listens to the suggestions one makes with patience and kindness, and sometimes accepts the petitions for help directly.
Now, she listens to little advice, shows as much pride as her ancestors did and shows herself vengeful and unforgiving.
...these both don't sound consistent, ambassador! Although, lol, I can see how "no, you still can't have Silesia" might come across as "unforgiving" to Fritz partisans.
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-10 10:39 am (UTC)Indeed; this is the same ambassador who wrote "she does not deny your majesty's abilities, but she cannot forgive Silesia" in another dispatch. Basic attitude: why does she keep making a fuss about what we've rightfully stolen, and anyway, it's unwomanly! Why she doesn't spend three hours a day on her make-up and hair style (this was the non-MT avarage for a noble lady in Vienna at that time) is beyond me, unless she really wants to be a man, amirite?
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-15 11:52 am (UTC)But I'm sure Fritz would like her to spend less time managing her country and army so effectively, and more time playing music. :P Much more appropriate for women.
Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote
Date: 2019-11-15 06:02 pm (UTC)this is why I want someone to write itChronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-09 05:58 pm (UTC)Haven't checked out the war stuff yet, but his description of Joseph's visit to Paris is great and also of interest in what it says about how such semi-official visits were handled. (And why it would have been a hell of a bother if Joseph had come officially. Versailles protocol was strict, and the problem alone of the Emperor outranking the King, and in which order which noble had to be received, when it came to seating arrangements would have been a headache. Whereas since officially Joseph was "Graf Falkenstein", he could basically come and go as he wanted and nobles could say hello in whichever order, etc.) (If Fritz had ever made a state visit to Paris, it would have been almost as big a problem - he didn't outrank Louis, but equal rank was a headache, too.) (This was why Wilhelmine travelled as the Gräfin Zollern when being in France, too.)
Now, our diarist is an old fashioned gentlemen who, for example, firmly disapproves of mistresses but once he actually met Pompadour and Dubarry, he found he liked them. He even kept in contact with Dubarry post regime change, and thus learns Joseph has been visiting her as well. (But sadly not what was said. Anyway, I find this intriguing, because there really is no political reason to visit the mistress of a dead king who has zilch current influence and also, since she started out from the gutter, no powerful family to placate.) Having actively fought against Joseph's Mom, he's also sometimes startled at himself for getting along with people who "shed French blood" (that's one way of putting it, Duke, given who started this war) at all, but is positively impressed by ViennaJoe. (Who might be travelling under an alias, but not really in secret. I.e. most people he met knew who he was. They just didn't have to go through elaborate ceremonies.)
The Duke notes that en route through France, Joseph got a lot of popular love in Lorraine, FS's old dukedom (that was given to France as a bribe to accept the Pragmatic Sanction which they kept and promptly ignored anyway), but both impresses and somewhat irritates people by visiting hospitals and cadet schools because "he kept commenting perhaps a bit too accurately", down to arguing anatomy with, for example, the chief surgeon in Metz. (Yep, he's modeled himself on Fritz, alright.)
The first sight the Duke himself catches of Joseph is "a shaby German chaise with post horses driving quickly", with only wet two servants(it's raining) and another one on horseback. ("That's how they always travel in Germany, no matter in which weather or during which time of the year, in open and very ugly carriages.") The Duke is a bit shocked that the HRE is really taking this travelling anonymously thing this far. I mean. One carriage! Three servants only! Horror!
Joseph is en route the Petit Luxembourg where he'll stay during his time in Paris (whereas sister Mimi wasn't allowed to go there, either, when she came later), and presents himself in Versailles on Saturday, April 19th, at a quarter past ten in the morning. The Duke notes Joseph first spends a while locked away alone with MA, then with MA and Louis, the gets presented to the rest of the royal family (the aunts, Louis' brothers and sister): "He appeared as a respectful foreigner who wants to please his hosts. He even wanted to meet the little Duc d'Angouleme." (That would be Louis' kid nephew.) Now it's (public) lunchtime and of course tout Versailles is ogling the Royal family & guest having lunch. ("We noted that he" - Joseph - "drank only water. He wasvery tanned from his travel.")
Next day, Joseph "in a terrible hired carriage" visits the local hospitals (again) ("out of preference or calculation, he seems to be mainly interested in hospitals, universities and all that serves humanity. The evening, he spent at the opera. His French is flawless, he speaks smoothly and wittily, if at times with a German grammatical construction."
The Duke approves less of the fact that Joseph rises at an ungodly early time though he notes that gives Joseph space for more tourist stuff. At half past one, Joseph joins his sister at the Trianon where they lunch a deux without any courtiers (what is going on, wonders the Duke). Or Louis, who has gone hunting. Then they go walking. This seems to be an Austrian habit, notes our narrator:
"Like her brother the Queen often enjoys taking the air, for the empress Maria Theresia has raised them without the former stiffness of the House of Habsburg." This evening, when Joseph enters one of the salons at Versailles without announcement, the Duke finally has the chance to pounce and talk to the visitor himself.
"The Emperor who appeared to be relieved being able to talk to someone and paid me compliments for more than fifteen minutes, and devoted himself exclusively to me with such pleasant and flattering words that it went swimmingly between us. (...) In order to say something, I directed the conversation towards the menagerie which he had visited this morning. He praised it a lot and said "In Vienna, we have a male elephant. Yours is female; I've got a mind to arrange a marriage!" Thus we jested for a while and I was tempted to say that I could imagine an even more important marriage project for him! "
(We're working on it, Duke, we're working on it.) Since it's getting late, Joseph doesn't return to Paris but stays overnight in Versailles, which means sleeping on the floor, since there's little room elsewhere. This shocks the Duke again.
"One notices he's in many ways modelling himself on Charles XII of Sweden and the King of Prussia. But it is strange that someone whom the King has officially adressed as the Queen's brother sleeps at an inn at Versailles on the floor!"
Still, he's won over by our boy. "All appears to be to his credit, and in a natural fashion, for he does not have the time nor the wish to consult a local advisor on manners. The ladies he met, that is, those with offices at Versailles, quite fancy him. But through all the gracious and friendly tone he used, he still remained the Emperor. He honors the education his noble mother has given him. He is sixandthirty years old, and while he lives modestly, one notices he has learned to refine his taste through paying attention. As for myself, I looked at the elephant with great pleasure, which despite being an elephant cow is with nearly seven foot a tall example of its kind. It is at liberty to stroll through the Park each morning. Our rhino, which is unique in Europe, appears to have grown somewhat and amazed me. The camels, dromedars, lions and tigers made for an excellent menagerie, and I noted down the animals still lacking.
When I had changed my clothing, I went to the King's dinner, where I was surprised to hear "the Emperor has done this, the Emperor has done that" etc. Well, a certain difference between the two monarchs is undeniable."
Joseph's ongoing tourist program includes Notre Dame, the palace of justice to attend a trial, and more hospitals. The Duke doesn't have the chance to observe him closely again until he spots Joseph with MA in a salon where MA is gambling. "I observed him mainly because I heard him say that princes should not gamble at high stakes, for it was the money of their subjects they were gambling with - a hint to the Queen. I believe this irritated the Queen a lot. Since both of them are in awe of the Empress, their almighty and ruling mother, the Queen was surely afraid of what he would report in Vienna."
The Duke doesn't miss the symbolism of Joseph being here at al, for:
"If one considers that this famous man, despite the often simple people around him, is the heir of the House of Habsburg and thus as our natural enemy has caused much French blood to be shed, one is allowed to be quite amazed."
Joseph isn't a spoilsport for his sister's entertainment all the time, though, and visits the opera with her repeatedly, which allows the Duke to pounce again.
"He esteems our good French comedies. HIs departure seems to be imminent. He said that he prefers Italian music to our operas, but that Italian comedies were too silly for him, whereas he prefers our comedies in which one could admire the acting and could understand and explore every single character. He never voiced a political opinion and thus appeared inscrutable. When a lady asked him about his opinion on the American rebels, he replied: "Given my profession, Madame, I have to be a Royalist and am not allowed to praise any rebels." Thus he disguised his opinions."
As we get to the end of may, it's noticed that Joseph spends entire days (like May 29th) alone with the Queen and King, sans courtiers and with a lot of strolls through the park. The Duke is too dignified to speculate what they're talking about, he's just sure it's not politics. When Joseph takes off again (in the godawful morning of May 30th, WHY DO THESE GERMANS GET UP SO EARLY ALL THE TIME?), the Duke sums his Joseph impressions up:
"Given his ambition, his fondness of things military and his eagerness to express to succeed in everything, he may have threatening intentinos. And yet he dedicated himself to so many things it one hopes the amiability he's shown and the future years that will pass until the death of his mother will make him lord and master of all will help him grow calmer. Of our kingdom, he has surely won a good impression, and he's bound to love Paris and the French who admired him. All in all this partly dreaded visit has been success. Moreover, he has served as an example to our court and given it an impression of true greatness."
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-09 09:43 pm (UTC)he didn't outrank Louis, but equal rank was a headache, too
Indeed. I am reminded of the Field of Cloth of Gold.
Fritz's problem visiting France seems to be that he genuinely wanted to be incognito, and canceled the trip once that was no longer an option. Although I don't have the primary source on that, so grain of salt, etc., etc.
"In Vienna, we have a male elephant. Yours is female; I've got a mind to arrange a marriage!" Thus we jested for a while and I was tempted to say that I could imagine an even more important marriage project for him!"
LOLOL! Those wacky marriage projects.
in the godawful morning of May 30th, WHY DO THESE GERMANS GET UP SO EARLY ALL THE TIME?
Haha, do we know how early is early? I am reminded of this line from one of Fritz's bios: "Frederick had inherited his minister August Friedrich Eichel from his father. Like Fredersdorf he was a friend in the shadows, his right-hand man and confidant in those moments when his pampered French wits were still asleep in their cots."
down to arguing anatomy with, for example, the chief surgeon in Metz
Lol, I was thinking, "Now what does that remind us of?" Mind you, there are anecdotes of Philip and Alexander doing the same thing, 2000 years earlier.
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-10 11:02 am (UTC)At least neither Joseph nor Fritz (had he gone) were the types to insist on wrestling the French king to show off their manliness only to get humiliatingly beaten in public. :)
(BTW, the rank and status problem, or rather, the acknowledgment or lack of same: that's why I rolled my eyes - one of many times - when The Tudors had Charles V. pay an official state visit to Henry VIII's court and defer to him. In your dreams, Henry.)
(Though that's less tv lack of historicity and more anglo-centric pov with an utter lack of realisation as to what the HRE was, I suppose. And that has a long pre-tv tradition. For example, in Josephine Tey's drama Richard of Bordeaux - which btw I like otherwise - about Richard II - she has Anne of Bohemia, Richard's first wife, refer to herself as a girl from the back of beyond coming to the wonderful English court when marrying Richard. Ahem. Anne was the daughter of Emperor Charles IV, most powerful man of his time. She was the sister of another HRE. She did not marry upwards in this match. Her father's court (mainly in Prague), far from being the back of beyond, was the most cultivated of its time, it was multilingual - her father was fluent in Latin, German, French, Bohemian and Italian - and multinational. But yeah, sure, coming to that island where Richard was thought to be decadent for using forks and hankerchief must have been really dazzling to a poor country girl like her.
Haha, do we know how early is early?
In this particulare case, the Duke writes Joseph and his ugly German carriage leave "at dawn", and since it's May 30th, I'm assuming around 5 am-ish?
Lol, I was thinking, "Now what does that remind us of?" Mind you, there are anecdotes of Philip and Alexander doing the same thing, 2000 years earlier.
Note that Louis XV is utterly lacking in inclination to lecture people about their fields of expertise, though sadly also lacking in inclination to take an interest in anything that's not fun and distracting to him. Like governing.
LOLOL! Those wacky marriage projects.
I would say "well, Joseph is a Habsburg and they take their family motto seriously", but you know, marrying relations off to strategic advantage was what Fritz did a lot, too. Though he probably drew the line at elephants. :)
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-12 09:02 pm (UTC)Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-14 03:00 pm (UTC)Henry VIII, at his prime, i.e. not yet fat and an active sportsman but most certainly already his macho self: So, Francis, this summit may be to foster peace but hey, want to get beaten by me, err, I mean, wrestle a bit?
Henry's courtiers: Agincourt, Agincourt! Show that French guy what's what!
Francis I *sophisticated Renaissance guy, Leonardo da Vinci fan and fans of all things Italy, future father-in-law to Catherine de Medici*: Sure, why not.
You people never remember who actually won the 100 Years War, do you?Henry & Francis: *wrestle*
Henry: Agin - Hang on. Are you - why are you winning? How can you win? At wrestling? AGAINST ME? What about Agincourt?
Francis: It's called tactics and gravity, mon ami.
Henry: *never ever gets over being beaten in public, tries to have his own Agincourt periodically for the rest of his life, fails miserably at it*
If you want the more sober version, it's here.
Field of Cloth of Gold
Date: 2019-11-15 05:38 pm (UTC)Ahahaha, thank you for the link. Wikipedia was not very helpful on this point :)
Re: Field of Cloth of Gold
Date: 2019-11-17 07:07 pm (UTC)Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-18 10:28 am (UTC)Whuuuhh? Wow. That is some wishful thinking right there.
I mean, it's been waaay too long since I even looked at the period in question, and it was never "my period," so I could be misremembering, but didn't Matilda/Maud, a couple centuries earlier, alienate her English subjects during the civil war by considering herself Empress of the Romans first, and Queen of England/Lady of the English second? Granted a lot can change in a couple centuries, but I don't think England becoming *that* prestigious to Continental Europeans was one.
Matilda/Maud,
Unfortunately for her, she was not as successful as MT. She never managed to be formally crowned, and though she contended with him for a long time and had a following, Stephen is the one recognized as king during this period, and she does not get listed as queen in most of the regnal histories, or if so is parenthesized and asterisked. Eventually, she gave up and went back to Normandy (all the rulers of England at this point were descended from Norman William the Conqueror and saw themselves as Normans at least as much, if not more than, rulers of England). Her son continued waging war on Stephen, and eventually there was a treaty in 1153 that recognized Stephen as king until his death, and Matilda's son Henry II as his heir.
Oh, the Holy Roman Empress thing comes in because she was married by her father to Henry V of the HRE when she was young. Very young, as I recall. Okay, Wikipedia says 12. Yep, pretty young. He died about ten years later, and she came home, but she never stopped seeing being empress as her primary claim to fame.
Also, her name is Matilda or Maude, depending on whether you go with the Germanic or French version--both are common in histories--and that's useful, because the name of literally every other woman at the time is also Matilda. Her mother was named Matilda, her father's mother (wife of William the Conqueror) was named Matilda, her cousin Stephen's wife was named Matilda, and it gets really really confusing, really really fast.
Oh, and the one anecdote about her that entered into popular legend that I still remember is that she was being held prisoner by Stephen's forces in a castle, and she made herself a rope out of blankets (??) and lowered herself out the window. It was winter, and everything was covered in snow, so she wore a white nightgown for camouflage, and her escape was successful.
As for Stephen...Wikipedia doesn't have this particular anecdote, but I remember him, aside from being a misogynist, being portrayed as a general softy. Whether you as a historian think this makes him weak or not depends on how much ruthlessness you think is acceptable or necessary in a monarch. But the anecdote I'm remembering, if I'm not thinking of someone else, was that he took a kid hostage and told his father not to do such-and-such in support of Matilda, or he'd kill the guy's son. Bluff called.
Hostage's dad: Fine, kill the kid. I can have another one.
Stephen: Dammit. I can't kill kids. Why did you have to go and put me in this position?
Stephen's supporters: You can't make threats and not follow through! That's what hostages are *for*! What the hell kind of king are you?
Stephen: One that has to sleep at night, dammit.
I feel like this gets contrasted with a case that happened when Stephen was younger and someone else (Henry I?) gouged out two boys' eyes when he had them as hostages? But I'm blanking on names and details.
Oh, man. I went and looked this up. I was right, but it even was worse than I remembered, or in some cases had even learned.
Henry I (Matilda's father, Stephen's uncle) was dealing with a rebellion by his illegitimate daughter Juliana and her husband Eustace. They exchanged hostages, Juliana/Eustace's kids in return for some other important kid belonging to someone on Henry's side. As the dispute went on, Eustace blinded the kid he had as hostage. Henry was then like, "Fine. Fuck it, we're blinding your kids. AKA MY GRANDKIDS."
Moral lesson ensues about how Henry is ruthless enough to be a good king while easy-go-lucky Stephen is not, or alternately how you might invite Stephen to dinner but not Henry. Your role model mileage may vary.
Anyway. This part I learned. Then there's the followup, which I am pretty sure (!!) I did not.
So now Juliana is pissed off and decides to take possession of a castle and put up a fight against Dad. During a truce with her father--a truce!--Juliana fires a bolt from a crossbow at him, but misses. Oops! Henry manages to take the castle from his daughter, but she swims across the moat of freezing water and escapes to join her husband Eustace.
Wow.
See, history is just full of things you never learn in school. And European royals are one big dysfunctional family.
Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-19 06:13 am (UTC)Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-19 08:54 am (UTC)The hostage kid Stephen didn't find himself able to kill was William Marshal, Guillaume le Marechal, as an adult the most famous knight of his era, which is why we have this story. William became bff with Eleanor's and Henry's oldest son Henry (usually nicknamed Hal in novels to differentiate him from his father), after his death entered Henry's service, and lived long enough (i.e. through the reigns of Richard and John) to become regent for John's son the future Henry III.
The problem with Stephen sparing him was indeed that he'd made the threat in the first place and then not following through; not least because there were a lot of nobles, not all supporting Maude but several just in business for themselves, who then revolted and had to be bribed back into following him. "Go raide a few lands and monasteries, have the King reward you with money and more lands so you don't support his cousin Maude" became the tried and true method of noble enrichment, which is why this period is often refered to as "the anarchy".
I've always liked this summary of Maude and Stephen by Sharon Penman in the afterword of her novel about them: It might be said that both Stephen and Maude were victims of their age, for the twelfth century was not friendly terrain for a too-forgiving king or a sovereign queen. HIstory has not been kind to either of them. In Maude's case, I think the judgement might be overly harsh, for if you study her past, you find three Maudes. There was the young woman who made a succssful marriage to a manic depressive and so endeared herself to her German subjects that they were loath to see her return to England and in fact petioned her not to. There was the aging matriarch who passed her last years in Normandy, on excellent terms with the Church and her royal son, respected for the sage counsel she gave Henry. In between, there was the harpy, the termagant so reviled by English chroniclers, whose mistakes were exaggarated and magnified by the hostile male monks writing her history.
Maude could be infuriating and exaspaerating, but she had great courage, and she never lost a certain prickly integrity. As for Stephen, I think the truest verdict was one passed by a contemporary chronicler: "He was a mild man, gentle and good, and did no justice."
Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-21 05:13 pm (UTC)Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-25 02:35 am (UTC)But the question that led to all this: do you know if I was right about Matilda seeing her most important title as that of Empress of the Romans and the English not being too pleased about this, or if I was misremembering? A quick skim of Wikipedia did not enlighten me one way or the other.
why this period is often refered to as "the anarchy".
And unofficially, as the period "when Christ and his saints slept," which is a phrase taken from a contemporary chronicler, and is also the title of that novel to which
Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-25 02:30 pm (UTC)Honestly, I don't know, because I never read a non-fiction book about Matilda specifically (non-fiction biographies of her daughter-in-law didn't cover this), but the impression I did get from a variety of novels was that individual acts aside, what the English (or rather, the Norman barons having holdings in England - Matilda/Maude was the granddaughter of William the Conqueror, after all, and talking about "English" here is a bit misleading) were way more resentful about her second marriage than about her using the title from her first one. This was because Geoffrey d'Anjou, nicknamed "Plantagenet", wasn't Norman. He was Angevin. And of course being a man, her being Queen would mean that REALLY an Angevin would be ruling. Competition! Boo! Never mind that Geoffrey was years younger than Matilda, that her father had forced her to marry him and when she tried to leave him after a miserable first year had forced her to go back. (This was before she'd gotten pregnant with future Henry II.)
Now some of the novels also speculate that since Matilda had grown up and thus been schooled in the HRE (having been married with twelve), she might have been used to the type of deference an Emperor did get and thus was set on a confrontation course with her English (or "English", i.e. Norman) subjects to begin with. But to me that's massive projecting of the idea that anything British was automatically less authoritarian and more proto democratic. Her father, after all, was that charming gentlemen you described earlier who wasn't above blinding his grandkids to make a political point. His court was not one where you messed about with the King. What she probably did imprint on was that in her first marriage, her husband the Emperor despite or because of the age difference actually had included her a lot - German wiki says he had her with him on his various journeys, incuding to Italy when he was duking it out with the Pope in one of those power struggles a great many German Emperors had with a great many Popes, she got crowned as Empress as well, and at one point acted as regent for her husband in Italy when he was in the German speaking territories.
Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-25 08:42 pm (UTC)Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-25 08:49 pm (UTC)Haha, I read a Stephen/Maud-shipping romance that, while it was full of inaccuracies and implausibilities, was probably responsible for more of my vague memories persisting to this day than the few actual histories I read.
Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-29 03:44 am (UTC)Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-11-29 03:51 am (UTC)Jean Plaidy was also only one of the other's several pseudonyms. I happen to know far too much about her and her work because my mother was a fan, and I had so little access to books growing up that I desperately read all my mother's romance novels, even though that's not my genre *at all*. Wikipedia tells me Plaidy (real name Eleanor Hibbert) produced 200 books under her various pseudonyms in her lifetime, which I think has a lot to do with them being so similar.
And now I am glad I have access to other books. :)
Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-12-02 09:20 pm (UTC)Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-12-02 10:18 pm (UTC)Re: Merrie Olde England
Date: 2019-12-05 05:03 pm (UTC)Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Date: 2019-11-10 11:48 am (UTC)Firstly, like all his life, he's a (French) patriot, and when MT's Dad dies and Fritz pounces on Silesia, he's all for France joining the free for all (the plan then being to carry the war right to Vienna and end the House of Habsburg once and for all, with its lands being carved up not just between European powers but other German nobility, and Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach subsequently ruling over a much smaller rearranged HRE. This to our young duke is a cause of joy, I mean, the centuries long Bourbons vs Habsburgs has gone through its latest iteration when MT's Dad was kicked out of Northern Spain and the Bourbon rule over Spain solidified. There is also zero expectation that the Austrians will put up a successful fight; as far as young de Croy is concerned, the "House of Habsburg has ended" with MT's father. She's a woman, yo, and the Lorraine guy is clearly not up to scratch.
Otoh, young de Croy is not at all blind and deaf when attending Karl Albrecht's coronation as Emperor in Frankfurt and thus describes the mood of the German population at the grand ceremony:
The proclamation especially detailed that the Empire had been orphaned after the death of Charles VI, and that the elector's college had according to law and without a dissenting voice voted the Prince Elector of Bavaria as King of the Romans - for obvious reasons, no one mentioned "King of Bohemia" - and that he was supposed to be recognized as such now by everyone. Then the archdeacon shouted a "Vivat Rex", and all attending (mostly Frenchmen) replied with the same call. One could hear the saluts shot from the city walls.
I have to add, though, that there wasn't a single exclamation of joy to be heard in the entire city. Instead, one felt a melancholic mood: nearly all of Germany seems to be angry about this choice. This has reasons. The Germans feel that it was solely the work of France, and partly enforced by our armies standing in Bohemia and Westphalia. They talk of an Emperor cut from French clothing, a puppet of the Cardinal Fleury and the Marechal de Belle-Isle. They also know that this Emperor, even if he was in the possession of Upper Austria and Bohemia, can't offer more than 18.000 men as an army and thus will never be able to stand up to France to which he ows his imperial throne. That thus, it is France deciding over the fate of the Empire, especially since it has split the princes of said Empire into almost equal factions. Moreover, the prince electorate of Bavaria and his house are now forced to incredible expenses which they only could raise by draining their countries dry, with Bavaria already having been in a miserable state. Thus, this day was great for France, the Cardinal and the Marshal, since the Empire recognized the ruler we have given it. For this succes, France has promised to each willing prince the territory he wants at the expense of the House of Habsburg, which will be destroyed. This might burden the Empire for years to come, and the people have been used to the rule of this House, being slaves to habit.
As for the new Emperor and his wife: The Emperor is not beautiful. He appears to be good-natured, though, and shy. The Empress is an ugly woman, very fat, red-faced, has big eyes, but she, too, appears good natured and very shy.
They were also soon out of a home, since on the day of Karl Albrecht's coronation, Austrian troops marched into Linz and were on their way to Munich. The Duke, a man after Fritz' own heart in this regard, keeps to referring to MT as "The Queen of Hungary" through all three Silesian Wars and the 7 Years War, though, and doesn't call her "the Empress" until the MA marriage to the Dauphin is arranged.
Now, when I earlier said the Duke basically disapproves of mistresses, I should have specified: low-born mistresses. He's okay with the noble type. But he's still won over by middle class Jeanne Poisson, laer the Marquise de Pompadeur, and lower class Dubarry. When Madame de Pompadour dies, he has this to say:
She will be greatly missed, for she was goodnatured and helped nearly all who have asked for her help. Thus one of the longest rules I have experienced in my life time ends. It started when she was twenty, in early 1745, and thus lasted nearly twenty years!
I suppose there were hardly any appointments and pardons that did not succeed through her. She only caused the dismissal of the three or four ministers who had tried to get rid of her first. She never did evil, or only if she was forced to, but in her time all kind of misery has happened in France, and so much money was spent in vain! Her death has been the most momentous event to happen in France for a long time. On the one hand, we now have to wait who will succeed in winning the unlimited trust of the King, for he needs someone to help him decide on appointments and pardons. And the entire court system could be toppled by this person. On the other hand, it was Madame de Pompadour who had brought our alliance with Austria into being and kept us loyal to it. Thus, it is now possible that we will have a renewed feud with the Queen of Hungary and have a new war instead of the peace we so direly need.
Not to worry, Duke; MT has no intention of feuding with France again. Note that while the Duke has praise for his King, too - "though nearing 60, he's still the most beautiful man at court", the Duke writes loyally - he's not deluded about his King's ability to rule on his lonesome. The Duke, otoh, decides together with his son to buy shares of the East India Company. Feud with England or not, that's clearly where the money lies. Not in France, alas.
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Date: 2019-11-12 09:05 pm (UTC)Or, maybe I'll just ask, tell me about how Mme de Pompadour brought their alliance with Austria into being?? :)
She's a woman, yo
(it is your fault that my brain immediately capitalized WOMAN)
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Date: 2019-11-14 02:03 pm (UTC)Or, maybe I'll just ask, tell me about how Mme de Pompadour brought their alliance with Austria into being??
I'm currently on the road again and thus separated from most of my books, but things to bear in mind before I proceed with what I recall:
- just how unthinkable a France/Austria alliance was at the time, due to all those centuries of enmity. Not for nothing would poor Marie Antoinette be nicknamed "L'Autriechienne", the Austrian (also a pun on "l'autrie chienne", the other dog), as a derogatory term. We're talking long established loathing and nobody but nobody assuming this would ever change, not least because France was the first to jump on the "let's attack MT" train after Fritz started it with invading Silesia
- Fritz' tendency to go Frank Miller on any prominent woman other than a very few, usually related to him, and call them whores. Mme de Pompadour (as well as the Czarina Elizabeth) were of course the most prominent examples.
- Fritz having left the French in the lurch once he got what he wanted (Silesia), this resulting in the Austrians winning against the French
Kaunitz, MT's (and later Joseph's) PM, at this point new in the business: I have this secret master plan to make Fritz a margrave again.
MT: I'm listening.
Kaunitz: It involves allying ourselves with the French and the Russians.
MT: Still listening, but will the French? Last I heard, Louis (XV) and his cabinet still call me "The Queen of Hungary" and hate our guts.
Kaunitz: .... well, how about we approach the King's mistress for help? She's a smart woman and not too fond of being constantly called a whore. I mean, I know you're really opposed to extramarital sex yourself, your highness, but Louis is the biggest practicioner of them all, and we're talking to him anyway. Remember the end goal!
MT: Still listening.
Austrian Ambassador: So, my sovereign wonders whether you could possibly influence the King to sign up in an anti-Fritz-league?
Pompadour: This country sure needs a new policy. We've been stuck in a rut since Louis XIV. Sign me on. But make it a strictly defense pact at first, that'll make it easier to sell it to Louis. To become a fighting alliance only if Fritz attacks first.
MT in Vienna: eh, he's bound to, being him. Okay, convey my thanks to the Marquise.
Elizabeth in Russia: *joins up as well, on the same condition*
Fritz: *hears about MT, Elizabeth and Pompadour ganging up on him* I'm the modern Orpheus, persecuted by a gang of women who want to tear me apart. Okay, time to pre-emptively invade Saxony.
7 Years War: begins
Fritz: *wins early victories*
Louis: Darling, was that really a good idea? I mean, I can't stand the man, either, but the Austrians are our traditional enemies and the Prussians our traditional allies, so...
Pompadour: Look, if there's one thing the last decade or two have shown, it's that the current King of Prussia is the worst ally ever. Whereas MT might have no sense of fashion and no appreciation for Voltaire, but she's loyal. She's never screwed over a single one of her allies and supporters.
France: *stays in*
Fritz: *starts losing battles*
Wilhelmine: I'm really worried about your life, bro. Of course you're still the greatest military genius over, but you're not immune to bullets, and you're in the field a lot. Do you think you could maybe try for a separate peace with France? I could play unofficial ambassador via the mail, because people still write to me, and vice versa.
Fritz: Not that I'm afraid of anything, but you're in a bad state of health, and thus, solely to indulge you... maybe? Theoretically.
Wilhelmine: Obviously, the person to ask, DIPLOMATICALLY, is the Marquise de Pompadour, if that's cool with you?
Fritz: Eh. Why not. Tell her I'm willing to pay up to XXXXX Francs (sorry, I can't remember the exact sum from the letter), that should cover it.
Pompadour: Dear mutual friend, tell the Margravine to tell her brother this is one whore he'll never be able to afford. If he wants peace, he can send an official emissary to his majesty the king. And the Empress.
Fritz: Women! *writes a satirical pamphlet/forgery consisting of a supposed letter from MT to the Marquise which a lot of contemporaries take for the genuine article, with MT calling Pompadour "dearest sister"; this was meant to, and did cause indignation about MT being a hypocrite and traitor to royal dignity for negotiating with a whore*
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Date: 2019-11-15 05:32 pm (UTC)literally was trained to become a royal mistress one day by her ambitious mother (despite not being of noble blood, which until then was a strict condition)
I gotta wonder how that even works. "This has never been possible before... but on the off chance that it is... you're going to do it, daughter!" No wait, on second thought, I've known a bunch of tiger moms, it just goes to show that some things transcend the ages, and one of them is over-ambitious moms who sometimes actually succeed.
When she married, she did warn her husband what she had in mind, but promised she would be loyal otherwise. (He became the father of her only daughter.)
That is suuuuper interesting.
In her most famous portrait, she's depicting holding a copy of the dictionary by Diderot and D'Alembert, which is a statement because that book was forbidden by censorship at the time.
So by the time I got to the end of htis paragraph, and before I even got to Austria, I was wondering if there is a decent biography of her I can look at. The first one that comes up at Amazon is by Nancy Mitford, which I'm discarding from consideration, of course. Do you happen to know any? I also came across the memoirs of one of her maids, which I've downloaded.
Pompadour: This country sure needs a new policy. We've been stuck in a rut since Louis XIV. Sign me on. But make it a strictly defense pact at first, that'll make it easier to sell it to Louis. To become a fighting alliance only if Fritz attacks first.
MT in Vienna: eh, he's bound to, being him. Okay, convey my thanks to the Marquise.
HEE.
Fritz: *hears about MT, Elizabeth and Pompadour ganging up on him* I'm the modern Orpheus, persecuted by a gang of women who want to tear me apart. Okay, time to pre-emptively invade Saxony.
As usual, all together: oh Fritz.
Pompadour: Dear mutual friend, tell the Margravine to tell her brother this is one whore he'll never be able to afford.
OMG she is awesome!
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Date: 2019-11-17 07:28 pm (UTC)But here are some nice things to look at, from the Doctor Who episode starring her. Basic background info for non-Whovians - the Doctor is an alien time traveller, but in this particular case, the way he keeps running into Reinette (btw that was an actual nickname, the episode didn't make that up, and that her mother nicknamed her "little Queen" already tells you all about her mother) isn't by his usual means of (time) transportation but via a portal in a mysterious space ship he and his friends are stranded on, full of automatons that want something from Reinette and keep showing up at different points in her life via said portal. Our hero follows and thus runs into her as well, first as a child, then as an adult.
first time the Doctor meets an adult Reinette, played by Sophia Myles who manages to radiate intelligence and mischief beautifully.
Rokoko era mindmeld, as the Doctor tries to figure out what the hell the automatons want from Reinette
Versailles under attack, and Reinette shows why she's the first woman of France
Doctor Who
Date: 2019-11-19 06:08 am (UTC)(also I have to watch Doctor Who, don't I :P )
Re: Doctor Who
Date: 2019-11-22 12:50 pm (UTC)Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-12 09:00 pm (UTC)"Given my profession, Madame, I have to be a Royalist and am not allowed to praise any rebels."
hee, I love it!
(We're working on it, Duke, we're working on it.)
lol forever!
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-14 02:13 pm (UTC)Me too. This actually had been a tricky question, because on the one hand, France was supporting the American rebels as part of its anti-British policy, but on the other, the King of England, good old George III, was still also Prince Elector of Hannover, and thus a key peer in the HRE. Which Joseph was the ruler of. So both "yay rebels!" and "rebels are the worst!" would have been a slight to someone. This being said, I think the phrase does allow speculation he might have had sneaking sympathies overseas nonetheless.
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Date: 2019-11-15 05:33 pm (UTC)Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-10 03:52 pm (UTC)W: My dearest brother, the days appear years to me since I have lived for five weeks without news from you. Despite all the entertaining experiences I have had here, I wish I was in Rome right now, where your letters are adressed to. The interests of my heart will always outweigh everything for me me, and there, my dear brother rules like an absolute despot, so that one line from him weighs more than all the largesse I am seeing every day. We will leave Florence in two days.
I am like a person born blind who is learning to see bit by bit, and learns new concepts with this. All I have seen from Italy so far surpasses everything I've been told about it. I often feel myself enchanted and believe I must be living in an illusion.
F: My dearest sister, I had the pleasure of receiving your letter from Florence. It contains, dearest sister, any beautiful churches, monuments and antiques, but I must confess to be thoroughly saddened not to find the one thing I truly searched for: the restoratio of your health. In moderation, I believe movement could help you. But I am afraid that the burdens of a long journey will exhaust you too much. You will find Italy as an old coquette who fancies herself as beautiful as in her youth and who may bear some traces that allow a conclusion of how she must have been.
*lengthy rant about how and why the Italy of today and nearly all Italians of today must truly suck and can't possibly be enjoyed, but then*
I ask for a thousand pardons about my idle chatter. Maybe I am like the fox who found the grapes sour which he could not consume, or like the galley slave who has gotten into the habit of rowing his galley and looks with scorn at those enjoying their freedom. I beg you, do not forget the teutonic inhabitants on the shores of the Eastern sea. And may the beautiful climate of Italy not cause you aversion to the freeze of the climate at home.
ZOMG, mes amies, could he have been afraid she'd stay in Italy and he wouldn't see her again?
W: My dearest brother, I must admit to being very sad today. I have just lost a dear friend who always cheered me up and was more fond of me than any humans. My poor Folichon has died in Bayreuth of old age. I had left him there, for I was afraid he would suffer an accident on this journey, for which he was too old in any case. You, my dearest brother, know how much pain such a loss can cause while most of the world makes fun of it. But it seems to me that once one knows what human beings are like, one should try to distance oneself from them, for how many more virtues can we find at those we call animals than with the beings gifted with reason! I see those with reason talk nonsense on a daily basis, and favour evil. There could not have been a more sincere and faithful friend - People came, dear brother, and have stopped me moralizing.
Next, she's off to Naples
W: I'm here since the 27th. The street that leads here seems to be the way to hell. I could never stand the Appii, but right now, I hate them with a vengeance, having travelled on the terrible road they've constructed. I was sick and couldn't walk for days.
(The famous Appian Way was indeed in a terrible state at that point, but come on, Wilhelmine, it was 1700 years old!)
(...) The King here spends his days hunting and fishing while the Queen runs all state business. Yesterday I was in Pozzuoli, in Baja and Cumuae. Rarely have I felt such vivid pleasure. I have visited all the living spaces of the Ancients. There can be nothing more admirable than the Piscina of Lucullus which is still preserved.
(Description ensues. Wilhelmine actually means the "piscina mirabilis", the gigantic underground water cisterns through which the Romans supplied the city with water - and which still supplied Naples with water when she was there. They were active until a mid 19th century earthquake. Today, you can still sightsee there, and they're truly amazing.)
La Condamine and i crawled on all fours inside and climbed back on ladders. In short, we are now adventures immortal by our research and have called this our descent into the underworld. (...) Herculaneum, on the other hand, does not live up to its descriptions. It is like a quarry, with lava walls. One doesn't see anything. While I was there, though, two beautiful mosaic floors were discovered. (...) If we had tools, we'd have taken them with us. I'd have acted like St. Francis in order to send them to you.
<(Wilhelmine is confusing St. Francis with St Crispin who stole leather in order to make shoes for the poor.)
F: My dearest sister, (...) I must admit that I would consider it glorious to have travelled on the Via Appia and that there is nothing I wouldn't give, including a broken rib, in order to be in this earthly paradise. Well, it is not given to everyone to travel to Corinth.
(Editor's footnote: "Travel to Corinth: French saying for making an expensive or morally questionable journey.)
You, my dearest sister, must feel the joy of seeing Italy more than anyone else; you, who knows the history so well and who can treasure antiques. For those Spaniards and Saxons transported to Naples the ancient names are just fancy words. (...) Such a poor species of people lives in this beautiful land now; Julius Caesar, if he came back, would be amazed to find such Iroquois as the owners of his country.
And so forth. Then he reports their mother will visit him in Potsdam, because guess what? There's an English marriage to be arranged! (Between Charlotte's oldest daughter and the current Prince of Wales, though actually Charlotte was supposed to bring ALL her daughters to Hannover for inspection)
It was demanded that she should bring her daughters to Hannover where she'll have the honour of getting face to face with his Britannic Majesty, an honour I do not envy for the world.
Wilhelmine is back in Rome
W: I must, my dear brother, report a miraculous, extraordinary, strange adventure which you won't have expected. You will have a saint in your family, and that saint is myself. I am now a martyr of our holy religion. This pillar of the true faith has not bent her knees to the antichrist. The Roman ladies are terrified and will not see or receive Satan's helper, to wit, me. Discreetly, the Pope does what he can in order to calm everyone down. Like the Cardinal Valenti, who thus is a kind of romantic go between, he tries to be agreeable to me as much as he can, for not a day passes when he doesn't tell me compliments from the Pope. And thus you have my confession. If I could have seen his Holiness, I may have made him my Cicisbeo, for I admit to you I am a bit attracted to the fantastic. But alas, our love was not to be. Now I'm not seeing anyone, which suits me well, since all these visits were killing me. (...) I am up and about all day in the town, though, in order to discover the traces of ancient Rome. One has to get up on montains or into ruined buildings or sometimes descend into the earth, but it is possible. (...) Yesterday I have read a delightful Italian sonnet about you, my dearest brother. In it, you get compared to Julius Caesar. At the end, it says that Caesar wrote his life anew, and that only you were worthy of writing yours. Now you have caused me to make so many bowings and pleasantries that I'll get my hips out of joint, for people talk so much about you to me, knowing this is an assured way to prologne a conversation with me, for no one is dearer to me than my dear brother, whose devoted and obedient sister I shall aways be - Wilhelmine.
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-12 09:42 pm (UTC)But it seems to me that once one knows what human beings are like, one should try to distance oneself from them, for how many more virtues can we find at those we call animals than with the beings gifted with reason!
This makes me sad for Wilhelmine and Fritz :(
If I could have seen his Holiness, I may have made him my Cicisbeo, for I admit to you I am a bit attracted to the fantastic. But alas, our love was not to be.
This is the best. Wilhemine is legit The BEST. (I had to look up cicisbeo, though :D)
By the way, thank you for the footnotes/notes, as I would not have picked up on any of that :P
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-14 10:04 am (UTC)Wilhelmine, Fritz and their "dogs are the better people" conviction: in addition to their background, Wilhelmine had lived through the Bayreuth town residence burning down, with her and the Margrave in it, and the Bayreuth population not lifting a finger to help them, or to quench the fire. Obviously, they made it out alive, but that experience deeply shocked her, not least because it underscored how unpopular they both were. The main reason was money, i.e. her building the beautiful Eremitage and the gorgeous Rokoko opera house (that several generations later would be Wagner's reason for moving to Bayreuth in the first place), along with the garden of Sanspareil, and the Margrave living in Rokoko prince style (provincial edition), too. Not to mention that the Bayreuth/Prussia alliance meant Franconians ended up as soldiers in the various conflicts between Fritz & MT. Now Fritz who spent even more money on cultural things and whose fault most of the wars were still was (for most of his reign) very popular and beloved in his kingdom because nobody doubted he was simultanously a workoholic and he took that "first servant of the state" thing seriously. But the Margrave was decidedly not a workoholic, and Wilhelmine wasn't allowed to do any governing because WOMAN. So they had the "this couple taxes us and spends our money on their hobbies, AND our sons are prone to die in wars we have zilch to do with" anger from the population.
I went !! at the bit where Fritz actually had the self-awareness to pick up that he might be sour-graping :D
Same here, when I first read it. I was also struck by the second image he uses, of the galley slave.
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-15 05:23 pm (UTC)though personally I am happy she built the opera houseRe: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-17 08:03 pm (UTC)Bayreuth went from being a sleepy provincial town to, well, still a sleepy town but with some magnificent architecture and gardening, as well as a first class musical ensemble during Wilhelmine's life time and then, a century later, becoming a world musical centre again because Wagner originally had fallen in love with Wilhelmine's opera house before realising he still needed his own building to stage the Ring in. All of which is due to Wilhelmine, which is why current day Bayreuth loves her. It's still understandable 18th century Bayreuth had problems, though!
(Tellingly, when the town residence burned rumor claimed the Margrave burned it down himself because he and his wife wanted to build yet more new mansions. This was rubbish, not least because the Margrave wasn't suicidal or murder-inclined, and the wretched building had burned with him and Wilhelmine inside it. But it says something about how the population saw them.)
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-18 09:37 am (UTC)*nod* A lot of history is like this. Algarotti had the reverse problem! Everyone who met him loved him, but he didn't do enough for his birthplace to make future residents happy with him.
The opera house is lovely. Thank you for the video.
But it says something about how the population saw them.
Yeah, yikes. On another sweet sibling note, Fritz at least came through with replacement books, music, clothes, etc. for them.
Wilhelmine: Dear brother, you know how it goes when you're super depressed and you don't even have flute music to take your mind off your miseries? That's my husband right now. Could you maybe send a flute and some Quantz concertos to cheer him up? It would do him a world of good.
Fritz: Yes, yes, absolutely, they're on their way now. Anything for my sister. Please make a list of what else you lost, both of you, so I can make good on your losses. The important thing is that you didn't die. As long as you're alive, we can fix the rest. PLEASE DON'T DIE. NEVER DIE. (5 years before she died, about a year and a half before she and her husband left for Italy hoping to improve her health.)
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-19 06:22 am (UTC)Awwww, yeah, they must really have disliked them :(
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-19 12:32 pm (UTC)That must have been one brutal wake-up call. :/
Re: Sibling Correspondance
Date: 2019-11-15 12:08 pm (UTC)ZOMG, mes amies, could he have been afraid she'd stay in Italy and he wouldn't see her again?
ZOMG. He had *just* lost Algarotti to Italy for health or "health" reasons. He couldn't know this, but he'd never see Algarotti again, and he was clearly starting to worry. The language he uses to her is much the same as he uses to Algarotti. "J'aimerais mieux que vous fussiez à Pise pour autre chose que pour y soigner votre santé, comme dit la chanson du pape. Vous obligera-t-elle de renoncer à l'Allemagne et aux climats hyperboréens?"
It makes so much sense if he's worrying about losing Wilhelmine there forever.
Omg, *hugs all of them*. You don't know how often I fantasize about giving them proper medical care to go with their therapists. Fritz has already gotten gene therapy in my head!
I went !! at the bit where Fritz actually had the self-awareness to pick up that he might be sour-graping :D
Same here, when I first read it. I was also struck by the second image he uses, of the galley slave.
Same! He has his moments of self-awareness, but then his behavior is such that you're always surprised when you see one.
The galley slave analogy is telling, agreed. He has another one (I think in that physical bio I flip through once in a while, but can't find quotes on demand) saying that he would go to Italy, but he's tethered like a goat (iirc?) to Prussia.
Okay, bed now, really. If you see me commenting again in the next 10 hours, tell me sternly to go away. :P
Re: Sibling Correspondance - I
Date: 2019-11-17 06:32 pm (UTC)Also I found out who the Erlangen journalist was. And where he went after escaping arrest. Naturally, he went to Vienna. :)
Okay, letter quotes: Cahn, as Mildred mentioned, SD and FW had to try a few times before having a surviving male child, and there were in fact two more boys born between Wilhelmine and Fritz, who both died. Grandpa F1 (the maligned by his grandson baroque party boy) was still alive then, and thus has the honor of being the first to report on the Wilhelmine/Fritz relationship. When reporting this latest grandson is still surviving, F1 writes in a letter from February 8th 1712 on his grandchildren: „Our children are still all healthy, especially the prince of Prussia, and it is strange that the princess loves him so dearly, for she despised her first two brothers.“
Bear in mind we’re talking about a toddler here (Wilhelmine was three years older than Fritz.) Now given Wilhelmine was the oldest, and was left in no doubt that she should have been a boy and the boys born after her were the ones to really count, which presumably meant they were also getting the majority of attention in the nursery, I‘m not surprised baby Wilhelmine didn‘t like the other babies; it‘s more surprising three-years-old Wilhelmine should take to the latest arrival. But apparantly she did, without question. (And since F1 isn‘t a later biographer blessed with hindsight but writing in his present with no knowledge this newest boy would survive, he can‘t have made it up.)
I confess I tended to take Wilhelmine‘s memoir claims to having been a clever, admired child early on with a grain of salt, but no, the English ambassador (admittedly with the awareness SD was pushing the English marriage and thus keeping an extra eye on her) reports in 1716: „The oldest princess is one of the most charming children I‘ve seen. She dances very well, her attitude surpasses her years, and so does her mind.“ Alas, grandfather George I was less impressed; that scene in „Der Thronfolger“ when he says to SD „she‘s tall for her age“ and otherwise mainly talks to Fritz is confirmed by ambassador as well.
Leti, for all that she was an abusive fright, also managed to give Wilhelmine a first class education. Wilhelmine started with not yet five years of age to write letters to her father, with only a few days interruption, at this point not solely in French but also in German, which is interesting since Leti was Italian and her other teacher, Monsieur de Croze, was French (so who did talk German to her?), but later exclusively in French. (Which, remember, FW for all his later rants at Fritz was fluent in since it had been his first language as well, courtesy of his own French governess.) These early letters are by Wilhelmine (i.e. not in the handwriting of the governess) and show her as a child eager to impress her father and longing for his affection; on May 8th 1717 she reports proudly that she‘s been brave as two of her (milk) teeth have been pulled and includes them in her letter (they still exist). She swears five years Fritz is doing really really well with the military drill he‘s supposed to undergo, FW can be proud of him, but she also reports on more harmless stuff: „On Sunday a man will come who has a dog who can talk to his master in German, French and English!“
There‘s one of these letters from child!Wilhelmine, though, which shows that much as she loved Fritz, she had her moments of resenting having to take second place to him, too. In May 1719, she writes to FW:
„I am very hurt that you have done my brother the honor of writing to him whereas I, who have written 100 000 letters to you, have never received a single one from you in return. I know very well that my brother deserves more acknowledgement as he is a boy, but it is not my fault that I am not, and I am my dear Papa‘s daughter, too, and I love him. I have been told that my dear Papa only writes to officers, and if this is true, I would like to have a military rank as well. Mademoiselle Leti says I could be a good dragooner‘s captain, if my dear Papa would accept one who wears a dress, but I believe she is making fun of me when she says this.“
She was ten when she wrote this, and it was, of course, (near the end of) a time when she didn‘t actually seee much of her father; a more present FW and the developing warfare between him and SD, complete with first row sight on what it actually meant for Fritz to have FW's full attention, was a cure against longing for his presence, but the longing for acknowledgement and affection despite the simultanously growing resentment because of how abusive he got never completely went away. And this letter from ten-years-old Wilhelmine along with quotes I was already familiar with re: her birth in her memoirs, or that quote in a letter to Fritz about her granddaughter („of that gender first despised and then put on a pedestal and bartered away“) feed into my theory that for that she was of course a product of her time and accepted a great many of its attitudes, some sense of injustice at the way she was regarded as lesser, because female, never went away. And I do think this lay at the heart of her wanting to meet MT in person (and her lame „no, I don‘t admire the Queen of Hungary, I just acknowledge her abilities like those of everyone else“ defense to Fritz afterwards). Because MT, with one and three quarters Silesian Wars behind her, might not have been able to keep Silesia from Fritz but she‘d managed to keep the rest of her Empire intact when basically everyone had expected it would get carved up, she had defied everyone‘s predictions and was proving that a woman could, in fact, rule and get obeyed, not in far away England or Russia, but in the HRE. And this was the one chance in a lifetime to meet her.
(The political reason for someone from Bayreuth to receive MT at all was obvious. Due to her deal with Max von Wittelsbach - Bavaria back vs FS as Emperor - the small principality of Bayreuth know was surrounded by pro-Habsburg countries, not to mention that since FS was about to be crowned, MT was about to be Empress and thus at least nominally the Margrave's liege lady. But like I said - Wilhelmine could have played sick - given the number of times she actually was sick, it wouldn't have been that much of a stretch - and she didn't.)
Oster, as mentioned, is mostly good with dates, and also with keeping in mind circumstances of writing and pointing out contraditctions (between memoirs and letters, for example), and when he quotes from the various ambassadors, he always mentions the then current interests of whichever country the ambassador in question represents. So, the dates for Wilhelmine's estrangement from plus reconciliaton with Fritz:
Summer of 1743: Württemberg trouble with the Dowager Duchess and Wilhelmine appearing, in Fritz' eyes, lukewarm about marrying her daughter to Carl Eugen
January 1744: L'Affaire Marwitz heads towards its climax as Wilhelmine pushes for the Marwitz/Burghaus marriage; this is when Fritz switches from the usual "dearest sister" greeting in the letters to "Madam Sister" (ouch), while Wilhelmine doesn't confess why she wants to marry Marwitz off (and out of the country) so urgently and instead counters the Fritzian argument of "when you left Berlin, you promised Dad you wouldn't marry off any of the Marwitz daughters to a non-Prussian" with "any promise I had to make to Dad was blackmailed and died with him, and I can't believe you're using that argument with me"
July 1744: Johann Gottfried Groß, chief editor of the "Christian-Erlangisches Zeitungs-Extrakt" starts to publish articles with a lot of Fritz critique
12. November 1744: Fritz writes to Wilhelmine that he would never allow any scribbler to print insulting things about his family in HIS country, and in his next letter includes two copies of particularly offensive to him editions of said newspaper
January 1745: Wilhelmine writes that Groß has been arrested, but when Fritz writes back that fine, the guy can go free if he is never allowed to publish again, she has to confess that in fact Groß hightailed it out of Bayreuth before an arrest could be made.
20. January 1745: Karl VII, the former Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach dies; MT offers her "Bavaria vs vote for FS" deal to Max of Wittelsbach and starts to campaign among the other princes for votes
13. September 1745: FS is officially voted in as Emperor by all the German princes elector (minus Fritz who has a votes Prince Elector of Brandenburg; eventually, as part of the second Silesian peace treaty, he'll provide his belated vote as well))
20. September 1745: Coronation of FS in Frankfurt; en route to said coronation, but the biography does not specify on which day exactly, MT passes through Emskirchen which is Bayreuth principality territory, and there has lunch with Wilhelmine
=> all hell breaks loose.
Before Fritz fires off his letter, though, everyone else does, starting with SD, who writes to brother AW: "Your Bayreuth sister has committed a new idiocy by going to Emskirchen to see the Queen of Hungary. I have written a deservedly angry letter to her about this affair. I don't know what the King will say to this latest extravaganza of hers, but I am deeply distressed", and adds that Friederike Luise, who is married to the Margrave of Ansbach (next door to Bayreuth, so to speak, in terms of principalities) has to be stopped from committing the same "madness". Ulrike from Sweden joins in with a letter to Wilhelmine along the same "how could you be so foolish and treacherous?" lines.
22. November 1745: Fritz invades Saxony (the first time). This basically ends the second Silesian War, with MT agreeing to letting Fritz have Silesia, Fritz belatedly voting for FS as Emperor and writes to Wilhelmine the "have made peace with YOUR FRIEND THE QUEEN OF HUNGARY" letter I already mentioned, along with Wilhelmine's "yay peace! she's not my friend, though cool" reply. Or, to quote it in the original phrasing: "Regarding the Queen of Hungary, I have never had a preference for her or a particular attachment to her interests. I simply do justice to her good qualities and consider it permitted to esteem all people who possess these." (Countered with "you are a traitor and a miscreant" type of letters.)
First half of 1746: Wilhelmine writes a lot of apology and explanation letters.
July 1746: Fritz starts to sound somewhat mollified in his "my heart will speak in your favour even if my head doesn't" letter. More cautious correspondance ensues.
Summer of 1747: Wilhelmine gets sent to a spa by her doctors again. There, she meets a lady-in-waiting to Elisabeth Christine and conspires with her to a coup that will bring the definite reconciliation with her brother: a surprise visit to Berlin. She goes back with the lady to Berlin.
15. August 1747: Wilhelmine sees Fritz for the first time in years. Hugs, tears and happiness ensue.
(She stayed for a while. The English ambassador to Prussia (a new one, who hadn't met her before and thus reports on her to London) writes home re: Wilhelmine at this point in her life: "She regards all time as wasted which isn't spent with books or with people who interest her. She spends all her time by conducting witty conversations with her brother, writing voluminous books and has other books read to her."
Oktober 1747: Wilhelmine is back in Bayreuth and kicks out Marwitz, or tries to. This is when Marwitz pulls the "make your brother pay me my inheritance, or I'll continue to screw your husband" gambit and Wilhelmine has to to explain all. (Marwitz then at last leaves Bayreuth in early 1748 with her Austrian husband.)
Worthy of note and unknown to me before: she explains it to AW as well as Fritz. Because during the time of estrangement, Fritz to convey his displeasure had made AW write to her in his place occasionally, which is when Wilhelmine's actual relationship to this younger brother starts. He also argued in her favour (the only family member to do so), as she will plead for him in the last year of her life and his. Heinrich, she properly meets as an adult for longer when he and youngest brother Ferdinand (they were 22 and 18 at that point) come to her daughter's wedding (September 1748).
The biography offers a bit more of a picture of the Margrave: he was on his Grand Tour when summoned back by his father to marry (which meant he got to see France and the Netherlands but no more). FW did a 180 on his opinion on him; at first, when he didn't know the young man, the future Margrave was simply a means to an end (get Wihelmine married to a non-English minor prince once and for all), and then when he actually got to know him he found out to his displeasure young Friedrich (!) didn't like hunting (!!), played the flute (!!!) and when FW made him drink an entire big cup of beer in one go (you know, the thing that had had unfortunate results with another Friedrich before), was angry enough about this treatment to actually tell his father-in-law just this. (Well, future Margrave had not grown up with FW and thus did not know you do not call out the King on being a bully and a boor.) This happened during Wilhelmine's first post-wedding and birth of daughter visit home to Berlin, and for the not yet Margrave, it was the last visit to his father-in-law as well. Unfortunately, they were financially dependent on FW. Not least because FW, as one last humililiation before the wedding, had Wilhelmine not just renounce her claims to the Prussian succession (as was the custom for all the pincesses once they married) but all claims to her mother's inheritance (i.e. money), which meant she was basically without a dowry. And her father-in-law had only wanted that marriage because of FW's famously filled treasury, what with Bayreuith being a small and indebted principality.
Re: Sibling Correspondance - I
Date: 2019-11-19 05:43 am (UTC)Why doesn't anyone want to translate a biography of Wilhelmine to English?? Why? No, don't tell meRe child!Wilhelmine and baby!Fritz: Huh! I wonder if Wilhelmine was just the right age to think babies were cute and want to bond with a baby, or something. (My 4-year-old has just asked for a new baby. No new baby is forthcoming
since I am not a royal person in the 18th Century oh my GOD)And I do think this lay at the heart of her wanting to meet MT in person
This makes total sense to me and I really like your ideas here. (I'd say I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, but... I think I already do :D )
Waaaaait, I didn't realize that W meets MT right after she's been crowned Empress! (Or FS has been crowned emperor, whatever.) Not surprising Fritz is upset, being Fritz.
(Also, man, SD and Ulrike, can you let up for one minute?)
I went to look at those letters around the time of all hell breaking loose. HOLY COW. My French is not good enough to translate easily or well, but it's good enough to get a general sense of Fritz being Fritz and Wilhelmine trying really hard not to set him off. (And setting him off.) Eek.
Whoa, that's interesting about the Margrave. Hopefully he and Wilhelmine got along (besides the mistresses)? I gave up on the memoirs before there was too much about him, although it was pretty clear she didn't get along with the father-in-law, and rather better with her husband.
Re: Sibling Correspondance - I
Date: 2019-11-19 09:13 am (UTC)Technically Wilhelmine met her after FS had been voted in as Emperor (September 13th) and before his coronation (September 20th), MT was en route to same. Which is why SD in her letters is all "don't you dare meeting that woman on her way back to Austria as well!!!"
Hopefully he and Wilhelmine got along (besides the mistresses)?
As noble/royal marriages went, they had a reasonably good one. Their best time was just after that disastrous visit to Berlin where FW gave her husband the Fritz treatment. When they returned to Bayreuth and were reunited with their baby daughter (whom they hadn't brought along, because bringing a baby on the long way from Bayreuth to Berin was basically inviting death to the kid), the future Margrave turned out to be an a loving dad. (Obvious comparisons to FW and SD being obvious.) Writes Wilhelmine to Fritz: He spends the entire day with the child and rises two hours earlier than usual to go to her. He considers her a masterpiece of nature, like the owl in the fable who thinks its young far more beautiful than any others. He basically asked me on his knees not to tell you, for he is ashamed of this, but I ask you to tease him about it, for I consider it adorable. As he has admitted to me, he prefers the child's cries to the most beautiful music.
Basically the one jerk move he made in the marriage was to make his first mistress a woman Wilhelmine had until then considered a close friend, and that's as much on Marwitz' shoulders as on his. (Post-Marwitz, he still cheated occasionally, but with one night stands, not with another maitresse en titre.) He does come across as concerned for her (that trip to France and Italy was for her, and at some risk to him due to the "they're going to convert to Catholicism!" rumors), and certainly put up with his wife's insane family reasonably well (FW excepted), corresponding not just with the purse-string holding oldest brother but the younger ones as well. And he loved music and literature enough so they really had shared interests. Given Wilhelmine had to pick between him and two other candidates post-Katte's death when FW bullied her into it, and the two other candidates later turned out to be lousy husbands to the wives they did get, she certainly made the right choice.
Re: Sibling Correspondance - I
Date: 2019-11-21 05:15 pm (UTC)Yeah, one of the reasons I was hoping he was OK was because I hadn't managed to read enough in the memoirs to figure out how they made out, but it was pretty clear already that the two other candidates were awful and she didn't like them At All.
Re: Sibling Correspondance - I
Date: 2019-11-21 05:29 pm (UTC)Re: Sibling Correspondance - II
Date: 2019-11-17 06:32 pm (UTC)7 Years War: After the AW/Fritz break up, Fritz informed Wilhelmine of it (and told her what he told everyone at the time, that AW was guilty of the near catastrophe): To which Wilhelmine replied, urging Fritz to forgive him: "He has written two letters to me about his losses. He believes to have lost his honor and reputation. Maybe his behaviour was wrong; he is passionate and at times rules by his passions, but he is assuredly good natured."
She also wrote to AW: "You have no idea what evil results the estrangement between the both of you has. (...) Remember, the one you feel so much bitterness for is your brother, your blood and more. Please forget what has happened. I am convinced the King will then do the same. I'd give my life for all of you to be reconciled."
Then SD died; Fritz told Wilhelmine in his letter "We don't have a mother anymore", but at that point she already knew via their youngest sister Amalie, whose letter had reached her first. And then Fritz started to write despairing letters with a sort of suicidal sub (or not so sub) text ("If I had followed my inclination, I'd have made an end immediately after the unfortunate battle I lost (Kolin)") ; she wrote encouraging and loving letters back, but she was already very sick and definitely very worried, though she tried to keep the former from Fritz as long as she could (though she did write to Amalie about it). He started to win battles again in late 1757. AW died on June 12th 1758; Heinrich visited Wilhelmine in Bayreuth in July, but did not tell her, because he was deeply shocked when he saw her, recognizing at once she was dying herself, and wrote to Fritz "I am very much afraid that she will not recover from this illness". Fritz finally told her in his letter from July 12th, but the Margrave - who'd already been told by Heinrich - kept the letter from Wilhelmine for a while, fearing this would finish her. Naturally, not getting news from Fritz instead made her afraid something had happened to him, so the Margrave finally forwarded the letter after all. The last letters from Fritz thereafter are all frantic pleas with her not to die: "I was more dead than living when I received your letter. My god, your writing! (...) I beg you - avoid all efforts, so your illness does not get worse. As sick and miserable as you are, you still think about my miseries? That is going too far. PLease think of yourself instead and tell yourself that without you, there is no more happiness in life for me, and my life depends on yours."
(BTW, Voltaire, who had kept up his correspondance with her post their encounter in France again, urged her to stay alive for peace in Europe, as he hoped she'd be able to mediate between Fritz and the other powers: "Never, Madame, did you have so much cause to live as right now." No pressure, Voltaire.)
Oster also quotes Henri de Catt quoting Fritz after he learned about her death: "How shall I get back my sister!" (It's a much longer outburst than that Oster quotes, but the first sentence struck me the most, because it's very King Lear - no more, no more. Oster says Wilhelmine died in the arms of her daughter (who'd left her husband Carl Eugen for good at that point and was living with her parents again) and husband, so she was not alone. She'd known she wouldn't recover for a while at that point, and had written to Fritz in her last letter: "I have accepted my fate. I will live and die content as long as I know you will be happy again."
Re: Sibling Correspondance - II
Date: 2019-11-18 08:37 am (UTC)two of her (milk) teeth have been pulled and includes them in her letter (they still exist)
Wooow. Are they on display somewhere?
Which reminds me, I have read (unreliable source) that Katte's grave was robbed by souvenir-hunters over the years, and people have helped themselves to teeth, the burial shroud, the cracked vertebra (how's that for gruesome?), and I forget what else. I say unreliable, but that's pretty damn typical of human beings, and Fritz memorabilia being in such high demand after 1786, so...I consider it plausible at the very least.
young Friedrich (!) didn't like hunting (!!), played the flute (!!!)
Wilhelmine: I can work with this.
FW made him drink an entire big cup of beer in one go (you know, the thing that had had unfortunate results with another Friedrich before)
Ahahahahaaa. Well, from FW's perspective, it didn't work out too badly! He did get to hear about how he was a bully and a boor first, but then he seemed just a bit disconcerted but generally pleased when Fritz started crying and kissing his hands.
(Go home, Fritz, you're drunk.)
Fritz to convey his displeasure had made AW write to her in his place occasionally
Wow. That was unknown to me. That's...some serious displeasure.
The Italian journey: if Fritz was, in fact, afraid of her staying in Italy in that letter I quoted, he wasn't being paranoid. She was tempted, because she was happy there, the climate while at first not as warm as was typical agreed with her
It's interesting seeing the same events from multiple perspectives. You mentioned a while back, in the first description you made of her trip, that Italy was unseasonably cold that year. When I went to read through the Algarotti/Fritz correspondence, I got to 1753/1754 and saw Algarotti complaining to Fritz, "We're getting about as much sun here as you would get in London," and I thought of Wilhelmine.
Then there was the letter where Algarotti tells Fritz how he met Wilhelmine, and everyone in Venice was really nice to her, and Fritz replies, "So I heard!" Now we get to see Wilhelmine talking about Algarotti, and backing his "I'm super sick!" story. (Like I said, his decreased productivity and travel after 1753 really backs the idea to me that he wasn't just avoiding Fritz.)
Cahn: As you can tell from the letter, she'd met Algarotti before. This was in 1740, just after Fritz became king, when he decided to visit her and then dart over to Strasbourg, incognito, with Algarotti, in hopes of doing a full Paris trip. As you recall, the incognito thing fell apart immediately, and he went home. But Wilhelmine recording liking Algarotti a lot, as pretty much everyone did. He seems to have had incredibly winning ways. (A footnote in the Lady Mary correspondence says that he was described as a total people-pleaser, which I think played a role in his gift for amicable non-breakups.)
As sick and miserable as you are, you still think about my miseries? That is going too far.
Wow. "I'm exempting you from the usual rule of putting me and my wars first!" That's some true sibling love right there.
No pressure, Voltaire.
No pressure! Also wow, in a different way.
Anyway, thanks for this whole thing, it was all gold. You are compensating in a serious way for my inability to read 1) German, 2) physical books. <3
Go home, Fritz, you're drunk
Date: 2019-11-18 12:15 pm (UTC)* Saxon envoy to Berlin at the time, later to St. Petersburg. The same Suhm who was later Fritz's close friend at Rheinsberg, whose translation of Wolff for Fritz was set on fire by Fritz's monkey. Fritz's nickname for him was "Diaphane", which one of my sources says may be a play on "Durchlaucht", usually translated "Serene Highness" in English and used for minor German princes, but we're not sure.
** He of the 354 supposed illegitimate children, father of Orzelska.
Anyway, translation mine with help from the internet (Google Translate and some dictionaries). I've bracketed a few places where I could use clarification.
"October 21, 1728,
"Finally the St. Hubert's Hunt came. Etiquette dictates that the Crown Prince sit opposite the King at the table and act as host. I sat next to him and also across from the Queen. All the companions at table had to keep pace with the King in drinking; only I [And here I need either a clearer translation or else some cultural context for how Suhm got out of this requirement: 'nur mir liess er etwas darin nach, weil ich dazu begnadigt worden war, als ich nach Beendigung der Jagd die Taufe erhalten hatte']...
"The Crown Prince drank a lot, but only against his will [any further nuance of 'mit Widerwillen' would be appreciated], as he later confided to me. It meant that he would be sick the next day. Finally the wine began to have an effect on him. He spoke quite loudly of all the grounds that he had for being unhappy with his lot in life. The queen kept waving at me to signal me to make him be quiet, and I did everything I could. I asked him to use what little sense he had left.
"But it didn't help at all: on the contrary, he turned all the way toward me and said everything that came to his tongue...
"Suddenly, the King asked me, 'What is he saying?'
"I replied that the Crown Prince was drunk and couldn't stop himself any more.
"The King answered, 'Oh, he's just pretending. But what's he saying?'
"I replied that he had squeezed my arm the whole time and said that although the King made him drink too much, he still loved him.
"The King repeated that the Crown Prince was only pretending to be drunk. I replied that I could testify that he really was: he had squeezed me so hard in the arm that I couldn't move it.
"Then the Crown Prince suddenly became very serious about that. Then the wine got the upper hand again, and he started to talk again. The Queen was so embarrassed she left the table. Everyone stood up, but only to sit down again. General Keppel and I asked the Crown Prince to go to bed, since he really couldn't hold himself upright any more.
"To this, the Crown Prince began to cry ['schreien'] that he wanted to kiss the King's hand first. The others called out that this was right. The King laughed, when he saw the condition the Prince was in, and held out his hand across the table. But the Crown Prince also wanted to have the other, and he kissed them both, one after another, swore that he loved him with all his heart, and had the King bend over so he could hug him.
"Everyone called, 'Long live the Crown Prince!' This got the Crown Prince even more worked up; he stood up, walked around the table, embraced the King intimately, sank onto one knee, and stayed a long time in that position, all the while talking to the King.
"His Majesty was deeply affected and kept saying, 'Now, that's very good, just be an honest fellow, just be honest,' and so on. The whole proceeding was extremely moving and moved most of those present to tears.
"Finally, the Prince was lifted up. The King lifted up the table. ['hob die Tafel auf'--What? Why? Does this mean he released everyone by standing up?] Herr von Keppel, I, and several officers carried the Prince to his room and put him to bed."
Footnote in my source: "Eyewitnesses expressed the not entirely unfounded opinion that Friedrich's performance was a cleverly calculated comedy."
Okay, eyewitnesses. It's painful to think about either way.
Re: Go home, Fritz, you're drunk
Date: 2019-11-18 09:41 pm (UTC)Translation: "Only towards me he was more lenient, as I had been pardoned" - here in the sense of "had been given more leaveway" - "due to having gotten my baptism after the hunt was finished".
I'm assuming "baptism" means Suhm hadn't been hunting before, or at least not with FW. It puts me in mind of today's ceremonies when you cross the aequator for the first time, or travel with a balloon for the first time. Champagne is involved, and it's refered to as a baptism as well. Anyway, that's why Suhm hadn't to Keep pace with FW drinking.
"Widerwillen": actually means more "intense dislike", though the literal Translation of the word means "against one's will", that's true.
"Schreien" usually means more "scream" than "cry", but in this particular description I'd translate it as "cry" as well.
"Lifted up the table" made me laugh out loud, because it's one of those expressions that sound funny if you translate them literally - like "it's raining cats and dogs" sounds hilarious to us in German if you render it word by word. It simply means FW gave the signal that mealtime was over and everyone could go. It's an old fashioned expression these days, very occasionally still used.
Re: Go home, Fritz, you're drunk
Date: 2019-11-19 06:20 am (UTC)"Baptism": that makes sense, thank you. I was trying to figure out how a literal Christian baptism would work at all in this context.
"Lifted up the table": good to see my guess from context was pretty much right.
Re: Sibling Correspondance - II
Date: 2019-11-19 07:21 am (UTC)(Must have gone something like this: G: Mein Führer, let me impress you on your birthday with a bunch of letters of our heroic Frederick the Great who proves that you can emerge from a three front war covered in glory and success.
H: Just what I've been saying, but alas, if these are in French again, I can't read them.
G: Not so! These are authentic Frederick the Great letters in German! Proving his touching utterly platonic regard for his loyal servant. May they inspire you in these dark days!
...yep, being in a fandom with them is the worst.
Katte souvenir hunters: haven't heard that, but would believe it, because yes, people do that, and did.
That was unknown to me. That's...some serious displeasure.
No kidding. Have now ordered Eva Ziebura's AW biography from the library (it doesn't have her Heinrich one, alas); the reviews of same mention that because he was FW's favourite son, he used to be the mediator between his father and the other siblings, so that was one family role he was used to. (But presumably did not expect having to take between Fritz and Wilhelmine. The age gap between AW and the oldest two practically ensured he didn't really relate to them until years later - he was, what, eight when Katte died?) In case you're wondering, Oster along with other biographers says FW's favourite daughter was Friederike Luise. He also liked Ulrike a lot, but Friederike Luise was the one getting letters a few months after her wedding like "My dearest darling Ickerle, I haven't written to you for such a long, long time and have gotten so many letters from you. My dearest daughter, do not forget your father who loves you with all his heart and soul. God be praised you are well" and so forth, signing off with "I am, keeping my dearest daughter in my heart until death, your faithful father FW". (So yes, he could write to girls.)
Friederike Luise, who was the first of the siblings to get married - and that her marriage to the Margrave of Ansbach got negotiated quickly and went with minimum fuss while the English marriage negotiations for Wilhelmine and Fritz were simultanously in an endless loop must have made the later all the more irritating for FW - gets one memorable scene in Wilhelmine's memoirs shortly before her wedding. Friederike Luise, as a reminder is 15, the sibling born after Fritz. Her marriage will be truly miserable and she'll sink into depression (she also developed symptoms of porphyria, supporting the theory that both FW and Fritz could have had it), but as of yet, she's a spirited girl who actually talks back at FW thusly:
"(The King) asked my sister whether she was looking forward to her marriage and how she planned on conducting her household. My sister had established a footing with him where she told him everything frankly, even hard truths, without him getting enraged by it. Thus, she replied with her usual frankness that she would offer a good and richly decorated table at meals, which, as she added, "Shall be better than yours; and when I get chldren, I will not maltreat them as you do, nor force them to eat things that disagree with them." "What do you mean by this," the King asked, "what is lacking at my table?"
"It lacks," she said, "because one doesn't get full on it, and that the few things offered consist of heavy vegetables which we cannot stomach." The King was already indignant about the first reply, but the later caused him to explode, yet his entire fury fell on my brother and myself. First, he threw a plate in the direction of my brother's head who evaded the throw, and then he let one fly in my direction. I avoided it as well.These first hostilities were followed by a hailstorm of abuse."
That FW isn't angry with the child who actually backmouthed but his two older children demonstrates, among other things, that they've become his lightning rods at this time. (And btw, also worth noting that Fritz had to my knowledge a non-relationship - neither positive nor negative - with Friederike Luise, who was after all only as many years younger than him as Wilhelmine was older and in theory could have been close. Ansbach was next to Bayreuth, but he never visited her when visiting Wilhelmine. She was also not present at the wedding of Wilhelmine's daughter, which practically happened next door to her, but as Oster says, at this point she'd already succumed to depression and likely porphyria enough to become a total hermit.
"I'm exempting you from the usual rule of putting me and my wars first!" That's some true sibling love right there.
Indeed, and since we've quoted ample examples of his other tendencies, I thought it only fair to include this. He really did love her above and beyond.
Voltaire: quite. In the spirit of fairness as well, he did write an ode to her after her death he included in the first edition of Candide, and got tearful with Fritz years later about her; I don't think it was just because of what her brother might still do for him. Speaking of Voltaire and dead women, his remark about Madame de Pompadour after her death in a letter to a friend also sound genuine: : "I am very sad at the death of Madame de Pompadour. I was indebted to her and I mourn her out of gratitude. It seems absurd that while an ancient pen-pusher like me, hardly able to walk, should still be alive, a beautiful woman, in the midst of a splendid career, should die at the age of forty-two."
ETA: Forgot, about future Margrave of Bayreuth going through the same hunt + having to empty a big cup of beer experience with FW, Oster frustratingly doesn't provide a literal quote, just a paraphrase, but he does make it sound as if FW had decided to give this son-in-law the (almost) full Fritz treatment. Re: the regiment, when marrying Bayreuth Friedrich had asked for a Prussian one in order to please his future father-in-law and his father at the same time (remember, Bayreuth was a small principality).
Oster: "(The drink) didn't agree with (Bayreuth Friedrich), which must have confirmed the King's opinion of him, especially since the drunken prince did not hold back with his opinion on the King's behavior. Friedrich Wilhelm then took to refering to his son-in-law as an "ass and simpleton". He said he would "educate him in his own style, or he wouldn't be FW". Openly, he demanded the officers of Friedrich's regiment should mock and taunt their superior. That was too much even for the Queen who otherwise didn't think much of her unwanted son-in-law, but now spiritedly made it clear to her husband that everything had its limits. "I tremble," Wilhelmine wrote on January 13th 1733 to her brother, "that he treats him the way he has treated you. I don't know what he holds against him."
Nothing, one might add, though Wilhelmine wasn't wrong in her fear: The King wanted to break his son-in-law the same way he'd broken his son. Every bit of pride, every will power was to be eliminated. But Wilhelmine's husband hadn't gone through Friedrich's childhood. He faced his father-in-law's behavior with utter disbelief. He had no intention of being broken and being censored."
(Future Margrave: WTF? What did I marry into? WTF is going on here????)
Re: Sibling Correspondance - II
Date: 2019-11-21 05:02 pm (UTC)Aw man, this is just classic golden-child scapegoat familial relations :(
I really like that quote from Voltaire <3 :(
Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-28 03:06 am (UTC)...yep, being in a fandom with them is the worst.
I went on a scavenger hunt for Fredersdorf material today, found an article describing this episode, and it said the context was even worse: the letters were valued because they contained anti-Semitic comments from Old Fritz. Because while Fritz was often liberal for his time, he lived in dark times. *facepalm* Fucking out of my fandom now, Nazis! Nobody invited you.
Anyway. This article said something about 300 pages of Fritz/Fredersdorf letters. The University of Trier site has roughly 30 pages. And while I was churning through these letters in Google translate, I did not see a bunch of things I'd seen quoted elsewhere, leading me to believe Trier has only a small sample.
So I went and looked for the book that I keep seeing cited for the Fritz/Fredersdorf correspondence, and Amazon said it was 400+ pages. Amazon also said it was $5.48.
You can guess what happened.
Yes, mes amies, I ordered yet another hard copy of a book that I can't physically hold without pain, in a language I don't know, at a time when I'm not working and shouldn't be buying books (but it was only $5!). Because fandom plus bibliophilia really messes with your mind.
Anyway. It's on its way. Among other things, I want to see if it has any material on or post-dating the estrangement. Various of my sources say Fredersdorf was dismissed over financial irregularities in mid-1757, and he proceeded to die in January 1758, after a lengthy illness, wracked with grief over his disgrace. If you know your chronology, you may compare AW, who was dismissed over a military failure in mid-1757 and proceeded to die in mid-1758, after a somewhat less lengthy illness, wracked with grief over his disgrace.
Fritz, in mid-1757, was writing suicidal-sounding letters after a major military defeat. I'm guessing his mood and his interpersonal relations at this time had something of a chicken-and-egg effect on each other. Then everyone dies in 1757-1758, his sister on the day of an even bigger military disaster, and he becomes even more depressed. A year later, the ultimate military defeat happens, surviving loved ones are thin on the ground, and Fritz tells Catt, "You know, if I ever look like I'm about to be captured, I'm taking a fatal dose of opium so fast it'll make your head spin."
Speaking of Catt: interesting Fredersdorf parallels. Fritz meets Fredersdorf shortly after Katte's death. They're together for 26 years. During this time, Fredersdorf gets married, which makes Fritz unhappy. After 26 years, Fritz dismisses him for financial irregularities. Within a year, he's taken Catt on. Catt is with him for 24 years. During this time, Catt gets married, which makes Fritz unhappy (okay, this part was kind of a thing). After 24 years, Fritz dismisses him for financial irregularities. Catt does not proceed to die, but outlives Fritz by a good many years (being a good many years younger).
But what I really came here to say, is that I have to share this absolutely endearing, ship-writes-itself moment from the Fritz/Fredersdorf letters.
In April 1754, while Fredersdorf was extremely ill and housebound, and Fritz was frantically writing
touching utterly platonic"For God's sake, take care of yourself!" letters to him, Fritz wrote the following: "I'm planning on riding out today around noon. Come to the window, I want to see you; but keep the window shut and make sure there's a strong fire in your room."I AWWWed out loud. I'm still AWWWing. When you're traveling on business all the time, and you don't have FaceTime or WhatsApp, you have to get creative to see your sick loved ones. <3
Actual quote to Fredersdorf from the same year: "Monday I go to the camp in Spandau, Friday I'm back here, Monday to Berlin, then Tuesday to Silesia*."
Related quote, also from 1754, which made me laugh out loud: "Tomorrow I'm leaving, but on Monday I'm coming back, and then no devil will get me out of Potsdam, or the King of England will have to come here with his Russians to besiege me."
* It's August, so time for those autumn military reviews
which are going to pay off in a few years.You know...it occurs to me this might be the context for that galley slave comment to Wilhelmine. She's about to leave for Italy in a couple months, and Fritz is thinking, "I just want to see my sick boyfriend here in Berlin, and I can hardly even do that." :(
But seriously. Sick Fredersdorf coming to the window so Fritz can see him as he rides past his house, omg. <333 4ever
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-28 10:18 am (UTC)Heinrich's boyfriends got married to, and not just when they left him, a la Mara; the last one, the beautiful French emigré count, picked up a wife who became part of the Rheinsberg circle and lived long enough for a young Theodor Fontane to meet her and get some first hand accounts of Heinrich in his old age. (And of her husband, which explains the enthusiastic description of his looks and charm in the Wanderungen!) The widow was a cat lover and died, Fontane says, in a Rococo way - one of her favored cats bit her on the lower lip, the wound got infected, and that was that.
Fredersdorff also makes it into the Wanderungen apropos Zernikow, the estate he managed and Fontane has this to say:
For eighteen years, from 1740 to 1758, Fredersdorff was in possession of Zernikow, to which fact we pose the question whether he was a blessing to the village and its inhabitants or not. The answer to the question is quite in his favor. While having ambition and an unmistakable desire for respect and wealth, he has been mainly of a kind and benevolent nature, and he turned out to be mild, indulgent, helpful, as a landlord. His farmers and day laborers fared well. And as for the inhabitants at the time, he was fortunate enough for the village itself. Most innovations, as far as they are not merely the beautification, can be traced back to him. He found a neglected piece of sand and left behind a well-cultivated estate, which he had given partly through investments of all kinds, partly through the purchase of meadows and forests, which he usually needed. The activity he developed was great. Colonists and craftsmen were consulted and weaving and straw-weaving were done by diligent hands. At the same time and with fondness he adopted the silk industry. Gardens and paths were planted with mulberry trees (as many as 8,000 by 1747), and the following year he had for the first time a net yield of the reeled silk. No sooner did he find a piece of good clay soil on his field-mark than a brick-work was already built, so that in 1746 he was able to build the still existing house from self-made stones. In the same year he introduced, as well as in Spandau and Köpenick, large brewery buildings in which the so-called "Fredersdorffer beer" named after him was brewed. In everything, he proved to be the eager disciple of his royal master, and in the whole manner in which he set things in motion, it became clear that he was to follow the king's organizational plans with understanding, and to use them as a model. Many tried, though he found it easier than most, especially with regard to the means of execution, since a king who could write to him: "If there was a means in the world to help you in two minutes, I wanted to buy it, be it as expensive as it may, " was probably prepared to help with gifts and advances of all kinds. It seems, however, that these aids always remained within a limited range, and that the improvements did not take until 1750 on a larger scale, where Fredersdorff had married Karoline Marie Elisabeth Daum, the wealthy heiress of Banquier Daum, who had died in 1743. At least starting from there from those purchases of goods, which I have already mentioned above. Fredersdorff lived with his young wife in a very happy but childless marriage. It is not to be supposed that he was in Zernikow all the time, but it seems that from 1750 onwards (ie after his marriage) he was at least as often as possible on his estate and liked to spend the summer months there. Whether he had practiced his alchemical arts and gold-making experiments even in rural seclusion, has not been determined. He died at Potsdam in the same year (1758), which brought so many heavy casualties to his royal master, and his body was transferred to Zernikow. Michael Gabriel Fredersdorff died on January 12, 1758.
Re: Fredersdorf's marriage, the internet tells me otherwise it was 1753, not 1750, and Fontane couldn't look it up?
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-28 04:57 pm (UTC)Re: Fredersdorf's marriage, the internet tells me otherwise it was 1753, not 1750, and Fontane couldn't look it up?
The internet tells me the same thing, but the internet also tells me Katte's birthday is several days later than Fontane says, and Fontane gives documentary evidence he personally inspected, while the internet doesn't cite any source at all, so I'm suspending judgment. However, a letter from Fritz concerning the upcoming marriage is cited, so once I have the volume containing their correspondence, I will look and see if I can find it.
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-29 04:40 am (UTC)Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-29 04:44 am (UTC)Also, I refuse to write a book on Fritz until I can read both French and German, and that might take a while. :P
If we did convert these posts into a book, though, I think we could model it on 1066 and All That. 1740 and All That?
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-12-02 09:22 pm (UTC)Heh. There is that. (My French background is sufficiently strong that, as long as I don't have to pronounce anything, I could probably be pretty good at reading fairly quickly, but my German is nonexistent, and more to the point my history and everything else is nonexistent, although as a result of being in this fandom for... four months?? ... I feel like I now know more about it than the average person, at least :P Possibly more than some biographers :PP)
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-12-02 10:24 pm (UTC)I feel like I could get my French reading proficiency up to speed if I were sufficiently motivated and in better health, but German would take ages, and also they're just not high enough on my list that they're likely to happen, alas.
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-29 04:39 am (UTC)(and, okay, I am now a sucker whenever anyone says that anyone was in a happy marriage! Regardless of whether it actually makes sense to believe them!)
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-29 04:53 am (UTC)Also, if it was 1753, what else happened that year? Well, the big Voltaire implosion, and Algarotti scuttling away to Italy never to return. Once again, I feel like Fritz's mood and interpersonal relationships are having a chicken-egg effect here.
Re: Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-11-28 11:20 pm (UTC)Typo: "tomorrow," not "today." Today would be a little short notice.
Re: Sibling Correspondance - II
Date: 2019-11-19 05:47 am (UTC)Except for Voltaire. SHUT UP VOLTAIRE :P
Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-11 04:31 am (UTC)Gustav III: Ulrike’s oldest son. Future Verdi tenor. Married, but lacking an heir.
Fredrik Munck: Finnish sex machine with ambitions. Currently getting it on with, among others, the chambermaid of...
SophIa Magdalena: Gustav’s unhappy queen. Definitely not liked by...
Ulrike: Gustav’s mother, not very happy about being Queen Dowager and sidelined.
Charles: Ulrike’s second son. Suffers from chronic second son ombition.
In minor roles: Ulrike’s even younger kids.
If you think you’ve guessed where this is going, think again. Because Gustav is also bff with one Axel von Fersen, handsome Swedish count, in love with Marie Antoinette (whether or not they ever had sex is still disputed, but in future years, he’ll certainly go above and beyond trying to save her). I’m guessing Fersen told him that the French Royal couple also had problems getting it on and getting an heir for years, and solved this by getting third party counselling. Gustav must have misunderstood something, because what he decides to do is this:
G: So, Munck. I hear you’re really, really good at sex. Clearly the go to person to tell me and the Queen how to get an heir.
M: Sure, why not.
G: In a practical, hands- on fashion.
M: Say what?
G: I‘m talking manual instructions, my man. To both of us at the same time. You, me, her in the Royal Bedchamber.
M: I‘m so putting it in writing that this was your idea and leaving the document to the Swedish National Archive where it is to this day.
*nine months later, an heir is had*
Charles: Hi, Mom. I‘m just paying a visit with even younger bro Fredrick Adolf, ever so casually mentioning that other than you, every woman in Sweden is a slut and has lovers.
U: You do remind me of my brother Fritz at times. Surely not every woman? How about your sister-in-law?
C: Total slut, getting it on with the Finnish sex nmachine.
U: Say what? You mean that kid does not have Hohenzollern blood?
C: That kid which has been taking my place as Gustav‘s heir? Kinda doubt that. Rumor has it Gustav is getting it on with him, too.
U: Charles, stop kidding around. This is serious. If that kid is a bastard, it‘s your royal duty to make that known. Get the Finnish guy to confess!
C: Thanks, Mom, I knew you‘d see it like that. Munck, spill the dirty details and restore my place in the succession.
M: Gustav, remember how this was all your idea? Your brother is getting on my case, big time. I need royal protection!
G: Charles, what the hell do you think you‘re doing?
M: It was all Mom‘s idea. I‘m totally innocent.
G: WTF, Mom?
U: I raised you better. In my family, boys who can‘t get it on with their wives make their brothers and their brother‘s kids their heirs. Your uncle Fritz would NEVER have gone for the bastard option.
G: That kid is mine. You want to go to Pomerania into exile?
U: Is not. Make Charles your heir! To me, my other children! Remember, the slut‘s kid is barring you all from succession!
Ulrike‘s younger children: *side with her*
G: Okay, now it‘s war. Mom, if you don‘t sign a public statement that you withdraw your accusation against my wife and son, I‘m sending you home to Prussia. Without a retirement fund. You really want to find out whether Uncle Fritz will take you back? As for you, younger bros and sisters, I‘m still holding the purse string. No more income for you unless you co-sign Mom‘s statement. For good measure, I‘ll have six Swedish MPs co-sign it as well.
U: I curse you to suffer the fate of a Verdi tenor and die not too long after signing the statement.
M: That was surely the most troublesome threesome I ever had.
G: Time for a Masque Ball, anyone?
Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-12 09:48 pm (UTC)!!!!!
Welp, you're right. I definitely did not guess where that was going. GUSTAV. WHOA. (Also, kudos to Munck for putting it in writing, omg.)
(The really hilarious thing is that I started writing a Don Carlo fic last year with a premise a little like this
because Philip clearly needs help, and gave it up because it was just too crazy. Clearly I should resurrect it :P )Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-14 09:43 am (UTC)He even had the chambermaid (aka the one Munck had originally been involved with) and one of Sophia Magdalena's ladies in waiting testify that he, Munck, had been required to touch both the King and the Queen as part of the "instructions", that it had been Gustav's idea and he, Munck, was only servicing the royal couple as had been asked.
(Leopold to Joseph: Aren't you glad Mom didn't marry little Toni to Gustav instead of Louis?
Joseph: Not funny, Poldl.)
Something else the rabbit hole going revealed to me: historians apparently went into contortions re: Gustav's sexuality as much as they did about Fritz. Post-heir getting, this happened:
Gustav's sister-in-law Charlotte in a letter: Guess what, the King proposed to a young man in the park and was turned down.
Historians: Slander! Caused by family feud.
Queen Sophia Magdalena: *finds a naked hot page in Gustav's bed, though minus Gustav*
Traditional historians: Must have been lost for directions and passed out. Says something about the informality of the Gustavian court, clearly. I mean, Gustav did have female crushes as a young man, didn't he? And he's totally straight in the Verdi opera, too!
Also I learned that Ulrike, in true Hohenzollern insulting one's offspring in publich spirit, reacted thusly when first shown the portrait of her future daughter-in-law (at a formal presentation of said portrait to the crown prince, i.e. Gustav):
"Why Gustav, you seem to be in love with her already. She looks stupid."
Charles the scheming ambitious brother after the murder of Gustav (Charles: I had nothing to do with that! That could be proven, anyway) became regent for little Gustav IV Adolf (born nine months after successful "instruction" by Munck); then, when his nephew ascended to the throne upon reaching his majority, conspired with the nobility against him, with the net result being that Gustav IV Adolf was forced to abdicate. Charles then finally became King in his own right, but alas for him...
Napoleon: It's a new age, what can I say.
Charles: *has stroke*
Swedish Parliament: We have a King severely disabled by a stroke and no surviving son. Also we have the Russians on one border and continental Europe ruled by Napoleon on the other. How about the King is made to adopt one of Napoleon's marshals as his heir?
Gustav IV Adolf *in exile*: So, I'm not good enough because I'm possibly the son of a Finnish sex machine, but a French commoner who has "death to kings" tattood on his arm is?
Charles (or rather, the parliament for him): Please greet our new crown prince and future king, Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, aka Karl Johan of Sweden!
Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-15 05:21 pm (UTC)I had no idea that Scandinavia was such a hotbed of... gossipy sensationalism... Although at least from the movie synopsis, it seems to be the case that a large part of the problem was that Struensee went after power, which doesn't seem to have been so much the case here?
He even had the chambermaid (aka the one Munck had originally been involved with) and one of Sophia Magdalena's ladies in waiting testify that he, Munck, had been required to touch both the King and the Queen as part of the "instructions", that it had been Gustav's idea and he, Munck, was only servicing the royal couple as had been asked.
!!This is amazing.
(Leopold to Joseph: Aren't you glad Mom didn't marry little Toni to Gustav instead of Louis?
Joseph: Not funny, Poldl.)
Well... I dunno... at least she would have gotten hands-on tutorials? And it seems like it would be less embarrassing to get instructions from well-known sex machine than from one's older brother, but maybe this is me having twenty-first century squicks :D
Queen Sophia Magdalena: *finds a naked hot page in Gustav's bed, though minus Gustav*
Traditional historians: Must have been lost for directions and passed out.
lol forever. Woooooow. That is some major major contortions there, that is hilarious.
And he's totally straight in the Verdi opera, too!
HAHAHAHA
Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-17 07:01 pm (UTC)Well, Munck didn't do badly out of it. To quote wiki: He was appointed Master of the Horse (Riksstallmästare), knight and governor of the Royal Order of the Seraphim. He was created Baron (Friherre) Munck af Fulkila on 27 December 1778 (introduced in registry of the nobility in 1788, under nr 309), and finally Count Greve Munck af Fulkila on 4 July 1788 (introduced 16 May 1789 under nr 103). In 1787, Sophia Magdalena deposited a sum of 50.000 riksdaler in an account for Munck, which was generally rumoured to be a "farewell gift".
But still, Struensee became the de facto ruler of Denmark for a while, and his reforms were truly earth shattering for the time:
- abolition of torture
abolition of unfree labor (corvée)
abolition of the censorship of the press
abolition of the practice of preferring nobles for state offices
abolition of noble privileges
abolition of "undeserved" revenues for nobles
abolition of the etiquette rules at the Royal Court
abolition of the Royal Court's aristocracy
abolition of state funding of unproductive manufacturers
abolition of several holidays
introduction of a tax on gambling and luxury horses to fund nursing of foundlings
ban of slave trade in the Danish colonies
rewarding only actual achievements with feudal titles and decorations
criminalization and punishment of bribery
re-organization of the judicial institutions to minimize corruption
introduction of state-owned grain storages to balance out the grain price
assignment of farmland to peasants
re-organization and reduction of the army
university reforms
reform of the state-owned medical institutions
...and then he died a gruesome death for "lese majeste and usurpation of the royal authority". To quote wiki again: First, Struensee's right hand was cut off; next, after two failed attempts, his head was severed, stuck on a pole and presented to 30,000 bystanders; then, after disembowelment, his remains were quartered.
The King himself considered Struensee a great man, even after his death. Written in German on a drawing the king made in 1775, three years after Struensee’s execution, was the following: "Ich hätte gern beide gerettet" ("I would have liked to have saved them both").
BTW, in case you're wondering: a) German because Struensee was German (and the Queen sort of was, being a Hannover and George III's sister), b) normally one would wonder why he didn't save them then, being King, but between being mentally ill and the enraged nobility taking over, Christian does have an excuse. Anyway, with all this in mind as the most recent precedent, is it a surprise Munck was careful?
Re: husband for Marie Antoinette, presumably in this particular matter, she'd prefered the Swedish option, too, but Gustav was a lousy husband in general (what with the favorites and no particular interest in his wife beyond the heir getting), whereas Louis might have been terrible in bed, not to mention phlegmatic in general, but he was the first French King since centuries not to take a mistress or a non-sexual favourite, and emotionally actually was devoted to his wife. Also, note that Gustav's method resulted in immediate scandal, whereas (most) people didn't know about why it took seven years for MA to get pregnant until Joseph's letters in this regard were finally published in the 20th century. I mean, there was gossip and theories involving the fact that post-Joseph's visit, pregnancy finally ensued, obviously, but just what the problem had been was hotly debated.
(One theory favored by future revolutionaries was that MA was an evil nymphomaniac and hence not able to get pregnant, which was completely untrue but was eagerly believed, and when the children finally did come, of course their paternity got disputed.)
Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-18 01:08 pm (UTC)Speaking of disputes about her children, here's a story.
During the Revolution, they were imprisoned along with their parents. Then they were separated from their parents on the grounds that Louis and MA were unfit parents--Louis had to testify to the extremely improbable charge of being sexually molested by MA, just as an excuse for his jailers to separate them. Louis, as the heir to the now defunct crown, was given to some appropriately low-ranked member of society for a good revolutionary upbringing in prison. Then Louis and MA were killed, and the kids continued to be kept very secluded in prison. Louis XVII was 7 years old when this happened.
The accounts of young Louis's treatment by later royalist sources (including his sister, who was separated from him much of the time and is not a reliable eyewitness), describe abuse that far surpasses anything Fritz ever went through. I kind of have to hope accounts have been greatly exaggerated by propaganda. Then he died of illness in prison at age 10.
Or did he? Naturally, people turned up in later years claiming to be him, claiming that he was smuggled out. The strongest piece of evidence was an eyewitness who saw Louis XVII in prison (his doctor, I think?) and said that the boy refused to talk and showed little signs of understanding what was said to him, or any signs of being the same boy as the dauphin. Conspiracy theories ensued, including one where his protectors smuggled him out and substituted an uneducated deaf mute child, who conveniently couldn't write or say anything that might reveal the deception. Then the incredibly sickly deaf mute died, while the real Louis was living in exile.
Today, in the 21st century, there are still people claiming to be descended from one of the 19th century pretenders. (There are still at least two people living today claiming to be descended from Charles Edward Stuart/Bonnie Prince Charlie. Predictably, one who wants to be recognized as king and probably isn't descended, and one who wants nothing to do with royalty and probably is.)
Well, we can argue about textual evidence and probabilities all day and not get anywhere. A DNA test would be awesome! But burying a 10-year old deposed monarch in royal style was not a priority of the French revolutionaries (I say this ironically--they went to a great deal of trouble to make sure it didn't happen). So while we think we might know where he's buried, it's with very low confidence, and a test of a body found there wouldn't prove anything.
But, before he was buried, his heart was removed by a royalist sympathizer and stored in a container. (Preserving and displaying the hearts of monarchs separately was a long-standing tradition.) It passed through many hands, not always recognized for what it was, and disappeared completely at one point and was thought lost forever.
Meanwhile, in the mid 20th century, one family was still trying to prove their claim to the throne via the pretender. (Omg, guys, calm down.) In the 1990s, trying to get them to shut up, someone did a DNA test of the hair and arm bone of that guy (now long dead, of course), hair in some lockets belonging to Maria Theresia, which were thought to be locks of hair of her children, hair thought to belong to Marie Antoinette, and hair from living relatives of MA. They decided he *probably* wasn't Louis XVII, but it was hard to disprove with confidence, because the DNA was so degraded and contaminated because of the passage of time (pretenders also don't get the most pristine burials).
Then, circa 2000, a historian contacted the DNA guy and said, "Hey, I spent my life trying to track down Louis XVII's heart, and I know where to find it!"
Believe it or not, the heart had actually made it, through a very roundabout route, to Saint-Denis. For those of you just joining (or maybe you know this from historical fiction), that's where all the French monarchs were buried. The heart wasn't prominently displayed, nobody knew it was there any more, but there it was, hidden on a bottom shelf behind a crucifix in a glass container.
DNA guy got permission to cut off a small piece for the test, and boom! Perfect match. What we have here is the heart of the Dauphin, meaning the kid who couldn't talk to the doctor but seemed to appreciate the guy being nice to him, was the son of Louis and MA, was the same kid who died at age 10.
Before the DNA test, there was a ceremony to re-inter the remainder of the heart. The presiding priest said, "I do not know whose heart this is, but it is certainly symbolic of children anywhere in the world who have suffered. This represents the suffering of all little children caught up in war and revolution."
Which is very true--even if nine-tenths of what we hear about the sufferings of Louis XVII was propaganda, what we know for certain would be enough to traumatize any young child into not talking.
Of course, the descendants from the pretender are still contesting the results of the test, but they have even fewer people taking them seriously these days.
Older sister Marie-Thérèse, by the way, did not die in prison, and was the only one of MA and Louis's children to make it to adulthood. She spent her life in and out of exile, in sync with the fluctuations between monarchical and republican dominance in France. Wikipedia tells me there was also a dispute about whether a certain shadowy figure known as the "Dark Countess", who never spoke in public, might actually have been Marie-Thérèse. The theory is that MT was too traumatized to live a normal life and had traded places with another woman, allowing her to assume her identity, but DNA tests a few years ago proved that the Dark Countess was not the daughter of Marie Antoinette either. We still don't know who she was, but definitely not Marie-Thérèse. Cool name, though!
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-19 05:54 am (UTC)That is amaaaaazing historical forensics (or detective work, or whatever, what do yo ueven call that??) I love it when historical puzzles are solved by SCIENCE.
But also: :(((((((((
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-19 08:30 am (UTC)But yes, I knew the sad story of the children. The moment where Hèbert brings up the sexual molestation/incest charge at MA's trial, twice, is one of the most famous and infamous at the same time, because of how she defies it. The Moniteur as well as other papers reported on the trial in great detail, so we don't have to rely on people's memories. The first time Hèbert raises the charge, she ignores him and replies to the other accusations. Then:
A jury member: »Citizen President, I ask you to point out to the accused that she has not yet replied to the facts Citizen Hèbert mentioned regarding the events between her and her son."
The President asked the relevant question.
Accused: "If I had not replied, it was because nature revolts against such an accusation made to a mother." Here the accused seemed to be upset in the highest degree. "I call on all mothers who are present in this room."
This caused a mighty commotion among female members of the audience. The President hastily proceeded to the next question.
Bear in mind MA was well and truly hated. She was basically blamed for everything that had gone wrong in France for the last century, and Hèbert, who'd made the accusation, had written pornographic calumnies about her in his journal "Père Duchesne" for years; he hadn't been the only one. There wasn't a depravity she hadn't been accused of at this point, and most were believed by the population at large. Those women had come to her trial to gloat at her downfall, not to support her. And yet.
Stefan Zweig in his MA biography from the 1930s which is titled "Story of an avarage character" points out to the great and tragic paradox of her life; that she - who if the revolution had not happened would have simply been an avarage Ancien Regime princess, no more or less extravagant than the lot of them, neither particularly smart nor stupid, in the last few years of it from 1789 onwards turned into displaying extraordinary strength and spirit. The same woman who couldn't go through a briefing from Mercy (the Austrian ambassador) without a yawning and back in Vienna had been bored by language lessons, who didn't take any of Joseph's admonishments in that memo letter he left her after leaving France seriously, learnt a complicated cyphre system so she could correspond with supporters while under increasing close watch; she, not poor Louis her husband, was the one who negotiated, corresponded etc. with everyone. She showed great courage from the moment Versailles was stormed and the people yelled for her to get out on the balcony alone ("no children, no children", because it was assumed she'd bring them to soften everyone's hearts) onwards, and in her final year of life, when she was subjected to non stop verbal abuse and wasn't even allowed to have a cell without two (male) guards present all the time, she didn't crumble once, and even was able to comfort her sister-in-law Elisabeth who'd been locked up with her.
"When will you grow into your own" (the sentence has also been translated as "when will you become yourself?" her exasparated mother MT had once written to her, and one of the many tragedies of MA's life was hat she did not become this final self even the revolutionaries were forced to have grudging respect for until it was too late.
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-21 05:11 pm (UTC)But yay, this bio is available in English! Not at my library, alas, but my family has been wondering what to get me for Christmas, and I've just put it on my wishlist :D
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-22 12:48 pm (UTC)(His day ended in exile, in Brazil during WWII, where he committed suicide, shortly after finishing his memoirs of his youth in pre-WWI Vienna, Die Welt von Gestern, "The World of Yesterday".)
My own first Zweig work was his Joseph Fouché biography, a great example of how you can write the biography of someone you despise and yet make it absolutely fascinating. Most of the other people he wrote about he liked, including MA,but Fouché, he was both revolted and fascinated by, and it shows.
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-25 08:31 pm (UTC)Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-22 05:06 pm (UTC)Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-25 08:35 pm (UTC)My library doesn't have it in text, though it does have it in videocassette?? which is really weird to me. (This is of course not at all helpful to me, as I don't have a VHS player and even if I did, I have all this stuff queued up to watch!)
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-25 08:39 pm (UTC)Much to my delight, yesterday I also accidentally stumbled across volume 2 of Catt's memoirs online, which I *had not* been able to find despite extensive looking. Funnily enough, I was trying to track down an 18th century place name for somewhere in Poland, and Catt came up. So I have downloaded that and have it on my to-read list, when I can read things again, ugh. (It's kind of horrible to have gone from "can't read physical books" to "can't read books" but at least I'm hopeful that has an easier fix.)
V. H. S???? Wow. Okay, library!
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-29 03:42 am (UTC)Oooooh, Catt's memoirs! I hope you can read it soon too :(
Re: Marie Antoinette's children
Date: 2019-11-29 03:46 am (UTC)Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-19 05:52 am (UTC)Heh, I suppose there would be scandal at that, given that Munck was careful to make public his role in all of this :) Whereas Joseph wasn't going to.... (I'm still amazed, from a prudish 21stC viewpoint, that he wrote a letter about it!)
MA was an evil nymphomaniac and hence not able to get pregnant
I... don't... think sex and pregnancy work the way you think they do, revolutionaries....
Austrian siblings
Date: 2019-11-19 07:53 am (UTC)Well, to his brother, who was going to keep it confidential. He probably needed to vent, since going by reports like the Duc de Croy's he was on his best behavior in public and diplomatic and nice all the time.
Speaking of Joseph, Leopold and Marie Antoinette, the nineteenth century noble who first published both the MT-MA correspondance(censored, not just for sex; MA and MT frankly discuss stuff like having one's period, which was a no go for the 19th century readership) and as a follow up the correspondance between MA and both her imperial brothers, has this to say in his introduction preface:
(Joseph) was despite or because of the large age difference between him and his youngest sister the brother closest to her. It isn‘t a rare situation for young girls to attach themselves to their older brothers with a warmth of feeling which can only be explained by an unique mingling of sisterly love and childish veneration. This emotion grows especially vivid if the father isn‘t alive anymore, and subsequently the oldest brother takes his place as the head of the family. From Antoinette‘s tenth year onwards, this was the case with Joseph. As the oldest male family member and his father‘s successor on the imperial throne, as co-ruler with their mother and finally through his unusual mental superiority the fourteen years older brother was bound to impress his youngest sister, all the more so because his personal amiability, his vivid concern for her and his warm interest in her fate won her complete love and loyalty. She gave him a position in her life near her mothers. Consequently, he had the right not to hold back with his scolding as well if his youngest sister‘s behavior seemed to him to deserve it. This can be seen from her letters to Rosenberg and the confessions they contain.
His concern for Marie Antoinette is even more recognizable in the warnings he left her in written form upon departing Versailles. As serious and terse as some of his admonishments sounded, Marie Antoinette didn‘t let any touchiness influence her conviction that these admonishments sprang from the purest well of fraternal love. Until the end of his days, she showed this brother she loved as much as she venerated him a consistent and unshakeable loyalty.
Much less affectionate was the relationship that existed between the Queen of France and her brother Leopold. The very circumstance that Antoinette was only ten years old when Leopold succeeded his father in governing Tuscany and thus left Vienna, and that she never saw him agan had to influence how it developed. Moreover, she doesn‘t appear to have corresponded with him at all until the moment when he succeeded in the government of the Empire after Joseph‘s death. Leopold's remark that while he had a sister, Austria did not and thus could not be expected to interfere in France could not have encouraged her. Still, it cannot be said that Leopold was lacking sympathy for her fate entirely, which at the very moment when she was starting her correspondance with him was taking its fatal turn. HIs first letter with which he informs her of Joseph‘s death and the letters he writes to her when receiving the unfortunately wrong news that the royal family‘s escape from France bear witness to this.
Re: Austrian siblings
Date: 2019-11-21 05:06 pm (UTC)Awwww, that is a really sweet note about Joseph and MA. (And I don't disagree with it.)
Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden
Date: 2019-11-18 05:24 pm (UTC)Alternatively, "Truth is always strange, stranger than fiction." --Lord Byron, who would know.
Please tell me you know all the good Byron anecdotes,
Byron
Date: 2019-11-18 05:43 pm (UTC)I still hope to be able to see you next Spring, perhaps you & one or two of the children could be spared some time next year for a little tour here or in France with me of a month or two. I think I could make it pleasing to you, & it should be no expense to L. or to yourself. Pray think of this hint. You have no idea how very beautiful great part of this country is—and women and children traverse it with ease and expedition. I would return from any distance at any time to see you, and come to England for you; and when you consider the chances against our—but I won’t relapse into the dismals and anticipate long absences——
The great obstacle would be that you are so admirably yoked—and necessary as a housekeeper—and a letter writer—& a place-hunter to that very helpless gentleman your Cousin, that I suppose the usual self-love of an elderly person would interfere between you & any scheme of recreation or relaxation, for however short a period.
What a fool was I to marry—and you not very wise—my dear—we might have lived so single and so happy—as old maids and bachelors; I shall never find any one like you—nor you (vain as it may seem) like me. We are just formed to pass our lives together, and therefore—we—at least—I—am by a crowd of circumstances removed from the only being who could ever have loved me, or whom I can unmixedly feel attached to.
Had you been a Nun—and I a Monk—that we might have talked through a grate instead of across the sea—no matter—my voice and my heart are
ever thine—
Re: Byron
Date: 2019-11-19 06:23 am (UTC)Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-15 10:24 am (UTC)But before I start rereading comments, I'm going to share a couple things with you that I put together in the last day or two. One I'll do in the Algarotti thread, and the other here.
So remember when
Well, it occurred to me that you could put together a pretty good approximation from his correspondence. It's obviously going to be very light on the early years, especially pre-1730. You'd have to do that manually. But after 1740, we have reams and reams of correspondence for him, and it all comes with locations.
So I, uh, wrote some code. Like I do.
Then it turned out that code is easy, data wrangling is hard. (This is the mantra of data scientists everywhere.) In our case, data wrangling = converting the 18th century German names of cities into 21st century German, Polish, and Czech names with standardized spellings, and getting the latitude and longitude manually for the really small and obscure ones. Ahahahaaaa.
So I went with his personal correspondence for my first stab at this project. It gives you much less granularity than the political correspondence, but a much smaller and therefore more manageable data set, and it also gives you some of the 1730-1740 period.
I ended up manually googling 150 names that I couldn't automatically match to any modern place names. Some of them were pretty damn hard to track down. In a few cases, I had to go read the letter in question to figure out where the fuck he was, or his memoirs. Fortunately, in the one case where I absolutely could not find a modern equivalent even after reading the letter and would have been stumped, he conveniently described his location in the letter as "near this city, on this river, and just on the opposite side of this other river from this other city," which meant I could get fairly precise coordinates even without being able to match up names. Thanks, Fritz! His memoirs were actually pretty useful too in giving geographical descriptions. But you can see why I used the personal correspondence.
That got me a rough map of his travels 1730-1786. Or at least a data set that allows me to generate rough maps. Attempting to generate one single map crashed my laptop.
Then I picked out one small period and went through it by hand and attempted to clean up the data as best I could. (Some guesses have been made, but the final result doesn't have him jumping to the other side of Germany and back overnight, which is how I'm judging "good enough".) Now it looks like an actual map.
But he moved around and backtracked so much, that it would be unreadable as a static map with overlapping names and dates. So I made it into a gif.
And without further ado, behold the First Silesian War! (You'll need to click on the gif and zoom in to make out the text. Depending on your connection, the transitions may be a little jerky if you view it in the cloud, but when I downloaded it to my computer, it was much better quality. It's in the same folder as the screenshots, so you should be able to view it, but let me know if not.)
If we wanted to tackle this project properly, this would be my todo list:
1) Clean up the entire data set, 1730-1786.
2) Make the map all pretty with colors and better titles and stuff.
3) Use the political correspondence, omg.
4) Maybe see if it would be possible to make static maps covering short time frames that aren't unreadably cluttered?
What I should do is the initial number crunching on the political correspondence just to see exactly how much work it would be to make that data set usable. Would it be a couple hundred place names that needed to be manually wrangled (doable), or a couple thousand (lol no)?
Oh, btw, you know the 46 volumes of political correspondence? They stop in March 1782! I don't know what happened to the last 4.5 years. Maybe everyone who was compiling his correspondence died of old age and forgot to name literary executors, haha.
But anyway, enjoy watching Fritz invade Silesia and Bohemia in the meantime! ("Pragmatic Sanction? What Pragmatic Sanction? Anti-Machiavel? What Anti-Machiavel? *shifty eyes* Posterity is going to make MAPS commemorating this!")
Also: "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." I certainly learned a lot about Germany, Poland, and the Czech Republic from this exercise. To the point where I'm starting to have intuitions about what's been misgeocoded just from proximity to surprisingly obscure villages and rivers. :P
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-15 05:47 pm (UTC)Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-17 03:15 pm (UTC)- 1740-1745
- 1745-1756
- 1756-1763
- 1763-1786
- And the granddaddy of all gifs: 1740-1786
It was easier than I thought, and apparently researching coordinates for 18th century place names is a suitably mindless and time-consuming pastime on 3 hours of sleep and insomnia.
I got two surprises out of the finished product, one cool and one sad.
Cool: I keep reading about the autumn military maneuvers Fritz held in Silesia, and you can watch them happen on this map! What you can't see on the map is that he kept going every year until his death, because in 1785 he famously insisted on sitting on his horse in the pouring rain for 6 hours reviewing the troops, and then got so sick he couldn't get out of bed the next day. That was the beginning of the one-year decline toward August 17, 1786.
Sad: The 1780s autumn maneuvers, aka Sir-Not-Appearing-In-This-Map. That's because the map turned out to be an inadvertently very poignant illustration of his emotional isolation. You may notice the itinerary gets less and less granular at the end, as his correspondents die off one by one. There's a sharp drop-off in volume after Voltaire goes in 1778 and Maria Antonia in 1780. :(
Which, of course, makes me even more annoyed that the transcription of his political correspondence cuts off in March 1782. I'm just not going to be able to put together a decent map after that date. Ditto before 1740, the data's just too sparse.
But what I've got so far is still cool! As approximations go, I'm pretty stoked about what I've put together. And proud, I have to admit.
Do you think Old Fritz would be proud?For my next trick, I'm planning to see how much work would be involved in wrangling the more granular data from his political correspondence, and then making a decision whether to proceed. :D
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-19 05:18 am (UTC)I wouldn't have noticed had you not mentioned it, but because you did mention it I could see how much faster the dates advanced as they got later in his life :(
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-19 06:49 am (UTC)Yeah, the later years are :(
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-21 05:00 pm (UTC)I feel like you should publish this somewhere :P
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-21 05:16 pm (UTC)Me too! But I have no idea where.
Anyway, let's wait and see if I sustain my momentum long enough to get through the political correspondence, and what the resulting product looks like.
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-25 03:30 am (UTC)Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-17 03:25 pm (UTC)Anyway, on one occasion, almost the entire first page of hits was works by or about Fritz, and the first was Carlyle. The blurb Google showed me reads: "Friedrich now has nothing for it but to try if he cannot possibly get hold of Kunzendorf (readers may look in their Map)."
Yes, if only it were still named that, Carlyle! I laughed pretty hard. It reminded me of a touristy t-shirt I got in Bratislava that read, "Where the fuck is Bratislava?"
Where the fuck is Kunzendorf?
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-20 04:31 pm (UTC)invadedwent.It started when I couldn't find *any* place names when googling "Pischeli Czech Republic". But I remembered that the last time I couldn't find something, it ended up being in Prague. So I tried "Pischeli Prague", and ended up with an 1865 "Memorial of the Projected Railway from Vienna" that listed a bunch of stops on the various projected lines, using the old German names for villages and towns.
On the line that included "Pischeli", I recognized a bunch of names that I had just found the Czech names for (sweeeet). So I plugged in a few into Google maps, and sure enough, they formed a nice projected train line. Then I looked at the stop immediately before and immediately after Pischeli, zoomed in on the map, and knowing that it was somewhere between Benešov and Říčany, spotted "Pyšely" within a few seconds. Victory!
You have to get creative on this scavenger hunt. :D
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-17 08:06 pm (UTC)ETA: Also, I'm slain by the fact you managed to come up with all the current Czech and Polish names to all the places.
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-18 08:16 am (UTC)Some of us in this fandom make contributions via knowledge of German and French, some of us manage to make contributions via knowledge of bash and R. ;)
Also, I'm slain by the fact you managed to come up with all the current Czech and Polish names to all the places.
Haha, it was definitely the most time-consuming part, but I had to! It was the only way to get latitudes and longitudes so I could plot the locations on the map. Like I said, a lot of the original place names seem to exist in Frederick the Great-related sources and nothing else, according to Teh Googlez.
Also, just checking (since you replied to the first comment) that you saw the revised version(s), not just the far inferior black-and-white first draft?
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-18 08:25 am (UTC)Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-18 08:29 am (UTC)1740, though--unfortunately--not 1730. I do have the data for 1730-1740 and am willing to generate the map if anyone is interested (it'll only take a few minutes), but it's so incredibly sparse that I wanted to make a better quality 1740-1786 map to stand alone. If anyone wanted to make a real map before 1740, they'd have to read through sources and gather the data themselves; there's just not enough extant correspondence to do it programmatically. Before 1730 is even worse.
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-30 03:26 am (UTC)I have to go to bed now, but I'm planning to get it uploaded this weekend, and then I'll pass on the link.
:-DDDDDD
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-11-30 10:07 pm (UTC)I'm super stoked about this. :D
Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-12-01 09:18 am (UTC)Re: Fritz chronological maps, or a labor of love
Date: 2019-12-02 09:26 pm (UTC)Passive aggressive generals
Date: 2019-11-16 08:28 am (UTC)"[Seydlitz] was particular in procuring good and various wines, and was annoyed if a guest sought to conceal a preference for any particular kind of wine, out of modesty. And this was a repugnance which General von Natzmer* loved to excite; for when he came to Trebnitz to inspect the squadron, and sat at the major's table, he invariably asked for the ordinary French wine, to show that he did not live well himself, and that he despised luxury. The haughty host, however, to confront the unwelcome lesson with the offence which the general affected to reprehend, caused the finest and most costly wines to be served to himself and his other guests."
Way to go, guys! Such mature, very officer, wow. :P
Meanwhile, as you may recall, Fritz served only the cheapest wine when dining with his men. If you wanted something better, you brought it yourself. All of which he thought was hilarious. "Because if there's one thing I learned from Dad, it's--okay, verbally abusing people. But if there's two things I learned from Dad, it's verbally abusing people and saving money. :DD"
* Different Natzmer from the one who converted FW to Pietism and gave Katte three hours to escape before reluctantly being forced to arrest him.
Re: Passive aggressive generals
Date: 2019-11-19 05:02 am (UTC)Re: Passive aggressive generals
Date: 2019-11-19 06:21 am (UTC)Escape attempt
Date: 2019-11-18 10:53 am (UTC)Is it just my German being too rudimentary here, or do they sound as happy about the child abuse continuing so Prussia could have a warmongering general as I think they do? (I dug up some pictures of the inside of the museum, and they seem extremely battle-recreation-focused, lending credence to my suspicion.)
Re: Escape attempt
Date: 2019-11-18 10:05 pm (UTC)"Here during his flight on 4/5 August Frederick the Great got preserved for the fatherland" does sound like whoever wrote the inscription was glad that Fritz didn't escape, no doubt. You might take comfort in the fact that anyone supporting that idea is undoubtedly miffed there is no more Prussia and has not been for a hundred years. (It continued as a province post WWI but not as a Kingdom, and post WWII it was dissolved entirely.)
On that note, the latest from Current Hohenzollern Boss vs German States: Battle of the historians.
To recapitulate: Prinz of Hohenzollern: We want money, paintings and castles. You owe us for Fritz. And other glorious contributions my family made to German history.
Representatives of current day Brandenburg: Like Willy and WWI, you mean? No dice.
Current embodiment of Hohenzollern nuttery: But! There's this law from 1991 saying those nobles who got disowned by the Sowjets when the GDR got founded get their stuff back, or at least compensation.
State representatives: That law has an exception clause: "Unless said nobles supported the Nazis in significant ways." You want to talk Son of Willy chumming around with Hitler, your highness?
Prince: Son of Willy was misunderstood, AND I WILL HIRE THE HISTORIANS TO PROVE IT.
State guys: Bring it on!
And now the conclusion: Historians hired by current day Brandenburg: Stephan Malinowski and Peter Brandt.
Historians hired by Willy's great grandson: Christopher Clark and Wolfgang Pyta.
Christopher Clark: Eh, Son of Willy was an insignificant figure. He didn't matter to anyone.
Wolfgang Pyta: Son of Willy was a secret resistance fighter! He hung out with someone who knew Stauffenberg!
Peter Brandt and Stephan Malinowski: Son of Willy and Willy, for that matter, were deluded enough to believe Hitler would reintroduce the monarchy and were totally willing to play along to that end. Now let's talk about why the hell the Weimar Republic was so lenient to the German nobility in the first place that such a lot of them were still in positions of influence come the Third Reich!
Re: Escape attempt
Date: 2019-11-19 06:15 am (UTC)That is *exactly* what I thought! Thank you for confirming. I note that *somebody* has decided to leave this plaque up for the last 75 years.
And thanks for the latest installment of Hohenzollern nonsense!
Re: Escape attempt
Date: 2019-11-19 06:16 am (UTC)More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-20 07:59 am (UTC)The AW biography: confirms Wilhelm or Guillaume was the name he actually used, with his younger brothers calling him Guille, does its source notes and tells its tragic story well, with the author unabashedly biased for her subject but trying to check it as in the question how far or little Fritz' behavior towards AW - when he basically wooed this younger brother with letters, even once wrote him a poem of praise - during the ten years between 1730 and 1740 was utterly calculating or not. It is, she admits, almost impossible not to read it with hindsight, but it's entirely possible Fritz was just as much motivated by affective needs - missing Wilhelmine and wanting to have an ally among the remaining in Berln siblings again - and survival technique (an ally who can report on their father's moods and within limits affect them); Zuibura does devote a powerful chapter on just how much Fritz was abused to demonstrate where he came from. Maybe he also was sincere in offering his older brother guidance re: education, not least because AW did need it; FW, who'd been delighted this second son prefered the toy soldiers to the books, had allowed his teacher to give him a great leash when it came to history, geography, writing etc, with the result that AW was on a level with the younger Heinrich (who was more like Fritz and Wilhelmine as a passionate learner). The poem of praise is also a gentle instruction on why books are cool and teen AW should read more of them on his own.
Young AW responded eagerly (and on that occasion btw tried to write a poem of his own to his older brother back). Unfortunately, all of this meant he really had no idea and post 1740 Fritz caught him entirely unawares. (BTW, the turnaround didn't happen immediately after ascension; for example, Fritz took AW with him and Algarotti when making that trip across the French border via Bayreuth, which is why we know - from AW's letters - one detail Fritz left out in his description to Voltaire about said trip, i.e. after his incognito was blown by a Prussian deserter, the lot of them ignominously spent the rest of the night under arrest (passport forgery!) until the local commandant cleared things up and send them back. (Young AW still thought this was a jolly adventure, though, and that his older brother was the coolest at this point.)
As Ziebura details, the reason why FW prefered this kid was a chicken/egg thing going beyond "that one thinks soldiers are cool" - because young Wilhelm was a loved child, he wasn't afraid of his father and very affectionate towards him, because he never had to hide what he thought, he was honest (whereas FW was convinced Fritz and Wilhelmine were lying to him all the time, which of course they did because they were terrified), because he was the golden child, he was generous and kind towards all his siblings and eager to help them whenever they asked, which in turn made him popular with the rest of the family as well. And Heinrich, who shared rooms with AW from the time he was four, really loved him above and beyond, same intensity as the Fritz/Wilhelmine relationship. You can see where all this is going.
Starting with the first Silesian War, Wilhelm has a wake up call in that him being the new crown prince does not mean Fritz is going to share foreign policy or any other plans with him - not then, not ever. And once Fritz is back, the bossing around starts in earnest. While AW does have the (het) sex life with mistresses Fritz scorns in princes anyway, he's by no means without the thing FW successfully drummed into all his children - the sense of duty and serving as the main purpose of a Prussian royal. He writes lengthy memoranda about improvements he'd make if he was King, for example. (Trivia: these, btw, include giving the Queen a larger budget than the Queen Mother - Fritz did the reverse - though AW was at best indifferent to his wife as well. But he did think the reigning Queen deserved to have the bigger household. Given an early anecdote is how SD threatened to have little AW whipped by rod if he didn't ask his father for a deserter's life - one of the long fellows who'd run away - , which he then successfully did, I'd venture Wilhelm might also have been less of a fan of his mother.) He also indulged in a one year long strategy game with Heinrich between the Silesian Wars and the 7 Years War. They correctly assumed yet another war would happen, though along with Fritz and most others, they did NOT see the Austria/France alliance coming, so their imaginary war was between a Prussia allied to France and an Austria allied to England. Also tellingly, Heinrich roleplayed Fritz while AW took the role of Field Marshal Gessler in this scenario. ("Le Marechal Gessler" was also much later a pseudonym Heinrich chose for a few Fritz critiques.) They did correctly predict - or Heinrich-playing-Fritz did - that he'd kick things off by invading Saxony.
Ziebura is definitely of the "Fritz was scapegoating AW for mistakes that were partially his" school when it came to the big disaster, and attaches in full an assessment of von Schmettau about Wilhelm's decision to withdraw. She also quotes at length from Amalie's report on AW's death lengthy and painful death. Amalie was present through most of it, and said report, in great detail, tearstained and with ink blots, is adressed to Fritz. It doesn't include a direct accusation, but Ziebura thinks the very fact she writes this detailed has a "this is your fault, now at least learn what it was like" subtext.
Heinrich, of course, did not need subtext. He also unequivaably did not blame a medical reason for AW's demise. He was fine with main text, writing to brother Ferdinand (the three youngest brothers were called "the divine trio" in Berlin, I learned) on June 20th: "Since eight days, I know of the fate of our unhappy brother, and since this time, I am suffering. I am trying to have patience, but I shall never forgeet my beloved broother, or the terrible reason for his death." And in the next letterer, he's even more explicit: "Our misfortune is terrible, but I admire your attitude. You are completely right in ascribing our beloved brother's deaath to grief. (..) This misfortune hails from the one who makes his entire country miserable annd drowns Europe in blood."
(Now tell us how you really feel about your older brother, Heinrich.)
Surprise factoid: the one person Fritz was able to write a non-infuriating condolence letter to was AW's neglected wife. Also, his promise in said letter to be a father to her kids does not inspire Ziebura to a sarcastic comment re: FW2 but lets her point out AW's daughter Wilhelmine did say about Fritz in her memoirs "He was for me a second father, and his affectionate behavior towards me never changed".
On to the "Fritz and Heinrich" double portrait/essay/book: that one contains among many other things excerpts from their correspondance, including from Heinrich's reply to Fritz' infamous condolence letter: In the terrible shock the death of my brother has caused, it would have been impossible fo rme to write to you about a subject which to me is incredibly painful if it hadn't pleased you to write the letter adressed to me. The feelings which move me right now are more powerful than reason. I keep seeing the image of the brother whom I loved so tenderly, his last hours, his death. Of all the sad changes and misfortunes life can offer and from which I have not been always spared, this is the most cruel and most terrible that could have struck.
Fritz writes back, trying again. Heinrich is not moved. I have sighed enough about the misunderstanding between you and my brother. Now you keep reawakening the memory and encrease my pain. Only the respect I owe you and my pain keep me silent, and I am not allowed to reply.
Just in case this isn't enough of an 18th century style "Fuck you, Fritz" (with the obelisk awaiting), von Krockow also quotes the letter about Heinrich's visit to Wilhelmine, which I had only seen paraphrased as "he saw she was dying, and so he didn't tell her about AW" in the Wilhelmine biography. In the actual text excerpt, well....
My Bayreuth sister has been close to death. She cannot write to you. I am afraid that she will not recover from this illness. She doesn't know about my brother's death yet, for one is justly concerned here that telling her about this news would destroy even the glimmer of hope for her survival.
In other words: Fritz, you know, the sibling YOU love? You've killed her along with the one I loved best as well. Think about that while you're in the field. Think long and hard.
(Heinrich: has learned the Fritzian lesson of how to deliver words that truly hurt and go to the heart with frightening efficiency.)
(And it occured to me that the nightmare Fritz told Henri de Catt about, of Wilhelmine (of all the people) accusing him not to love their father enough, might actually be a classic case of transference even more than I thought, with FW standing in for AW as well.)
Von Krockow is with Mildred that the Fritz/Heinrich relationship is basically an eerie RP of FW/Fritz, and also in this that if FW, long after his death, was the figure Fritz still wanted love and pride from as well along with wanting to be his opposite, Fritz was that very figure for Heinrich. He seems to have been absolutely indifferent towards their father, there's no remark, either good or bad, on the record. The one he hated passionately and knocked himself out to work for and kept writing at least once a week to while he was still alive and kept obsessing about after his death was Fritz.
Von Krockow is good about both brothers, and laudably isn't coy re: their sexual orientation; though it's not his main subject, he devotes a chapter to Fritz/Fredersdorff on the one hand and Heinrich/his various boyfriends on the other, from which I learned Heinrich in his old age finally managed to score one who wasn't yet another charismatic money waster but kind and devoted, a French emigré officer, Antoine Count La Roche-Aymon. Von Krockow quotes Fontane (from his Rheinsberg chapter - that travel book, I tell you!): "Beautiful, graceful, amiable, an old school chevalier in the best sense of the world, he soon moved into a position of trust, and then into a relationship of the heart with the prince, of the type the later had not been able to enjoy since Tauentzien." (A previous boyfriend.) "The Count appeared as a present from heaven to him, the evening of his life had arrived, but behold, the setting sun gave him once more a beam of warming light."
In his last will, revised a few months before his death, Heinrich had mentioned him as follows: "I express my urgent gratitude towards the Count La Roche-Aymon for the tender devotion he has shown towards me during all the time I was happy enough to have him near me."
Von Krockow's resumé that life, in the end, had been kind to Heinrich. (His chapter on the brothers' love lives does not, alas, include the hot page Marwitz episode, so I'm still in the dark about that guy's first name or just how he was related to Wilhelmine's treacherous lady-in-waiting.)
More trivia: Mildred, contemporaries did testify that Heinrich as an adult did pretend not to speak German, but they always say "pretend", i.e. no one believed this was actually true. As opposed to his brothers, he managed to visit Paris twice (once when Louis XVI had to stand sponsor for the big credit needed to pay Heinrich's boyfriend's debts), and the people he met were charmed (and found him less opinionated than Joseph and less of an irritaging chatterbox than Gustav, the two most recent royal visitors) and testified he spoke an elegant French - but with a distinct "Germanic" accent. (Not surprising, since all the Prussian royals were taught French by Huguenot emigré descendants who had themselves been born in various German principalitis.) (Fritz seems to have had something of an accent, too, at least if Voltaire is anything to go by, who mentions he had to point out that "opinion" isn't pronounced with a g at the end, and "tete" does not rhyme with "trompette".)
There is a lengthy description of Heinrich in his old age at Rheinsberg by a Count Henckel von Donnersmark (of whom the director of "The Lives of Others" is descended, btw) which is over three pages, so I can't quote it in a comment, but it does mention that when the hour got very late, Heinrich's "no, I don't speak German,not me" slipped, especially when the 7 Years War got discussed, and a favored phrase was "Das will ich Ihnen noch sagen" ("one more thing I want to tell you"). Like Fritz, he had the local theatre play only French plays, all the time, though less exclusively Voltaire focused. And he did look like a figure from an older world in the end, with his Ancien Regime fashion and wig (Heinrich lived into the 19th century, after all), an excentric gentlemen with impeccable manners till the very end.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-21 05:41 pm (UTC)Maybe he also was sincere in offering his older brother guidance re: education
I absolutely think he was. Partly control issues, sure, but I wasn't kidding when I said in some other comment that Fritz was giving AW what he'd wished he had. This is not terribly unlike SD trying to get Wilhelmine the marriage she would have wanted for herself.
for example, Fritz took AW with him and Algarotti when making that trip across the French border
I had either not known or forgotten AW was included! I can *totally* see him coming out of it with the impression as Fritz as the coolest older brother ever.
SD threatened to have little AW whipped by rod if he didn't ask his father for a deserter's life - one of the long fellows
Oh my god. I'd known the second half of this story, but not the first. Was she nice to any of the kids except Fritz? And was that only because FW treated Fritz the worst of all the kids? OMG, this family.
they did NOT see the Austria/France alliance coming
They can be forgiven!
That's so cool about the roleplay, I had no idea. Did they predict a Prussian victory? And did they predict a Prussian victory *after* the Diplomatic Revolution happened?
AW's daughter Wilhelmine did say about Fritz in her memoirs "He was for me a second father, and his affectionate behavior towards me never changed".
Does AW's son Heinrich get a mention? Fritz was supposed to have been very close to him as well, and devastated when he died of smallpox at age 19. (I included him in my list of emotional isolation; did not know or had forgotten about Wilhelmine.)
Think about that while you're in the field. Think long and hard.
Ooof. And then the way Fritz reacts when Wilhelmine dies. :-(
Von Krockow is with Mildred that the Fritz/Heinrich relationship is basically an eerie RP of FW/Fritz
Yeah, I think it's too pat an explanation to be *only* that, but Heinrich is the one that's most like Fritz, and...it's eerie.
The one he hated passionately and knocked himself out to work for and kept writing at least once a week to while he was still alive and kept obsessing about after his death was Fritz.
I hadn't thought of it in these terms, but yes, you're absolutely right. It's FW/Fritz from the other side as well.
Our Insane Family: The First Generation Reprised.
Heinrich in his old age finally managed to score one who wasn't yet another charismatic money waster but kind and devoted
Aww, good. That's what we were hoping.
But why does no one include the Marwitz episode?! I've seen two different versions on how it played out, I don't trust either one, and I want to know what happened!
contemporaries did testify that Heinrich as an adult did pretend not to speak German
I forgot to mention, I looked up my source, and it said he "claimed" not to speak German. And my immediate reaction was, "Oh, well, that's completely different." Fritz would have claimed not to speak German if he could have gotten away with it. :P
Fritz seems to have had something of an accent, too, at least if Voltaire is anything to go by
Oh, from everything I've read, Fritz totally spoke French with a German accent, his poetry neither scanned (because he pronounced words with the "wrong" number of syllables) nor rhymed as a result, he knew it, and that was one reason he was so desperate to get Voltaire, and on reason he always referred to himself as being handicapped in literary matters by being a German.
This is all extremely great, thank you so much, and omg, word to the wise: try not to be born a Hohenzollern, or to marry one.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-22 08:59 am (UTC)What I also learned from these latest bunch of biographies: brother Ferdinand was actually permitted to marry for love. Whom did he fall in love with and marry? Wait for it - his niece, daughter of his and Fritz' sister Sophie. At which point you throw up your hands and wonder, leaving the close cross generational blood relationship and moral implications of same aside, why on earth a Hohenzollern would marry another Hohenzollern. (Seriously, guys, this is not how you want to compete with the Habsburgs.)
SD and non-Fritz kids: don't know. I mean, they're all "Woe, the best of mothers is dead" when she dies, but that's par the course for the era. Also the German wiki entry for Ulrike (though not the English one) says SD said about her that Ulrike was the sole daughter "whom I could never deny anything to."
The source Ziebura quotes re: the "little Wilhelm asks for mercy" story is Freilnghausen, who was a preacher from Halle whom FW had preach in Wusterhausen, his country mansion, and who noted down the following:
"The prince had been told by his mother the previous day how and for what he should plead, but Wilhelm was afraid his father would be angry. Seckendorff and Grumbkow, too, had talked to him and told him they would ease his path to the King, by saying something like "I believe your son carries something within his heart, Sire..." But only when the mother threatened him with the rod if he didn't say anything, he asked (SD's chief lady in waiting) von Kameken what "hanging" meant, if people got hurt by it, and of one died from it - and then he went to his father."
Whereupon this scene happened.
The prince began by kissing his father's hands and to stroke his cheeks. Rex asked: "You want something, don't you?" Wilhelm: "Yes, Papa." Rex: "What is it?" Wilhelm: "Please don't hang the long fellow who ran away." The King smiled but did not yet give a positive answer. The Queen signalled that the intercession found her favour. Grumpkow and Seckendorff, too, aided the little Prince. Whereupon Rex started to kiss the Prince and hold him in his arms. Now the Queen signalled (Freilinghausen) silently, he, too, was supposed to say something. (Freilinghausen) admonished mercy and said that one had to be harsh if murder had been committed, but in this case surely mercy sould take preference over the letter of the law. The King agreed, and so did the generals present.
Now obviously, saving a human life - especially of a poor guy who just was kidnapped for his body length - is a good thing, but it's still a bit chilling to read all the adults present using this kid. Now this was toddler Wilhelm; child and een Wilhelm, when brother Fritz sends him loving big brother letters from Neuruppin and Rheinsberg and asks him "to tell me bluntly whether or not the King has talked about me; even with a clear conscience I find myself somewhat concerned in this matter", is also delivering as requested:
As you want to know all what the King has been saying about you, so I allow myself to write to you that he has said this noon that he's building a lot of beautiful houses in Berlin; for he knew very well that after his death, my dear brother would have comedies and parties, mistresses and balls; that it would be a pleasure to my brother to waste all the money he had been saved with such hardships; but by now he did not care anymore. Secondly, he said he didn't like fops despite having one in the family. He knew very well which one, but that one was too old to be improved.
You will be surprised, dear brother, that I find the time to write, but I am not in good grace myself right now, and thus have not been taken along on the hunt. I have not done anything wrong! It is only that I did not know the name of a village. But it is alright, as long as he doesn't punish me harder, the way he does a hundred others. Now I am afraid I am boring you, and thus I conclude with the assurance that I will never forget the good advice of a brother whose affection I hope to deserve in the future.
Ziebura quotes a German (rhymed) translation of the praise-and-instruction poem Fritz wrote to AW, which ends with, after wishing glorious deeds (and more voluntarily read books) to young Wilhelm:
"While I am happy to observe
your victories, your joy, your nerve,
and shall content myself with philosophy
Your education as my only trophy"
(English rhymed translation of German rhymed translation by yours truly. It's not Schlegel and doesn't properly scan, but then neither is the Fritzian original.)
To which Whilhelm replies:
"For the epistle which you've sent
And all the praise that you did spent,
Receive much thanks! To me you wish much wisdom
With which, dear brother, you've always endowed been.
To all of us it would be good to heed,
to follow where your mind us wants to lead.
Then I'd be saved from clumsy ignorance,
through you, most noble brother - what a chance!
You are in everything a perfect man,
in body and in mind: salute I can!"
The tragic irony is that AW did learn more, improved his French, geography, maths etc to please his brother. Flash forward to 1749, Fritz has a big argument with Heinrich (which precedes him forcing Heinrich to marry)warming up his FW roleplay, AW tries his old role as family mediator, and:
F: You believe blindly anything (Heinrich) says. (...) Heinrich is your idol, your blind friendship doesn't let you recognize his mistakes. I love him as a brother but would regret it if he doesn't improve in the various aspects I told him. I am not acting out of a whim or to boast. Only his sloppy behaviour is at fault.
AW: I am sad to learn of the unfortunate idea you have of your brothers. The picture of Heinrich you paint, I don't recognize. You ascribe a character to him which I haven't notice, and you consider me so clueless that you believe I am dazzled and fooled by him.
(Can we say "Projecting into Heinrich much, Fritz?")
The roleplay: they finished it before the Diplomatic Revolution. But yes, Prussia wins. Heinrich-as-Fritz first defeats Hannover - the brothers assume that the English Parliament wouldn't be willing to okay British troops to save Hannover, since they felt their royals were too much involved with Hannover anyway - and then fights the Austrians to a standstill.
It does have all the signs of a modern RPG, for, to quote from the biography:
While Heinrich, playing the King, laid out the political-strategic plan and also wrote diplomatic notes, dispatches from ambassadors and memoranda, it was Gessler's, that it is Wilhelm's job to work out the practical side of the enterprise. He sent the King his dispositions for the occupation and defense of Hildesheim, made sketches of the Hildesheim, Misburg and Hannover fortresses indicating siege and weopon positions. He also organized supply lines and the disposition of the field ambulance units. He drew large maps for the battle plans.
How do we know all this? Because our two princes had the whole thing assembled and privately printed once they were done. It's not known whether Fritz ever got a copy.
AW's son Heinrich: nope, Ziebura says nothing about him other that he exists, though yes, I know he's supposed to have been Fritz' favourite nephew. Re: Wilhelmine the younger, I checked out wiki, and while English wiki is longer, German wiki has more about her relationship with Fritz. She married William V. of Orange, which makes her the ancestresss of the current Dutch royals. (BTW, this Hohenzollern connection is also why Willy was offered asylum/retirement in the Netherlands after WWI.) German wiki has this to say: She conducted a lengthy political correspondance with her uncle Frederick the Great, whose favourite niece she was supposed to be. Armed with his advice, she tried to win political influence on the rule of the Netherlands.
Fritz! Encouraging a woman to overrule her man on the throne when it suits you! I'm shocked, simply shocked. Whoever made you believe that would work?
Mysterious Marwitz episode: it's most frustrating. We will find out one day, I hope.:)
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 03:20 am (UTC)HOMG.
The roleplay: they finished it before the Diplomatic Revolution. But yes, Prussia wins.
But after the Diplomatic Revolution, when it ceased to be a hypothetical RPG and started to be life-or-death, did they have opinions about whether Fritz/Prussia could pull off a victory against these odds?
All I remember is Heinrich gloating after Kolin, which doesn't bode well for commitment to the cause...
Fritz! Encouraging a woman to overrule her man on the throne when it suits you!
Look, principles are not important when you're king. Only the state is important. If only Montezuma had known this, the Spanish conquest might have gone very differently. :P
I checked out Wikipedia just to see if niece Wilhelmine survived Fritz, and thank goodness she did. Both because we have enough people dying young in this century, and also because he survived enough people he cared about.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 07:41 am (UTC)As for AW, it's worth noting that as opposed to his youthful reaction to Fritz invading Silesia, which was basically "You're the coolest, Big Brother! But why didn't you tell me anything! Can I come, too! Wow, just wow!", he in the 1750s had a far darker view of war in general. In 1753, he wrote to the French Ambassador from Spandau:
"I'm getting up at four and am shooting at sparrows until seven. If one looks at this from a philosophical point of view, it sounds ridiculous, but if one considers that it's practice for the annihilation of human life, one wonders: where in this is our humanity? By now, it has become such a well practiced habit in the world to murder each other that the passing of time allows a crime which can't be justified through anything. The defense of our fatherland, the support of our allies can force us to see this with different eyes. That's why we go through the motions here. Add to this a pinch of vanity, and you are getting the picture."
(The French ambassador in question was that same Marquis de Valori who once quipped about Fritz: "Il n'est guère possible d'avoir plus d'esprit, et il est très possible d' en faire un meilleur usage.")
So basically, the dccumented reactions from both him and Heinrich in 1756 as to what this implied for Prussia can be summed up with "Shit, shit, can't we at least persuade the French to like us again, argh, must join the war effort to save the country!"
Von Krockow also quotes this bitter assessment from Heinrich in 1760 (i.e. at a point where AW is already dead but Heinrich himself, even in Fritz' estimation, has emerged as the major military talent of this war)where he writes to Ferdinand: "You are kind enough to ascribe the saving of the state to me; but even if I had all the abilities you are ascribing to me, they wouldn't be of any use, since I can't go against the will of the one who is dragging us all with him. He who commands under the King loses honor and reputation. (...) 'The State', my dear brother, is a name that gets used to throw sand into the eyes of the public; a villain who claims every success for himself and whom one serves like a human sacrifice."
To be fair,
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 03:48 pm (UTC)Going back in time a couple thousand years, to the wars among Alexander's successors, this reminds me of the time Demetrius wanted his father the king, Antigonus, to tell him when he planned to march, and Antigonus quipped, "Why? Are you afraid you alone of all the army will not hear the trumpet?"
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 08:20 pm (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-26 10:09 am (UTC)Fontane's summary of the disastrous event: As my readers know, Prince August Wilhelm was put in command of those troops who were to withdraw to Lausitz; Winterfeldt was added to him. Things went badly, and when the two brothers met again, that terrible scene took place, which Count Schwerin, Winterfeldt's adjutant, described as follows: "A circle of witnesses was formed in which the prince and all his generals stood. Not the king entered the circle, but Winterfeldt instead of him. On the King's orders he had to say: 'They would all deserve to have a council of war over their conduct, where they would not escape the dictum of losing their heads; however, the King did not want to push it so far, because he did not forget his brother in the General. "The King was standing near the circle," continues Count Schwerin, "and paid attention as to whether Winterfeldt was using the expressions demanded of him. Winterfeldt did so, but with a shudder, and he could at once see the impression of his words, for the prince immediately left the circle and rode to Bautzen without speaking to the King."
Now how much of this was scapegoating for a military disaster, or correct blame for a military disaster, or at long last channelling some buried resentment toward's Dad's favorite, or channelling his father in the worst way, or all and any of this, biographers have been debating ever since.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-29 04:06 am (UTC)From this description I could totally see him thinking that he had done right by AW, like, "what is your problem?? I would totally have been justified in killing him outright and I DIDN'T and look I'm just a merciful kind of guy why are you all so mad at me??"
FRITZ YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 08:18 pm (UTC)aaaaaaah WHY
Now obviously, saving a human life - especially of a poor guy who just was kidnapped for his body length - is a good thing, but it's still a bit chilling to read all the adults present using this kid.
Argh, yes.
Awwww your translations! I feel like they really get across the character of the different poems and poets -- Fritz's being workable but not quite scanning and Wilhelm's being just, well, cute and sweet and clearly done by a kid <3
Fritz! Encouraging a woman to overrule her man on the throne when it suits you! I'm shocked, simply shocked. Whoever made you believe that would work?
*the ghost of MT is not saying anything at all, but is looking super smug just about now*
Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-24 04:57 pm (UTC)„Prinz Heinrich, damals gemeinhin – zum Unterschiede von seinem berühmten Oheim in Rheinsberg – der junge Prinz Heinrich genannt, war der Sohn des 1758 zu Oranienburg verstorbenen Prinzen August Wilhelm von Preußen. Er war also Neffe Friedrichs des Großen wie zugleich jüngerer Bruder des späteren Königs Friedrich Wilhelms II. Friedrich der Große bezeigte ihm von dem Augenblick an, wo die Kriegsaffairen hinter ihm lagen, ein ganz besonderes Wohlwollen. Dies war ebensosehr in den allgemeinen Verhältnissen wie in den Eigenschaften des jungen Prinzen begründet. Dieser erschien von ungewöhnlicher Beanlagung, war klug, voll noblen Denkens und hohen Strebens, dabei gütig und von reinem Wandel; was indessen den König in all seinen Beziehungen zu diesem Prinzen eine ganz ungewöhnliche Herzlichkeit zeigen ließ, war wohl der Umstand, daß er sich dem verstorbenen Vater des Prinzen gegenüber, dem er viel Herzeleid gemacht hatte, bis zu einem gewissen Grade verschuldet fühlte, eine Schuld, die er abtragen wollte und an den ältern Bruder (den späteren König Friedrich Wilhelm II.), der ihm aus verschiedenen Gründen nicht recht zusagte, nicht abtragen konnte.“
„Prinz Heinrich hatte 1762 den lebhaften Wunsch geäußert, dem Könige bei Wiederbeginn der Kriegsoperationen sich anschließen zu dürfen. Friedrich lehnte jedoch ab, da der junge Prinz erst vierzehn Jahr alt war. Erst nach erfolgtem Friedensschluß wurde er von Magdeburg, wo er garnisonierte, nach Potsdam gezogen und trat als Hauptmann in das Bataillon Garde. Er gehörte nunmehr einige Jahre lang zu den regelmäßigen Mittagsgästen des Königs und begleitete diesen auf seinen Inspektionsreisen durch die Provinzen. 1767 im April übersiedelte der Prinz nach Kyritz, um nunmehr die Führung des hier stehenden Kürassierregiments oder auch nur eines Teils desselben zu übernehmen. Dies Kürassierregiment waren die berühmten »gelben Reiter«, deren Chef der Prinz bereits seit 1758 war.“
„Der Übernahme des Kommandos folgte, wenige Wochen später, jene Katastrophe, die ich, nach den Aufzeichnungen des Protzener Kirchenbuches, vorstehend mitgeteilt habe.“
„Rittmeister von Wödtke brachte die Trauerkunde dem Könige. Dieser war in seltenem Grade bewegt. Einer der höheren Offiziere sprach dem Könige Trost zu und bat ihn, sich zu beruhigen. »Er hat recht«, antwortete Friedrich, »aber Er fühlt nicht den Schmerz, der mir durch diesen Verlust verursacht wird.« – »Ja, Ew. Majestät, ich fühle ihn; er war einer der hoffnungsvollsten Prinzen.« Der König schüttelte den Kopf und sagte: »Er hat den Schmerz auf der Zunge, ich hab ihn hier.« Und dabei legte er die Hand aufs Herz. Eine ähnlich tiefe Teilnahme verraten seine Briefe. An seinen Bruder Heinrich in Rheinsberg schrieb er: »Ich liebte dieses Kind wie mein eigenes«, und an Tauentzien meldete er in der Nachschrift zu einer dienstlichen Ordre: »Mein lieber Hendrich ist tot.«“
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-24 09:14 pm (UTC)"Prinz Heinrich hatte 1762 den lebhaften Wunsch geäußert, dem Könige bei Wiederbeginn der Kriegsoperationen sich anschließen zu dürfen. Friedrich lehnte jedoch ab, da der junge Prinz erst vierzehn Jahr alt war."
In looking at the Henricus Major 1745/1746 correspondence, I find that Fritz also declined to let *him* go to war, age approximately 19.
So, um, asking for a friend...how close were Ulrike and AW? I ask because I went looking for that postscript, couldn't find it (probably because it's domestic rather than foreign and thus doesn't qualify as political correspondence), but ran across a letter to Ulrike in Sweden (who counts as political even when the subject is a death in the family?), telling her about the death of their mutual nephew.
And this--I'm not even going to call it a condolence letter, it's a "woe is me" letter--contains the following Fritzian gem about young late Henricus Minor: "C'était l'image de son père, il en possédait toutes les bonnes qualités, sans en avoir les défauts."
Which is to be translated:
Fritz: It's going on ten years and I'm still writing defensive death announcement letters about how I'm totally not responsible for AW's death!
Heinrich the Elder: Just you wait until it's been thirty years and I'm erecting an obelisk in his memory on the day of your funeral, bitch.
Oh, Fritz. Family therapy and hugs for everyone. No weapons, lots of music (though perhaps hold off on the fraternal rap battles).
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-25 06:36 am (UTC)In looking at the Henricus Major 1745/1746 correspondence, I find that Fritz also declined to let *him* go to war, age approximately 19.
I think that might be a misunderstanding? Because von Krockow in his double biography/portrait says Heinrich already distinguished himself in the Second Silesian War at the conquest of Prague (16 September 1744), battle of Hohenfriedberg (4th June 1745), and in the battle of Soor (September 30th 1745, the very day Franz Stephan got crowned as Emperor in Frankfurt), where Heinrich alredy commanded an infantry brigade in the rank of "Generalmajor". However, once the war was over, in 1746, he wanted to go on a Grand Tour through Europe instead of still doing military (peacetime) duty and comamnding the garnison in Spandau. (Which was his unwanted post-Silesia job that he neglected so he'd be allowed to go; that was what the argument with AW quoted earlier about Heinrich's character was about.) Fritz seems to have responded with "You're younger me, of course you don't get to go on the Grand Tour!" Heinrich then tries to sell the Grand Tour as a military educational tour, he's totally just going to check out every army and fortress in Europe to further become a better soldier.
To this, Krockow quotes the following Fritz letter: Dear Brother! Indeed I had not expected to receive a letter from you. However, since you've managed to sulk for six months and live in the same house with me without looking at me or talking to me, nothing surprises me anymore. However, I wasn't prepared for the project you are suggesting. I'm not opposed to you educating yourself. But given the little interest you're currently showing in patriotic military service doesn't seem promising to me regarding your future career in the field. Moreover, the habits in foreign armies are so different from ours that I don't see what you could possibly learn.
(Heinrich: probably tries to decide whether fratricide is a valid method for making AW king)
how close were Ulrike and AW?
Good grief. He was her favourite brother. Now he seems to have been everyone's favourite brother, other than Wilhelmine's, and he certainly had become her second favourite before the end, but Ulrike was just two years older than AW, so he was the brother she'd grown up with most, and when she married - but I need to paint a larger picture here.
U: About time! I've been cast as Rokoko Alexis Carrington Colby here, with no mention of what I had to put up with, and I'm not talking about Gustav threatening to send me home to Prussia if I didn't publically declare his little bastard wasn't a bastard. Pray do me justice now!
So: Sweden was actually a parliamentary monarchy at that time, meaning the role of Swedish royalty was mainly to represent, whereas true power was in the hand of parliament, with both nobles and middle class representatives.
Swedish parliament: Prussia under its new king seems to be something we need to keep an eye on. On the other hand, we've got our eternal feud with the Russians, so... how about marrying our crown prince to one of your sisters, new Prussian King?
Fritz: You can have Amalie or Ulrike. I'd take Amalie, she's nicer.
Swedish Parliament: That clearly means Amalie would be his biddable spy. We're taking Ulrike. She seems to have a will of her own.
U: Dear beloved brother Wilhelm, my new husband is alright, but would you believe bloody Fritz hasn't seen it fit to pay me my dowry yet? Dad left 30 O00 Taler to me in his last will. That's my money. Please make him forward my money!
AW: Fritz says he's fighting the second Silesian War and has no money to spare. I'll keep trying, but in the meantime, if your husband is fine and is about to become King, surely there are no financial worries?
U: Ha. You know who runs the show here? Nobles and peasants in parliament. They're deciding the budget for our household, not the King. And they keep cutting it down, because for some reason, they think I'm arrogant. I'm thinking I need to buy me some noble support. Now, is Fritz more willing to give me my money? Over here, we hear he's building himself a new palace!
AW: Sorry, couldn't write for a while, had to write to Heinrich and Wilhelmine instead. There's some family drama going on. I, um, let's just say you can try for yourself with Fritz regarding the money, but if you like, I'd totally take up credit with the banks to lend you some.
U: You're sweet, and yes, let's. Now, nobles of Sweden: I know you're for some weird reason into this parliament system, but what makes you think that if you keep treating burghers as if they actually had the same rights as you in government, they won't end up treating you like they do us already? All representation, no power? Think long and hard.
*new party in Sweden with nobles sympathetic to the Queen, or so she thinks* developes.
*some years later*
U: Dearest darling brother Wilhelm, you won't believe what just happened. Parliament insisted on examining my oldest kid Gustav, age 10, for his education. And now they've decided to fire his teacher and take over the education of all my kids, appointing teachers of their own. Could you PLEASE tell Fritz I need money
to overthrow parliament?AW: That's truly rotten. I'm horrified. And worried for you. Don't you have anyone to speak for you in parliament? Am, as ever, willing to lend you some of my own money.
U: Don't talk to me of parliament, some ingrates I financed in the past have just turned their back on me. If I send you the crown jewels as well as my own personal jewelry, could you sell it for me? I'm thinking I need money to raise an army. This is clearly a Charles I and Crowmell situation. I'm not losing my head to the bloody peasants.
(She did use those historical examples.)
AW: Charles I and Cromwell, seriously? "Dearest sister, I should hope that your cause is more just than that of Charles, and that you are far from the tyrannical frame of mind of Cromwell, who under the name of protector became one of the worst tyrants England ever had." (Literal quote.) Look, it sucks, but you did marry into a freedom-loving nation, and honestly - (Literal non paraphrased quote follows again): "If I was a Swedish senator, I would give the King the power to do good, but I would also use the laws to limit his authority to stop him from committing injustices. I would wish he'd be the first servant of the state, the most useful man of the kingdom, and if he worked the hardest, then he would be rewarded accordingly." This is not at all a hint for your husband to be more like Fritz and work harder. But I am sorry for that bit with your kids' teachers, and I promise I'll pawn your jewels for you. Not the crown jewels, though. I just think this is a bad idea.
U: *sends jewels, which get duly pawned by Wilhelm for her, except it turns out some of the jewelry consists of fakes, and the jeweller goes public with this*
Sweden: Scandal! What is the Queen up to pawning her jewelry in Prussia? Could she want to raise an army against parliament? And aren't those our jewels anyway?
U: No, they're mine, given to me at the time of my marriage. Unlike my bloody dowry, Fritz! I hate you all. Except you, Wilhelm. You're a bit naive, but you've been my only sympathetic ear in all of this.
Seven Years War: *breaks out*
U: Dear Wilhelm, please tell Fritz that parliament decided to join the alliance against him, and that it would never have happened if only he'd given me the money to overthrow them and reintroduce absolute monarchy in Sweden, so it is all HIS FAULT.
(Some years later, son Gustav actually does manage a state coup reintroducing absolute monarchy in Sweden. It's the one time he truly makes his mother happy. But alas, there's a scandal on the way....
ETA: Ulrike's "where's my money and my support?" thing of course also provides context for Ulrike's needlings in Wilhelmine's direction. From her pov: Wilhelmine's house burns down? Fritz provides money and art. Wilhelmine wants to travel to France and Italy, the very thing Fritz didn't allow his brothers and which is also expensive? Wilhelmine gets to do it, with Fritzian support. Wilhelmine pisses off Fritz by meeting with his arch nemesis? She gets forgiven. Meanwhile, Ulrike is nominally a queen and thus should be the most important sister, but has to pawn her jewelry, and then it even turns out either her father or her brother had given her fake jewelry back in the day.
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-25 03:41 pm (UTC)Good grief. He was her favourite brother.
I facepalmed so hard, you have no idea. Fritz fails ring theory again!
then it even turns out either her father or her brother had given her fake jewelry back in the day.
Oh no. The Hohenzollerns keep getting wackier
and more in need of therapists!Thank you for the Ulrike/AW summary!
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-25 08:21 pm (UTC)Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-26 10:16 am (UTC)Good point. After all, F1 had left the country in debt for 20 Million Reichstaler, his administration was famously corrupt, and secret jewlry sales would fit right in. FW didn't buy any new jewelry - whatever Ulrike got in his lifetime was from what was left from her grandfather's day. Fritz might have bought her something new on the occasion of her wedding, but....
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-29 04:07 am (UTC)Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-25 08:21 pm (UTC)Swedish Parliament: That clearly means Amalie would be his biddable spy. We're taking Ulrike. She seems to have a will of her own.
AHAHAHAHA Well, you tried, Fritz...
AW: Charles I and Cromwell, seriously? "Dearest sister, I should hope that your cause is more just than that of Charles, and that you are far from the tyrannical frame of mind of Cromwell, who under the name of protector became one of the worst tyrants England ever had." (Literal quote.) Look, it sucks, but you did marry into a freedom-loving nation, and honestly - (Literal non paraphrased quote follows again): "If I was a Swedish senator, I would give the King the power to do good, but I would also use the laws to limit his authority to stop him from committing injustices. I would wish he'd be the first servant of the state, the most useful man of the kingdom, and if he worked the hardest, then he would be rewarded accordingly." This is not at all a hint for your husband to be more like Fritz and work harder. But I am sorry for that bit with your kids' teachers, and I promise I'll pawn your jewels for you. Not the crown jewels, though. I just think this is a bad idea.
You know, I can see why AW was everyone's favorite. I think AW is my favorite too. <3
ETA: Ulrike's "where's my money and my support?" thing of course also provides context for Ulrike's needlings in Wilhelmine's direction.
Huh, that makes sense, I guess! BUT STILL.
D: What are you laughing about?
Me: I had no idea that 18thC Sweden was such a hotbed of sensational gossip!
Sweden: the Dallas of Rokoko Scandinavia
Date: 2019-11-26 08:46 am (UTC)Or, how a more sober writer puts it:
The Swedish envoy in Berlin, Carl Rudenschöld, inspected them and recommended that the proposal be made to Ulrika. Frederick the Great himself preferred Amalia for the Swedish marriage: he described Amalia for the Swedish representatives as goodhearted and more suitable for Sweden, while Ulrika was arrogant, temperamental and a plotting intriguer. It has been suggested that Fredrick's judgment was given because he believed that Amalia would be easier to control as a Prussian agent in Sweden than the strong willed and dominant Ulrika. After having consulted Adolf Frederick, however, the Swedes chose Ulrika, and her brother gave his consent on 1 March 1744. She was given tuition about Sweden, was advised not to get involved in politics, and converted to Lutheranism 28 June.
All I can say on this occasion is: Swedes, you had it coming. But I do want to know whether Fritz was being sincere or was using reverse psychology on that occasion.
I had no idea that 18thC Sweden was such a hotbed of sensational gossip!
And you being a Verdi fan, no less. Also, there's always Axel von Fersen who is almost ridiculously perfect as a tragic romantic hero, and other than his childhood bff Gustav certainly was the most sensationally gossipped about Swede of his age. Zweig's MA biography will introduce you to details, but for now, have some tidbits:
Young Axel on the Grand Tour, meeting Voltaire: I was struck by the beauty of his eyes and the vivacity of his expression. It was, I confess, curiosity rather than admiration which led me to seek his acquaintance (...) He was not only extremely clever, but also very lucky; and one of the reasons of his success was that he was disliked, admired and befriended by different great people in such a way that his fame could not fail to spread.
(How's that for a diss, Fritz?)
Then our young, good-looking count gets to Paris. And meets a young masked lady at the opera. Sparks fly, but upon learning she is, in fact, the (married) Dauphine of France, young Axel hastily resumes his Grand Tour, then goes back to Sweden, serving childhood bff Gustav for the next few years. Then he goes to France once more, meets the by then Queen again, and sparks fly enough for people to notice and gossip. Since our hero, unlike most nobles, actually is aware that being gossipped about is starting to be a bad thing about the young Queen of France, he hastily withdraws again, this time to the American Revolution, no less, where he fights for the revolutionaries (whom France is allied with, remember). He duly distinguishes himself and goes back to Sweden, which is when Gustav makes a trip through central Europe, including France, and takes him along.
By this point, the necklace affair has happpened and ruined MA's reputation with the French population, as it turns out, for good. (No matter that in this case, all historians agree she was entirely innocent.) In the aftermath, von Fersen decides to stay with her. And remains through the early Revolution. He organized the ill fated escape attempt to Varennes and almost every other escape attempt thereafter, and tried his best to get first brother Leopold, then nephew Franz to do something for MA, he did manage to get Gustav on board with the "rescue the French Royals" train but then, well, masque ball. Axel von Fersen like a rl Scarlet Pimpernell managed to get into Revolutionary France again and again, but he could not save MA. He then returned to Sweden, heartbroken and full of guilt about having failed.
Fast forward to Gustav IV. Adolf being deposed by his uncle Charles; von Fersen leads the pro-Gustavian party in Sweden and gets blamed by public rumor for the death of Charles' only son (who when reviewing troops fell from his horse and died of apoplexy). When Axel von Fersen, in his capacity of peer of the realm, took part in the crown prince's funeral, he was, literally, torn apart by the mob. I kid you not. Quoth wiki: First curses then copper coins and various missiles were hurled at the carriage till its windows were broken; then savage threats and showers of stones become continuous, and, at last in the Riddarhustorget, at the instant when the escort was turning to the right, a tremendous crowd barred the way of Fersen's carriage ... the [guards] remained passive while the rabble unharnessed the horses, and dragged Fersen out of the coach.
Von Fersen, with a violent effort, flung back one of the assailants who grasped him and shook himself free of the others who were pressing round. There was a momentary lull, and the curses shrank from shouts to mutterings. Von Fersen's face bled where a stone had cut it, his decorations glittering in the sun. The guards, who were supposed to protect him, gazed at him with a sort of curious expectancy.
It was at this moment when Beaumont arrived on the scene with General Silfversparre and a small detachment of troops. This intervention further enraged the large crowd. Von Fersen, realizing that the authorities planned to do nothing, turned and dashed into the first door he could find. The crowd converged on this spot, and a few ran into the house in pursuit of him.
Before long, one man appeared at the window "and with a triumphant shout" hurled down von Fersen's cloak and sword, which were seized by the angry crowd. Von Fersen was dragged back out into the square. His gloves were pulled off and thrown in his face, and his coat torn off and trampled upon. Silfversparre, attempting to save von Fersen, offered to arrest him and have him tried in court for the Crown Prince's murder. At this moment, the mounted escort turned and rode away. The mob "had been almost quiet, but now raised yells of delight and triumph, and fell upon von Fersen".
Von Fersen's contemporary, Baron Gustaf Armfelt, stated afterward:
One is almost tempted to say that the government wanted to give the people a victim to play with, just as when one throws something to an irritated wild beast to distract its attention. The more I consider it all, the more I am certain that the mob had the least to do with it ... But in God's name what were the troops about? How could such a thing happen in broad daylight during a procession, when troops and a military escort were actually present?
Axel von Fersen died that day in Stockholm as Sweden's highest-ranking official next to the King; his death sent shock waves throughout the country. The cause of death was determined to be "crushing of the ribcage" when the Swedish-Finn Otto Johan Tandefelt jumped with both feet on Fersen's chest.
He had never married. His sister buried him with this enscription on his tomb:
To an unforgettable brother, the courage in his last moments on 20 June 1810, bears testimony to his virtues and clean conscience.
Re: Sweden: the Dallas of Rokoko Scandinavia
Date: 2019-11-29 04:02 am (UTC)How was I supposed to know that Verdi was actually following history?? :) (no, seriously, whenever you or mildred is like "so this thing happened in real life that's actually in the libretto" I'm like, "really??")
and one of the reasons of his success was that he was disliked, admired and befriended by different great people in such a way that his fame could not fail to spread.
hahahahahaha!
Axel von Fersen! :(((((((((( geeeesh.
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-28 01:51 am (UTC)Wait, so he actually said, non-paraphrased literal quote, "first servant of the state"? Yeah, that's not subtle at aaaallll.
Also, way to have constitutional monarchical principles that are flexible enough to accommodate Dad and Older Bro, AW. A+ mental gymnastics.
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-28 11:17 am (UTC)So he did. :) (BTW, do we know when Fritz first started to use that phrase? I.e. would Ulrike have caught the implication at once?)
AW seeing both Fritz and FW as role models in terms of kingship: the inevitable result of a childhood as FW's favorite son and then an adolescence thinking Fritz was the coolest? The respect for constitutional monarchy per se is also interesting. Heinrich later was one of the few European high ranking nobles who didn't take against the French Revolution once heads started to roll, which caused one 19th century Prussian historian to helplessly speculate: Maybe he was such a Francophile that even a French Revolution was okay by him, as long as it was French?
...or maybe, just maybe, both AW in his seeing the point of limiting royal power and Heinrich seeing the point of the French Revolution reflect a personal awareness of what unlimited royal power can do, historian.
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-28 04:31 pm (UTC)Well, I don't know how widespread his use of it was, and whether it would automatically click in Ulrika's mind like it does in ours, but the first reference I find to it is in his memoirs of the house of Brandenburg. Those were published 1747-1748, so if that letter is from 1755 or 1756, Fritz had definitely come up with the phrase and published it by then.
By the way, the context for this is "Grandpa F1 was *not* the first servant of the state."
Actual quote: "His court was one of the most fabulous in Europe; his embassies were as magnificent as those of the Portuguese; he trampled the poor, to fatten the rich; his favorites received large pensions, while his people were in misery; his buildings were sumptuous, his parties magnificent; his stables and his offices had more of Asian pomp than European dignity about them."
Two pages later begins the chapter about FW. I can see where this is going.
AW seeing both Fritz and FW as role models in terms of kingship: the inevitable result of a childhood as FW's favorite son and then an adolescence thinking Fritz was the coolest?
Maybe not strictly inevitable, but extremely natural, I would agree.
...or maybe, just maybe, both AW in his seeing the point of limiting royal power and Heinrich seeing the point of the French Revolution reflect a personal awareness of what unlimited royal power can do, historian.
Yeeeeaaaah. Omg, those Prussian historians.
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-29 04:34 am (UTC)Yeah, AW seems kinda... perceptive, from what you guys have shared about him.
Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-29 04:40 am (UTC)Pssst, what about a flute-bustin' Prussian?
what about a flute-bustin' Prussian
Date: 2019-12-02 09:21 pm (UTC)Re: what about a flute-bustin' Prussian
Date: 2019-12-03 12:41 am (UTC)Re: Heinrich the Younger, AW's son
Date: 2019-11-25 08:19 pm (UTC)I CAN'T EVEN. Especially with
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-21 05:44 pm (UTC)Hohenzollern family group dynamics are THE WORST. :((((((((
Heinrich and AW :((((( Just your saying Heinrich... really loved him above and beyond, same intensity as the Fritz/Wilhelmine relationship. ...yeah, when you said that I was like, now I do know where this is going :(
Amalie was present through most of it, and said report, in great detail, tearstained and with ink blots, is adressed to Fritz. It doesn't include a direct accusation, but Ziebura thinks the very fact she writes this detailed has a "this is your fault, now at least learn what it was like" subtext.
Heinrich, of course, did not need subtext.
They just all need lots and lots of hugs and therapy :(
Fritz, you know, the sibling YOU love? You've killed her along with the one I loved best as well. Think about that while you're in the field. Think long and hard.
Oh. Ouch. OUCH.
"The Count appeared as a present from heaven to him, the evening of his life had arrived, but behold, the setting sun gave him once more a beam of warming light."
Aww, that is sweet! And I love the picture of old!Heinrich as an eccentric gentleman with impeccable manners <3 Also, lol for Heinrich's German.
(uh, my French pronounciation is worse than my reading comprehension -- do they not rhyme because of the difference between "te" and "tte," and/or is there some slight difference in the vowel? I suck so badly at vowels!)
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-22 09:18 am (UTC)And yes, no kidding about family therapy and hugs. And no one has access to any weapons. Music, otoh, is not just permitted but encouraged.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-22 03:56 pm (UTC)This, this, and this!
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-22 05:09 pm (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-23 10:55 am (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-24 11:44 am (UTC)Btw, here's a footnote German wiki has on the hot page:
"Der „schöne Marwitz“ ist vermutlich identisch mit dem auf dem Rheinsberger Obelisken ohne Nennung seines Vornamens als "Quartiermeister bei der Armee des Königs" mit der Lebensspanne 1724-1759 erwähnten Angehörigen der Familie von der Marwitz."
("Beautiful Marwitz" is probably identical with the Marwitz family member included on the Rheinsberg Obelisk without a mention of his first name as "Quatermaster with the army of the King" and a life span of 1724 to 1759.")
Otoh the Wiki entry for the entire Marwitz family thinks the Obelisk Marwitz is "The Black Marwitz" who "soll dem König verweigerte haben, bei Hochkirch das Lager für die Preußische Armee aufzuschlagen, was sich durch den anschließenden Überfall bei Hochkirch als Weise erwies" ("is supposed to have refused to the King to make camp for the Prussian army at Hochkirch, which due to the later attack on Hochkirch turned out to have been a wise decision"). Which would fit with the general Obelisk theme of "People who were fucked over by Fritz" in a metaphorical, not literal way better.
Another footnote says the four letters from Fritz to Heinrich re: Marwitz the hot page were written in March 1746, which, if you'll recall, means this was happening simultanously to the end phase of his argument with Wilhelmine, featuring Marwitz the cheating lady in waiting. Or, was Wilhelmine would say, "the sympathy of our fates strikes again".
Lastly, two more bits of trivia about Hohenzollerns being just... well... so Heinrich in his old excentric gentleman phase has many to be expected cultural hobbies, and one really weird one. Apparantly he liked to look at the occasional corpse in Rheinsberg. But not until some make-up had been put on the dead fellow to make him look less corpse-like.
And secondly, on a note of "it's sweet, but also yet another example of 'you two were a scandal that never happened due to your orientation'": Fritz writes to Wilhelmine in the early 1730s that she should send him a ribbon of hers she's worn at least 14 days.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 03:08 am (UTC)Yeah, I'm going to go with "probably the military context," but you never know. At least one biographer seems to think the Marwitz episode is when Heinrich's hatred of Fritz started, so..."Oh, how I hate you, let this obelisk count the ways."
Btw, it occurred to me that on the subject of the Fritz/Heinrich and FW/Fritz parallels, my feelings in this fandom can be summed up thusly:
Re Fritz: Hate the sin, love the sinner.
Re FW: HATE the sinner!
That's fair, right? :P
the four letters from Fritz to Heinrich re: Marwitz the hot page were written in March 1746
My sources also say March 1746. I went to look at his personal correspondence to reread the letters in question (I don't remember them being fully enlightening last time, but weak French + Google was probably not helping)--and I couldn't find them. I had "Marwitz" in my search history, proving that I did look them up before, but this time I'm only seeing a handful of letters from 1745-1746, and none of them seem to involve hot pages, and none of the 1746 ones are dated.
I'm terribly confused, because I could have sworn I read at least the letter where Fritz was saying "gonorrhea and flabby body" to Heinrich, and have some vague memory of the letter beyond that line...and yet now I can't find it. Perhaps I read it quoted somewhere else? I know I was looking into the lust triangle episode a while back. Anyway. I'm sure we'll get it sorted one day, thanks to your diligent efforts!
Also. March 1746 is not just the time of the Wilhelmine/Margrave/Marwitz love triangle. I *just* realized. It's also, generally speaking, the time of Darget.
As recounted here, December 1745 is when the French send Darget to (allegedly) try to seduce Fritz into not abandoning their alliance; January 1746 is when Darget comes to Berlin to
make an alliance of his ownbe Fritz's librarian. So now I'm imagining...Fritz: Look, I just won a war and my people are calling me "the Great"--of course I'm super revved up. Ima look at some pretty boys and build a palace, fuck yeah. \o/
Chronology is everything. :-PPP
(Also Fritz around this time: Hey, Algarotti!)
Apparantly he liked to look at the occasional corpse in Rheinsberg. But not until some make-up had been put on the dead fellow to make him look less corpse-like.
...I mean, at this point all I can do is stare at him and go, "I guess that's far from the weirdest thing a Hohenzollern ever did. You do you, Heinrich." (Do you need some therapy?)
it's sweet, but also yet another example of 'you two were a scandal that never happened due to your orientation'
Oh, you Hohenzollerns.
So when you said Heinrich and AW had a relationship of the same intensity as Fritz/Wilhelmine, and this time one has the right orientation and the other is bi according to at least one gossipy sensationalist...does that mean Heinrich/AW scandal fodder yes/no/maybe?
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 07:08 am (UTC)re: AW's sexuality, Ziebura doesn't mention any m/m affairs for him, but she certainly describes him as an ally in this regard. Because, you see, with his usual talent of picking teachers for his kids who were supposed to do one thing and who did then just the opposite when his back was turned, FW hired a steward for teenage AW and his kid brothers Heinrich and Ferdinand who was supposed to ensure their utter chastity, one Lt. von Kreyzen. Writes FW, in a letter still preserved:
To that end, he must never let Prince Wilhelm sleep alone at night, he shall sleep in the same room as the prince, always, and he must see and be responsible for the Prince Wilhelm not to go to whores, fornicate, or commit silent sins. (...) If he visits places with the prince, he is never to leave him alone. The prince is to talk to everyone but never to have any sinful discourses.
I take it "silent sins" means masturbation. Now, you probably guessed where this is going: Kreyzen turns out to be gay. Very gay. As for sinful discourses, here's AW some years later, writing to brother Ferdinand who at that point is the sole one left in von Kreyzen's charge, inviting the both of them to visit him, AW, at the military revue in Spandau, and adding as a postscript/inducement to Kreyzen: "I'm holding a beautiful ass and fleshy tighs ready for him." And at another opportunity, writing to Kreyzen directly: "My prettiest fellows expect your thick priapus full of impatience."
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 03:36 pm (UTC)Oh LOLOLOL it's Keyserlingk all over again!
Man. Whatever the opposite of gaydar is, FW had an unerring instinct for it, didn't he?
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 03:59 pm (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 04:03 pm (UTC)OMG, FW, your kids are all showing signs of being attracted to each other and/or their nieces, and you're drooling over your tall guards, HALP.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 04:50 pm (UTC)Go Fritz, I suppose? Doing something nice for a sibling who isn't Wilhelmine? On the other hand, Wiki also says, re: Fritz and this brother-in-law in general (who was also his cousin): In contrast to his father's policy Frederick II sought to distance himself from his Schwedt cousins, humiliating them at every chance. He made them unwelcome at his court, undermined the margrave's authority in his own dominions by encouraging complaints and lawsuits by his tenants and neighbours and, most effectively, he marginalised the position of the Schwedt brothers within the Prussian army. Margrave Frederick William was removed from command in the army.
....Yeah, Elisabeth Luise (aka the niece) sure grew up in a peaceful family atmosphere, alright.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 08:24 pm (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-26 07:11 am (UTC)He was, however, sick during the actual wedding, which meant Fritz was the one who gave Sophie away in church. And if he provided her with an authorized knight to shield her from Schwedt's abuse, I'd say Fritz must have had a pretty clear idea about what that brother-in-law was like from the beginning, too.
Like I said: among the choices she had, Wilhelmine clearly picked the right guy.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-29 03:57 am (UTC)Yeeeeeah. Ugh.
Secondly, that Margrave, between loving to hunt, loving to drink beer and loving rough pranks was just FW's type of fellow.
I'm just... okay, it sucks that Sophie ended up with him, but I'm still really glad Wilhelmine didn't. I had this visceral reaction to "just like FW" and thinking about Wilhelmine with him :(
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 08:24 pm (UTC)...yeah, have I mentioned repressed? OMG.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 08:23 pm (UTC)attractivelike someone I'd like to see around the placelike a good steward for my teenage boy!")Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 09:05 pm (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 08:23 pm (UTC)(This is, of course, a dare for both of you! Prove me wrong :P :D )
(I do not find the Potsdam giants endearing, I find them disturbing.)
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 09:03 pm (UTC)I mean, between the fact that I'm still fascinated by military history, and the fact that I sometimes outright cheer for the villains in movies...Fritz fits right into my brain's "problematic faves <333" slot, and he hasn't budged yet.
Prove me wrong :P :D
Ahem.
(Athena's backstory with FW in this unwritten AU has kind of a hilarious intersection with some of today's topics, and it's been making me laugh.)
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-25 09:19 pm (UTC)nolots more!" :-PPRe: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-26 08:00 am (UTC)But while Prussia's foremost abusive father, FW certainly was remarkable, and not in the ironic or "remarkably awful" sense, and prettty much unique among the princes of his time, in applying hardcore protestant work ethics to himself as well as his entire kingdom, making having a sense of duty, of service to the state, as a part of national self definition in a way that was not there for any other realm of the era. Even Peter the Great, that other worker and reformer on the throne of FW's generation, didn't abandon personal splendour (I mean, during military campaigns he did, but not when residing somewhere); FW took the whole "restoring my overdebted kingdom" thing to mean "thriftiness starts with me".) Von Krockow makes an intriguing comparison to Robesspierre, starting with a quote comparison daring the reader to guess whether it was FW or Max the revolutionary who said this, and I can totally see his point. They are pretty similar both in the ways they are remarkable and in the ways they are appalling, and FW was a revolutionary from the top in the context of his time and what he was trying to achieve.
(The quote: "We want to replace egoism by moral in our country, honor by decency, habits by princples, etiquette by duty, enforced tradition by the rule of common sense, the condemnation of misfortune by the condamnation of vice (...) and so-called good society by good people.")
(Obvious problem for both FW and Robespierre, and all ideologues - zero tolerance towards people who didn't want to be reformed to their way of thinking.)
Another unironic remarkable thing about FW is that for all his militarization of an entire country, and his army fetish, he didn't start a single war. He only fought in wars others had started, usually in his capacity of being a prince of the HRE and being called for duty by MT's dad. Now you'd think that once he had created the most modern army of Europe, he'd been dying to try it out, not least because there were two pieces of land he thought he had a claim on (neither of them Silesia btw) and hoped, in vain, MT's dad would give him as reward for his consistent loyalty, but no. If you were a soldier in FW's army, you might have been kidnapped for your body size or otherwise gang pressed, but you had a pretty good chance of survival, which, err, changed once his successor got on the throne.
(Von Krockow in his ponderings on Prussia per se states that for good or ill, the emergence of Prussia as a European power and its subsequent rise to THE German power, dominating all the others and changing them in its image, really depended on the combination of FW and Fritz as monarchs following each other. If F1 had been followed by a successor like himself, Prussia had never become more than a tiny overindebted principality with delusions of grandeur for calling itself a kingdom instead of a dukedom. If FW had been followed by "an avarage, or just an honorable man", then "Maria Theresia ascends to the throne untroubled, the Pragmatic Sanction holds" because no one wants to be the first to break it, and "Prussia remains a third rate German principality", financially sound and with a great civil service for a generation, true, but not in any way a model for any of the others. Again, an argument can be made that this would have been better in the long term. But it is not what happened, and I can see von Krockow's point - which is not his alone but a pretty popular one among traditional historians - that the entirety of subsequent German history depended on that father-son combination.
Lastly, an anecdote he quotes about FW's death, which you may or may not find endearing: On his deathbed the pious soldier had a choral being sung for him, the song by Paul Gerhardt "Warum sollt ich mich grämen? Hab ich doch Christum noch..." ("Why should I mourn? For I have Christ with me...") In the second verse, the lines go "Nude I lie on the floor/as I came into this world, took my first breath/ nude will I leave it..." When hearing these words, the pain-tormented majesty rose once more and thundered: "What do you mean, nude? I arrive, of course, in uniform!"
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-28 03:19 am (UTC)I still hate him, though. :P
BUUUUT, I have to admit that last uniform anecdote is pretty great. I wish it were from someone I actually liked. Ahem.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-29 03:50 am (UTC)That is kind of cool actually that he didn't start any wars, especially compared to Fritz. And really interesting about the FW-Fritz combination.
there were two pieces of land he thought he had a claim on (neither of them Silesia btw)
...this is totally hilarious.
OK, FW as surprise midwife is kind of endearing, actually. And hee, the story about his death is totally awesome (although I might fall short of calling it endearing, lol).
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-29 11:40 am (UTC)(This is why I can't make up my mind about what FW would actually have thought of Frederick the Great. On the one hand: far from becoming a reborn F1, Fritz turns Prussia into a European power on a level with France, England, Russia and Austria. Yay! And he's as hard a worker on the throne as FW could ever have asked for. On the other hand: he's influencing his younger siblings to be anti-Church as well, freethinkers aren't just encouraged but invited into the country, and good lord, but do a lot of people die in wars he's mostly started: damnation surely is to follow.)
The two principalities FW thought he had a claim on were Berg and Jülich; if Fritz had started a war about them, it would not completely have surprised people. Whereas Silesia...
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-29 05:39 pm (UTC)Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-29 07:26 pm (UTC)If you were a soldier in FW's army, you might have been kidnapped for your body size or otherwise gang pressed, but you had a pretty good chance of survival, which, err, changed once his successor got on the throne.
Especially if you were kidnapped for reasons of body height! You were for painting and parading around, not for risking in battle. Fritz's death tolls: *grimace*
Also, meant to say, re dying in his uniform: teenage Fritz would have found that an appropriate use for the Sterbekittel!
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-11-30 05:19 pm (UTC)I am also reminded that this was not just PTSD-ed son independently trying to appease his father, but an expectation of all commanders in the Prussian army to supply FW with their quota of tall soldiers for his viewing pleasure.
*silence for everyone impressed into the Prussian army under father or son*
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-01 09:01 am (UTC)Wilhelmine's father-in-law the old Margrave, btw, was understandably pissed off when the tall-guy-napping by Prussian "recruiters" started in his realm as well, and hit the roof when it got him into trouble with the neighbouring principality of Bamberg (aka my hometown), because naturally those Prussian "recruiters" did not always pay attention to borders, and thus ended up kidnapping a subject of the Prince Bishop of Bamberg, who was decidedly NOT willing to provice one of his people for the King in Prussia to drool over.
Add to this that this was while FW was simultanously bullying his new son-in-law, and Team Bayreuth must have wondered whether they should not have married Bayreuth Friedrich to ANYONE ELSE but a Prussian princess. It's to future Margrave's credit he never took it out on her.
(Note, Hohenzollern brothers: it's possible not to relieve your own trauma/anger/frustration by taking it out on your wives. See newest book report below.)
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-02 09:23 pm (UTC)Man, Wilhelmine really did luck out -- by which I mean, married someone who wasn't horribly awful and/or had awful PTSD or both -- wow, my standards for 18thC marriage (from the woman's perspective) are super low. And probably still too high :P
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-03 05:50 am (UTC)Man, Wilhelmine really did luck out
Yeah, just cheating on your wife with her best friend gets you like an A-, when grading on the curve of other men in 18th century marriages!
How much childhood trauma did the Margrave have? Not to defend the Hohenzollerns, but childhood trauma vs. conflicts with equals beginning in adulthood makes a big, big difference to general fucked-up-ness. (It is possible to be deeply traumatized and not take it out on other people, of course, but the deck is stacked more against you with childhood trauma--which is almost word for word what Fritz told Catt, not just about himself but when observing other people who shared his anger management issues.)
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-04 05:26 pm (UTC)The answer to this question is found in a reply at the latest post, she says with an evil laugh, here.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-03 05:53 am (UTC)There were giants on the earth in those days.ETA: I meant to say, nice use of "King in Prussia" there!
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-02 09:23 pm (UTC)But that quote about wars is... actually... kind of endearing to me. FINE.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-03 12:28 am (UTC)Fritz: *stares at Dad*
Fritz: *cries*
HEAVILY implied "See, my
abusetraumarehabilitation worked!" (Which was also the discourse of Prussian historians for, like, forever. Including the devoutly Protestant homophobic ones.)That's why I think he looks for the parts he likes, takes credit, and tries to overlook what he can't change, while occasionally muttering darkly to himself. (I mean, once you've reincarnated him, there's the whole theology question, but I'm not interested enough in FW to figure out *what* he would have made of the eternal damnation aspect. Oh, and I'm not letting him *around* Fritz in this AU. They stay on opposite sides of the planet, and FW quickly kicks it
in a highly satisfying mannerbefore that can change. :P)Also, huh. This reminded me strongly of the Fritz/Heinrich dynamic when Fritz was dying and having a cunning plan to keep Heinrich from feeling relieved once he kicked it. Well, he was relieved, but also immediately started talking Dad up to everyone, including Wilhelmine.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-05 05:01 pm (UTC)So, like, I was feeling a little more sorry for FW due to asking you guys for good stories about him, but NOW I DON'T ANY MORE.
...yeah, I can now totally see the parallels to what selenak has been telling us about Fritz/Heinrich.
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-05 06:11 pm (UTC)And FW did at least the following:
- Teenage Fritz is very sick. FW, who's been terrorizing him, writes to someone (Grumbkow?) that "You don't know how much you love your kids until you're afraid of losing them."
- In his first meeting with Fritz after the escape attempt, in August 1731, after Fritz grovels a lot and gets berated, lets him off easy, to the point where a shocked Fritz was like, "Maybe he does love me?"
- As selenak recounted to us from Fontane, has the gallows removed from Ruppin before Fritz arrives.
- Says a few nice things to Fritz in his last couple mellower years when he was sick and dying, including the "I think he's going to do fine."
I mean, *I* am the one reading between the lines of "See? It totally worked!" BUT I think that's totally reasonable. He's just got justify all that suffering somehow.
Incidentally, all this is why, even without the prospect of eternal damnation, I've always been inclined to think that even an atheistic FW would not have killed his son in cold blood. Hot, yes, but I think some fatherly feeling played a role in why he let himself be talked out of it. This does not mean that he wasn't abusive as hell. It just means I think "visceral hate" isn't the whole story. I really think "feedback loop" is a huge part of the story. I mean, as selenak pointed out, he got into a good feedback loop with AW.
Also: future FW is going to notice Frederick the Great praising FW as king, and modeling himself on FW to a significant degree. He's also going to notice how everyone is keeping their coffins together through the centuries and speaking of them as the two greatest things that ever happened to Prussia/Germany. (Even now that the coffins are no longer side by side, they're still way too close for my tastes.) Given all this, and his predisposition to think Fritz was going to do fine as king, I feel like future FW starts patting himself on the shoulder. Otherwise he has to admit the rehabilitation failed, and everything he did was for naught. And rationalization is a huge force in human psychology.
I suspect FW ends up with the same attitude toward Fritz that Fritz has toward him: "Great king...wow, there were some problems, but all in all, A+ job, fellow Hohenzollern."
Speaking of rationalization, I also wonder how much mileage FW can get out of that historical claim to Silesia. :P
Re: More Book Reports: AW bio, Fritz and Heinrich double portrait/lengthy essay
Date: 2019-12-05 07:41 pm (UTC)I don't think the "cunning plan" was actually a cunning plan, btw, in either case. I think in both cases the abusers had some warm-and-fuzzies, aka a love-hate relationship, and the acts of affection were genuine. And staring your own mortality in the face is something that warms a lot of people toward their family members, and Fritz and FW were no exceptions, imo.
French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-22 05:23 pm (UTC)Short answer: they rhyme today but didn't necessarily rhyme in Voltaire's day.
Long answer...well, bear in mind that I had only one semester on the history of the French language--
Originally, back in Cicero's day in Latin, "t" and "tt" would have been pronounced differently, but by about the year 1000 they were pronounced the same in French. So Voltaire would not have heard any difference between the consonants. It's the vowels he would have cared about.
Now, the word "tête" comes from Latin "testa". Some time in the Middle Ages, "s" before a following consonant got turned to "h", pronounced "tehta".
Then the "h" stopped being pronounced, but to make up for the lost consonant, the preceding vowel went from a short vowel to a long vowel. This was represented by putting a circumflex over the vowel. So "tête" had a long vowel, and "trompette" a short vowel, for several hundred years, and the modern spelling difference reflects this historical difference.
Around Voltaire's time, French speakers stopped pronouncing vowel length differences. Like most sound changes, this took multiple generations and caught on gradually. There was a period when some people were pronouncing them the same, and some people were pronouncing them differently.
My guess (this is an educated guess) is that in ordinary, casual speech in France, and in German-speaking regions, the two words rhymed, but someone known for speaking the "best", i.e. conservative, French, like Voltaire, would still observe a difference, especially because they were spelled differently, and because the poets of preceding generations Voltaire and Fritz were emulating were not rhyming them.
Today, they rhyme in most dialects, including in Paris, and I know this not because I can pronounce French vowels*, but because I asked a friend who grew up just outside Paris to confirm Wikipedia.
* I barely even pronounce English vowels: people make fun of what vowels I rhyme and don't rhyme all the time. :P Case in point, I pronounce "sell" and "sail" the same. I have most but not all the mergers on this page.
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-22 06:24 pm (UTC)Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-22 07:29 pm (UTC)Your measly three years of French in a German (I assume) school probably far surpass my measlier two years of French in a not only American, but academically poor even by American standards, high school. That plus my one semester of French historical linguistics in college is about it for me and French.
My German background is even weirder: one semester of proper German in college, one semester on German syntax from a linguistic perspective (so a lot of diagramming sentences and reading up on different theories that account for where verbs go), one semester on reading academic German in grad school, two semesters of Middle High German, and a few semesters of even more remotely removed long dead Germanic languages: Old English, Old Norse/Icelandic, Gothic. ;) All of these give me a slight edge in reading German over an English speaker who had only that one semester of German 101, but leave me with a total German reading proficiency that is actually worse than my two years of high school French. Largely due to English having a far greater overlap in vocabulary with French, notwithstanding that it's a Germanic language.
I will never cease to complain that my graduate program:
- required nominal reading proficiency in French and German,
- failed to provide us with resources to acquire academic reading proficiency without taking years and years of irrelevant "When is the train coming?" undergraduate courses on spoken French/German that no one actually had time for,
- held the bar so low we could pass without actually being able to read French or German, thus giving us no incentive to prioritize reading proficiency over all the other things we were trying to cram into our years there.
And then we'd get random lectures like, "You know, you should also learn to read academic Russian," and we'd blink and stare at our advisors like..."I don't disagree. In principle."
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-22 07:33 pm (UTC)Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-25 08:25 pm (UTC)Of course I didn't keep it up, so it's not like I can read any better than either of you at this point :P And my pronunciation was always execrable.
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-25 08:24 pm (UTC)Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2019-11-25 08:43 pm (UTC)Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-26 12:07 pm (UTC)Diaries of Count Ernst von Lehndorff, Chamberlain to the Queen, dated January 9th 1757: "I renewed my aquaintance with a man whom I hadn't seen since 1749. It is a young Marwitz who started his career as page to the King and became his as well as Prince Heinrich's favourite. This affection went so far that the two royal brothers were fiercely arguing with each other for his sake. The young page was sent away, but after urgent petitions by Prince Heinrich rehired."
Now for letter excerpts. (All by Fritz, Heinrich's replies don't exist anymore.) Heinrich got sick near the end of carnival time and thus is in Berlin, when Fritz (who is in Potsdam) writes to him on March 3rd, 1746:
"I am glad to hear you are recovering from your colic. Don't go out again too early, and allow your body time to recover. Your little favourite is doing very well, and if he remains good, you'll soon see him again. Right now, he's pining for love and is composing elegies full of hot kisses in your honor which he intends to give you upon your return. I advise you not to exhaust yourself so that you have enough strength to express your love. The happiness of the immortals will not be equal to yours, and you will be able to drink rivers of lust in the arms of your beloved.
Adieu, mon cher Henri. I hope your illness will be the last with which you will worry my friendship for you, and that I shall soon be able to enjoy your amiable company without having to worry about you."
This is still sounds like more or less good natured big brotherly teasing (for Fritz). The next letter, alas, does not. It's dated on March 6th, 1756.
"My dear Heinrich, no, there is no crueller martyrdom than separation! How to live for a moment without the one you love? (...) Our sighs travel on country roads, and we pour our heart out as messages of our unhappy souls flying away like doves. Oh! Oh! The faithless man has forgotten me! says a certain person. Already a day has passed without a sigh of his has reached me! Surely, he's become faithless! He doesn't love me anymore! No, he doesn't love me anymore! If I had the courage, I'd tell this charming sad person: "That's no more than you deserve, you damned whore! Didn't you want to infect my poor brother with your gonorhoe? Oh! If he listened to me, he'd turn his love towards a worthier object and would send you to hell with all your nice little qualities, of which your STD, your vanity, your lies and your recklessness are but the least.
I do apologize for having committed the sacrilege of having dared to speak so dismissively of your angel's qualities. I do hope you'll forgive me."
Whatever Heinrich replied, Fritz was still not done, and wrote again the next day, March 7th:
"There is little more admirable than your fidelity. Since Pharamon and Rosamunde, Cyrus and Mandone, Pierre de Provence and the beautiful Madlone one hasn't seen the like. If you'll allow me, I'll write a novel titled "Fidelity. Love. Henri and the beautiful Marwitz", and it would be a novel so delicate, so tender, so sentimental and so sensual that it would be instructive to our youth. I would paint the gonorhea-ridden Marwitz in such lovely colors, I'd equip him with all the wit he believes himself to have, and I would above all describe all his coy affectations, as far as I was able to, with which he seems to signal silently to everyone: 'Look at me, am I not a pretty boy? Doesn't everyone have to love me, adore me, worship me? What, you little villain, you resist? You haven't yet put your heart at my feet? As for you, my angel, you'll have to die of love for me.'
Afterwards, I must describe the details of his figure, the charm of his wide shoulders, his supposedly heavy but actually seductive walk - in a word - but I can't continue, for otherwise my novel will be written by someone else. To you, my dear Heinrich, I reccommend to eat a lot, drink a lot and sleep a lot. Stay for some more days in Berlin, and do justice to my tenderness for you."
Again, we don't have Heinrich's reply. Fritz sounds a bit more apologetic and tries to pass it off as fraternal teasing in the last letter relating to this affair, dated March 9th:
"I do hope, my dear Heinrich, that this explanation will mollify you. I haven't said anything detrimental regarding your fidelity. I only listed the famously faithful couples known in history, with whom, incidentally, you can't really compare yourself, for your separation has lasted only ten days so far, and your little sweetheart lives only four miles away from you. Moreover, you can be sure to see him again soon. Pharamon had to wait for ten years before seeing Rosamonde again. I dare say there's a difference. I do hope, dear Heinrich, that this silliness don't rob me of your friendship, and that you will do me more justice in the future. But don't demand me of me that I should take your little romance seriously, and don't sulk over my jokes regarding a matter which wasn't an insult. Adieu, mon cher Henri, and believe me, I didn't hurt you intentionally. "
Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-28 01:34 am (UTC)Speaking of the Trier project, as far as I can tell, it's mostly reposting books from the nineteenth and early twentieth century, and the 76 volumes comprising the Oeuvres and Politische Correspondenz definitely do not include anything published after 1939.
I discovered today that the political correspondence was published 1876-1939, covering everything through April 1782 in 46 volumes (this much I knew), then the project stalled, then volumes 47 and 48 were published in 2003 and 2015, bringing us up to June 1783. Trier only has up through 46, or at least I can't find the most recent two.
Also missing are most of the Fredersdorf letters, apparently, about which more in another comment.
And I'm starting to think Marwitz's first name just hasn't been preserved. But maybe it'll turn up! (Along with a family tree, detailing just *how* intertwined this family is with the Hohenzollern soap opera.)
Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-28 10:30 am (UTC)Now, what is your take on these letters, i.e. what is going on inside Fritz? Because that's not FW roleplay, for starters.
Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-28 05:26 pm (UTC)* As we've seen, he had his occasional moments of emotional insight, e.g. "Don't take that family trip down memory lane in Wusterhausen," or "Mara might be bad news as a husband."
Because that's not FW roleplay, for starters.
Not in the homophobia and attitude toward casual sex, no--haha--but it's very possibly a power play. I'd have a much better idea what was going on if I had any idea of the actual facts. Like, were these letters before or after Marwitz was dismissed and brought back? How active or passive was Marwitz's role in all this--did he prefer Heinrich over Fritz, or what? Did he start out Fritz's and end up Heinrich's or vice versa? Like I said, I've seen it both way in secondary sources. This is why I've been desperate all this time for a reliable accounting of the sober facts as we have them, from which I could try to draw conclusions. Right now, I have nothing but a chaotic muddle of very confusing facts.
The only thing I'm getting out of this episode is speculation based on the timing that I mentioned earlier: Fritz is riding high* on his recent Silesian victory and accompanying acclaim, and maybe a little bit more interested in--if not sex, at least sexually charged encounters--than usual. (I wonder what Fredersdorf thought of all this. I personally read them as queerplatonic, but that's a fanon, not a headcanon--it could just as easily have been a long-term sexual and/or romantic relationship.)
* He was also somewhat chastened, in that it turned out to be much harder than he thought, and like AW, his attitude toward war shifted more toward the negative after having experienced it firsthand, but none of that is incompatible with a general "fuck yeah!" attitude toward winning, especially since the more difficult it was, the more invested he became. And also he had a *lot* to prove.
Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-29 04:10 am (UTC)Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-29 04:18 am (UTC)One day we will solve the sordid mystery of the two brothers and the one Marwitz. (Whatever else it is, it is obviously sordid.)
Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-29 07:12 am (UTC)(Fontane, who did see the obelisk in its original state - due to two WWs, it had to be renovated and today there's only the inscription about AW, with the original inscriptions to the other wronged-by-Fritz military guys on separate plaques, or so the German internet says, I haven't been to Rheinsberg yet myself - transscribes all the inscriptions in his "Rheinsberg" chapter, and there, the only thing mentioned is what I already included in another comment - that Marwitz the quatermaster made a good call at Hochkirch.)
Now, given Heinrich later that year wants to go on the Grand Tour (in a military educational kind of way, ahem) and is refused permission by Fritz who mentions in the letter that Heinrich didn't talk to him for six months and "sulked", I dare say Ziebura is on firmer ground in stating this year was when Heinrich's attitude towards Fritz shifted to "oh, how I hate you, let me count the ways" from whatever it was before. (Harder to say how much or little he ever had hero worship the way teenage AW definitely did.)
Since Lehndorff's diary entry is the only source that outright was Fritz was after Marwitz hismelf, it is of course possible that he was mistaken about this. Otoh, this sentence from the letters, put into the mouth of Marwitz-as-imagined-by-Fritz - "Doesn't everyone have to love me, adore me, worship me? What, you little villain, you resist? You haven't yet put your heart at my feet?" - makes me think Fritz was at the very least attracted and rather wanted to blame the page for that, no matter whether or not the guy actually as much as flirted.
Armchair psychology alert: I doubt he had had much to do with Heinrich while Heinrich was still a child. (Heinrich was four years old when Katte died!) So basically, this younger brother is still a stranger, until the second Silesian war, when they start spending time in each other's proximity. And lo, it turns out that of all his siblings, Heinrich is the one most like him; he's basically a younger self. Simultanously to this, Fritz has his big estrangement period with the sibling he's closest to and grew up with, who treasured that younger self but now in his eyes keeps prioritizing other people over him. And there's the fact that Heinrich, while respectful towards him, isn't prioritizing him,either; Heinrich's beloved sibling of choice is AW. So our ever paranoid anti hero who is now is proving once and all Dad was mistaken in fearing Fritz would party his inheritance away and in regarding him as soft in general now decides to double down on that younger self because of all of the above.
(And then there's always the possibility of pure sexual envy. I mean, however much or little sex drive Fritz had, neither Heinrich nor AW were given to platonic relationships, and did have a sex life. Von Krockow thinks there's a parallel between Fritz wanting to spoil young Heinrich's Marwitz romance, and be it with sarcasm, and much later in the letter after AW's disgrace where Fritz makes things even worse with his "the only thing you're fit to command is a seraglio of court ladies!".) Of course Fritz didn't want the court ladies, and he might not even have wanted Marwitz in particular, but someone was having sex and getting affection here, and it wasn't him.)
Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz
Date: 2019-11-29 04:08 pm (UTC)She does think Fritz maligned Marwitz, but her basis for assuming this is that she identifies Marwitz the page with Marwitz the quatermaster from the Rheinsberg obelisk, and states that surely, Heinrich, decades later after he was well out of love, would not have done Marwitz the honor of being listed with AW and other military guys if he'd been an STD-ridden cheat? But a) the Marwitz family was unfortunately large, and b) it's entirely possible that a guy gets STD and still is an honorable man who years later proves his valor in the 7 Years War.
What? Didn't Seydlitz have an STD? Yes, Wikipedia says syphilis. There is no logical connection between the two!
Since Lehndorff's diary entry is the only source that outright was Fritz was after Marwitz hismelf, it is of course possible that he was mistaken about this. Otoh, this sentence from the letters, put into the mouth of Marwitz-as-imagined-by-Fritz - "Doesn't everyone have to love me, adore me, worship me? What, you little villain, you resist? You haven't yet put your heart at my feet?" - makes me think Fritz was at the very least attracted and rather wanted to blame the page for that, no matter whether or not the guy actually as much as flirted.
Agreed on both counts. And there's a good chance Fritz was attracted but had no interest in acting on the attraction. Which does not mean he wanted the object of his attraction being more attracted to someone else, especially younger self.
Von Krockow thinks there's a parallel between Fritz wanting to spoil young Heinrich's Marwitz romance, and be it with sarcasm, and much later in the letter after AW's disgrace where Fritz makes things even worse with his "the only thing you're fit to command is a seraglio of court ladies!".) Of course Fritz didn't want the court ladies, and he might not even have wanted Marwitz in particular, but someone was having sex and getting affection here, and it wasn't him.)
This, and the part where if any of his friends (see also Fredersdorf, Catt) wanted to get married, he got pretty ticked off about that. He was less awful toward other people's love lives than FW was toward his, but that's about all you can say. He clearly resented the heck out of anyone having more success in that department than he did.
I think my take on FW-Fritz is that Fritz was not broken by his father, as is so often claimed, but emotionally stunted. As in, he was able to hold on to his own sense of self, but did not develop certain kinds of emotional maturity that he might otherwise have. (Which, after scrolling through volume 2 of the Catt memoirs for my map-making work, I see Fritz has now said *twice* to Catt.)
Also, a little digression on Fredersdorf, since he's been on my mind...it's entirely possible that those two had a satisfying, loving romantic relationship with as much sex as Fritz's sex drive was interested in (we will never know how much of that was trauma vs. personality, of course), and Fritz was *still* nasty about other people's relationships. It's not like relationships magically cure PTSD. And it's possible Fredersdorf *still* decided to get married after twenty years together--for one thing, they seem to have been seeing less of each other by that point, due to Fritz's constant travel and Fredersdorf's illnesses.
But the combination of all these factors makes me think that Fritz might not have been getting something he needed on the romantic front. Maybe he was, and it was just deep-seated trauma that meant that nothing would have been enough short of therapy. Maybe he and Fredersdorf had everything Fritz could possibly have wanted, and it still wasn't enough to let him be chill about everyone else's relationship success, because relationships are not therapy.
But given the circumstances under which Fredersdorf and Fritz met--in Küstrin, right after Katte's death, while Fritz was being watched closely and his movements reported to FW...that might not have been the best time to kick off a homosexual/homoromantic relationship with someone you didn't want to lose. Maybe, between Keith and Katte, Fritz had learned to hold back, to protect his significant relationships.
Maybe Fritz spent those twenty some years together consciously or subconsciously longing for something he didn't have, and I'm not talking sex here so much as relationship security. And maybe that's because Fredersdorf wasn't that way inclined, and maybe he was, but Fritz was holding back, or otherwise unable to figure out how to get his emotional needs met in a relationship. Which meant everyone around him who did, was going to suffer his displeasure.
This is wild, wild speculation and fanon rather than headcanon--i.e. one possible option among many. But it's my take on Fritz/Fredersdorf.
mostly Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-12-02 09:21 pm (UTC)Re Fredersdorf: so you think he was holding on to him, hmm, socially/politically and possibly sexually, but not emotionally? Interesting.
It also occurs to me also that there is an aspect of emotional relationship security that he couldn't have by definition with a subordinate who was paid to attend him, as Fredersdorf was. The closest he could get was Wilhelmine, which probably worked as a band-aid, at least, until she died.
Re: mostly Fredersdorf
Date: 2019-12-02 11:26 pm (UTC)Oh, yeah, that's totally normal. I mean, it's possible to come out non-functional or barely functional, with a very weak sense of self, which Fritz didn't (hence my objection to "broken"); and it's possible to come out basically intact, with a lot of wounds and scars, and lacking in certain of the more complex skills that you might have developed with a more solid foundation. And interpersonal skills are among the most complex in the animal world. (From an evolutionary standpoint, a lot of our intelligence as primates is thought to be tied inextricably to the size of our social groups; as in, your ability to grasp calculus is a side effect of your ability to sit through a Thanksgiving dinner with in-laws, and to a certain extent, vice versa. I mean this at the species level and not at the individual level, btw.)
Re Fredersdorf: so you think he was holding on to him, hmm, socially/politically and possibly sexually, but not emotionally? Interesting.
Well, there's what I *think*, which is that there are many possibilities and I have no idea. And then there's how my brain is fleshing things out to achieve some sort of consistent characterization in the absence of evidence.
I mean, there are so many possibilities, among them the following.
1) Conventional close mutual romantic/sexual relationship that didn't solve Fritz's emotional problems enough that he could be mature about other people's relationships.
2) Conventional close mutual romantic/sexual relationship that Fritz couldn't fully get security from, because he was emotionally fucked up.
3) Non-romantic/non-sexual close friendship, full of love and affection, which was all Fritz or Fredersdorf wanted from each other. Fritz remained emotionally fucked up.
4) Non-romantic/non-sexual close friendship, full of love and affection, where one or both of them wanted conventional romance and/or sex, but the fucked-up-ness of the whole situation was such that neither of them ever took the step of risking something that was working for something that might not. And that was related to Fritz's resentment of other people's relationships, including Fredersdorf's eventual marriage.
Are all extremely likely. But the last one is the one that I find myself filling in the blanks with. They meet at a time where they can't do conventional romance/sex. There are serious social differences between them, including but not limited to employer/employee. Fritz is emotionally fucked up in many ways. Fredersdorf comes across to me as quiet and reserved. The fact that he is quiet and reserved probably accounts for a lot of the way the relationship was so stable for so long, but the combination of the complex situation, his personality, and Fritz's trauma may mean that they got into a pattern of affectionate friendship and then just never went into romance/marriage when one or both might have wanted to, consciously or sub-consciously.
Added to that is the question mark around Fredersdorf's sexuality, and how his personality led him to express it. He may not have been participating in the homoerotic banter, or at least only going along with it because it was the Done Thing at Fritz's court; he may not have been having affairs with or even showing interest in other guys; he may have been keeping his sex life in a completely separate sphere; his sexuality may not have been any more clear to Fritz than it is to us, or it may have been clear he was outright straight. (Fritz's letter to him suggesting he take a scout or page with him when he got married means no more to me without context than the Marwitz letters--Fritz could be bitter and nasty where other people's relationships are concerned, and he is far from a reliable source.) In short, in addition to probably not being the type of person who would hit on his boss, Fredersdorf may not have been sending "hitting on me would be welcome" vibes toward Fritz. (I might have more data on this if I 1) had the letters, 2) could read them. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the face of more data.)
And so it's possible Fritz wanted a marriage-level commitment that he wasn't getting, even if he had other forms of emotional closeness such as mutual affection and a confidant he trusted. And maybe even if they were having sex; maybe Fredersdorf was giving off "Sure, you can have sex with me and also other people, and I'm also free to look elsewhere" vibes.
Oh, and when I say "vibes," I do mean vibes--you know how Fritz and Wilhelmine don't always communicate when it would really be in their best interests to? Good communication is one of those advanced skills that requires emotional maturity and is very vulnerable to trauma. (The relationship between talking and trauma is also extremely complex, and it gets a lot of coverage in the trauma literature. Tangentially, so is the relationship between trauma and memory: one thing that horrifies me is that if it's true that Katte was executed in sight of Fritz's window per FW's orders--and a lot of accounts say he was deliberately executed around the corner and out of sight--it remains entirely possible that Fritz witnessed the execution and didn't lose consciousness until afterward, and that the event simply didn't get recorded in his memory, such that he thought he fainted right before it happened. I prefer to think that it happened around the corner, and that he fainted before he could even hear anything. It remains possible, of course, that he fainted after he heard it but didn't record the memory of that either.) And in a situation as complex and involving as much emotional vulnerability as this, Fritz wanting marriage-level commitment and reassurance might not translate to him communicating "I want marriage-level commitment and reassurance" in a way that would be both understood as such and likely to elicit the desired response.
It also occurs to me also that there is an aspect of emotional relationship security that he couldn't have by definition with a subordinate who was paid to attend him, as Fredersdorf was.
I would say that that it's obviously not ideal, but it was a lot more common in previous centuries, both because the odds of you falling in love with someone outside your class were greater the closer you were to the top of the pyramid, and because meeting someone you couldn't have a public relationship with and then hiring them so you had an excuse to be together was a fairly common workaround. The resulting power imbalance is obviously going to make things tricky, but I feel like a lot of couples managed to make it work, and if Fritz had been less messed up, he might have been able to get that kind of security from Fredersdorf. (And maybe he did, and their relationship just ran its course like any other relationship would. Twenty years is a long time.)
I do agree the relationship with Wilhelmine was critical for both of them. And probably more than a band-aid; it was probably structurally important in those formative years, when they were both coming out basically intact.
Crackfic
Date: 2019-12-03 12:36 am (UTC)Hell, Joseph likes to travel. Maybe Fritz can visit England with his lover. (Doubt he'd want to, but maybe Chill New Fritz is different.)
* Joseph disagrees, but Fritz says, "You and what army?" to the whole Emperor point.
"The one at Leuthen? Or Hohenfriedberg?"
"The one at Hochkirch," Joseph counters.
"Burkersdorf?"
"Hasn't happened yet. The secret summit is 1761. Your irrational fanboy is still twiddling his thumbs."
"I was trying to decide whether to say Bavarian Succession, but...okay. We'll call it a draw."
Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-26 03:01 pm (UTC)So, the 7 Years war is long over, we're in the 1770s.
Gustav: I'm on my Grand Tour, and have just heard my old man has kicked it. Might as well say to hi to Uncle Fritz, Most Famous Monarch Of Europe while I'm on my way back. I've got plans, people! Visiting Paris just illustrated to me how much absolute monarchy rocks.
Fritz to Heinrich: Ulrike's kid is coming. Mind dropping by? "For I believe the two of us are not too many to preach restraint to him, or at least quench his initial fire."
Heinrich: Okay. Gustav, you don't know how rare an event this is, but the two of us agree on something, and that something is that a coup d'etat in Sweden IS A REALLY BAD IDEA.
Fritz: Which I'm not willing to finance. Ever.
Gustav: Whatever. Bye, Uncles!
Ulrike: I am womanfully ignoring your dastardly letter about Henricus Minor, Fritz, if you finance a state visit for me. For some reason, newly crowned Gustav thinks he doesn't need my advice anymore and calls me "interfering" and "arrogant".
Heinrich: Come on, invite Ulrike. Who knows whether we'll ever see her again otherwise?
Fritz: Fine. Ulrike, you're invited.
Ulrike: *arrives with one of her daughters, gets state visit reception in Potsdam; her sister Charlotte comes from Braunschweig, which means all three of the surviving sisters as well as all surviving brothers are together at the same place at the same time*
Ulrike: Boys, I've just got a wonderful idea! Why don't we make a family trip to darling old Wusterhausen, where dear old Dad used to spend the summer holidays with us! I missed that place so much in Sweden, I can't tell you.
Fritz: You mean the house of horrors where I spent some of the worst times of my life, only made bearable by Wihelmine WHO IS NO LONGER THERE! Nope. Not coming.
Heinrich: Come on. "We will remember every corner where we were scolded and sometimes hit. But even the sufferings one remembers from one's childhood cause joy in one's advanced years."
Fritz: To you, maybe. NOT COMING.
Heinrich: Have it your way. Girls, Ferdinand, off we go.
Hohenzollern Sisters: Wow. That place brings memories. Dad was - well. But you know, Mom was worse.
Hohenzollern Brothers: WTF? Dad was way worse than Mom!
Family quarrel: *ensues*
(No really, they have a giant sibling face off about which of their parents was worse. In the end, Ulrike and Charlotte as well as Ferdinand give up, whereas Heinrich and Amalie still keep going, with Heinrich insisting FW was worst and Amalie insisting SD was worst until they swear never to talk to each other again.)
Fritz: Had a good time in dear old Wusterhausen, did we?
Heinrich: Shut up.
Ulrike: So, Heinrich, I'm hearing wonders about Rheinsberg. Why don't I visit your place next?
Heinrich: By all means. I have these wonderful musicians, including Mara the very hot Cellist, my current boyfriend. Party time for my royal sister! Fritz, mind if I borrow Gertrud Elisabeth Schmeling? Ulrike deserves to hear the best soprano of our time while she's visiting me.
Fritz: You know....
Heinrich: You're not getting thrifty, are you?
Fritz: Sure, you can have her.
Reinsberg visit by Ulrike with lots of Rokoko parties: *ensues*
Mara/Schmeling love affair: *ensues*
Heinrich: I'm not sure how that was a plot by Fritz, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Ah well. Mara was getting expensive. At least now La Schmeling can pay his bills.
Fritz: Ulrike, the six months I promised to finance your state visit for are almost over. Just saying.
Ulrike: Heinrich, you've got to help me with my kid. That was so touching, you defending Mom to Amalie. I'm just like her! There is no end to a mother's love!
Heinrich: Dear Nephew Gustav, be nice to your mother. "Forget the many little misunderstandings that have caused your quarrel. (...) The Queen loves you with all her heart. She talks of you with tears in her eyes, and since she loves you so much, her vulnerability is the greatest."
Gustav: Fine. Mom, you can come home. Incidentally - I've just successfully reintroduced absolute monarchy to Sweden. Next thing on my to do list: get an heir!
Ulrike: GUSTAV, I AM PROUD OF YOU. Okay, brothers, sisters, lovely to have seen you again. Farewell! Off I go to Sweden.
Fritz: Did our nephew just...
Heinrich: He did. Brace yourself, I'm still agreeing with you that this is not a good idea.
Fritz: In that spirit of rare fraternal unity, please go visit Catherine in St. Petersburg. Because I don't think she'll like an all powerful Swedish king next door.
Heinrich: *takes off to visit Catherine*
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-28 01:08 am (UTC)Wow. I just...can't.
Heinrich: Come on. "We will remember every corner where we were scolded and sometimes hit. But even the sufferings one remembers from one's childhood cause joy in one's advanced years."
Fritz: To you, maybe. NOT COMING.
And in a stunning role reversal, Fritz displays the MOST emotional intelligence of the (surviving) Hohenzollern kids! Or maybe just the most traumatized-at-Wusterhausen. Either way. Fritz, sometimes I despair of you, but sometimes you make me so proud.
The rest of you, OMG, we said family therapy and hugs and music, not family poking of old wounds! HOW did you think this was a good idea?? Heinrich! You're supposed to be smarter than this!
Hohenzollern Sisters: Wow. That place brings memories. Dad was - well. But you know, Mom was worse.
Hohenzollern Brothers: WTF? Dad was way worse than Mom!
Guys, *we* figured out the gender-based difference in your upbringing just from reading about your wacko upbringing three centuries later! Surely maybe you could get a clue and realize that different kids can have different experiences with the same parents? Like, you know how upset you all are that Fritz treated Wilhelmine better than the rest of you? Maybe Mom and Dad had their favorites too?
Also, this is all supporting my guess that the worse Dad treated someone the better Mom treated them, and vice versa. Hence Fritz and his "Saint Mom" experience to go with, "Oh, yeah, Dad totally had to be talked out of executing me, and that's *after* the times he had to be dragged away from trying to strangle me with a cord around my neck, which caused me to run away in the first place. Heinrich, you say you want to reminisce about the times he 'sometimes' hit you? Have fun with that. Amalie, you say ONE FUCKING WORD about Dear Departed Mom and that's IT."
(It occurs to me that Amalie is the unmarried one who kind of lives with or at least near Fritz, and is most financially dependent on him. I kind of have to wonder if she was so free with her opinions about Mom around him, or if the details of this fight got back to him, and if so if he had anything to say to her.)
Next thing on my to do list: get an heir!
I love how you threw that in there! This is definitely the show where material from earlier episodes pays off in in-jokes in later episodes. :D
Fritz: In that spirit of rare fraternal unity, please go visit Catherine in St. Petersburg. Because I don't think she'll like an all powerful Swedish king next door.
Wikipedia tells me that in fact she did not, and she and Gustav were at war between 1788-1790, so starting two years after Fritz died (Heinrich was alive and well for another decade and more). Also that Gustav was assassinated in 1792. Can't say I'm surprised by either of these facts.
Look. Gustav. If your uncles manage to agree on something, maybe you should sit up and pay attention.
Also, this:
Gustav: I have received an anonymous tip that there is a plan to assassinate me at the next masked ball. In keeping with the excellent judgment I've displayed so far, how about I go to the ball, hang out in an opera box overlooking the dancing floor as a prime shooting target, and dare anyone to kill me.
Gustav in the box: Bring it, bitches!
Ten minutes later...
Gustav: Well, if they were going to shoot me, they would have shot me by now. Let's go down and enjoy the party. Seems perfectly safe.
Gustav at the ball: *gets shot*
To add insult to injury, it wasn't even a fatal shot in and of itself, but 18th century medicine happened, and he died two weeks later when the wound became infected. *facepalm*
Oh, Gustav.
Also, adding to the whole eerie parallel with the Ides of March, there was a literal soothsayer involved, at least tangentially. Gustav had visited one a few years earlier, she had said something that could be interpreted as a prediction of this plot, and she was interrogated after the assassination. Apparently she was found innocent, but it's a bit eerie.
Gustav, I don't know if you share your uncle's opinions about Shakespeare, but surely you can at least read your Plutarch? But then I guess Sweden would not be the Dallas of Rococo Scandinavia. And your aunts and uncles and mother are keeping the bar high for Hohenzollern Crazy. That family tradition is a lot to live up to.
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-28 04:09 pm (UTC)Re: Amalie, my guess is she probably was more discreet around Big Bro most of the time regarding her feelings about their mother. Of course, it‘s worth considering that as the sole unmarried sister and the second youngest child overall (Ferdinand being the youngest), she was simultanously the daughter who lived with SD the longest (as she didn‘t marry), and was least exposed to FW (due to being a daughter as well as a child when he died).
(The strict gender divide in the „who was worst?“ fight confirms all my theories, too.)
Incidentally, the letters from Fritz to Wilhelmine from the early 1730s that I‘ve heard contain a criticism of their mother, but it‘s the only one I‘ve heard/read from him. To wit: „Our most gracious sovereign and queen are competing in ill temper, and one cannot make one happy without agrieving the other.“ (I‘m tempted to assume Wilhelmine‘s reaction to reading this was „this is not news!“
Gustav‘s comment on this summary of his demise: And that‘s why I‘m the only one in this music loving family whom an entire Verdi opera has been written about. No, Uncle Fritz, Don Carlo doesn‘t count. Un Ballo di Mascera rules! As patron and builder of Stockholm‘s opera, I approve.
Cahn, do link Mildred to some appropriate arias or at least your reviews. :)
But seriously, if Fritz and Heinrich agree on something, and go to some effort to doubletag their nephew in order to talk sense into him, it really is better to listen.
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-28 04:47 pm (UTC)That definitely makes sense.
(I‘m tempted to assume Wilhelmine‘s reaction to reading this was „this is not news!“
"Welcome to my life!"
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-28 05:00 pm (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 06:12 am (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:26 pm (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-30 04:38 pm (UTC)ETA: incidentally, if anyone is wondering, Amalie and Heinrich made up, they did see each other (and talked to each other) again. Also, by now I know Amalie had an argument with SD just a day before SD's death which ended with SD refusing to let Amalie kiss her hand when parting (which apparantly was how you said goodbye to Mom even in old age) and did not talk to her, so, really bad feelings.
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-30 05:01 pm (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-12-02 09:25 pm (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-12-02 10:16 pm (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-12-02 09:25 pm (UTC)I was. So thank you for letting me know :)
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:20 am (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:19 am (UTC)Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:24 am (UTC)So I guess if you're not going to read the cautionary tales, Gustav, you can yourself become the cautionary tale for opera lovers? I can see the value in having the cautionary tale encoded in several different genres, so as to reach the widest audience possible. :P
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:28 am (UTC)Basically, the plot is actually the history you have delineated in this thread, except that Verdi added a love triangle with a best friend (who is obviously my favorite! :D <3 ), who ends up joining the conspirators.
Also, Gustav in the opera is (apparently at least somewhat intentionally) written as totally bi, although I didn't clue into that when I first watched it (the direction didn't really make a thing of it).
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 06:10 am (UTC)(These days, the opera is produced in both the rewritten and the original draft version.)
(This problem kept happening to Verdi. It's also why Rigoletto, which is based on Victor Hugo's novella Le Roi S'Amuse, got transfered to Mantua, with King Francis I. ending up as the anomymous Duke of Mantua. (Who doesn't die, but there is an assassination attempt. Like I said - tetchy censorship was tetchy.)
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:15 am (UTC)(I know I say that a lot, but there are a lot of best things OKAY)
Fritz to Heinrich: Ulrike's kid is coming. Mind dropping by? "For I believe the two of us are not too many to preach restraint to him, or at least quench his initial fire."
Heinrich: Okay. Gustav, you don't know how rare an event this is, but the two of us agree on something, and that something is that a coup d'etat in Sweden IS A REALLY BAD IDEA.
HAHAHAHA (I think one of my narrative kinks is people who don't ever agree, agreeing because something really IS that good or bad of an idea...)
(No really, they have a giant sibling face off about which of their parents was worse. In the end, Ulrike and Charlotte as well as Ferdinand give up, whereas Heinrich and Amalie still keep going, with Heinrich insisting FW was worst and Amalie insisting SD was worst until they swear never to talk to each other again.)
WOW. I'm just... a combination of rubbernecking and facepalming, here.
(and if Wilhelmine and Fritz had been there I feel like they might have pointed out that they could both be the worst to different people?? I feel like W and F kind of understood that??)
Fritz: Had a good time in dear old Wusterhausen, did we?
LOL FOREVER FRITZ
Next thing on my to do list: get an heir!
hee!
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 12:53 pm (UTC)Hm, yes and no. I think that depends on when in their lives they were thinking about their parents? As long as both are still alive, it's worth noting Fritz always in his letters gives a kind of weather report to Bayreuth, i.e. "the Queen has gone somewhat cold on you" or "The Queen loves you", ditto for FW, and there is the one remark I quoted earlier to Mildred re: "it's impossible to make one happy without aggrieving the other" from 1733 or 1734. But there is absolutely nothing from him in any book I've read to equal Wilhelmine's most bitter statement - not given to Fritz - about her mother, that SD loved none of her children and was only using them as means to an end. Not that this was always Wilhelmine's consistent opinion, either; the lengthier characterisation she gives of SD in the memoirs does describe her with positive qualities as well bad ones.
They're more consistent in their FW opinion, both in the sense of regarding him as a menace to their lives and in being simultanously in awe of him and on some level never stopping to want him to be proud of them. But at least for Fritz, I would say post FW's death he has a "no one gets to diss my father but me" attitude. And Wilhelmine might kill off her father's avatar in Argenore after making that character sing about how he's destroyed his son and daughter, she might secretely write her memoirs painting her father as an abusive bastard - but she also was capable of writing "I am my father's daughter, I can face anything" early in the 7 Years War, i.e. retrospectively classifying those years of abuse as something she's currently drawing strength from in her miserable state.
So how would they have reacted had they been present in Wusterhausen? I suspect Wilhelmine would have tried to shut down the discussion early on, knowing nothing good could come of it, and she wouldn't have given her own opinion, but if Fritz afterwards, outside of everyone's earshot, had said something along the lines of "can you believe Amalie maligning Mom like that?", she might have replied "Well, Mom was a good mother...to you."
(Further tidbit from the Heinrich biography: SD visits Rheinsberg for the first time about a year or two after Heinrich has got it from Fritz as a main residence. Heinrich throws her a party much as AW has done in Oranienburg. SD: "How beautiful everything is here! How wonderfully well, with so much taste your brother has made this place his own. He truly is a marvel.")
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-11-29 04:23 pm (UTC)This. This is exactly Fritz post-FW's death. And Fritz goes overboard trying to be fair to FW, praising him to the skies as king and downplaying the abuse (while still acknowledging it).
I suspect Wilhelmine would have tried to shut down the discussion early on, knowing nothing good could come of it, and she wouldn't have given her own opinion, but if Fritz afterwards, outside of everyone's earshot, had said something along the lines of "can you believe Amalie maligning Mom like that?", she might have replied "Well, Mom was a good mother...to you."
That seems plausible to me.
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-12-02 09:24 pm (UTC)Huh. I don't have context (are these in the memoirs? I stopped reading before that point) but is it possible that she's talking about FW's character (I mean, he seems to have been at least as stubborn as Fritz!) rather than the abuse in particular?
...but yeah, that all makes sense. (And Wilhelmine does seem like the most self-aware and peacemaking of them, in general.)
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-12-03 12:52 am (UTC)is it possible that she's talking about FW's character (I mean, he seems to have been at least as stubborn as Fritz!) rather than the abuse in particular
I absolutely parsed this as FW's rather impressive and extremely Fritz-like endurance in the face of crippling pain/illness and other hardships, though I suppose it's also possible she saw her abusive childhood as the fire that tempered the steel? But yes, context might make it clear one way or the other.
Re: Hohenzollern Family Reunion
Date: 2019-12-03 08:18 am (UTC)Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern: The Wives' Tale
Date: 2019-12-01 08:08 am (UTC)(BTW, considering the Heinrich bio was Eva Ziebura's first book on matters Hohenzollern and this is one of her latest, with nearly fifteen years between the time of publication, it's interesting to see her getting more critical on her fave Heinrich (re: his wife only, though) while also also presenting Fritz as not quite as much of a jerk, well, other than to his wife and brothers.)
Since we have a lot repeating names (several Wilhelmines and Amalies), I've decided to come up with a nickname system to avoid confusion.
Wilhelmine - is our Margravine of Bayreuth
Mina - is Heinrich's wife, otherwise known as Princess Wilhelmine of Hessen-Kassel
Wilhelmine Minor - is AW's daughter Wilhelmine, favored niece of Fritz
Amalie - is the unmarried sister, music lover and sharp tongued mother critisizer
Louise - is Louise Amalie, AW's wife, also EC's sister
Ferdinand - youngest Hohenzollern brother
Ferd - EC's and Louise's brother, not dying in one of Fritz' battles
Elisabeth Christine can stay EC, as only her aunt, MT's mother is called the same, and that lady does not show up in this tale.
So: EC and her sister Louise, the two Braunschweig-Bevern girls, have one big disadvantage from the start when marrying into this family, well, other than their grooms not wanting them in general - they don't have the cultural education that SD provided for her daughters, and they don't have wit - or to put it French, as the brothers did - ésprit. They also either stuttered or, as Ziebura speculates based on the description, lisped, meaning people had trouble understanding them at first. And both were pretty shy when arriving in the crazy dysfunctional clan of doom. (Mina, however, will later prove that you can be beautiful, witty, well educated and a hit in society and still get your life trainwrecked by marrying a Hohenzollern.) Fritz' unflattering description of his fiancee in letters to all and sunder, not just Wilhelmine, are well known.
EC, who notices she's seen as a disappointment, knocks herself out to improve. She studies French and music. She intercedes for Fritz with her terrifying father-in-law, who likes her (modest, silent in public - just what a woman should be). She gets him money loans from brother Ferd. And for the Rheinsberg years, this all seems to pay off. They get along. He's nice, even calls her "sweet" in a letter not adressed to Dad. Then FW dies, Fritz becomes king, and immediately makes it clear how things will be from now on. That he does not want her as part of his life in any way he can possibly avoid. This, incidentally, doesn't just mean homoscial life with the boys, it includes family outings with other female Hohenzollerns present - when he's visiting SD and Amalie, either together or apart. When it's Carnival time in Berlin EC has no idea whether or not she's supposed to participate until less than a day before getting short notice that yes, she's supposed to show up at event x and reprsent with him. Otoh, when there is a big state event in Sanssouci and Fritz belatedly realises he needs some ladies present, does he ask his wife? He does not. He really does not want her there. Instead, he quickly drags his sister and a few other ladies from Berlin and has them brought back there late at night. Writes a lamenting EC to brother Ferd, when her husband and those of his siblings currently around are off to one a non-Wusterhausen Hohenzollern country residence: "They're all gone, and I'm sitting around here like a prisoner."
So she's possibly the only person who is really really happy when AW marries her sister Louise. (Since she won't be alone anymore and will have an ally at court who loves her.) That marriage had been arranged in FW's time but happened post-Fritz ascending to the throne. Like I said in an earlier post, AW was, at best, indifferent. They had sex, they had kids, but zilch interaction beyond that. Louise during AW's life time is hardly noticed by anyone, she's regarded as utterly bland and dull and just trying to please everyone as best she can. After falling in love with Sophie von Pannwitz, AW tries to get permission from his brother to divorce her, but no dice. (She is, though, the one case which actually gets a surprisingly happy ending... of sorts... later.) In the last year of his life, post disgrace, AW, proving that he's not immune from "when miserable,kick downwards" syndrome so popular in his family, and changes his will stating that his wife is to be pensioned of but the kids are to be raised by his sister-in-law. Given his wife is actually pregnant at the time of his death, this comes across as stunningly cold and cruel, so it's a lucky thing Fritz decides to ignore that part of the will, but more about this later.)
Then there's Mina. That her marriage came to be counts as one instance where Ziebura argues Fritz was actually being more a jerk than FW, because at least the enforced Fritz/EC marriage had a dynastic reason, as Fritz was the crown prince. Otoh, the only point of Heinrich's marriage was to put him through the same thing Fritz had been put through, and never mind the unlucky bride. There was zero dynastic reason - AW at that point had already sired two male Hohenzollern kids, and between his brothers and those nephews, the royal line was definitely secure.
So Mina arrives in Berlin, she's, as mentioned, beautiful, witty, charming, well educated, and as opposed to poor dull EC and Louise, she's a hit with the royal family and everyone else from the start. SD adores her (this never happened with her sisters-in-law). AW and Ferdinand both flirt intensely with her, Fritz approves of her and is complimentary in letters about her. Heinrich, at that point, is at least polite and it looks like they can have an arrangement that works. (He's also okay with his brothers flirting with her, since this provides at least the platonic romantic games he has no interest in playing.) She's nicknamed "the fairy" - "die Fee" - which in German and French, btw has no slang connotations with homosexuality. (Considering that AW beyond the courtly flirtations keeps up an intense correspondance with her - which Heinrich knows about and is asked for permission for -, they probably would have worked out splendidly as a couple, btw. When he already knew he was dying, the last time he saw her in Berlin before going to Oranienburg to die, she was joking, so he didn't have the heart to tell her how unwell he was, and pretended. And then he went to die in Oranienburg with Amalie at his side, because if there's one thing this generation of Hohenzollern were consistent about, it's that in the end, you are always closer to your siblings than to anyone else.) So do we have a tolerable marriage here with Mina the Fairy and Heinrich? We do not. Because the death of AW and the Seven-Years-War change all.
Far from grieving AW together with her, both Ferdinand and Heinrich completely alter their behaviour towards Mina. Ferdinand doesn't just stop the flirting, he stops any friendly interaction whatsoever and is completely cold. Heinrich returns form the war with PtSD, a massive chip on his shoulder, and unhealed grief. He doesn't take it out on servants (he's great to those) or subjects in general (championing anyone from occupied Saxons to soldiers without a pension is a thing), but he does take it out on his unwanted wife in incredible petty ways. He changes her staff, dismissing the people she liked and trusted with people of his choice she doesn't even know before he inflicts them on her, and bear in mind the two have separate households,so there was no reason why he should care. He keeps withholding her budget so she has to humiliate herself and ask for the money repeatedly. And then, when she's finally allowed at Rheinsberg again, you get a soop opera style intrigue because one of Heinrich's boyfriends is about to be replaced by another (the other being Kaphengst), and not taking it well. Whereupon the about to be dumped boyfriend concludes that if he does Heinrich a favor, Heinrich won't dump him. So what does he do? Compromises Mina in public with a fake embrace/attempted kiss. There are other ladies present to testify she did not want this, but Heinrich does take the excuse to banish his wife from his presence once and all and reduce her budget some more. (The old boyfriend gets still dumped.) If anyone in Berlin receives Heinrich, his wife must never ever be there.
At the end of all this, the previously spirited, cheerful Mina is now so cowed and downbeaten that she doesn't permit herself to critisze anyone in even the slightest manner and practically asks for permission to breathe. (She'll survive Heinrich, who at least in his will leaves her a decent sum and states it their "situation" wasn't her fault, but goes blind and deaf in her old age, and will be left in Berlin once the great nieces and great nephews get out of town to escape Napoleon. That's FW3 and the famous Queen Louise, btw.)
Meanwhile, previous wallpaper Louise experiences a stunning reversal of roles. Because Fritz, possibly because this is the one person in connection with AW who didn't love AW and thus doesn't grieve for him as a person, just is impacted by his death in her role as (former) crown princess, decides to atone for his treatment of AW by being consistently kind to his widow. Also, it dawns to everyone that in this very dysfunctional clan, Louise is someone who is just... nice. She always has time for everyone. She doesn't hold a grudge. If you ask her to mediate between quarrelling family members - say, Heinrich and Amalie re: the "who was worst" argument - she will. She'll comfort you if you're in distress. The very sharp tongued Amalie when writing a "we all suck here, be warned" letter to future FW2's second wife to be, makes an exception for Louise who she says is "an angel". This combination of regard by the King and everyone liking her means Louise the widow florishes. She voices opinions in public. And lo, she has a mind of her own no one previously noticed. She plays hostess at receptions far more than her sister EC does. As mentioned, Fritz keeps that altered last will from her; on the contrary, other than unfortunate future FW2, she gets to raise her kids. Whenever she wants something, Fritz has time for her. As she doesn't respond to this by gloating but by spreading the kindness to other family members as best she can, her credit with everyone rises even more. (She also gets Fritz to be a bit nicer to EC in his old age; Lehndorff notes that unprecedented in 24 years, the King spends two hours in conversation with the Queen, alone!!!)
She still goes through heartbreak - that baby she was pregnant with when AW died, another son, doesn't surivee the year, and of course much later Henricus Minor dies. But she ends up hands down as the one of the three unwanted wives faring best in her later years.
Though EC also gets some royal regard after Fritz has died, because as it turns out, nephew FW2, in tune of doing the opposite of what his uncle did, goes out of his way to be nice to her, invites her to concerts, receptions, visits her regularly (which encourages others to visit, as this is how things go at a court), even offers her Sanssouci if she wants it. (She doesn't, as, she states, Fritz hadn't wanted her there when he was alive, she would not go against his wishes now he's dead.) EC in her old age throws herself into supporting charities and ends up at peace. Lehndorff once notes down that she loves visiting the zoo, and how strange it is that such a minor thing should give a Queen such pleasure.
And thus ends the warning tale of why you should not ever marry a Hohenzollern. At least not a male one. Sources for all this, because Ziebura is a laudable author in always providing them: Mina's diary, Louise's letters to brother Ferd, EC's letters to brother Ferd, and of course all the Hohenzollern sibling correspondence with each other.
Re: Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern: The Wives' Tale
Date: 2019-12-02 08:32 pm (UTC)"Every happy family is alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Most of those ways were explored by a Hohenzollern at some point."
Maybe when you're a Hohenzollern woman getting married to a Hohenzollern, you know what you're getting yourself in for, and it turns out better
because incest is the least of your problems?Re: Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern: The Wives' Tale
Date: 2019-12-02 09:43 pm (UTC)Hohenzollerns WHY DO YOU SUCK SO MUCH
I feel so bad for EC, as I always do :( I didn't know she studied French and music for him -- somehow that just makes my heart hurt :( I'm glad she got her sister there, though!
And I feel even worse for Mina. That's horrible -- at least EC a) got left alone, even if she didn't get any respect b) had her sister around c) got to enjoy her widowhood :P
The story of Louise makes me (relatively) happy, though. Not least, yay for Hohenzollerns actually treating a nice person right! WHY COULDN'T YOU DO THAT WITH MINA. ahem.
Re: Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern: The Wives' Tale
Date: 2019-12-03 08:15 am (UTC)My own guess is they were each other's might-have-been. (While Sophie von Pannwitz, whom AW had asked Fritz permission to divorce his wife for, was a far more clear cut "one who got away".) BTW, Ziebura isn't sure if Mina ever got that diamond ring, because surely once she was financial difficulties she'd have sold it, but we simply don't know one way or the other.
(Re: financial difficulties - given Heinrich was only rarely in Berlin and surrounding area during the war during the Seven Years War and was the most important general in same other than Fritz, he has a sort of excuse for not always getting his wife her allowance, except he did always find the money for his boyfriends when they were in trouble. Post-war, he was simply being petty.)
Now, given the entire family knew that Mina might have been a virgin as far as Heinrich was concerned, you'd think that they would have understood even if they assumed the thing with her and AW had gone beyond harmless flirtation due to the "I want Mina to raise my kids and have the ring I was always wearing" bit from the altered Last Will. But we're talking 18th century double standards here. And it would definitely make sense of Ferdinand doing a 180% as well. (Stopping flirting would have made sense not least because he was married now, even though their flirting had been harmless, but not completely dumping her as a friend, too. Poor Mina literally writes I thought he was my friend in her journals. She basically went from being SD's favourite daughter-in-law, the most admired woman at the court, with an empty marriage, yes, but one very intense relationship with a man who had high regard with her and another friendly flirtatious one with her other brother-in-law, to "well, you can come to the next salon, fine, but only if Heinrich isn't there."
Re: Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern: The Wives' Tale
Date: 2019-12-05 05:14 pm (UTC)Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-02 08:34 am (UTC)Bits of interest I haven't already mentioned:
Heinrich was chief Prussian negotiatior in the Partitioning of Poland. He actually visited Catherine repeatedly, in St. Petersburg and elswhere, and they hit it off famously beyond negotiating; she made so much of him that people were confused because Heinrich being so obviously gay, he was the one man she showed such fondness to who never ever was suspected of having an affair with her. Heinrich was very into Catherine as well. When she died, he wore mourning for her, writing to brother Ferdinand: I am wearing (mourning) in memory of the friendship she's shown towards me, and of her genius. For losing it is a loss to the whole world. (...) She had supreme qualities. I can never forget her attention, her amiability and the power of her mind. What remains now is very small, compared to her. Of course, from a political point of view her death is a stroke of luck for us.
(In fact, in between negotiations, this had happened: Catherine to Fritz: Mind if I keep your brother as my personal satrap and make him King of Wallachia? Fritz: YES. NO HEINRICH FOR YOU.)
Other Catherine visits by Heinrich happened apropos the Swedes, as briefly mentioned at the tail of the Hohenzollern reunion saga. And you might remember she bought his paintings so he had cash to pay his boyfriend Kaphengst's debts.
Speaking of Heinrich's boyfriends, he seems to have had a thing for rough trade, with a few notable exceptions, such as the French Emigré count who was his last lover, and Mara who still fell into the charismatic money waster category most of the others did.
(Meanwhile, Lehndorff is going: "I'm right here! Would totally go for a more permanent thing! Dammit!What does he see in Krackow/Kaphengst/Tauentzien/ "50 others so far" that he doesn't see in me?)
Heinrch had the same "German literature? No such thing!" attitude Fritz did, and since he lived a while longer, his theatre at Rheinsberg ended up as one of the few places in the German states where French plays - in French - were still produced. During his first visit to Paris, he saw the 50th performance of "Figaro's Wedding", Beaumarchais' original play, not later Mozart opera, of course, and thought it hilarious. And
In another strange moment of deja vu, this happened:
Mirabeau: comes to Prussia during Fritz' last year and stays on for another year.
Heinrich: Such a wonderful example of a witty French intellectual! Let's spend time together!
Mirabeau: *publishes trashy tell all about the Prussian court, old and new, with particular highlights being "So, the supposedly "great" Fritz was an emo weakling, his successor is a dumb playboy run by his dick, and as for Prince Heinrich, he's an incompetent old homo who can't get over himself! Let me tell you all the sex tales I've heard!"
....yeah. Fritz, in one of those moments of emotional self awareness that make him such an interesting enigma, did refer to Heinrich as "l'autre moi-meme", "my other self" on more than one occasion. (He also called him "my brother Narcissus".) This was definitely the hateship of Heinrich's life, though. And one he turned out to be addicted to, because when, after yet another of their arguments post (not much of a)War of Bavarian Succession, he managed to keep up the "not talking to you" attitude for a record one and a half years, and in theory should have been happy at Rheinsberg, with a tolerable boyfriend, country at peace and no Fritz around... he discovered he was bored to tears. And lo:
Heinrich: *starts dropping hints in letters to mutual relations and aquaintances that he's got time at his hands*
Fritz: So, Amalie may have told me you're currently somewhat idle. Want to become weekly pen pals again, with the occasional bickering visit to Potsdam?
Heinrich: YES GOD YES. You bastard.
*weekly correspondance with lengthy letters about philosophy, politics, literature and bickering*: Resumes.
He was, of course, still planning for that obelisk. The last time Heinrich saw Fritz alive was in January 1786. Upon his return, he wrote to brother Ferdinand: If you go to Potsdam next week, you can see for yourself how the old man is doing. I await with resignation the inevitable. Amalie has assured me she would like to follow him into death. I can't say the same for myself. I don't know whether we'll be bedded on roses once he's gone, but one thing I know, there will be fewer thorns than during the last 46 years.
(Amalie survived Fritz for only a year. The big Mom argument aside, she got on very well with Heinrich, who when moving into Rheinsberg had several rooms furbished as her permanent guest rooms, and kept shopping for her whenever he was somewhere interesting, whether it was Meißen - where he bought her porcellan figurines - or Paris, or St. Petersburg. She also had a better relationship with Fritz than she does in Mein name ist Bach, who not only paid her debts on a regular basis but did actively seek out her company in their later years. Other than his personnel, she was one of the last people to see him alive.)
Back to Fritz' last months.
Heinrich to Ferdinand: "I know exactly that I won't be able to cry over the death of an evil man who was like the sword of Damocles over my entire life."
Fritz: *writes deeply sad letter*
Heinrich: I don't - fuck it. Want me to come to Berlin?
Fritz: Nope, not up to our usual sessions. Maybe next month. But I'm sending you some fruits, I hear you have a cold yourself.
Heinrich to Ferdinand: This is a cunning plan to keep me from feeling relieved once he kicks it. But it won't work. DAMMIT.
Fritz dies, the funeral happens, and Heinrich assumes that since he's gotten on pretty well with Son of Favourite Brother so far, he'll be asked for advice. He's even prepared several memoranda on various political aspects.
FW2: Don't get me wrong, Uncle Heinrich, I really like you. But. Ahem. I sort of want to start a new regime here.
Heinrich: With you there.
FW2: Without the most prominent reminder of the old regime I can imagine. I mean, you were his...
Heinrich: Don't say it.
FW2: Other self.
Heinrich: Fine. I'm visiting Paris again. Vive la France!
This turns out his last Paris visit, as he barely misses the storming of the Bastille when he leaves. It's still a good visit, except this happens:
Tauentzien (boyfriend du jour, son of Fritzian general of the same name): Guess what, the Comedie Francaise plays a German drama in French translation! Let's go!
Heinrich: Why would I want to watch a German drama?
Tauentzien: Come in, it'll be fun.
*German drama starring one Frederick the Great, with the actor personally coached by Tauentzien in Fritz mannerisms and voice intonation*: Ensues
Heinrich: *sits frozen in his seat for the rest of the play, but does not run out*
During Fritz' lifetime, Heinrich had advocated for easing up on the Austrians and maybe even an alliance, but that was when MT and Joseph were on the throne. Leopold ruled only two years after Joseph's death, and then his son Franz took back all reforms and became the most reactionary Emperor since a century at least. Simultanously, the French revolution happens and happens and happens. Heinrich keeps writing memoranda, though unlike his letters to Fritz, who always argued back, these get rarely replies beyond "there, there".
Heinrich: Don't join the alliance against revolutionary France, nephew. Prussia and France should ally against reactionary Austria, now they've given up on reforms altogether; we are the champions of the enlightnment! We should not fighting France, and I'm not just talking as a Francophile here!
FW2: Yeah, no. But you do do you in Rheinsberg, uncle.
Prussian forces along with other forces: keep suffering humiliating defeats against revolutionary France
Napoleon: *starts to get noticed*
Heinrich: Nephew, please read my memos for once, "he'll make our Fritz look like an amateur"!
Heinrich: *keeps getting ignored as advisor, with only literary or family matters talked about*
Heinrich by now was too old to scuttle between Rheinsberg and Berlin, and with great regret decided to to settle closer to Berlin for his main residence. (He didn't want to move permanently into town.) Now, in his last will, FW1 had specified that if Fritz died without an heir and was succeeded by AW or AW's heirs, Wusterhausen should go to Heinrich. Which meant:)
Heinrich: Dear Ferdinand, have moved into Wusterhausen after all, put up AW's portrait in the room we used to share as kids and pretend the last twelve years never happened. Have installed a guest room for you, too.
(No, really. He moved in in March 1799. I have preserved as much of the old days as I could. I believe I can forget here what happened in the last twelve years, and I don't want to think of what will happen in the fuiture. I have put up the portrait of our mother next to my bed, and the portrait of our brother Wilhelm at the opposite wall where I can see it always. I indulge in illusions about the past and push away the present. One can't burden the mind too much with matters one cannot change.)
Ferdiand: *counts* Twelve years? Counting back from March 1799? You mean, when...
Heinrich: Don't you dare.
Moving into Wusterhausen did mean he got more family visits from the younger relations and could go and visit Berlin without that much effort. Sadly, Ziebura doesn't say, or it's not known, what the Comte de La Roche-Aymon, aka Heinrich's last boyfriend, made of exchanging Rheinsberg for Wusterhausen and AW's portrait on the wall. In 1801, when he was sick enough to know he die, Heinrich returned to Rheinsberg, though. He'd methodically organized his own funeral and tomb, and unlike Fritze's, his last instructions were obeyed.
Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-02 08:25 pm (UTC)Fritz called Heinrich his other self??!!* Heinrich picked back up a correspondence with him because he needed someone to bicker with?? Heinrich moved to Wusterhausen in 1799 so he could forget about the last twelve years??!!
??!!!???!!!???!!!
Woooow, this just keeps getting better. I guess you need your other-self hateship in your life so you can have someone who will at least argue back. FW2 really *was* committed to doing things differently. :P I mean, I think a key part of the whole Fritz/Voltaire addiction was the fact that both of them would at least argue back.
* This just goes to show that having self-awareness does not equal knowing what to do about it, which is consistent with my experiences with other highly intelligent, self-aware people with severe trauma, even in the twenty-first century.
Also, if the correspondence resumption was post Bavarian Succession, then Voltaire had recently died, and Fritz must have been feeling a void where there was once a hateship. :P More seriously, Maria Antonia died around this time as well, and he cut off Catt, and I can imagine he was desperate for someone to talk to as well.
FW2: Without the most prominent reminder of the old regime I can imagine. I mean, you were his...
Heinrich: Don't say it.
FW2: Other self.
Ferdiand: *counts* Twelve years? Counting back from March 1799? You mean, when...
Heinrich: Don't you dare.
OMG, this is Fritz/Voltaire levels of hateshipping, wow. This may even put them to shame. Wow wow wow.
Heinrich: YES GOD YES. You bastard.
I may have choked on my drink here. You seriously do the best write-ups.
Heinrich: Nephew, please read my memos for once, "he'll make our Fritz look like an amateur"!
He kinda did, yeah. I can't remember if I've mentioned that the epic rap battle perfectly and concisely encapsulates the fact that Alexander, like Napoleon, was a specialist, while Fritz was a polymath.
I brought foes to their knees in Phoenicia/breezed through Gaza to Giza/had the Balkans, Persia, Syria, Iraq, and Pakistan in my expansion pack
I've got creative talents and battle malice/hard as steel on the field, genteel in the palace
Silesia. He conquered Silesia. He couldn't even hold onto Bohemia or Saxony. But he did keep it all from falling apart at his death. And I think everyone agrees his poetry was mediocre, his flute-playing excellent on slower tempos but wobblier on faster tempos, his compositions decent, and so on, such that he wasn't the best at any one thing, but he was good enough at a wide range of things to make people sit up and pay attention. Algarotti and I can relate, Fritz. *hugs*
*German drama starring one Frederick the Great, with the actor personally coached by Tauentzien in Fritz mannerisms and voice intonation*: Ensues
Heinrich: *sits frozen in his seat for the rest of the play, but does not run out*
What. Why would you do that to your boyfriend? Do you know him at ALL? I'm with Lehndorff, Heinrich, you need better boyfriends. I'm glad the setting sun cast a final beam of warming light on you, because seriously. Hohenzollern relationships are fucked up. Other self indeed.
She also had a better relationship with Fritz than she does in Mein name ist Bach
Oh, thank goodness. I mean, I knew it wasn't perfect, but that movie had me worried about them.
He'd methodically organized his own funeral and tomb, and unlike Fritze's, his last instructions were obeyed.
Oh, good. Is that like a first in this family? (ETA: rhetorical question)
Trenck, or: My Sister's Possible Boyfriend
Date: 2019-12-03 06:17 am (UTC)Because this has nothing to do with Heinrich, but is a story of its own, I'm replying to it separately. Aside from the fact Amalie - who had some serious musical skills in various instruments and, like Big Brother and Big Sister, composed - did have a certified (musical) passion for all things Bach (Johann Sebastian and his sons), there is one other reason (I guess) why the scriptwriter included her the way he didi, one big question mark hanging around the relationship of the younger Amalie and Fritz, and that's the Mysterious Trenck Affair (tm).
Important to know apart in this very confusing tale:
Friedrich von der Trenck (aka Prussian Trenck): future bestselling memoir writer, definitely an influence on Dumas (in Count of Monte Christo) and Mark Twain (in Tom Sawyer & Huckleberry Finn) who name check him both; this is a subtle literary pop quiz for you, as it'll make you guess what Prussian Trenck will be most famous for
Franz von der Trenck (aka Austrian Trenck): his cousin, famous for his temper, derring-do, courageous soldiering but sadly also cruelty (both towards civilians and his own men) which will be his doom
Prussian Trenck: Let me give you a short version of my famously bestselling three volume memoirs, currently at Gutenberg in a one volume edition in German at least; the editor dares to say my Rokoko feelings and rants are too much for the modern reader, so nothing was lost when severely cutting them down, and a decent adventure novel gained. Bah.
Anyway: I was born to a noble Prussian family with Austrian relations. In 1740, when Fritz came on the throne, I joined his army. By 1744, I was his batman. He totally had a really warm fatherly regard for me -
(Self: When he was 32? If you say so...)
- and despite the later turn of events, I spent the first bit of my memoirs raving about how charismatic Fritz was, how much it rocked serving under him. When his sister Ulrike got married, I was part of the festivities, and there I met a An Unmarried Lady Of The Highest Rank whom I, being a gentleman, will not identify by name until volume 3 gets published, but we're talking Highest Family here, wink, nudge. I scored! So basically, life was sweet. Then the Second Silesian War started. Totally not the fault of Fritz this time. I swear, he only wanted to protect the poor, helpless Prince Elector of Bavaria, who had cruelly lost his dukedom and hometown when becoming Emperor - I mean, who could have predicted MT would do that, amirite?
Speaking of Austrians: So, I had this cousin. Austrian Trenck was an early supporter of MT's and distinguished himself in her service by fighting for her from Day 1 in 1740, like I distinguished myself in the service of Fritz and his family. Shut up, this is not a double entendre. We had never met, but we heard from another. And one time, when our horses got captured and Fritz nearly was captured, my cousin sent the horses back to me. So there was talk among the chaps. And then I got this letter, which I thought was from my cousin but which actually now I think was a forgery by some bastard who wanted to do me in, asking me switch sides. Which of course I refused! I mean, why would I go to the Austrians? I had a sweet deal as Fritz' batman and secret lover of A Certain High Ranking Lady! However. I was slandered. By more anonymous letters claiming I was spying for the Austrians. And woe, but Fritz listened! There may or may not have been also something about me and Very High Ranking Lady, I'm too discreet to say. Anyway, Fritz, ignoring my loyal service so far, cruelly locked me up at the fortress Glatz. He even had me sit on my gravestone! I escaped a year later. Whereto, faithful reader? Well, naturally to Vienna. Not because I was a spy. Because I had heard my cousin Austrian Trenck had made me his universal heir, and was in severe trouble himself. Naturally, I wanted to help!
My cousin Austrian Trenck really was in trouble. Several of his men as well as some civilians had accused him of war crimes, and he'd been condemned to death. MT's brother-in-law, under whom he had served, reminded her she owed him, and so she allowed a retrial. Which, however, didn't exonorate him, because brave as he was, he actually was guilty as charged. Since this was apparant in the later part of the trial, aka when I arrived in Vienna, she told him that if he pled guilty, she'd commute his sentence out of gratitude and mercy, he refused and insisted on being completely cleared, and the trial went on. So he wasn't in a good mind frame, is what I'm saying, and he turned out to be a bastard. I, a naive innocent, believed it was cousinly feeling that made him make me his heir, but really, it was because he knew Fritz would never believe I was innocent if I accepted the heritage! Also, one condition for the heritage was that I had to join Austrian service and swear not to work for Prussia again. Prussia, my beloved home country, where my beloved King and High Ranking Lady were! Naturally, I refused. At first.
So anyway, my cousin: got condemned to death again, MT commuted the sentence to life long imprisonment, my cousin took sick and died. Leaving me his heir, as promised. That was a legal nightmare, I can tell you. All part of the evil plan. The part where I had to go from one clerk to the next sounds positively out of Kafka, which fits since Kafka was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So VERY relluctantly, I joined Austrian service. Went to Rusisa for a while, to the court of the Czarina Elizabeth where I scored again with another High Ranking Lady I Will Not Name. Some years later, 1753, I had to travel to Danzig on some family business. And would you believe it, but Fritz still held a grudge! I got arrested and imprisoned again. Which is where the worst part of my life started. Locked up in a cell in Magdeburg, and after my first escape attempt there, even chained to a wall.
(Self: Okay, Trenck, that does sound awful.)
This went on until the end of the Seven-Years-War, when MT personally asked for my release as part of the peace negotiations, and got it. So here I was, free. Went to Vienna again, where I thought MT & Co. would be overwhelmingly grateful and shower me with riches for all my sufferings. I did get an audience with her, and but would you believe it, her idea of showering me with riches was suggesting a rich widow for me to marry! ME! As if I'd marry some Austrian broad two years older than me who wasn't even a virgin. I told her that was a no go, and she was all, have it your way, and that, dear readers, was the end of Habsburg gratitude. After all I had gone through while being UNFAIRLY suspected of spying for them!
I had enough and went to Aachen, aka Aix-La-Chapelle, where I married the mayor's daughter and opened a trade with Hungarian wine. I also started publishing these memoirs. When Fritz died, his successor FW2 granted me a pension - I don't care what anyone says, you're cool with me, FW2! - , and I met my First Mysterious Lady again whom I can now reveal in the last volume was totally Princess Amalie, because sadly, she's now gone as well. We had a tearful reunion just before she died, though.
Not covered in my memoirs for obvious reasons is my ending. I went to Revolutionary Paris. Some claim to spy for the Austrians, but as if, I mean, I never did, and I had enough of Royals, I thought I'd fit right in the place where they had just gotten rid of theirs. Now, some may claim that given Prussia and Austria, allied for the first time, were in a state of war with Revolutionary France it was a bad idea for me to go there, but hey! Did anything so far make you think I have common sense? Naturally, once I was there, I started to name drop. And got arrested. I mean, I TOLD them that I was completely in sympathy with their goals, that I was a victim of both Hohenzollerns and Habsburgs and knew how much royalty sucks, but I might have mentioned that MT personally asked for my release from Prussian imprisonment as part of an explanation as to why I wasn't suffering in Prussian prison anymore. So they were all, what, MT, as in, mother of MA the Austrian bitch we just beheaded? Off with your head!
I got beheaded just ten days before Robespierre did. I guess I was a drama guy to the finish. Now, for SOME reason, historians were a bit sceptical about some of my claims. Especially the one where I scored with Amalie. But in 2008, they found a letter from me to her, written in 1787, the year of her death, which "at least indicates great familiarity", which is their way of phrasing I totally scored! Now, how my treatment at the hands of her brother made her feel about her brother is anyone's guess, but seriously, I could never figure that family out. I mean, if Fritz hadn't been listening to these ABSURD claims I was an Austrian spy and responsible for his near capture, I could have gone on being his batman and scoring with his youngest sister forever!
Re: Trenck, or: My Sister's Possible Boyfriend
Date: 2019-12-03 06:29 am (UTC)At the very least, it's one of the cases where Fritz gets finger wagging from historians for locking someone up with so little transparency, no trial, no formal charges, etc. Bad enlightened monarch!
But in 2008, they found a letter from me to her, written in 1787, the year of her death, which "at least indicates great familiarity", which is their way of phrasing I totally scored!
Ahahahaha, love it.
I could never figure that family out.
Join the club, Trenck. Every day, I wake up to new developments from this family to stare at in disbelief.
Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-03 07:36 am (UTC)I know. You really couldn't make these people up. Or, to use a phrase coined by our other famous dyfunctional and intense brothers, the brothers Mann, "das brüderliche Welterlebnis". (Thanks, Tommy!)
This just goes to show that having self-awareness does not equal knowing what to do about it, which is consistent with my experiences with other highly intelligent, self-aware people with severe trauma, even in the twenty-first century.
Well, Fritz knew what to do about it, alright, it's just that his method of choice was to vary Larkin's famous "they fuck you up, your Mum and Dad, they may not mean to, but they do" into "and then you'll fuck up your brother, too". This isn't what Larkin meant by concluding that poem with "don't have any kids yourself", Fritz!
I would say at least Heinrich didn't hand down the trauma to the next generation, but taking it (at least somewhat) out on his wife isn't much better, so. Other self indeed.
OMG, this is Fritz/Voltaire levels of hateshipping, wow. This may even put them to shame. Wow wow wow
Well, it has that extra special family element. Also Fritz never did anything as serious to Voltaire as force him to marry, break the person Voltaire loves most who dies in his mind because of that, nor did he, conversely, form Voltaire's ideas about a great many things from literature to how to treat your unwanted wife. (Though I guess Voltaire did form several of Fritz' ideas by virtue of being his favourite writer.)
Silesia. He conquered Silesia. He couldn't even hold onto Bohemia or Saxony.
Which reminds me: as has been pointed out by biographers, Heinrich in his partition of Poland negotiations aquired more territory for Prussia diplomatically and thus without a single loss of (Prussian) life than Fritz managed in three Silesian wars. (I mean, it sucked for the Poles, and caused no end of trouble in European history, long term wise, but from a Prussian pov back then, this was awesome.) You can bet Heinrich pointed that out, too. Big Brother wasn't amused.
What. Why would you do that to your boyfriend?
My question exactly, which is why I had to share it. I assume T. thought Heinrich would consider it funny? Or maybe flattering, because the audience, when it noticed Heinrich was present, cheered both him and the Fritz actor with lots of Vive Frederic! Vive le frère du grand Frederic! calls. How that made Heinrich feel, I'll leave to your imagination.
That particular boyfriend also had managed the following saga:
T: So, I got my girlfriend, which yes, I had on the side, pregnant. We need money to marry. Pretty please?
H: ....Okay.
T's father and Fritz: WTF? Prussian nobles aren't allowed to marry without permission of the King! (See also: Marwitz, female edition.)
H: *keeps young T & pregnant wife from being punished, points out done is done and also there's an heir on the way, manages to achieve reconcilation*
Young Mrs. T: dies in childbirth, along with the baby
T: Woe! Comfort me!
H: *does so*
Anyway, Heinrich's romantic/sexual track record is the one thing which makes me at least consider the possibility Fritz wasn't acting purely out of spite in the four Marwitz (male) letters.
Oh, and not Ziebura, but older male historians going "why the very het Catherine and the very gay Heinrich went along so well is a complete mystery to us" clearly haven't heard of Elizabeth Taylor, which was the association I immediately had when reading about Heinrich's visits in Russia.
ETA: Meant to include this - when Fritz gave Heinrich permission to go to Paris the first time, it wasn't meant as a holiday, though of course both of them knew it would be a #lifegoal accomplished - Paris! -; Heinrich was actually there to try and woo the French away from their Austrian alliance, now that MT was dead.
(MA: come on. I know I'm not Mom, but I would never, ever, have let that happen! Joseph was counting on me!)
So, while they hash out final instructions and policies via letters, Fritz says, re: the French: "But let them come to you, don't fling yourself in their arms at the first sign of interest, the way you usually do."
Yep. That fraternal bitching is alive and well. (You can bet Fritz would have flung himself into proverbial French arms if he'd ever made it to Paris.)
Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-04 12:04 am (UTC)What I meant was that he wanted to not have the anger management issues, and he repeatedly said he kept trying to get them under control, but repeatedly failed, because he'd been fucked up in childhood. And he *wanted* better quality relationships, including with various members of his family (not including EC), and couldn't always figure out how. The people I know and know of also want to get better, but even with medication and decades of therapy don't always manage it. Reprogramming your brain after the formative years is *hard*.
You can bet Heinrich pointed that out, too. Big Brother wasn't amused.
Yep, and nope.
Anyway, Heinrich's romantic/sexual track record is the one thing which makes me at least consider the possibility Fritz wasn't acting purely out of spite in the four Marwitz (male) letters.
Oh, yeah. That was definitely on my mind when I proposed that maybe Fritz was maybe trying to save him from himself (in the most unlikely-to-succeed possible way) and then had to give up when it didn't succeed (shocker).
clearly haven't heard of Elizabeth Taylor, which was the association I immediately had when reading about Heinrich's visits in Russia.
For those of us who've heard of her but live under a rock and don't know anything about her, would you care to elaborate? Look, knowing far more about the eighteenth century than the twentieth goes all the way back to childhood with me. :P ETA: See also these anecdotes.
Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-04 07:38 am (UTC)Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-02 10:05 pm (UTC)heeee! but also this is super sweet <3
I can never forget her attention, her amiability and the power of her mind. What remains now is very small, compared to her. Of course, from a political point of view her death is a stroke of luck for us.
HAHAHAHA that is both moving and rather funny.
Catherine to Fritz: Mind if I keep your brother as my personal satrap and make him King of Wallachia? Fritz: YES. NO HEINRICH FOR YOU.
LOL!
Beaumarchais told Heinrich he wanted to work together with a composer working at Joseph's court, to wit: Salieri!
I am dying. That is just too much. (And glad that this... didn't happen? or did it? well, glad anyway that it also became a Mozart opera, because that Beaumarchais-daPonte-Mozart combination/collaboration is in my opinion one of the great things about Western civilization.
...And somewhere, Shaffer!Salieri is shaking his fist in his grave.)
Heinrich: YES GOD YES. You bastard.
Okay, this? This is endearing. <3333333333333 to both Fritz and Heinrich
Actually your whole writeup is definitely giving me "yes, your fave is totally cool" vibes, so I guess Ziebura succeeded <3 :D
Ferdiand: *counts* Twelve years? Counting back from March 1799? You mean, when...
Me: *counts*
Me: checks wikipedia, because super bad at dates
Me: Oh Heinrich. <33333333
OK... tell me more about Lehndorff? So I know from your previous posts that he was EC's chamberlain and Heinrich's friend-with-benefits and had a diary... did he write about Heinrich in his diary??
Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-03 12:14 am (UTC)Me: checks wikipedia, because super bad at dates
Me: Oh Heinrich. <33333333
March 1799 - August 17, 1786 = 12 years, 6 months, some days. Just saying.
OK... tell me more about Lehndorff? So I know from your previous posts that he was EC's chamberlain and Heinrich's friend-with-benefits and had a diary... did he write about Heinrich in his diary??
Extensively, and it's even online...in German...in scanned pages...in Fraktur. *facepalm* Actually, the font is a lot less bad than most such examples, but omfg. Also, I can get copy-pastable OCRed text views, but only a couple sentences at a time without paying. I was looking him up recently for the Fredersdorf quotes.
Anyway, I'll give you what I can from various bios.
"His love life can be followed in some detail through the diaries of Count Lehndorff, who was himself besotted with the prince, as the following sample reveals:
"1 May 1753 the most miserable day of my life, because Prince Henry is leaving; I go to see him, my heart full of grief. I hurry to my dear prince, what a sorrowful meeting! I leave him without a word, I see tears pouring down his face, the dearest in the world, what a man to be worshipped, what a loss for me, I swear eternal devotion. I return to my home in sorrow and cannot sleep, I write my prince a letter.
"2 May I get a letter from him which makes me burst into tears. I jump on my horse and ride to meet him, but when I see his carriage approaching I get off and hide, otherwise my heart would have burst. I did not think that one person could be so devoted to another; in pagan times they would have made him a God.
"The sight of Prince Henry in tight riding breeches and looking 'as beautiful as an angel' was enough to send Lehndorff into erotic rapture."
Also, Lehndorff fell in love with an English aristocrat, Sir. Charles Hotham, and wanted to join him in England. But as a Prussian, he had to ask the King's permission to leave the country. Fritz said no. "I cry, and I cry, and I cry," Lehndorff writes. No reason given for the refusal, but I think we all know the real reason is: "If *I* can't go to England with my lover, *nobody* gets to go to England with their lover."
The Maras: *sigh*
Lehndorff also records a masked party in January 1754 where AW dressed up as a woman as part of some general royal hijinks (with heavy anti-Semitic overtones that Lehndorff and all the Hohenzollern brothers thought was hilarious, and which I will refrain from recounting), and also later in the month, when a Countess Bentick more seriously dressed as a man, "in the forlorn hope that her male attire would win her the attention of the exclusively homosexual Prince Henry." No dice, Countess.
After Heinrich's forced marriage, Lehndorff wrote to him: 'Monseigneur, the king has built a palace for you with admirable arrangements: one may spend one’s life there without ever setting one's eyes on one's wife.'
I should add that on this occasion, Bielfeld referred to Heinrich as a "Potsdamite," saying that even though his wife was of more than mortal beauty, it would do her no good. Oh, those Potsdamites. :P
If I find an accessible translation, I'll let you know, but I doubt there is one, since even my biographers are using the German original, and they usually tell you about translations where they can.
Also, I just want to say that today the OCR + auto Google Translate function in Chrome seem to be behaving themselves, but last time I checked, Chrome persisted in translating "Dreissig Jahre am Hofe Friedrichs des Grossen" as "Thirty Years at the Pants of Frederick the Great," through what I suspect was a confusion between 'f' and old-fashioned 's', leading to "Dreissig Jahre am Hose Friedrichs des Grossen."
It made me laugh so much. So close but yet so far! It's "Thirty Years in the Pants of Frederick the Great's Other Self," Google!
Re: Oh Brother! More impressions of the Heinrich bio
Date: 2019-12-03 07:42 am (UTC)German wiki, btw, mentions, as did Ziebura, that Lehndorf was married (twice) while all this was going on. Not of course unusual for someone in this era even when not being a Royal. He was also really bitter about Fritz never promoting him, realising chamberlain to EC was a dead-end job in that it paid well but really wasn't how you distinguished yourself and got some juicy or glorious promotion, and eventually retiring to the countryside.
"The sight of Prince Henry in tight riding breeches and looking 'as beautiful as an angel' was enough to send Lehndorff into erotic rapture."
ETA: This also proves how far gone Lehndorff must have been, because even when young, Heinrich was never more than avarage looking, and when older, usually people found him downright ugly when first meeting him (Most of them were however subsequently wowed by his charm, which he must have had in considerable degree if he tried - very useful in a diplomat -, so a typical description of Heinrich from French, Russian and Swedes - he visited Ulrike in Stockholm, too - goes "huh, at first I thought, this little dry wrinkly man is the hero of the 7 Years War, but then he opened his mouth and wow! So smart! So charming! So witty! Swoon!"
Re: small, he was literally smaller than the not tall Fritz and both his other brothers. There's a famous anecdote of Heinrich motivating the guys from his first serious command by jumping into the muddy river and saying "men, if I can cross this depite it going to my waist, then so can you!"
Lehndorff
Date: 2019-12-03 11:12 pm (UTC)Oh, noes! Oh, you're right, my link says "US access only." And I can only download one page at a time, even though it says it's public domain. Oh, well. Presumably when you get home, you can get your hands on a copy? Your write-ups are always awesome (thank you for Trenck, btw), and Lehndorff seems like he's full of the good stuff.
[ETA: I have asked a friend, but the friend may also not have access. We'll see.]
He was also really bitter about Fritz never promoting him, realising chamberlain to EC was a dead-end job in that it paid well but really wasn't how you distinguished yourself and got some juicy or glorious promotion, and eventually retiring to the countryside.
Yep, I almost quoted this but left it out because it wasn't about Heinrich: "It must have occurred to him that his senior position in the queen’s household was not calculated to endear him to Frederick."
This also proves how far gone Lehndorff must have been
Yes, I was going to say that, but I forgot! Thank you! Yes, Heinrich was no prize physically. Hey, he was Fritz's other self: of course he was short, far from good-looking, and charismatic when he wanted to be. :P
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2019-12-04 11:42 pm (UTC)DMed you.
Salieri and Beaumarchais
Date: 2019-12-03 08:24 am (UTC)