cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

All Yuletide requests are out!

Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!

-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)

Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!

-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French

-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...

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From:

selenak

And yet those of us who think he might actually have been interested in men are the "gossipy sensationalists,"

Ha, yes. That's a very good summary of the contortions historians went through to come up wit any other explanation than "gay". And not just historians. I mentioned that indignant comment to the online interview with a modern Fritz biographer where the commenter goes "no OLD FRITZ WAS NOT GAY AND NOR WERE ANY OF HIS BROTHERS ALL AUSTRIAN SLANDER SPREAD BY VOLTAIRE NO PRUSSIAN ROYAL WAS EVER GAY SO THERE!"

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yep, it's all walks of life. I saw the same in Youtube comments to Mein Name ist Bach. Which doesn't even make it explicit!

From:

selenak

Which doesn't even make it explicit!

It does, though? Fritz in his voice over/inner monologue while watching the deserter being punished early in the movie refers to Katte as "my lover", there is no room for ambiguity in the German term used.

There is a liiiiitttle ambiguity when he asks fictional G. to stay after the role play in that we don't see them do anything non-platonic, but the cut is to sister Amalie in bed with Friedemann Bach the morning after, which certainly draws a direct comparison visually. And still later, when Fritz catches Amalie and Friedemann having sex in the stables with Amalie dressed as a man, after she's left, the none-too-subtext of the short conversation he has with Friedemann certainly read to me:

Fritz *circling Friedemann and invading his space like none's business*: You totally went for the wrong sibling there, Son of Bach. Shame. We could have had something.

Friedemann: Nah. Not because you're a man, or because you're a royal, though I snark about royals throughout this film. Because you're too much of a jerk.

Fritz: OUT!

(Johann Sebastian later picks up his wayward son on the road.)

Anyway, these later occurances could maybe explained by desperate Denialists in a non-gay way, but "lover" is "lover" is "lover", and once he's called Katte that in his thoughts, which he does before any of the other scenes happen, that settles that, imo.

ETA: Okay, here's a direct transcription of the scene after Fritz told Amalie to leave, because it's even gayer than I remembered:

A *while leaving*: Coward. *note: it's not clear whether she means Fritz or Friedemann, who has earlier refused to run away with her, but Fritz clearly takes it to mean himself as what he says is a reply to her*

Fritz *speaking in her departing direction*: A Prussian Princess is an item in the market that's supposed to bring in money. The market sets the price and not an organist from the provinces.

*walks towards a horse, with his back turned to Friedemann, but now adressing him*

Fritz: Friedemann Bach. Your music is higher valued than mine. Congratulations.

*cut to Friedemann, listening*

Fritz: Nethertheless, whether you like it or not -

*he turns around, now looking at Friedemann, starting to walk towards him with the following words*

Fritz: Your music is no match for that of your father, and it never will be.

(*note: Fritz is using knowledge gained from his last conversation with J.B. Bach here who when Fritz confessed his own father issues confided in turn he's worried about what he's been doing to his sons by dooming them to follow him in the same profession*)

*now starts the circling around Friedemann closer and closer walk*

I envy you. To inherit such musical know how without having to lift a finger! You just bend over and pull it out of the stores.

*with his next word, he switches the mode of adress from "Sie" to "Du" while stopping toe to toe, face to face to Friedemann*

You can be doubly grateful to your father. Without him, this adventure would get you the punishment for deserters - 300 lashes for three days. One survives that. But somewhat... weakened.

*with the last word, he starts circling Friedemann again*

Friedemann: I'm grateful.

*Fritz stops, standing still, with his back to Friedemann, but still standing very close*

Friedemann: To my father.

*now Friedemann takes a step closer to Fritz, lowering his voice*

Friedemann: But above all to your majesty.

Fritz: Friedemann Bach. Bold in music and reckless in love. Free.

*he turns around towards Friedemann*

Fritz: A freedom we could have shared.

*moves closer to Friedemann, definitely close enough to kiss*

Fritz: in music and... who knows.

Friedemann: You honor me, your majesty. *now he's doing the circling around Fritz walk, and once he's completed the circle, he puts his hands on Fritz' cheeks and cradles his face; Fritz just stares at him, wide-eyed*

Friedemann *still speaking softly and close enough to kiss*: They say that you play your flute after your battles, surrounded by corpses.

* abruptly pulls his hands back and smiles; yep, Friedemann is that kind of a bastard in this movie*

Fritz *stunned*: You will leave us. Quickly and without delay.

Friedemann: *strolls away, while fictional servant G. arrives*

Son of ETA: Fritz catches them at sex at 1:20:46, if you want to see that scene only.

Edited Date: 2019-11-09 10:33 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

refers to Katte as "my lover", there is no room for ambiguity in the German term used

Ah, I totally missed that (for obvious reasons). The comment I remember was along the lines of, "What was all that body language with Friedemann about? Were they trying to imply Fritz was gay? SLANDER AND LIBEL!"

Well, good job, movie, then! (And thank goodness I have a German speaker to tell me when the German is unambiguous.) And wow, commenters are desperate.

From:

selenak

Okay, the punishment-of-deserter/inner monologue scene (complete with intercuts to Küstrin) starts at 23:51, and I've transcribed it for you, as the English subtitles sometimes offer only a shortened and even differently flavored version of the German original. For example, when he addresses dead FW as "Vater und Herr", the subtitles only say "father", instead of "Father and Lord/Master" (can't decide between the two possible translations for "Herr" in this context, so I'm giving you both):

Yes, most merciful King, father and lord. I, Friedrich, Crown Prince of Prussia, must be present at the execution of my lover, Lieutenant Katte.

(German word is "Liebhaber", which, as I said, is unambigous, as opposed to "Freund" ("Friend"). It's also an interesting choice on the part of the script since it's the active noun as opposed to "Geliebter" (Beloved). No idea whether I'm overthinking this due to fandom or whether the scriptwriter wants to imply Katte topped. ;) )

Lieutenant Katte is to be die via beheading at dawn.

(Subtitles "Is to be beheaded at dawn" which sounds more fluent and less stiff, but the implication is that Fritz is reciting the execution order here from memory and that certainly was written in clumsy bureaucratic German.)

Katte and I have not offended against honour, Father and Lord/Master. My life is not so dear to me -

(Subtitle version: "I do not cling to life")

- becoming King is not so dear to me -

(Subtitle version: "I do not want to become King")

...he doesn't finish that last sentence, it's incomplete in German, just keeps staring into the rain while the deserter is getting punished and we cut to the Bachs having their own family drama chez Emmanuel.

Anyway, there is a significant difference in the last two lines between subtitle and original, wouldn't you say? The subtitles completely lose the implication that Fritz is mentally composing a plea for mercy for Katte to FW, as the obvious end of that sentence is "- not as dear to me as Katte's life". And there's a significant difference in characterisation between not wanting to become King at all, or wanting to give up something he basically aspires to and sees as his right if it would spare his lover.

he comment I remember was along the lines of, "What was all that body language with Friedemann about? Were they trying to imply Fritz was gay? SLANDER AND LIBEL!"

Well, you know, clearly, when he called Katte his lover, he was speaking metaphorically before. And he'd never, ever, fancy someone one of his siblings has slept with. Clearly. Not Fritz! Slander!

Edited Date: 2019-11-10 09:14 am (UTC)

From:

cahn

Argh, SUBTITLES. (Opera subtitles always bug me, for the operas I know well enough to somewhat-follow in the language.) Yeah, that does read very differently in those lines -- as you say, the characterization is rather different.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thank you so much for the native speaker interpretation! That makes such a difference.

Well, you know, clearly, when he called Katte his lover, he was speaking metaphorically before.

Well, the thing is, he might have been. The subtitles say "lover", but I don't trust subtitles (for the very reasons you outlined!), and since he immediately goes on to say "we have not sinned," I originally concluded "lover" was a poor translation for "beloved" or something similar. I assume the commenter in question, watching a subtitled version and commenting in English, was also restricted to interpreting the subtitles (through a homophobic lens, to boot).

Knowing that it was an unambiguous "lover" in the original, and that you translated it as "offended" rather than "sinned", does make it more explicitly gay, yes, and then all the Friedemann stuff has to be interpreted in that light.

Speaking of ambiguities, I've read that FW's "Did you [verb] Katte or did he [verb] you?" to Fritz is ambiguous as to whether he meant "seduce [sexually]" or "corrupt [morally, into desertion]" in German. Both are somewhat ambiguous in English, but "seduce" is getting more and more confined to the sexual sense, and "corrupt" to a financial sense.

And he'd never, ever, fancy someone one of his siblings has slept with. Clearly. Not Fritz! Slander!

Not our Fritz!

From:

selenak

that you translated it as "offended" rather than "sinned"

*nods* The word "sin" either as verb or noun does not show up, and we have it - "sündigen". "Offended against honor" was the most literal translation - less literally, I could have translated it as "we did not act dishonorably". But I'd never translate it as "we haven't sinned", because the religious implication is utterly missing in the original. Also, I would say that especially in a military context and with this particular character as the one having the inner monologue, the original to me implies he's not denying Katte having been his lover, he's denying they did anything he regards as dishonorable.

I've read that FW's "Did you [verb] Katte or did he [verb] you?" to Fritz is ambiguous as to whether he meant "seduce [sexually]" or "corrupt [morally, into desertion]" in German.

Is the verb "verführen"? In which case, yes, it can mean either. As we're talking linguistics: would FW have necessarily be thinking in German - his version of German has a lot of French-derived words in it and some excentric grammar, so it might be worth considering how the sentence would have been phrased in French.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

the original to me implies he's not denying Katte having been his lover, he's denying they did anything he regards as dishonorable.

Makes sense. Thanks so much!

Is the verb "verführen"?

I have no idea, I've only seen it in English translation. I was hoping you were familiar with the quote (because it's common enough that I've run into it in like 3 separate sources) in the original. I'll see if I can track it down.

While we're here getting clarification on the German vs. the subtitles (you are the best!), what about "I breathe in you" from the roleplay? I've been curious about the nuances of that since I saw it.

From:

selenak

what about "I breathe in you" from the roleplay?

In the original he says "Du bist ich. Ich lebe in dir", which I'd translate as "You are me. I live in you", not "I breathe in you" - "leben" = "live", not "breathe" (which would be "atmen"), no need to get more poetical, and since Fritz is rp Katte, not himself, adressing Goltz as Fritz, him saying "I live in you" certainly is more poignant.

(BTW, he's using "Du" not "Sie", but then he's also adressing Goltz as Goltz with "Du" earlier. Otoh Goltz after his initial refusal switching from the formal mode to adress to "Du" signals he's accepted the rp.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

since Fritz is rp Katte, not himself, adressing Goltz as Fritz, him saying "I live in you" certainly is more poignant.

Oh, damn. Yes, that's way more powerful. Wow, these subtitles are just not doing justice. (Although I did like the poesy--the impact is harder with "live," given all the context. I mean, that's just a different way of phrasing the last line of "Pulvis et Umbra.")

he's using "Du" not "Sie"

Oh, interesting, so another fictional example of Fritz/Katte Du-ing each other.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It might be easier for you to get your hands on this the next time you're in a German library than for me here, so the citation I found is Friedrich der Grosse. Ein biografisches Porträt, Wolfgang Burgdorf, p. 83.

From:

selenak

Noted! I'll check whether my local library has it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I've just run across a citation of page 30 in Burgdorf for the Marwitz episode. I don't know how much detail it has, but I'm thinking we need to track this book down!

From:

selenak

Book is tracked down. The Bavarian state library has it, as well as Ziebura's Heinrich bio. She also wrote a group one for Elisabeth Christine as well as AW's and Heinrich's wives - the trio of unwanted women, so to speak, so I ordered that as well while I was at it. I should have it in two days.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, wow, a gold mine! Awesome, I await your newest book reports (but no rush, of course).

Speaking of book reports, I have obtained the last of the Lady Mary/Algarotti correspondence and will be scanning and uploading that shortly.

From:

selenak

Okay, I picked up the Burgdorf bio this morning and raced through it, with special attention to the two pages you indicate.

The passage on page 83 reads: "At their first meeting after his flight and capture on August 15th 1731 in Küstrin, his father asked: "Did you seduce Katte, or did Katte seduce you?"" German word is "Verführen", as guessed. Also, FW is quoted saying "du", so he must be talking in German. "Friedrich claimed the guilt was his. The protocol of this meeting leaves it ambigous whether the question refers solely to the attempted flight, or also to the "horrible sins", at which the various interrogations had repeatedly hinted at."

Re: the Marwitz episode, that's a bust, Burgdorf just gives an abbreviated version of Ziebura's version, he doesn't even quote the letters, just Lehndorff's diary entry.

In general, I'm less than impressed by this book. I mean, yes, it's an unambious "Fritz was gay, gay, and did I mention, gay?", but he often writes speculation as fact without providing any sources to back this up. For example, re: Orzelska, he says they met in Dresden, hit it off and started "a life long correspondance in letters". (? This is news to me. Have not seen a single letter to or from Orzelska quoted in any biography so far.) Then Burgdorf adds that any thought Fritz actually slept with her even once has clearly to be a fairy tale conjured up by 19th century Prussian historians in a desperate attempt to make their hero less gay. Now, do I think later historians (and not just 19th century ones) jumped at the Orzelska episode, along with poor Doris Ritter, as one of the few examples of Fritz showing interest in a woman he's not related to and who could possibly constructed as a romantic object out of homophobia? Sure. But the thing is, said historians didn't make this up out of nothing. Fritz in a letter to Voltaire unambigously claims to have been in love with her. Wilhelmine said he came back from Dresden very pleased with himself and having had sex with her. Now Fritz could have been lying about this to Voltaire and Wilhelmine both, absolutely. But for Burgdorf not as much as reference the claim and pretend it was all an invention by later historians is disingenious.

And he keeps doing this. After quoting Wilhelmine's unflattering early assessment of Katte, he adds this negative opinion "was purely jealousy, as Wilhelmine had fallen for Katte herself". Ooookay. I mean, again: I, too, did wonder, whether in addition to resenting Katte for the same reason she had resented Keith before him - possessiveness of Fritz' time and attention -, she herself might have felt attracted to Katte and therefore been extra hostile. But that's speculation. He presents it without any "if" or "maybe" or "it could be possible, that...", just as a statement of fact, and there isn't as much as a footnote indicating where he has that from.

Hence me being less than impressed, alas. And not knowing he reliable is in matters I don't have previous background knowledge of, like, for example, a statemtn like: "The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite." Again, no footnote indicating where this story is from.

One useful information I didn't know before which appears to be genuine: after Fredersdorf had died, Fritz asked his widow to return his (i.e. Fritz') letters. She did send two packages of letters back which were duly burnt, but as it turns out kept the majority of letters, which meant we still have them; they were not published until 1926, though.

The other new to me thing was that the "Prussian Pompadour" designation for Fredersdorf which I had read in articles before hails from none other than Ernst von Lehndorff, EC's chamberlain and Heinrich's friend-with-benefits, who writes in his diary in a 1757 entry that he finds it amazing that a "common man" (reminder: Fredersdorf was not a noble) "had played the role of prime minister for so long", ascribes it to him having had "a very pretty face" for a start and having had the wisdom "to withdraw in time, which is a delicate matter for men who have a position otherwise given to a beautiful woman who has to notice when her beauty starts to fade".

(My dear Lord Chamberlain, the Marquise famously held her position long beyond Louis' sexual interest, till her death. Just saying.)

Edited Date: 2019-11-29 12:28 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

started "a life long correspondance in letters". (? This is news to me. Have not seen a single letter to or from Orzelska quoted in any biography so far.)

What. (Trier doesn't have anything either. WTF, author.)

Then Burgdorf adds that any thought Fritz actually slept with her even once has clearly to be a fairy tale conjured up by 19th century Prussian historians in a desperate attempt to make their hero less gay.

What.

he adds this negative opinion "was purely jealousy, as Wilhelmine had fallen for Katte herself".

What.

"The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite."

What. Like you say, it may be true, but it's news to me. Citation required. Also, shooting yourself when your boyfriend moves on (why?) is not exactly comparable to being executed by your boyfriend's father.

after Fredersdorf had died, Fritz asked his widow to return his (i.e. Fritz') letters. She did send two packages of letters back which were duly burnt, but as it turns out kept the majority of letters, which meant we still have them; they were not published until 1926, though.

Okay, that's interesting. Friiitz! Inquiring minds need to know about your relationship with Fredersdorf ~~so we can write curtain fic~~.

(My dear Lord Chamberlain, the Marquise famously held her position long beyond Louis' sexual interest, till her death. Just saying.)

Maybe he's implying that she needs to step down too? :P Wikipedia tells me 1757 was 6 years after she ceased to be official chief mistress, which would mean he moved on sexually when she was about 30, and she's 35 now. (Lehndorff can hardly be held responsible for knowing in 1757 that she would still be influential in 1764, but yes, he should know about the last 6 years, though he may be stating his disapproval.) At any rate, he seems to be indicating that the stepping down was voluntary on Fredersdorf's part.

Okay, found the relevant passage in his diaries online: "His sickness, his jealousy of the famous Glasow*, his wealth, and especially his desire to live quietly, made him beg the king until he relieved him of all his offices." I really want to know what the primary source is for Fredersdorf's involuntary dismissal on grounds of dishonesty. Hopefully the letters will clear that up when they arrive.

Anyway, Burgdorf seems highly unreliable. I am not impressed.

Glasow: I had to refresh myself, but he was apparently a private soldier in the infantry with a pretty face, turned Fritz's favorite starting in 1755, then he ended up in Spandau in 1757 with no reason given. Secondary sources give two accounts: 1) he was part of a plot to poison Fritz, 2) he used his Fritz's seal in an unauthorized manner to issue orders of his own. The same source that says he used to be required to sleep in Fritz's bedroom is the same sources that other sources dismiss as unreliable for the poisoning account. It's pretty clear we have no idea what's going on here, even my secondary sources say that.

Man, I need to reread all the Fritz bios in e-book form. It's only been a few months since my last stint, but thanks to our discussion, there are so many things I actually have context for now that might jump out at me as interesting, like the monkey episode that I had apparently entirely forgotten when I read it the first time (because I had no one to share cool things with). As I was scrolling through volume 1 of Catt yesterday, I was realizing all the military details that I had skimmed because it was a bunch of meaningless place names, now have meaning to me. Totally unexpected side benefit of all that map work. So now I want to reread volume 1.

But! First I need to finish said map-making, and then I need to get my health sorted so I have the concentration to read even e-books again.