Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

[cahn]

All Yuletide requests are out!

Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!

-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)

Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!

-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French

-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...

Master link to Frederick the Great posts and associated online links

Comments

Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz

[cahn]

LOL, okay, I'm glad that you guys don't know what's going on because I was reading selenak's excerpts and going "wtf? whaaaaat? where did this gonorrhea thing even come from??" Only I'm not glad because if you knew you could tell me :P But they are kind of amazing letters in the very-Fritz kind of way!

Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz

[mildred_of_midgard]

Well, I'd seen the gonorrhea quote all over the place, even before I'd read the letters, so I assumed it was real and reflected Fritz's disillusionment after winning (I was also operating on a version of events where he used his power as king to poach Heinrich's page/bf), but now having read the letters more closely instead of just going "...what?" and giving up, I have NO idea whether Fritz is maybe making the gonorrhea thing up. It would sadly be in character from him as a prank/power play.

One day we will solve the sordid mystery of the two brothers and the one Marwitz. (Whatever else it is, it is obviously sordid.)

Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz

[selenak]

Yes, I've got nothing. I mean, Ziebura gives these four letters and the diary entry ten years later as her sources, so I assume that's all that exists. She does think Fritz maligned Marwitz, but her basis for assuming this is that she identifies Marwitz the page with Marwitz the quatermaster from the Rheinsberg obelisk, and states that surely, Heinrich, decades later after he was well out of love, would not have done Marwitz the honor of being listed with AW and other military guys if he'd been an STD-ridden cheat? But a) the Marwitz family was unfortunately large, and b) it's entirely possible that a guy gets STD and still is an honorable man who years later proves his valor in the 7 Years War.

(Fontane, who did see the obelisk in its original state - due to two WWs, it had to be renovated and today there's only the inscription about AW, with the original inscriptions to the other wronged-by-Fritz military guys on separate plaques, or so the German internet says, I haven't been to Rheinsberg yet myself - transscribes all the inscriptions in his "Rheinsberg" chapter, and there, the only thing mentioned is what I already included in another comment - that Marwitz the quatermaster made a good call at Hochkirch.)

Now, given Heinrich later that year wants to go on the Grand Tour (in a military educational kind of way, ahem) and is refused permission by Fritz who mentions in the letter that Heinrich didn't talk to him for six months and "sulked", I dare say Ziebura is on firmer ground in stating this year was when Heinrich's attitude towards Fritz shifted to "oh, how I hate you, let me count the ways" from whatever it was before. (Harder to say how much or little he ever had hero worship the way teenage AW definitely did.)

Since Lehndorff's diary entry is the only source that outright was Fritz was after Marwitz hismelf, it is of course possible that he was mistaken about this. Otoh, this sentence from the letters, put into the mouth of Marwitz-as-imagined-by-Fritz - "Doesn't everyone have to love me, adore me, worship me? What, you little villain, you resist? You haven't yet put your heart at my feet?" - makes me think Fritz was at the very least attracted and rather wanted to blame the page for that, no matter whether or not the guy actually as much as flirted.

Armchair psychology alert: I doubt he had had much to do with Heinrich while Heinrich was still a child. (Heinrich was four years old when Katte died!) So basically, this younger brother is still a stranger, until the second Silesian war, when they start spending time in each other's proximity. And lo, it turns out that of all his siblings, Heinrich is the one most like him; he's basically a younger self. Simultanously to this, Fritz has his big estrangement period with the sibling he's closest to and grew up with, who treasured that younger self but now in his eyes keeps prioritizing other people over him. And there's the fact that Heinrich, while respectful towards him, isn't prioritizing him,either; Heinrich's beloved sibling of choice is AW. So our ever paranoid anti hero who is now is proving once and all Dad was mistaken in fearing Fritz would party his inheritance away and in regarding him as soft in general now decides to double down on that younger self because of all of the above.

(And then there's always the possibility of pure sexual envy. I mean, however much or little sex drive Fritz had, neither Heinrich nor AW were given to platonic relationships, and did have a sex life. Von Krockow thinks there's a parallel between Fritz wanting to spoil young Heinrich's Marwitz romance, and be it with sarcasm, and much later in the letter after AW's disgrace where Fritz makes things even worse with his "the only thing you're fit to command is a seraglio of court ladies!".) Of course Fritz didn't want the court ladies, and he might not even have wanted Marwitz in particular, but someone was having sex and getting affection here, and it wasn't him.)

Re: Two Brothers, One Marwitz

[mildred_of_midgard]

I agree with everything you say here. Unfortunately, we may know everything we're going to know about the Marwitz episode, which would mean all claims by biographers to have a clear account of what was going on are mistaken (which would hardly be a first). That would also explain why secondary accounts contradict each other. (Of course, why biographers can't just *say* we don't know instead of making up narratives...)

She does think Fritz maligned Marwitz, but her basis for assuming this is that she identifies Marwitz the page with Marwitz the quatermaster from the Rheinsberg obelisk, and states that surely, Heinrich, decades later after he was well out of love, would not have done Marwitz the honor of being listed with AW and other military guys if he'd been an STD-ridden cheat? But a) the Marwitz family was unfortunately large, and b) it's entirely possible that a guy gets STD and still is an honorable man who years later proves his valor in the 7 Years War.

What? Didn't Seydlitz have an STD? Yes, Wikipedia says syphilis. There is no logical connection between the two!

Since Lehndorff's diary entry is the only source that outright was Fritz was after Marwitz hismelf, it is of course possible that he was mistaken about this. Otoh, this sentence from the letters, put into the mouth of Marwitz-as-imagined-by-Fritz - "Doesn't everyone have to love me, adore me, worship me? What, you little villain, you resist? You haven't yet put your heart at my feet?" - makes me think Fritz was at the very least attracted and rather wanted to blame the page for that, no matter whether or not the guy actually as much as flirted.

Agreed on both counts. And there's a good chance Fritz was attracted but had no interest in acting on the attraction. Which does not mean he wanted the object of his attraction being more attracted to someone else, especially younger self.

Von Krockow thinks there's a parallel between Fritz wanting to spoil young Heinrich's Marwitz romance, and be it with sarcasm, and much later in the letter after AW's disgrace where Fritz makes things even worse with his "the only thing you're fit to command is a seraglio of court ladies!".) Of course Fritz didn't want the court ladies, and he might not even have wanted Marwitz in particular, but someone was having sex and getting affection here, and it wasn't him.)

This, and the part where if any of his friends (see also Fredersdorf, Catt) wanted to get married, he got pretty ticked off about that. He was less awful toward other people's love lives than FW was toward his, but that's about all you can say. He clearly resented the heck out of anyone having more success in that department than he did.

I think my take on FW-Fritz is that Fritz was not broken by his father, as is so often claimed, but emotionally stunted. As in, he was able to hold on to his own sense of self, but did not develop certain kinds of emotional maturity that he might otherwise have. (Which, after scrolling through volume 2 of the Catt memoirs for my map-making work, I see Fritz has now said *twice* to Catt.)

Also, a little digression on Fredersdorf, since he's been on my mind...it's entirely possible that those two had a satisfying, loving romantic relationship with as much sex as Fritz's sex drive was interested in (we will never know how much of that was trauma vs. personality, of course), and Fritz was *still* nasty about other people's relationships. It's not like relationships magically cure PTSD. And it's possible Fredersdorf *still* decided to get married after twenty years together--for one thing, they seem to have been seeing less of each other by that point, due to Fritz's constant travel and Fredersdorf's illnesses.

But the combination of all these factors makes me think that Fritz might not have been getting something he needed on the romantic front. Maybe he was, and it was just deep-seated trauma that meant that nothing would have been enough short of therapy. Maybe he and Fredersdorf had everything Fritz could possibly have wanted, and it still wasn't enough to let him be chill about everyone else's relationship success, because relationships are not therapy.

But given the circumstances under which Fredersdorf and Fritz met--in Küstrin, right after Katte's death, while Fritz was being watched closely and his movements reported to FW...that might not have been the best time to kick off a homosexual/homoromantic relationship with someone you didn't want to lose. Maybe, between Keith and Katte, Fritz had learned to hold back, to protect his significant relationships.

Maybe Fritz spent those twenty some years together consciously or subconsciously longing for something he didn't have, and I'm not talking sex here so much as relationship security. And maybe that's because Fredersdorf wasn't that way inclined, and maybe he was, but Fritz was holding back, or otherwise unable to figure out how to get his emotional needs met in a relationship. Which meant everyone around him who did, was going to suffer his displeasure.

This is wild, wild speculation and fanon rather than headcanon--i.e. one possible option among many. But it's my take on Fritz/Fredersdorf.

mostly Fredersdorf

[cahn]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me -- I mean, it's pretty common for abused kids to grow up and be emotionally stunted, right? Especially in the absence of therapy.

Re Fredersdorf: so you think he was holding on to him, hmm, socially/politically and possibly sexually, but not emotionally? Interesting.

It also occurs to me also that there is an aspect of emotional relationship security that he couldn't have by definition with a subordinate who was paid to attend him, as Fredersdorf was. The closest he could get was Wilhelmine, which probably worked as a band-aid, at least, until she died.

Re: mostly Fredersdorf

[mildred_of_midgard]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me -- I mean, it's pretty common for abused kids to grow up and be emotionally stunted, right? Especially in the absence of therapy.

Oh, yeah, that's totally normal. I mean, it's possible to come out non-functional or barely functional, with a very weak sense of self, which Fritz didn't (hence my objection to "broken"); and it's possible to come out basically intact, with a lot of wounds and scars, and lacking in certain of the more complex skills that you might have developed with a more solid foundation. And interpersonal skills are among the most complex in the animal world. (From an evolutionary standpoint, a lot of our intelligence as primates is thought to be tied inextricably to the size of our social groups; as in, your ability to grasp calculus is a side effect of your ability to sit through a Thanksgiving dinner with in-laws, and to a certain extent, vice versa. I mean this at the species level and not at the individual level, btw.)

Re Fredersdorf: so you think he was holding on to him, hmm, socially/politically and possibly sexually, but not emotionally? Interesting.

Well, there's what I *think*, which is that there are many possibilities and I have no idea. And then there's how my brain is fleshing things out to achieve some sort of consistent characterization in the absence of evidence.

I mean, there are so many possibilities, among them the following.

1) Conventional close mutual romantic/sexual relationship that didn't solve Fritz's emotional problems enough that he could be mature about other people's relationships.
2) Conventional close mutual romantic/sexual relationship that Fritz couldn't fully get security from, because he was emotionally fucked up.
3) Non-romantic/non-sexual close friendship, full of love and affection, which was all Fritz or Fredersdorf wanted from each other. Fritz remained emotionally fucked up.
4) Non-romantic/non-sexual close friendship, full of love and affection, where one or both of them wanted conventional romance and/or sex, but the fucked-up-ness of the whole situation was such that neither of them ever took the step of risking something that was working for something that might not. And that was related to Fritz's resentment of other people's relationships, including Fredersdorf's eventual marriage.

Are all extremely likely. But the last one is the one that I find myself filling in the blanks with. They meet at a time where they can't do conventional romance/sex. There are serious social differences between them, including but not limited to employer/employee. Fritz is emotionally fucked up in many ways. Fredersdorf comes across to me as quiet and reserved. The fact that he is quiet and reserved probably accounts for a lot of the way the relationship was so stable for so long, but the combination of the complex situation, his personality, and Fritz's trauma may mean that they got into a pattern of affectionate friendship and then just never went into romance/marriage when one or both might have wanted to, consciously or sub-consciously.

Added to that is the question mark around Fredersdorf's sexuality, and how his personality led him to express it. He may not have been participating in the homoerotic banter, or at least only going along with it because it was the Done Thing at Fritz's court; he may not have been having affairs with or even showing interest in other guys; he may have been keeping his sex life in a completely separate sphere; his sexuality may not have been any more clear to Fritz than it is to us, or it may have been clear he was outright straight. (Fritz's letter to him suggesting he take a scout or page with him when he got married means no more to me without context than the Marwitz letters--Fritz could be bitter and nasty where other people's relationships are concerned, and he is far from a reliable source.) In short, in addition to probably not being the type of person who would hit on his boss, Fredersdorf may not have been sending "hitting on me would be welcome" vibes toward Fritz. (I might have more data on this if I 1) had the letters, 2) could read them. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the face of more data.)

And so it's possible Fritz wanted a marriage-level commitment that he wasn't getting, even if he had other forms of emotional closeness such as mutual affection and a confidant he trusted. And maybe even if they were having sex; maybe Fredersdorf was giving off "Sure, you can have sex with me and also other people, and I'm also free to look elsewhere" vibes.

Oh, and when I say "vibes," I do mean vibes--you know how Fritz and Wilhelmine don't always communicate when it would really be in their best interests to? Good communication is one of those advanced skills that requires emotional maturity and is very vulnerable to trauma. (The relationship between talking and trauma is also extremely complex, and it gets a lot of coverage in the trauma literature. Tangentially, so is the relationship between trauma and memory: one thing that horrifies me is that if it's true that Katte was executed in sight of Fritz's window per FW's orders--and a lot of accounts say he was deliberately executed around the corner and out of sight--it remains entirely possible that Fritz witnessed the execution and didn't lose consciousness until afterward, and that the event simply didn't get recorded in his memory, such that he thought he fainted right before it happened. I prefer to think that it happened around the corner, and that he fainted before he could even hear anything. It remains possible, of course, that he fainted after he heard it but didn't record the memory of that either.) And in a situation as complex and involving as much emotional vulnerability as this, Fritz wanting marriage-level commitment and reassurance might not translate to him communicating "I want marriage-level commitment and reassurance" in a way that would be both understood as such and likely to elicit the desired response.

It also occurs to me also that there is an aspect of emotional relationship security that he couldn't have by definition with a subordinate who was paid to attend him, as Fredersdorf was.

I would say that that it's obviously not ideal, but it was a lot more common in previous centuries, both because the odds of you falling in love with someone outside your class were greater the closer you were to the top of the pyramid, and because meeting someone you couldn't have a public relationship with and then hiring them so you had an excuse to be together was a fairly common workaround. The resulting power imbalance is obviously going to make things tricky, but I feel like a lot of couples managed to make it work, and if Fritz had been less messed up, he might have been able to get that kind of security from Fredersdorf. (And maybe he did, and their relationship just ran its course like any other relationship would. Twenty years is a long time.)

I do agree the relationship with Wilhelmine was critical for both of them. And probably more than a band-aid; it was probably structurally important in those formative years, when they were both coming out basically intact.

Crackfic

[mildred_of_midgard]

So I guess what I'm saying is, if we marry him off to his social equal* Joseph, maybe other people can visit England with their lovers. :-PPP

Hell, Joseph likes to travel. Maybe Fritz can visit England with his lover. (Doubt he'd want to, but maybe Chill New Fritz is different.)

* Joseph disagrees, but Fritz says, "You and what army?" to the whole Emperor point.

"The one at Leuthen? Or Hohenfriedberg?"

"The one at Hochkirch," Joseph counters.

"Burkersdorf?"

"Hasn't happened yet. The secret summit is 1761. Your irrational fanboy is still twiddling his thumbs."

"I was trying to decide whether to say Bavarian Succession, but...okay. We'll call it a draw."