cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

All Yuletide requests are out!

Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!

-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)

Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!

-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French

-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...

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From:

selenak

No kidding. Btw, Heinrich's unwanted wife, also called Wilhelmine (commonly referred to as Princess Heinrich, to differentiate her from all the other Wilhelmines in this family), was a beauty and clever, as opposed to AW's wife, who like her sister Elisabeth Christine comes across as an avarage looking, well meaning Braunschweig girl in over her head and trying to make the best of it. Both AW and Ferdinand flirted with Wife-of-Heinrich Wilhelmine when she arrived as if to make up for Heinrich's lack of interest (within courtly limits, i.e. nobody assumed there'd be a scandal, and there wasn't); AW, though, kept up an intense and affectionate correspondance with her till the end of his life. (She wasn't whom he wanted to marry when asking Fritz - in vein - for the permission to divorce his wife, though, that was a lady in the court named Sophie von Pannwitz who according to her memoirs loved him, too, but was of the "no sex without marriage" persuasion, so they didn't have an affair, either. He did have a lot of short term affairs, with various other ladies.

What I also learned from these latest bunch of biographies: brother Ferdinand was actually permitted to marry for love. Whom did he fall in love with and marry? Wait for it - his niece, daughter of his and Fritz' sister Sophie. At which point you throw up your hands and wonder, leaving the close cross generational blood relationship and moral implications of same aside, why on earth a Hohenzollern would marry another Hohenzollern. (Seriously, guys, this is not how you want to compete with the Habsburgs.)

SD and non-Fritz kids: don't know. I mean, they're all "Woe, the best of mothers is dead" when she dies, but that's par the course for the era. Also the German wiki entry for Ulrike (though not the English one) says SD said about her that Ulrike was the sole daughter "whom I could never deny anything to."

The source Ziebura quotes re: the "little Wilhelm asks for mercy" story is Freilnghausen, who was a preacher from Halle whom FW had preach in Wusterhausen, his country mansion, and who noted down the following:

"The prince had been told by his mother the previous day how and for what he should plead, but Wilhelm was afraid his father would be angry. Seckendorff and Grumbkow, too, had talked to him and told him they would ease his path to the King, by saying something like "I believe your son carries something within his heart, Sire..." But only when the mother threatened him with the rod if he didn't say anything, he asked (SD's chief lady in waiting) von Kameken what "hanging" meant, if people got hurt by it, and of one died from it - and then he went to his father."

Whereupon this scene happened.

The prince began by kissing his father's hands and to stroke his cheeks. Rex asked: "You want something, don't you?" Wilhelm: "Yes, Papa." Rex: "What is it?" Wilhelm: "Please don't hang the long fellow who ran away." The King smiled but did not yet give a positive answer. The Queen signalled that the intercession found her favour. Grumpkow and Seckendorff, too, aided the little Prince. Whereupon Rex started to kiss the Prince and hold him in his arms. Now the Queen signalled (Freilinghausen) silently, he, too, was supposed to say something. (Freilinghausen) admonished mercy and said that one had to be harsh if murder had been committed, but in this case surely mercy sould take preference over the letter of the law. The King agreed, and so did the generals present.

Now obviously, saving a human life - especially of a poor guy who just was kidnapped for his body length - is a good thing, but it's still a bit chilling to read all the adults present using this kid. Now this was toddler Wilhelm; child and een Wilhelm, when brother Fritz sends him loving big brother letters from Neuruppin and Rheinsberg and asks him "to tell me bluntly whether or not the King has talked about me; even with a clear conscience I find myself somewhat concerned in this matter", is also delivering as requested:

As you want to know all what the King has been saying about you, so I allow myself to write to you that he has said this noon that he's building a lot of beautiful houses in Berlin; for he knew very well that after his death, my dear brother would have comedies and parties, mistresses and balls; that it would be a pleasure to my brother to waste all the money he had been saved with such hardships; but by now he did not care anymore. Secondly, he said he didn't like fops despite having one in the family. He knew very well which one, but that one was too old to be improved.
You will be surprised, dear brother, that I find the time to write, but I am not in good grace myself right now, and thus have not been taken along on the hunt. I have not done anything wrong! It is only that I did not know the name of a village. But it is alright, as long as he doesn't punish me harder, the way he does a hundred others. Now I am afraid I am boring you, and thus I conclude with the assurance that I will never forget the good advice of a brother whose affection I hope to deserve in the future.

Ziebura quotes a German (rhymed) translation of the praise-and-instruction poem Fritz wrote to AW, which ends with, after wishing glorious deeds (and more voluntarily read books) to young Wilhelm:

"While I am happy to observe
your victories, your joy, your nerve,
and shall content myself with philosophy
Your education as my only trophy"

(English rhymed translation of German rhymed translation by yours truly. It's not Schlegel and doesn't properly scan, but then neither is the Fritzian original.)

To which Whilhelm replies:

"For the epistle which you've sent
And all the praise that you did spent,
Receive much thanks! To me you wish much wisdom
With which, dear brother, you've always endowed been.
To all of us it would be good to heed,
to follow where your mind us wants to lead.
Then I'd be saved from clumsy ignorance,
through you, most noble brother - what a chance!
You are in everything a perfect man,
in body and in mind: salute I can!"

The tragic irony is that AW did learn more, improved his French, geography, maths etc to please his brother. Flash forward to 1749, Fritz has a big argument with Heinrich (which precedes him forcing Heinrich to marry)warming up his FW roleplay, AW tries his old role as family mediator, and:

F: You believe blindly anything (Heinrich) says. (...) Heinrich is your idol, your blind friendship doesn't let you recognize his mistakes. I love him as a brother but would regret it if he doesn't improve in the various aspects I told him. I am not acting out of a whim or to boast. Only his sloppy behaviour is at fault.

AW: I am sad to learn of the unfortunate idea you have of your brothers. The picture of Heinrich you paint, I don't recognize. You ascribe a character to him which I haven't notice, and you consider me so clueless that you believe I am dazzled and fooled by him.

(Can we say "Projecting into Heinrich much, Fritz?")

The roleplay: they finished it before the Diplomatic Revolution. But yes, Prussia wins. Heinrich-as-Fritz first defeats Hannover - the brothers assume that the English Parliament wouldn't be willing to okay British troops to save Hannover, since they felt their royals were too much involved with Hannover anyway - and then fights the Austrians to a standstill.

It does have all the signs of a modern RPG, for, to quote from the biography:

While Heinrich, playing the King, laid out the political-strategic plan and also wrote diplomatic notes, dispatches from ambassadors and memoranda, it was Gessler's, that it is Wilhelm's job to work out the practical side of the enterprise. He sent the King his dispositions for the occupation and defense of Hildesheim, made sketches of the Hildesheim, Misburg and Hannover fortresses indicating siege and weopon positions. He also organized supply lines and the disposition of the field ambulance units. He drew large maps for the battle plans.

How do we know all this? Because our two princes had the whole thing assembled and privately printed once they were done. It's not known whether Fritz ever got a copy.

AW's son Heinrich: nope, Ziebura says nothing about him other that he exists, though yes, I know he's supposed to have been Fritz' favourite nephew. Re: Wilhelmine the younger, I checked out wiki, and while English wiki is longer, German wiki has more about her relationship with Fritz. She married William V. of Orange, which makes her the ancestresss of the current Dutch royals. (BTW, this Hohenzollern connection is also why Willy was offered asylum/retirement in the Netherlands after WWI.) German wiki has this to say: She conducted a lengthy political correspondance with her uncle Frederick the Great, whose favourite niece she was supposed to be. Armed with his advice, she tried to win political influence on the rule of the Netherlands.

Fritz! Encouraging a woman to overrule her man on the throne when it suits you! I'm shocked, simply shocked. Whoever made you believe that would work?

Mysterious Marwitz episode: it's most frustrating. We will find out one day, I hope.:)

Edited Date: 2019-11-22 09:00 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

why on earth a Hohenzollern would marry another Hohenzollern

HOMG.

The roleplay: they finished it before the Diplomatic Revolution. But yes, Prussia wins.

But after the Diplomatic Revolution, when it ceased to be a hypothetical RPG and started to be life-or-death, did they have opinions about whether Fritz/Prussia could pull off a victory against these odds?

All I remember is Heinrich gloating after Kolin, which doesn't bode well for commitment to the cause...

Fritz! Encouraging a woman to overrule her man on the throne when it suits you!

Look, principles are not important when you're king. Only the state is important. If only Montezuma had known this, the Spanish conquest might have gone very differently. :P

I checked out Wikipedia just to see if niece Wilhelmine survived Fritz, and thank goodness she did. Both because we have enough people dying young in this century, and also because he survived enough people he cared about.

From:

selenak

Von Krockow quotes the "Phaeton has fallen" quip from Heinrich post-Kolin, as well as Heinrich being overheard to say, when celebrating his 30th birthday on 18th January 1756 and hearing about Fritz' treaty with England: "The idiot will plunge us all into misery." (Though as opposed to "Phaeton has fallen", which is a letter quote, the later remark doesn't exist in writing but was reported years later, so take it with the due caution of anecdotes written with the benefit of hindsight. Of course, it's possible Heinrich guessed that by allying himself with Britain at a time wheren England and France were duking it out in the American colonies, Fritz had just given the French the last incentive they needed to respond positively to MT's overtures, but then again, everyone, including him, was surprised by the Diplomatic Revolution. Both he and AW found out about the Fritzian decision to invade Saxony pretty much with the rest of the army, but by then this was no longer a surprise (that he didn't tell them about wars he intended to conduct, that is, despite AW being his heir presumptative).

As for AW, it's worth noting that as opposed to his youthful reaction to Fritz invading Silesia, which was basically "You're the coolest, Big Brother! But why didn't you tell me anything! Can I come, too! Wow, just wow!", he in the 1750s had a far darker view of war in general. In 1753, he wrote to the French Ambassador from Spandau:

"I'm getting up at four and am shooting at sparrows until seven. If one looks at this from a philosophical point of view, it sounds ridiculous, but if one considers that it's practice for the annihilation of human life, one wonders: where in this is our humanity? By now, it has become such a well practiced habit in the world to murder each other that the passing of time allows a crime which can't be justified through anything. The defense of our fatherland, the support of our allies can force us to see this with different eyes. That's why we go through the motions here. Add to this a pinch of vanity, and you are getting the picture."

(The French ambassador in question was that same Marquis de Valori who once quipped about Fritz: "Il n'est guère possible d'avoir plus d'esprit, et il est très possible d' en faire un meilleur usage.")

So basically, the dccumented reactions from both him and Heinrich in 1756 as to what this implied for Prussia can be summed up with "Shit, shit, can't we at least persuade the French to like us again, argh, must join the war effort to save the country!"

Von Krockow also quotes this bitter assessment from Heinrich in 1760 (i.e. at a point where AW is already dead but Heinrich himself, even in Fritz' estimation, has emerged as the major military talent of this war)where he writes to Ferdinand: "You are kind enough to ascribe the saving of the state to me; but even if I had all the abilities you are ascribing to me, they wouldn't be of any use, since I can't go against the will of the one who is dragging us all with him. He who commands under the King loses honor and reputation. (...) 'The State', my dear brother, is a name that gets used to throw sand into the eyes of the public; a villain who claims every success for himself and whom one serves like a human sacrifice."

To be fair,

cahn, Fritz famously post Seven Years War toasted Heinrich, in public, as the only general, including himself, who never made any mistakes in said war. How Heinrich reacted to that one is nowhere described. Von Krockow guesses he probably just bowed silently and went home to Rheinsberg.

Edited Date: 2019-11-25 07:42 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

by then this was no longer a surprise (that he didn't tell them about wars he intended to conduct, that is, despite AW being his heir presumptative)

Going back in time a couple thousand years, to the wars among Alexander's successors, this reminds me of the time Demetrius wanted his father the king, Antigonus, to tell him when he planned to march, and Antigonus quipped, "Why? Are you afraid you alone of all the army will not hear the trumpet?"

From:

cahn

Oh wow, that AW quote. :( <3 And Heinrich's too, although in a different more specifically-Fritz-bitter way -- but AW's view of war in general is just heartbreaking to me.

From:

selenak

Same here. It also goes directly against the "well-meaning, dumb jock" image 19th century historians have given him. If you want a bit more heartbreak, Fontane points out that before their fall-out, despite the bossing around, Fritz actually showed consistently signs of being fond of AW, for that praise-and-instruction poem from his crown prince time turns out not to have been a singular event: "(Fritz) dedicated his great poem to him. "The art of war," he also dedicated to him "The History of Our House" and pronounced it in the masterful introduction of this work in front of the whole world and the future, why he held this brother, who was to succeed him, especially dear as both friend and prince. "The gentleness, the humanity of your character, is what I treasure; a heart open to friendship is above sublime ambition; you know no commandment other than justice, and no other will, than the desire to earn the esteem of the wise. "

Fontane's summary of the disastrous event: As my readers know, Prince August Wilhelm was put in command of those troops who were to withdraw to Lausitz; Winterfeldt was added to him. Things went badly, and when the two brothers met again, that terrible scene took place, which Count Schwerin, Winterfeldt's adjutant, described as follows: "A circle of witnesses was formed in which the prince and all his generals stood. Not the king entered the circle, but Winterfeldt instead of him. On the King's orders he had to say: 'They would all deserve to have a council of war over their conduct, where they would not escape the dictum of losing their heads; however, the King did not want to push it so far, because he did not forget his brother in the General. "The King was standing near the circle," continues Count Schwerin, "and paid attention as to whether Winterfeldt was using the expressions demanded of him. Winterfeldt did so, but with a shudder, and he could at once see the impression of his words, for the prince immediately left the circle and rode to Bautzen without speaking to the King."

Now how much of this was scapegoating for a military disaster, or correct blame for a military disaster, or at long last channelling some buried resentment toward's Dad's favorite, or channelling his father in the worst way, or all and any of this, biographers have been debating ever since.

From:

cahn

ugh ugh ugh FRITZ

From this description I could totally see him thinking that he had done right by AW, like, "what is your problem?? I would totally have been justified in killing him outright and I DIDN'T and look I'm just a merciful kind of guy why are you all so mad at me??"

FRITZ YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT

From:

cahn

Whom did he fall in love with and marry? Wait for it - his niece, daughter of his and Fritz' sister Sophie.

aaaaaaah WHY

Now obviously, saving a human life - especially of a poor guy who just was kidnapped for his body length - is a good thing, but it's still a bit chilling to read all the adults present using this kid.

Argh, yes.

Awwww your translations! I feel like they really get across the character of the different poems and poets -- Fritz's being workable but not quite scanning and Wilhelm's being just, well, cute and sweet and clearly done by a kid <3

Fritz! Encouraging a woman to overrule her man on the throne when it suits you! I'm shocked, simply shocked. Whoever made you believe that would work?

*the ghost of MT is not saying anything at all, but is looking super smug just about now*