cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

All Yuletide requests are out!

Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!

-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)

Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!

-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French

-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...

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From:

selenak

And what conclusion did Bielfeld arrive at, one may ask? :)

It's always tricky to assess historical people's looks, and portraits don't help much, since in most cases they've been comimissioned and were executed by painters who wanted to get paid. (Though it's still amazing that Goya was not only paid but was the court painter given how he made the Spanish Royals of his day look.) Beauty ideals change, plus nobility had the advantage of being far better fed and healthier than your avarage citizen, so they must have looked like coming from another world by that virtue alone. For example, when Goethe reports his parents described MT as beautiful to him, I'm taking this to mean that your avarage Frankfurt citizen saw her in her FS coronation finery, as far as one could see from a waving distance, she had regular features, they were impressed, no more than that. The Prussian ambassador who saw her up close and has no reason to flatter her in a report written for her (immune to female charms) arch nemesis is a somewhat more reliable witness, but still,beautiful for a Rokoko princess doesn't necessarily mean more than "had the fashionable colouring (blond, blue eyed) for her day, regular features and enough force of personality and charm to make an impression even after she had put on more weight than even at her era was thought desirable".

Re: Fritz dressing up in French finery out of the public's eye, yup, have read this, too. It seems he and MT went in opposite directions in their private/public looks,since she when representing was supposed to dazzle in her wardrobe. (See the ambassador's disapprovalf or her not doing so outside of the holidays.9

Quelle horreur! A monarch driven only by the ambition to enlarge their territory!

It's shocking, simply shocking. Seriously though, one reads this, remembers whom it's adressed to and wonders "was he trolling Fritz or did he really believe in this double standard so much?" Alas, I fear it was the later.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

And what conclusion did Bielfeld arrive at, one may ask? :)

Along the lines of what you summarize as fashionable coloring for his day, regular features, and enough force of personality and charm to make an impression, even though I don't think anyone's ever convincingly called him good-looking.

"He is not of a remarkable stature, and would not have been chosen to have ruled in the place of Saul, but when we consider the strength and beauty of his genius, we cannot but desire, for the prosperity of the people, to see him fill the throne of Prussia. His features are highly pleasing, with a sprightly look and a noble air, and it depends altogether on himself to appear perfectly engaging. A petit maître of Paris would not perhaps admire his frisure; his hair however is of a bright brown, carelessly curled, but well adapted to his countenance. His large blue eyes have at once something severe, soft, and gracious. I was surprised to find in him so youthful an air. His behavior in every respect, is that of a person of exalted rank, and he is the most polite man in all that kingdom over which he is born to rule."

"His features are highly pleasing" I am taking to mean "regular enough, not strikingly good looking, well fed*, and it barely matters because he has charisma."

* Aside from when his father was starving him, all descriptions of Fritz I've seen, including from his own mouth, have him on the plump side.

Alas, I fear it was the later.

Alas, I'm inclined to agree. Also, let's not forget Fritz's Very Important Historical Claim to Silesia! Obviously MT is in the wrong here. :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, wait, I knew there was another one! The "hot or not" report from Guy de Valory, French ambassador, writing in an official capacity back to Versailles:

"He is small and of noble comportment. His build is irregular; his hips sit too high and his legs are too fat. He has handsome blue eyes, which bulge out a little too much, but which easily betray his mood; so that their expression changes according to his different states of mind...His hair is thick, he has a winning mouth and nose, his smile is amiable and spiritual, but often bitter and mocking."

Other people who commented on Fritz's eyes being the most striking part of his appearance: Voltaire, Catt, Countess Egloffstein, Lafayette. Given the intensity of his personality, that does not surprise me at all.

"The French seem to have been particularly susceptible to Frederick's big blue eyes—'the most beautiful I have ever seen' was the verdict of the Marquis de Lafayette, who had looked into quite a few beautiful eyes in his time—quoted in Bernd Klesmann, 'Friedrich II. und Frankreich: Faszination und Skepsis,' in Friederisiko, Ausstellung, p. 144."

Ha! Lafayette/Fritz? :P

Voltaire, like Valory, also seems to have found Fritz's smile attractive, at least before their falling out. ~~Somebody write Fritz/Voltaire~~ :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So what I'm getting out of this is that when you, as an ambassador, go to make a report on a foreign monarch, the "hot or not" component is mandatory. :P

From:

selenak

Apparently so! I wonder, did the early American ambassadors at Versailles also fulfill this noble duty in their reports to Congress? I suppose Franklin and Jefferson wouldn't have had a problem with it, but John Adams might, given he thought Franklin had adopted French (lack of) morals far too much anyway.

From:

cahn

Man, now I really want Franklin to have done this :P (Though I don't know if he did -- my terrible historical knowledge extends to American history as well, though it's not quite as bad as my European history.)

From:

selenak

The Duc de Croy, who had an endearingly open mind for an older gent and was fascinated by the sciences, mmet Franklin repeatedly and thought Franklin rocked. The first time, he did what a fanboy (at whatever age) would and had Franklin explain electricity to him. The second meeting he writes at length about came after our Duke had read about the exploits of Captain James Cook, and was mightly impressed:

Emmanuel de Croy: Wow. Just wow. Captain Cook is a most valiant man. May he go on exploring the planet some more and write about it so I can read it! Hang on, zomg, I've just remembered: He's British. We're at cold-hot-cold-hot war with England. What if our ships meet him at seas and stop this most wonderful man from exploring? #saveJamesCook

*goes on to write a memo to the French admirality that all French ships should be told to treat Captain Cook with the utmost courtesy should they meet him*

Admirality: Okay, Monsieur Le Duc, you have the requisite number of ancestors, so... I guess we'll forward the memo.

EdC: Excellent! But wait! What if AMERICAN buccaneers encounter and harm wonderful Captain Cook? #saveJamesCook

*off he goes to Franklin*

F: Hi, glad to see you. We're as always out of money and guns and would be grateful for more of same. More Lafayettes, too.

EdC: I sympathize, but that's not why I'm here. We must #saveJamesCook! Promise me! No American ship must ever harm him and stop him from exploring!!!!

F:...Okay.

When I read that I thought the Duke was lucky not to have run into the considerably more short tempered John Adams, who was replacing Franklin as Ambassador until he in turn was replaced by Jefferson. BTW, the Duke was also thrilled when the brothers Montgolfier did their great balloon launch at Versailles, something that's wonderfully visualized in the miniseries John Adams, because Adams, Abigail and Jefferson watched it together, here.

The Duke was so thrilled that he made his own little balloon (without a living person in it) afterwards and send it across the channel in the general direction of Dover, noting in his diary how lucky he was to have lived into a time where people could now fly and the wonderful Captain Cook was exploring the other side of the planet. #saveJamesCook

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So many great stories. SO MANY.

From:

selenak

Look at my latest comment below. I finally got my hands on the Marwitz-the-page related letters by Fritz.

From:

cahn

Awwww, he sounds like a sweetie. Batty, of course! But also sweet.

From:

cahn

LOL. Yeah, clearly. I guess I can see it being a thing in these days where (as

selenak said) they didn't have reliable ways to assess people's looks, but it's still pretty funny in the 21st century :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, hey, I found the full Lafayette quote! "To Potsdam I went to make my bow to the king, and notwithstanding what I had heard of him, could not help being struck with the dress and appearance of an old, broken, dirty corporal, covered all over with Spanish snuff, with his head almost leaning on one shoulder, and fingers almost distorted by the gout; but what surprises me much more is the fire, and sometimes the softness, of the most beautiful eyes I ever saw, which give as charming an expression to his physiognomy, as he can take a rough and threatening one at the head of his troops."

This is 1785, just a year before Fritz died--possibly from all that snuff-taking. I would love to see a portrait of Old Fritz that depicts the state of his clothes, but I guess that's too much realism even for him. :P I just keep running across it in like every description of a foreign visitor. Nobody can pass by him in their memoirs without mentioning that he's covered in snuff. (I guess it's memorable when you start sneezing as you approach him, which at least one visitor accused him of.)

From:

cahn

ahahahaaha wow. That's a pretty great description.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It is! And here's the rest, not about his looks but his personality: "For eight days, I made dinners of three hours with him [in a small group] which gave me the opportunity to hear him throughout, and to admire the vivacity of his wit, the endearing charms of his address and politeness, so far that I did conceive people could forget what a tyrannic, hard-hearted, and selfish man he is."

Because I have the epic rap battle permanently stuck in my head, I am reminded by this, and also the "as charming an expression...as he can take a rough and threatening one at the head of his troops" in the above quote, of "I've got creative talents and battle malice; hard as steel on the field, genteel in the palace."

This is why people entitle biographies of him with words like "enigma" and "contradictions."

I am also reminded of his ability to charm young Catherine the Great at dinner. He could switch it on when he wanted to, no question.

From:

selenak

That is a great description!

Re: the eyes, remember when I mentioned that Amalie was supposedly the sibling with the closest physical resemblance to Fritz? Goethe's late age pen pal Zelter, a musician, once got her to let him go through her cherished collection of rare original Bach manuscripts (as far as we know, she did not have an affair with Friedemann, but she did manage to gather the most impressive collection of hand-written Bach scores - both JB himself and his sons; Carl Emmanual also called her his patroness and wrote a dedication to her), and here's how Zelter describes it - Amalie was an old lady at that point:

"Princess Amalie once let me see her musical collection, but only the titles, through the glass of the cupboards. One of the works, she took out, but kept it in her hands, and only let me look. But then I grabbed it in order to further browse through it, and shocked, her eyes grew large as wheels. They were the eyes of her brother."

(„Prinzeß Amalie ließ mich einmal ihre Musikalien sehen, aber nur die Titel, durch das Glas der Schränke. Ein Werk nahm sie heraus, behielt es aber in Händen und ließ mich nur hineingucken. Da griff ich aber zu, um darin blättern zu können, und sie, erschrocken, machte Augen wie Wagenräder. Es waren die Augen ihres Bruders.“)