Having seen felis's evidence that the Adresskalender lists Jägerhof as Jägerhof in the 1760s, and given that Jägerhof is not exactly on the water, I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof. So when they got the Jägerhof, I'm not sure. It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned. I'm also still confused by Frau von Knyphausen being listed until 1754, when the internet is unanimous in claiming her death for 1751. (The internet may be wrong; I think all the wiki and genealogy pages copy off each other and thus go back to a single source.)
Btw, since we're all bringing out our inner nitpickers, Selena, you said recently that Hertefeld and Nicolai had no way to check that Peter was cross-eyed, so that detail must be genuine. I agree that it's likely genuine, but in addition to the uncheckable Lehndorff diaries and Wanted description from FW to Degenfeld, the squint also shows up in Formey, who was published and available at the time. In fact, Felis turned up something from 1790 that what we both agree is a recounting of Formey's eulogy.
Meanwhile, cool things I found in the Adresskalender: our envoys! Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725, but no indication of where that was. But given that he was a "creature of Flemming" per Stratemann, that makes sense. Is that like the Saxon embassy? Stratemann is also listed, as is Düburgee (another spelling!), as is Lovenohr.
Katte! In 1730, is living "auf der Dorotheenstatt unter der Linden in Reichmanns hause." This is probably in Kloosterhuis (update: checked, and yes, it is), but it's cool to see it in the address book. Oh, man, right next to him in the address book, i.e. alphabetically, not geographically next door, is preacher Muller. :/
Oh, look, it's the whole Gens d'Armes section. Katte's listed because he's an adjutant. There's Natzmer and Pannewitz, and oh! There's a Major Schenck and a Major Schack, no wonder Wilhelmine and Pollnitz got confused in their memoirs over who was responsible for carrying out Katte's execution.
[Argh, premature submission.]
Also, felis, I found your missing 1777-1787 years! Munich Stabi has them!
If I didn't have to give a presentation at work in an hour, I'd keep hunting, but I need to stop here. For now. :D
I have to say, I didn't imagine that Selena would read a book on Gundling and felis would turn this into tracking down Keith residences for me. Now that's what I call alchemy!
Also, felis, I found your missing 1777-1787 years! Munich Stabi has them!
Ha, it doesn't, it links to the Berlin StaBi, which is where the other issues are as well. The ZLB overview page just didn't link to them for some incomprehensible reason, what the heck. *shakes head*
(Just so we don't work double here: I'll have a look at the missing ten years for the Keith family later, will report back.)
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend. (Heads up: north = down here, but there's a georeferenced version down the page as well.) Just out of interest, I looked up two of Lehndorff's addresses on there and he moved from somewhere around Jägerbrücke (which is the one leading away from the Jägerhof) to a place next to the Zeughaus (= "Arsenal" on the plan, i.e. right next to Heinrich's Palais).
still confused by Frau von Knyphausen being listed until 1754
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I have to say, I didn't imagine that Selena would read a book on Gundling and felis would turn this into tracking down Keith residences for me. Now that's what I call alchemy!
Heh, I was thinking something similar. I'd never have thought to look for it if Selena hadn't reported on Sabrow's research work.
Just out of interest, I looked up two of Lehndorff's addresses on there and he moved from somewhere around Jägerbrücke (which is the one leading away from the Jägerhof) to a place next to the Zeughaus (= "Arsenal" on the plan, i.e. right next to Heinrich's Palais)
Of course he did. :) Though out of interest, when? Because that Palais took an eternity to be build, and I don't think Heinrich actually lived there before the 7 Years War ended.
These are the start and end points of his 1759 moves (I ignored the couple of months in the middle when he lived somewhere else).
Of course he did. :)
Heh, my thought exactly. Though to be fair, if you look at the plan, it's all really close together anyway, and I have no idea which of the houses "behind the Zeughaus" was the one he lived in. If it was one of the ones at the water, he had a free line of sight towards the Palais, though!
Also, while looking for the Keith son, I saw in passing that he still had "hinterm Zeughause" as his address in 1788, so no other moves apparently!
Well, he mostly lived in East Prussia at his estate from his mid 1770s resignation onwards, with the occasional traveling even to places other than Rheinsberg (as in, Poland accross the border, Karlsbad, Bayreuth, even), and Berlin for the winter. Though at some point he must have sold it because in 1799, he and his entire family have been living in Heinrich's Palais for free for the last two years precisely because he doesn't have a Berlin apartment anymore. (And wants to keep an eye on his sons who are studying now.)
BTW: where does Charles Hanbury Williams live in his one year of being an envoy and developing a mutual hate-on with Fritz (and becoming bff with young Poniatowski)? (1750-1751) And by contrast, everyone's favourite British envoy Andrew Mitchell? (When he's not with Fritz and Heinrich on the front lines, that is.)
Hanbury Williams, only mentioned in 1751 (which makes sense if he was appointed in the middle of the year): "auf der Friderichsstadt in der Potsdammer-Strasse in des Geheimen Rath Sellentius Hause" - which is out west towards Potsdam, close to the Tiergarten. Definitely further away than all the other envoys so far!
Mitchell:
1757-62: "vor dem Spandauer Thor in der Commandanten-Strasse in des Herrn Obristen von Königsmark Hause" - the 1748 plan doesn't have that street name, but the Spandauer Gate is right next to Monbijou I see
1763: "auf der Friedrichstadt in der Schützenstrasse in der Feld-Marschallin von Schmettau Hause" - Feld-Marschall Schmettau was with AW, wasn't he? Anyway, the street is three blocks southwest of the Jägerhof, parallel to Leipziger/Kronenstrasse where Knobelsdorff used to live.
1764ff: "am Gens d'Armes-Marckt in dem Bodenschen Hause" - well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan (and according to wiki wasn't officially named that until 1799), there it's still "Mittelmarckt", right across the Jägerbrücke
(Which reminds me, the "Marcktkirche" there = later Neue Kirche (where Knobelsdorff and Pesne were buried, simultaneously Calvinist and Lutheran, might be a contender for Peter as well) = Deutscher Dom today. Its newly built tower collapsed in 1781, so Fritz fired Gontard, who was responsible for the construction.)
I had not realized Dickens was in Berlin until 1741. But there he is! (Wikipedia agrees.) Also, Wikipedia tells me he had lived in Berlin from 1724, as a secretary at the British embassy, and got officially appointed Secretary to the Prussian court in 1730, which is when he seems to become important enough to make it into the Adresskalender. So he did not, as I'd thought, arrive with Hotham and stay.
I see that Lynar in 1730 is not living in the Flemming house, and if Suhm was living elsewhere before 1725, then I'm guessing they just lived wherever and there wasn't a Saxon "residence" for envoys in Berlin. Unlike when Suhm inherited Lynar's house in St. Petersburg.
- well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan
I had naturally looked this up already on the map and had found the same thing. :)
Btw, I don't see an envoy either to Brunswick or from Brunswick in 1741, and 1740 is missing. I was hoping to find out who Stratemann's successor was, since I still consider him a candidate for Manteuffel's "Anonymous."
Schmettau: he was! Thank you for all the information. Next time I'm in Berlin and at the Gendarmenmarkt, I'll think of Mitchell (and Boswell visiting him there, complete with foot-in-mouth meeting of the Dutch envoy who is visiting simultanously), and visit the church to pay my respects to Knobelsdorff, Pesne and possibly Peter.
Figures that Hanbury Williams would be the envoy furthest away from all the action!
Okay, so previous thread on the Keiths and here's what I found for the gap:
[1775-1776: Geheime Staatskanzlei + Royal Envoy at foreign courts: Peter Carl v. Keith, Legations-Rath, Königlicher Kammerherr and Envoyé Extraordinaire at the Turin Court, is absent [therefore no adress]]
1777/78: same as 1776
1779-83: listed in the Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse" in the Geheime Staatskanzlei section: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse im Dammschen Hause"
1784-87: Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, "s. Geheime Staatskanzlei" Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, "Taubenstraße im Friedelschen Hause" + 1787: Widow Keith mentioned for the first time
1788: the court mention finally changes from "Peter Carl" to "Ernst Reinhard Carl"
[1788-1791: Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. K., Legationsrath, lives at Taubenstr. im Friedelschen Hause and also: Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace]
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
--
ETA: More findings:
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well and there it specifies "in Cölln am Wasser", which is a designation that can be found at the south end of the "island" with the Palace on it (i.e. at the top in the 1748 plan). (And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name. But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.)
I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof
Yeah, seems likely. If you look at the 1748 plan, there's a small street that runs parallel to Brüderstrasse (and turns into "Cölln am Wasser" at the end!) and there are definitely houses there, so that's a possibility I guess.
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748. The Kalender has its own section for "Jägerey", which has the Hunting Office itself "auf dem Jägerhofe Obere Wallstrasse", a couple of lower officials all living "Königlicher Jägerhof in der Kleinen Jägerstrasse", one guy living "auf einem Flügel [wing] am Jägerhofe", and the Oberjägermeister usually living "auf dem Großen Jägerhofe in der Großen Jägerstrasse", i.e. where the Keith brothers live in 1765.
Now, I found out (via the Hohenzollern Yearbook) that the Oberjägermeister Schlieben died in 1748 and that there was a reshuffling of responsibilities, most importantly, a separation of the hunting and the forestry division. (Raumer even mentions that both the hunting and the forestry office stayed at Jägerhof for a while even after part of the building, i.e. the Große Jägerstrasse side, was turned into a bank.) Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities? Just speculation. Schwerin, the third guy mentioned by Raumer together with Knobelsdorff and Peter in ~1742, did apparently live there at some point, but then again, he was Landesjägermeister. Schlieben's successor as Oberjägermeister only had the office from June 1749 to January 1750 and neither did he get to do anything nor did he live at the Jägerhof is seems, but the guy after him, Schmettau, did. He was in office until 1753 and after that it was Baron Grapendorf, for decades, who never lived at the Jägerhof but had his own house elsewhere, so even if there was only one apartment at the Große Jägerstrasse side, it might have been free for Ariane and the kids to move into.
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard "Call me whatever" Keith. :P
I was starting to question myself as well, except that I've seen two different reliable sources (Prussian archives and this volume refer to the Sardinian envoy 1774-1778 as Peter Carl von Keith or Carl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, and given that Carl Ernst's father's name was Peter Karl...
I guess he just went by different names!
It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned.
Btw, correcting my original post: they clearly didn't own it, but they had it as "lebenslängliche Wohnung." Is there a way to interpret that, e.g. "property", by which they didn't own it but also didn't live there in 1756?
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well
I checked 1729 (yes) and 1730 (not listed--as expected, since he's now a private citizen), but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions. This is awesome! :D
Also: almost certainly not the Count Field Marshal Flemming of Saxony! (That had confused me, and I was almost certain it was a different Flemming, one of many, but then he had the right titles...but! Researching governors of Berlin has led me to find a different Field Marshal Count Flemming, and he was governor of Berlin until 1706, so likely him. Also, Wikipedia tells me that Saxon minister Field Marshal Count Flemming, boss of Suhm, is the nephew of Berlin governor Field Marshal Count Flemming, in whose house Suhm is probably living. Apparently, nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice.)
And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name.
I did notice!
But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.
Evidently!
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748.
I know that in subsequent decades/centuries they expanded it until they couldn't expand it, and they had to move it, but I didn't know how big it was when Peter was living there. Good to know! Maybe he had an apartment (or office) there and also in the Knyphausen house.
Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities?
I had always thought that, it was my first guess ~a year ago, when we first located the Jägerhof. And now that we know that he was involved from at least 1742, it seems likely!
Sidenote here: Flemming the mighty Saxon minister was, like Manteuffel, actually from Pomerania (birthplace of honest honest folk who never lie), so it's not surprising if his nephew or uncle was in Prussian service, it's Flemming the minister who is the one leaving Prussia for Saxony. It would also makes sense if he stored his Berlin envoys with a relation.
Btw, Manteuffel being from Pomerania means, of course, that his family estate is in Pomerania, which means that when he realises which way the wind is blowing and moves his papers from Dresden to his estate in 1730 so when he hands in his resignation papers, Hoym won't find them at his office anymore, he actually has brought them across the border and into Prussian territory, so Hoym can't send a search party after him, either. And it's why FW can have a stopover at Kummerfrey in 1731 without making a state visit to Saxony in that year; he's traveling through Pomerania on one of his inspection tours.
Argh, after I went to bed I realized I had typed "nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice" instead of "uncle guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg service." But apparently it's more complicated than that: as you point out, he started in Brandenburg, switched to imperial service, switched to Brunswick service, switched to Saxon service, and then returned to Brandenburg service, which was when he got the final promotions, to governor of Berlin and field marshal, and why I had homed in on that particular stage of his service-switching.
And then, yes, Saxon minister Flemming had switched from Brandenburg service to Saxon.
Oh, hey, I hadn't seen this one before! Basically checks out when compared with Kalender data, nice. But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
"lebenslängliche Wohnung."
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live. (No idea if that means that they could have rented to someone else as well if they didn't live there themselves, but given that it wasn't their property, I rather doubt it?)
but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions.
To clarify here: "Cölln" is the name for the pre-Berlin town on the Spree Island and the name for the historical city district in the same place, so it refers to the whole island. So I guess that "am Wasser" means the entire street along the waterside, which is where both Suhm and Peter lived. Since that's a looong street, I suspect Peter's address got the "behind Brüderstrasse" for clarification, but I'm not so sure that Suhm actually lived at the southern tip, because "Cölln am Wasser" should mean the whole street around the southern part of the island and maybe at the very end is just where Schmettau* decided to write the street name. So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed. (I hope this makes sense.) But speaking of historical districts, "Friedrichswerder" is the one with the Jägerhof in it, and "Dorotheenstadt" the one with the long Unter den Linden alley. See here for an overview. (Also, pre-1725, Suhm actually lived in Spandauer Strasse, which was located in the historical Berlin district that gave the whole city its name, to the east (number I).)
*plan-writer Schmettau btw = one of Peter's three curator collegues at the Academy
Yeah, it's been my main source on the son for a while. Apparently, the only thing the author knows about Peter's death is that it was before 1763, though!
But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
Apparently!
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live.
That does make sense. And I guess if you have a place you own and can sell/rent for ready cash, and a place you can live without paying, that makes financial sense when your breadwinner dies unexpectedly.
So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed.
Thank you for clarifying Berlin historical geography! In that case, I guess what I pinpointed was the words "Cölln am Wasser" on the map, lol.
Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace
It occurred to me that I'm an idiot and Ariane was great governess at Luise's court of course. Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death. *headdesk* Kind of makes me wonder how she got the job.
Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death.
Yes and no. One generation earlier: far as I recall, Lehndorff refers to SD as Queen more often than "Queen Mother" during her son's reign, and when he wants to set SD and EC apart, he calls EC "The reigning Queen" or "The young Queen", and SD "The old Queen". So it might have been handled similarly in FW2's era, with Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt being "the reigning Queen" and EC "the old Queen" (as she couldn't be "the Queen Mother" anyway).
Ha, it doesn't, it links to the Berlin StaBi, which is where the other issues are as well.
Did not notice that in my haste. I guess linking is the important part!
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend.
You know I did! Thanks so much! And 1748 is such a perfect year for our interests.
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I had considered that as a possibility, yeah. I mean, it's been a long time since Nicolai lived at Brüderstraße 13, but we still call it that to this day! And if Frau von Knyphausen owned it and Peter and/or Ariane inherited it from her...Makes sense.
Addresses for our envoys: that's very cool. Also, dash it, now I've returned all my books to the Stabi; the Manteuffel dissertation had both his Berlin addresses (i.e. the one he had as Saxon envoy and then later the one when he moved to Berlin as private citizen in 1733), so we could have checked whether the former is also Flemming's house. I do remember they were two different addresses, though.
LOL on all the different spellings for the English envoy.
Katte: has a good address he lives unter den Linden. Well, both his father and grandfather are loaded in cash. And Müller, gulp.
There's a Major Schenck and a Major Schack, no wonder Wilhelmine and Pollnitz got confused in their memoirs over who was responsible for carrying out Katte's execution.
I know that Suhm inherited Lynar's (the previous and subsequent Saxon envoy to Russia, he of the threesomes with Anna Leopoldovna and Mengden) house in St. Petersburg, the one that almost burned down twice. It would make sense if the envoys tended to gravitate toward or were assigned a specific dwelling.
LOL on all the different spellings for the English envoy.
Løvenørn has more! And Peter Ernst Carl Reinhardt, himself an envoy, is catching up in his own way. :D
ETA:
Katte: has a good address he lives unter den Linden. Well, both his father and grandfather are loaded in cash.
Speaking of Grandpa Wartensleben, in 1730, he's the governor of Berlin, and he lives "auf dem Friedrichs-Werder, in des Gouverneurs Hause." Kloosterhuis confirms that this is where Katte was born. I see Wartensleben's been governor since 1702. The Gouverneurs Haus is not to be confused with the later Gouverneurshaus, erected in 1721 and only used as a governor's house starting in 1732, so not the one listed on our 1748 map.
As for the corresponendence, I'll get around to it, but only after Easter. Ordering always takes a few days, and next week I'm off to spend the Easter Holidays with the APs. I don't want a parcel with Stabi books standing around unsupervised in the floor!
It would make sense if the envoys tended to gravitate toward or were assigned a specific dwelling.
Especially since it's there to have when the previous envoy moves out anyway, and also if you move to a new place, even if you bring some of your own servants and staff, you will inevitably also hire some locals. (For laundry, food delivery etc.) It's much more convenient to use already established connections than for you or your steward having to find the people in question in the first place.
Speaking of 1730: I briefly wondered where Doris Ritter lived to take those fatal chaperoned strolls with Fritz, but then I recalled she was in Potsdam, not Berlin. Checking wiki again, Doris Ritter's father Matthias was headmaster at the Potsdam grammar school and choirmaster at St. Nikolai, which is the same church where Gundling will be buried in April 1731.
...now I wonder whether Dad Ritter when his boss was one of the valiant five to take a stand against FW either tried to talk him out of it (what if he has you whipped, too?) or encouraged him (At least this time, show the bastard!).
Anyway, Doris living in Potsdam, not Berlin, means both the strolls and the shared music playing must have taken place there as well.
St. Nikolai, which is the same church where Gundling will be buried in April 1731
Nitpick time: He was buried in the Bornstedter church, beyond Sanssouci. The Nicolaikirche was just where the funeral service took place and it's the huge dome right next to the Town Palace.
Oh, and the Adresskalender is actually for Berlin and Potsdam both, but I don't see a Ritter in 1729 or 1730, so her father's position must not have been important enough to be included.
Right, burial and funeral service, different churches. Still, as Cantor of Nicolai, Matthias Ritter would presumably have a front row seat to his superior refusing to hold the funeral service if Gundling didn't get a real coffin. If, that is, he still had the job in 1731.
Wiki says they only moved to Potsdam in 1728 when he got the job(s), - they lived in Perleberg before that - , so perhaps that's why he didn't make the 1729 address book yet. In 1730, otoh, he lost his job at the school immediately in September when Doris was whipped. I do hope he wasn't fired at the church as well, but wiki doesn't say. So the family might have had to move again.
As for the corresponendence, I'll get around to it, but only after Easter. Ordering always takes a few days, and next week I'm off to spend the Easter Holidays with the APs. I don't want a parcel with Stabi books standing around unsupervised in the floor!
Understood and agreed! No rush, no one is *dying* to know what Manteuffel said to Wolff in their three volumes of correspondence. ;) I just wanted to let you know it's out there, because you've Pavlovianly conditioned me that if I bring your attention to a book that you have access to, I will find out what's in that book without any effort on my part. <3 Enjoy your holidays!
Mind you, the description doesn't just say "historisch-kritische Ausgabe", it also says the languages used are French, Latin and German. Which gives me the unholy idea that we're dealing with an edition that doesn't include translations for Manteuffel's written in French letters. And if he and Wolff intermittently write in Latin as well - yikes! Henri de Catt with his occasional Latin was tough enough!
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timeasmymeasure
Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 03:23 pm (UTC)Btw, since we're all bringing out our inner nitpickers, Selena, you said recently that Hertefeld and Nicolai had no way to check that Peter was cross-eyed, so that detail must be genuine. I agree that it's likely genuine, but in addition to the uncheckable Lehndorff diaries and Wanted description from FW to Degenfeld, the squint also shows up in Formey, who was published and available at the time. In fact, Felis turned up something from 1790 that what we both agree is a recounting of Formey's eulogy.
Meanwhile, cool things I found in the Adresskalender: our envoys! Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725, but no indication of where that was. But given that he was a "creature of Flemming" per Stratemann, that makes sense. Is that like the Saxon embassy? Stratemann is also listed, as is Düburgee (another spelling!), as is Lovenohr.
Katte! In 1730, is living "auf der Dorotheenstatt unter der Linden in Reichmanns hause." This is probably in Kloosterhuis (update: checked, and yes, it is), but it's cool to see it in the address book. Oh, man, right next to him in the address book, i.e. alphabetically, not geographically next door, is preacher Muller. :/
Oh, look, it's the whole Gens d'Armes section. Katte's listed because he's an adjutant. There's Natzmer and Pannewitz, and oh! There's a Major Schenck and a Major Schack, no wonder Wilhelmine and Pollnitz got confused in their memoirs over who was responsible for carrying out Katte's execution.
[Argh, premature submission.]
Also,
If I didn't have to give a presentation at work in an hour, I'd keep hunting, but I need to stop here. For now. :D
I have to say, I didn't imagine that Selena would read a book on Gundling and
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 04:21 pm (UTC)Ha, it doesn't, it links to the Berlin StaBi, which is where the other issues are as well. The ZLB overview page just didn't link to them for some incomprehensible reason, what the heck. *shakes head*
(Just so we don't work double here: I'll have a look at the missing ten years for the Keith family later, will report back.)
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend. (Heads up: north = down here, but there's a georeferenced version down the page as well.)
Just out of interest, I looked up two of Lehndorff's addresses on there and he moved from somewhere around Jägerbrücke (which is the one leading away from the Jägerhof) to a place next to the Zeughaus (= "Arsenal" on the plan, i.e. right next to Heinrich's Palais).
still confused by Frau von Knyphausen being listed until 1754
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I have to say, I didn't imagine that Selena would read a book on Gundling and felis would turn this into tracking down Keith residences for me. Now that's what I call alchemy!
Heh, I was thinking something similar. I'd never have thought to look for it if Selena hadn't reported on Sabrow's research work.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 04:56 pm (UTC)Of course he did. :) Though out of interest, when? Because that Palais took an eternity to be build, and I don't think Heinrich actually lived there before the 7 Years War ended.
Also, clearly we owe Sabrow. <3
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 05:21 pm (UTC)Of course he did. :)
Heh, my thought exactly. Though to be fair, if you look at the plan, it's all really close together anyway, and I have no idea which of the houses "behind the Zeughaus" was the one he lived in. If it was one of the ones at the water, he had a free line of sight towards the Palais, though!
Also, while looking for the Keith son, I saw in passing that he still had "hinterm Zeughause" as his address in 1788, so no other moves apparently!
Adresses
Date: 2021-03-26 06:02 am (UTC)BTW: where does Charles Hanbury Williams live in his one year of being an envoy and developing a mutual hate-on with Fritz (and becoming bff with young Poniatowski)? (1750-1751) And by contrast, everyone's favourite British envoy Andrew Mitchell? (When he's not with Fritz and Heinrich on the front lines, that is.)
Re: Adresses
Date: 2021-03-26 11:59 am (UTC)Mitchell:
1757-62: "vor dem Spandauer Thor in der Commandanten-Strasse in des Herrn Obristen von Königsmark Hause" - the 1748 plan doesn't have that street name, but the Spandauer Gate is right next to Monbijou I see
1763: "auf der Friedrichstadt in der Schützenstrasse in der Feld-Marschallin von Schmettau Hause" - Feld-Marschall Schmettau was with AW, wasn't he? Anyway, the street is three blocks southwest of the Jägerhof, parallel to Leipziger/Kronenstrasse where Knobelsdorff used to live.
1764ff: "am Gens d'Armes-Marckt in dem Bodenschen Hause" - well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan (and according to wiki wasn't officially named that until 1799), there it's still "Mittelmarckt", right across the Jägerbrücke
(Which reminds me, the "Marcktkirche" there = later Neue Kirche (where Knobelsdorff and Pesne were buried, simultaneously Calvinist and Lutheran, might be a contender for Peter as well) = Deutscher Dom today. Its newly built tower collapsed in 1781, so Fritz fired Gontard, who was responsible for the construction.)
Envoy addresses
Date: 2021-03-26 02:13 pm (UTC)I see that Lynar in 1730 is not living in the Flemming house, and if Suhm was living elsewhere before 1725, then I'm guessing they just lived wherever and there wasn't a Saxon "residence" for envoys in Berlin. Unlike when Suhm inherited Lynar's house in St. Petersburg.
- well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan
I had naturally looked this up already on the map and had found the same thing. :)
Btw, I don't see an envoy either to Brunswick or from Brunswick in 1741, and 1740 is missing. I was hoping to find out who Stratemann's successor was, since I still consider him a candidate for Manteuffel's "Anonymous."
Re: Adresses
Date: 2021-03-26 04:32 pm (UTC)Figures that Hanbury Williams would be the envoy furthest away from all the action!
The Schmettaus
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From:Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 05:11 pm (UTC)[1775-1776: Geheime Staatskanzlei + Royal Envoy at foreign courts: Peter Carl v. Keith, Legations-Rath, Königlicher Kammerherr and Envoyé Extraordinaire at the Turin Court, is absent [therefore no adress]]
1777/78: same as 1776
1779-83: listed in the Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse"
in the Geheime Staatskanzlei section: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse im Dammschen Hause"
1784-87: Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, "s. Geheime Staatskanzlei"
Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, "Taubenstraße im Friedelschen Hause"
+ 1787: Widow Keith mentioned for the first time
1788: the court mention finally changes from "Peter Carl" to "Ernst Reinhard Carl"
[1788-1791: Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. K., Legationsrath, lives at Taubenstr. im Friedelschen Hause
and also: Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace]
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
--
ETA: More findings:
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well and there it specifies "in Cölln am Wasser", which is a designation that can be found at the south end of the "island" with the Palace on it (i.e. at the top in the 1748 plan). (And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name. But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.)
I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof
Yeah, seems likely. If you look at the 1748 plan, there's a small street that runs parallel to Brüderstrasse (and turns into "Cölln am Wasser" at the end!) and there are definitely houses there, so that's a possibility I guess.
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748. The Kalender has its own section for "Jägerey", which has the Hunting Office itself "auf dem Jägerhofe Obere Wallstrasse", a couple of lower officials all living "Königlicher Jägerhof in der Kleinen Jägerstrasse", one guy living "auf einem Flügel [wing] am Jägerhofe", and the Oberjägermeister usually living "auf dem Großen Jägerhofe in der Großen Jägerstrasse", i.e. where the Keith brothers live in 1765.
Now, I found out (via the Hohenzollern Yearbook) that the Oberjägermeister Schlieben died in 1748 and that there was a reshuffling of responsibilities, most importantly, a separation of the hunting and the forestry division. (Raumer even mentions that both the hunting and the forestry office stayed at Jägerhof for a while even after part of the building, i.e. the Große Jägerstrasse side, was turned into a bank.) Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities? Just speculation. Schwerin, the third guy mentioned by Raumer together with Knobelsdorff and Peter in ~1742, did apparently live there at some point, but then again, he was Landesjägermeister.
Schlieben's successor as Oberjägermeister only had the office from June 1749 to January 1750 and neither did he get to do anything nor did he live at the Jägerhof is seems, but the guy after him, Schmettau, did. He was in office until 1753 and after that it was Baron Grapendorf, for decades, who never lived at the Jägerhof but had his own house elsewhere, so even if there was only one apartment at the Große Jägerstrasse side, it might have been free for Ariane and the kids to move into.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 12:06 am (UTC)In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard "Call me whatever" Keith. :P
I was starting to question myself as well, except that I've seen two different reliable sources (Prussian archives and this volume refer to the Sardinian envoy 1774-1778 as Peter Carl von Keith or Carl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, and given that Carl Ernst's father's name was Peter Karl...
I guess he just went by different names!
It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned.
Btw, correcting my original post: they clearly didn't own it, but they had it as "lebenslängliche Wohnung." Is there a way to interpret that, e.g. "property", by which they didn't own it but also didn't live there in 1756?
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well
I checked 1729 (yes) and 1730 (not listed--as expected, since he's now a private citizen), but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions. This is awesome! :D
Also: almost certainly not the Count Field Marshal Flemming of Saxony! (That had confused me, and I was almost certain it was a different Flemming, one of many, but then he had the right titles...but! Researching governors of Berlin has led me to find a different Field Marshal Count Flemming, and he was governor of Berlin until 1706, so likely him. Also, Wikipedia tells me that Saxon minister Field Marshal Count Flemming, boss of Suhm, is the nephew of Berlin governor Field Marshal Count Flemming, in whose house Suhm is probably living. Apparently, nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice.)
And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name.
I did notice!
But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.
Evidently!
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748.
I know that in subsequent decades/centuries they expanded it until they couldn't expand it, and they had to move it, but I didn't know how big it was when Peter was living there. Good to know! Maybe he had an apartment (or office) there and also in the Knyphausen house.
Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities?
I had always thought that, it was my first guess ~a year ago, when we first located the Jägerhof. And now that we know that he was involved from at least 1742, it seems likely!
Flemming
Date: 2021-03-26 05:30 am (UTC)Btw, Manteuffel being from Pomerania means, of course, that his family estate is in Pomerania, which means that when he realises which way the wind is blowing and moves his papers from Dresden to his estate in 1730 so when he hands in his resignation papers, Hoym won't find them at his office anymore, he actually has brought them across the border and into Prussian territory, so Hoym can't send a search party after him, either. And it's why FW can have a stopover at Kummerfrey in 1731 without making a state visit to Saxony in that year; he's traveling through Pomerania on one of his inspection tours.
Re: Flemming
Date: 2021-03-26 01:18 pm (UTC)And then, yes, Saxon minister Flemming had switched from Brandenburg service to Saxon.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 10:24 am (UTC)Oh, hey, I hadn't seen this one before! Basically checks out when compared with Kalender data, nice. But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
"lebenslängliche Wohnung."
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live. (No idea if that means that they could have rented to someone else as well if they didn't live there themselves, but given that it wasn't their property, I rather doubt it?)
but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions.
To clarify here: "Cölln" is the name for the pre-Berlin town on the Spree Island and the name for the historical city district in the same place, so it refers to the whole island. So I guess that "am Wasser" means the entire street along the waterside, which is where both Suhm and Peter lived. Since that's a looong street, I suspect Peter's address got the "behind Brüderstrasse" for clarification, but I'm not so sure that Suhm actually lived at the southern tip, because "Cölln am Wasser" should mean the whole street around the southern part of the island and maybe at the very end is just where Schmettau* decided to write the street name. So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed. (I hope this makes sense.)
But speaking of historical districts, "Friedrichswerder" is the one with the Jägerhof in it, and "Dorotheenstadt" the one with the long Unter den Linden alley. See here for an overview. (Also, pre-1725, Suhm actually lived in Spandauer Strasse, which was located in the historical Berlin district that gave the whole city its name, to the east (number I).)
*plan-writer Schmettau btw = one of Peter's three curator collegues at the Academy
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 05:23 pm (UTC)Yeah, it's been my main source on the son for a while. Apparently, the only thing the author knows about Peter's death is that it was before 1763, though!
But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
Apparently!
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live.
That does make sense. And I guess if you have a place you own and can sell/rent for ready cash, and a place you can live without paying, that makes financial sense when your breadwinner dies unexpectedly.
So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed.
Thank you for clarifying Berlin historical geography! In that case, I guess what I pinpointed was the words "Cölln am Wasser" on the map, lol.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-01 05:24 pm (UTC)It occurred to me that I'm an idiot and Ariane was great governess at Luise's court of course. Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death. *headdesk* Kind of makes me wonder how she got the job.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-02 10:21 am (UTC)Yes and no. One generation earlier: far as I recall, Lehndorff refers to SD as Queen more often than "Queen Mother" during her son's reign, and when he wants to set SD and EC apart, he calls EC "The reigning Queen" or "The young Queen", and SD "The old Queen". So it might have been handled similarly in FW2's era, with Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt being "the reigning Queen" and EC "the old Queen" (as she couldn't be "the Queen Mother" anyway).
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-02 10:22 am (UTC)Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 10:46 pm (UTC)Did not notice that in my haste. I guess linking is the important part!
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend.
You know I did! Thanks so much! And 1748 is such a perfect year for our interests.
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I had considered that as a possibility, yeah. I mean, it's been a long time since Nicolai lived at Brüderstraße 13, but we still call it that to this day! And if Frau von Knyphausen owned it and Peter and/or Ariane inherited it from her...Makes sense.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 05:19 pm (UTC)LOL on all the different spellings for the English envoy.
Katte: has a good address he lives unter den Linden. Well, both his father and grandfather are loaded in cash. And Müller, gulp.
There's a Major Schenck and a Major Schack, no wonder Wilhelmine and Pollnitz got confused in their memoirs over who was responsible for carrying out Katte's execution.
They didn't have the Berlin address book!
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 10:50 pm (UTC)Curses! Is it perhaps in the preview?
I know that Suhm inherited Lynar's (the previous and subsequent Saxon envoy to Russia, he of the threesomes with Anna Leopoldovna and Mengden) house in St. Petersburg, the one that almost burned down twice. It would make sense if the envoys tended to gravitate toward or were assigned a specific dwelling.
ETA: Speaking of Manteuffel, though, looking for the preview led me to this: Briefwechsel zwischen Christian Wolff und Ernst Christoph von Manteuffel, 1738-1748. 3 volume historical critical edition, totally in the Munich Stabi.
They didn't have the Berlin address book!
Clearly!
LOL on all the different spellings for the English envoy.
Løvenørn has more! And Peter Ernst Carl Reinhardt, himself an envoy, is catching up in his own way. :D
ETA:
Katte: has a good address he lives unter den Linden. Well, both his father and grandfather are loaded in cash.
Speaking of Grandpa Wartensleben, in 1730, he's the governor of Berlin, and he lives "auf dem Friedrichs-Werder, in des Gouverneurs Hause." Kloosterhuis confirms that this is where Katte was born. I see Wartensleben's been governor since 1702. The Gouverneurs Haus is not to be confused with the later Gouverneurshaus, erected in 1721 and only used as a governor's house starting in 1732, so not the one listed on our 1748 map.
1730 map, please! :D ;)
Nothing to do with Jägerhof at all
Date: 2021-03-26 06:26 am (UTC)As for the corresponendence, I'll get around to it, but only after Easter. Ordering always takes a few days, and next week I'm off to spend the Easter Holidays with the APs. I don't want a parcel with Stabi books standing around unsupervised in the floor!
It would make sense if the envoys tended to gravitate toward or were assigned a specific dwelling.
Especially since it's there to have when the previous envoy moves out anyway, and also if you move to a new place, even if you bring some of your own servants and staff, you will inevitably also hire some locals. (For laundry, food delivery etc.) It's much more convenient to use already established connections than for you or your steward having to find the people in question in the first place.
Speaking of 1730: I briefly wondered where Doris Ritter lived to take those fatal chaperoned strolls with Fritz, but then I recalled she was in Potsdam, not Berlin. Checking wiki again, Doris Ritter's father Matthias was headmaster at the Potsdam grammar school and choirmaster at St. Nikolai, which is the same church where Gundling will be buried in April 1731.
...now I wonder whether Dad Ritter when his boss was one of the valiant five to take a stand against FW either tried to talk him out of it (what if he has you whipped, too?) or encouraged him (At least this time, show the bastard!).
Anyway, Doris living in Potsdam, not Berlin, means both the strolls and the shared music playing must have taken place there as well.
Re: Nothing to do with Jägerhof at all
Date: 2021-03-26 10:35 am (UTC)Nitpick time: He was buried in the Bornstedter church, beyond Sanssouci. The Nicolaikirche was just where the funeral service took place and it's the huge dome right next to the Town Palace.
Oh, and the Adresskalender is actually for Berlin and Potsdam both, but I don't see a Ritter in 1729 or 1730, so her father's position must not have been important enough to be included.
Re: Nothing to do with Jägerhof at all
Date: 2021-03-26 04:45 pm (UTC)Wiki says they only moved to Potsdam in 1728 when he got the job(s), - they lived in Perleberg before that - , so perhaps that's why he didn't make the 1729 address book yet. In 1730, otoh, he lost his job at the school immediately in September when Doris was whipped. I do hope he wasn't fired at the church as well, but wiki doesn't say. So the family might have had to move again.
Re: Nothing to do with Jägerhof at all
Date: 2021-03-26 05:26 pm (UTC)Understood and agreed! No rush, no one is *dying* to know what Manteuffel said to Wolff in their three volumes of correspondence. ;) I just wanted to let you know it's out there, because you've Pavlovianly conditioned me that if I bring your attention to a book that you have access to, I will find out what's in that book without any effort on my part. <3 Enjoy your holidays!
Re: Nothing to do with Jägerhof at all
Date: 2021-03-27 06:49 am (UTC)Re: Nothing to do with Jägerhof at all
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