Also, felis, I found your missing 1777-1787 years! Munich Stabi has them!
Ha, it doesn't, it links to the Berlin StaBi, which is where the other issues are as well. The ZLB overview page just didn't link to them for some incomprehensible reason, what the heck. *shakes head*
(Just so we don't work double here: I'll have a look at the missing ten years for the Keith family later, will report back.)
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend. (Heads up: north = down here, but there's a georeferenced version down the page as well.) Just out of interest, I looked up two of Lehndorff's addresses on there and he moved from somewhere around Jägerbrücke (which is the one leading away from the Jägerhof) to a place next to the Zeughaus (= "Arsenal" on the plan, i.e. right next to Heinrich's Palais).
still confused by Frau von Knyphausen being listed until 1754
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I have to say, I didn't imagine that Selena would read a book on Gundling and felis would turn this into tracking down Keith residences for me. Now that's what I call alchemy!
Heh, I was thinking something similar. I'd never have thought to look for it if Selena hadn't reported on Sabrow's research work.
Just out of interest, I looked up two of Lehndorff's addresses on there and he moved from somewhere around Jägerbrücke (which is the one leading away from the Jägerhof) to a place next to the Zeughaus (= "Arsenal" on the plan, i.e. right next to Heinrich's Palais)
Of course he did. :) Though out of interest, when? Because that Palais took an eternity to be build, and I don't think Heinrich actually lived there before the 7 Years War ended.
These are the start and end points of his 1759 moves (I ignored the couple of months in the middle when he lived somewhere else).
Of course he did. :)
Heh, my thought exactly. Though to be fair, if you look at the plan, it's all really close together anyway, and I have no idea which of the houses "behind the Zeughaus" was the one he lived in. If it was one of the ones at the water, he had a free line of sight towards the Palais, though!
Also, while looking for the Keith son, I saw in passing that he still had "hinterm Zeughause" as his address in 1788, so no other moves apparently!
Well, he mostly lived in East Prussia at his estate from his mid 1770s resignation onwards, with the occasional traveling even to places other than Rheinsberg (as in, Poland accross the border, Karlsbad, Bayreuth, even), and Berlin for the winter. Though at some point he must have sold it because in 1799, he and his entire family have been living in Heinrich's Palais for free for the last two years precisely because he doesn't have a Berlin apartment anymore. (And wants to keep an eye on his sons who are studying now.)
BTW: where does Charles Hanbury Williams live in his one year of being an envoy and developing a mutual hate-on with Fritz (and becoming bff with young Poniatowski)? (1750-1751) And by contrast, everyone's favourite British envoy Andrew Mitchell? (When he's not with Fritz and Heinrich on the front lines, that is.)
Hanbury Williams, only mentioned in 1751 (which makes sense if he was appointed in the middle of the year): "auf der Friderichsstadt in der Potsdammer-Strasse in des Geheimen Rath Sellentius Hause" - which is out west towards Potsdam, close to the Tiergarten. Definitely further away than all the other envoys so far!
Mitchell:
1757-62: "vor dem Spandauer Thor in der Commandanten-Strasse in des Herrn Obristen von Königsmark Hause" - the 1748 plan doesn't have that street name, but the Spandauer Gate is right next to Monbijou I see
1763: "auf der Friedrichstadt in der Schützenstrasse in der Feld-Marschallin von Schmettau Hause" - Feld-Marschall Schmettau was with AW, wasn't he? Anyway, the street is three blocks southwest of the Jägerhof, parallel to Leipziger/Kronenstrasse where Knobelsdorff used to live.
1764ff: "am Gens d'Armes-Marckt in dem Bodenschen Hause" - well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan (and according to wiki wasn't officially named that until 1799), there it's still "Mittelmarckt", right across the Jägerbrücke
(Which reminds me, the "Marcktkirche" there = later Neue Kirche (where Knobelsdorff and Pesne were buried, simultaneously Calvinist and Lutheran, might be a contender for Peter as well) = Deutscher Dom today. Its newly built tower collapsed in 1781, so Fritz fired Gontard, who was responsible for the construction.)
I had not realized Dickens was in Berlin until 1741. But there he is! (Wikipedia agrees.) Also, Wikipedia tells me he had lived in Berlin from 1724, as a secretary at the British embassy, and got officially appointed Secretary to the Prussian court in 1730, which is when he seems to become important enough to make it into the Adresskalender. So he did not, as I'd thought, arrive with Hotham and stay.
I see that Lynar in 1730 is not living in the Flemming house, and if Suhm was living elsewhere before 1725, then I'm guessing they just lived wherever and there wasn't a Saxon "residence" for envoys in Berlin. Unlike when Suhm inherited Lynar's house in St. Petersburg.
- well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan
I had naturally looked this up already on the map and had found the same thing. :)
Btw, I don't see an envoy either to Brunswick or from Brunswick in 1741, and 1740 is missing. I was hoping to find out who Stratemann's successor was, since I still consider him a candidate for Manteuffel's "Anonymous."
Schmettau: he was! Thank you for all the information. Next time I'm in Berlin and at the Gendarmenmarkt, I'll think of Mitchell (and Boswell visiting him there, complete with foot-in-mouth meeting of the Dutch envoy who is visiting simultanously), and visit the church to pay my respects to Knobelsdorff, Pesne and possibly Peter.
Figures that Hanbury Williams would be the envoy furthest away from all the action!
in der Feld-Marschallin von Schmettau Hause" - Feld-Marschall Schmettau was with AW, wasn't he?
Schmettau: he was!
My memory says the Schmettau who was with AW was a Lt. General, and Wikipedia and Ziebura are agreeing. Karl Christoph.
There is a Field Marshal Schmettau named Samuel, who died in 1751, and so the house might still be named after him. Oh, hey, he's the Schmettau who created the first good map of Berlin, in 1748! That's our map. This is cool. He was also, per Wikipedia, the ambassador to Paris before the first Silesian war. And you are correct that he was Peter's colleague as Academy curator until his death in 1751.
Okay, so the guy who created the first good map of Berlin, held the highest possible rank in the military, and was ambassador to France (more prestigious than a lot of other postings, especially when you're negotiating alliances in wartime) almost certainly still has his house named after him ten years after his death.
I see that MacDonogh has confused them too, saying Field Marshal Schmettau was cashiered for his role in the surrender of Dresden in 1759, when that was Lt. General Schmettau.
visit the church to pay my respects to Knobelsdorff, Pesne and possibly Peter.
Which reminds me, I had the Jägerhof marked in my head as the place to pay respects to Peter, even if the building isn't still standing and it's a restaurant, but now we know neither where he died nor where he was buried! I guess the Nicolaihaus is a good replacement candidate for respect paying, since it has a history of its own, and we know for sure he lived there. And I will probably still go by the Jägerhof site and think of Peter and the Tiergarten. ;)
Also, totally paying Peter and Knobelsdorff respects in the Tiergarten next time I'm there! You're not forgotten, guys.
Okay, wiki has reminded me that Knobelsdorff's and Pesne's remains got transferred from the church to one of the cemetaries near the Hallesches Tor in 1881, when the church got renovated. However, the Putto which was on their grave got destroyed in WWII, so after the war the city of Berlin put a new tombstone there:
No mention of Peter that I could see, though, in this register of historical people buried in Berlin and their current day cemetary (which isn't official but someone's work of historical passion, though). Alas I fear by 1881, there probably weren't many who would have known who he was, or cared even if they did. So if felis is right and he was originally buried there, his bones might have stayed there without getting transferred and have long since joined the unnamed dust under the church.
...so it's going to be the Tiergarten and the Nicolaihaus for me, too!
Berlin cemeteries I visited: so far, the ones where the Brothers Grimm are buried (Alter St. Matthäus Friedhof), and the one where Brecht (and Helene Weigel, and Elisabeth Hauptmann, and Ruth Berlau) are buried, the Dorotheenstädtischer Friedhof. I see Knobelsdorff today is in Jerusalem's und Neue Kirche Friedhof I.
Speaking of transferring remains in the 19th century, when the crypt of the Berlin Garrison Church was opened in 1873, Menzel did some corpse portraits, including of James Keith.
Guess whose burial I was googling when I turned this up, many moons ago? ;) Still haven't found him, but the garrison church is another contender, since he was actually an officer, even if an indifferent one.
Alas I fear by 1881, there probably weren't many who would have known who he was, or cared even if they did.
I agree. Nicolaihaus and Tiergarten it is!
So if felis is right and he was originally buried there, his bones might have stayed there without getting transferred and have long since joined the unnamed dust under the church.
I'm okay with that--we all turn to unnamed dust eventually--but I just want to *know*!
That sketch of James Keith's corpse is eerily fascinating. I'm reminded again that most of the Katte bodies except Hans Hermann's got mummified, and his didn't because of the sheer combination of averse factors - standing on the ground, in the spot where all the water collects, after a month in the Küstrin cemetery and cross country transport. (Whereas James Keith as far as I recall was put in the nearby chapel and identified quickly, so could get transported back to Berlin right away.) Looks like in crypts in our climate, mummification happens not that rarely if you're in a crypt?
I was first a bit surprised that Menzel could immediately tell it was James K. from the idealized portraits he was familiar with, given that, say, Fritz' death mask look nothing like his youthful Pesne portraits, but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence:
Oh, and as felis reminded us some months ago, Wilhelmine met James Keith when he lead the Russian troops in 1735 through Bayreuth (en route to the Polish War of Succession) and was very positively impressed.
About Menzel: came a cross a minor Fontane poem celebrating his 70th birthday (On the stairs to Sanssouci, in which he imagines making a winter stroll and encountering Fritz' ghost, who asks what's up with this "Menzelfest", who is Menzel? The poem's "I" explains (praising the huge variety of Menzel's paintings, from social realism to Fritzian illustrations), and Fritz is impressed and decides to offer as his present to Menzel a place in his table round, not right now, of course, but when Menzel wants to have it, he can take as much time as he wants. There's one place free now anyway since Voltaire has left in 1870, being French. (cahn, that's the date of the Franco-Prussian War which led to the founding of the Empire in Versailles (which led to the WWI peace treaty in Versailles, in more than one way.) Menzel can have Voltaire's place among Fritz' companions! That's the end of the poem:
Nur Herr von Voltaire fehlt seit Anno 70;
Franzose, rapplig. Dieser Platz ist frei.
Den reservier' ich ihm. Bestell' Er's. Hört Er?
Ich bin Sein gnäd'ger König. Serviteur!«
When I read that, I thought both that Fontane totally would go for that bodyswitch crack fic, and also, what is it about RPF writers breaking Fritz and Voltaire up in the Hereafter? (Remember, Boie also did that in the "Totengespräche" fic that Bronisch mentions at the end of his dissertation, where Fritz tells Wolff he's been Wolff's padawan, gets introduced to Lessing at last and ditches Voltaire.) I mean, I get wanting to give Menzel the ultimate fanboy reward, and to be sure, the Fritz the 19th century imagined was at least as much formed by Menzel's depictions as by Kugler's and Preuss' writings, but any Fritz (in whichever ghostly state) who's ready to give up Voltaire for good is ooc for me. :)
also, what is it about RPF writers breaking Fritz and Voltaire up in the Hereafter? [...] any Fritz (in whichever ghostly state) who's ready to give up Voltaire for good is ooc for me. :)
Lol! How I imagine Fritz in all of these afterlife RPFs:
Fritz: Good riddance to that conceited bastard. These other writers are way more awesome, anyway! [Five minutes later]: Lessing and Menzel, let me read you this thing Voltaire wrote. Isn't he the absolute WORST? [shouts through the ether] Hey Voltaire, you know you can come back anytime!
Looks like in crypts in our climate, mummification happens not that rarely if you're in a crypt?
Apparently! Though how much of this is embalming? Your climate is the last one I would expect to lead to spontaneous mummification. Though I guess if the tomb is really, really airtight...
but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence
You can! Also, if he was buried with the Order of the Black Eagle, that would help with the identification.
Thank you for the Fontane poem, that was fascinating. I can see why Menzel was disgruntled, but I can also see why Fontane was surprised and thought it would be a great gift.
Fritz/Voltaire, though! If France and Prussia being at war were such an obstacle, then what's with them *reviving* their correspondence right after Prussia got its butt kicked for the first time? And "hero-poet-philosopher-warrior-mischievous-singular-brilliant-proud-modest king" coming 2 months after Rossbach? :P
If Voltaire is leaving the round table, it's for personal reasons. And cahn is right, anyone who stays is going to have to hear about him, at length, repeatedly. :D
Question. If Émilie had lived a few years longer (*sob*), and Voltaire had come to Prussia in 1755 or even 1756, what do you think would have happened when the war started?
Oh, I had not seen these before! Fascinating. Menzel keeps surprising me.
By the way, another Berlin 18th century crypt that was opened and scientifically analyzed pretty recently is the one of the Parochialkirche. From a German article:
All of the buried are members of the reformed Berlin upper class. Different families, some of them aristocratic, some of them middle-class, but always endowed with considerable wealth, shared the tombs. In addition, there have always been individuals who died unexpectedly and found acceptance in the tombs of relatives, friends or work colleagues. With the exception of great governesses and chamber women, there were no professions among the women, which was in line with the usual views at the time. The men were predominantly officials of the court, either as court bakers or stewards responsible for the court society, or as secret councilors or ministers in politics, whereby an accumulation of legally trained people is noticeable. Military personnel were also buried, including many general officers. But we also find scholars such as doctors, professors and students, theologians as well as wealthy merchants and bankers.
Also, regarding the mummification: The climate in the crypt is well suited for a complete mummification due to the well thought-out ventilation system via windows and openings between the chambers. The fact that this process could not always take place is due to the treatment of the deceased before they found their final resting place in the crypt. According to the records in the church registers, an average of three to six days passed from death to burial, for children usually only one day. During this time, the corpse was exposed to the climatic conditions in which the body began to decompose. The warmer the weather, the faster this process went. For this reason, there is a connection between the time of year in which the burial took place and the degree of mummification.
I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows. (One place that might still have the information = old church records (IF they survived WWII), but it seems like none of them are digitized and neither is there a name index, which means that if you want to look someone up, you need to know the church you want and then look at the record in person. ... unless the Mormons got hold of it at some point I guess. :P ETA: WAIT. I totally forgot. Cahn, you don't happen to have access to FamilySearch, do you?)
Ooh, cool, a well designed crypt can dry out the air, that's cool! I was just going with "damp climate" = "not great for mummification." And indeed that was true as far as it went, but the crypt can compensate, awesome. Filing that away.
I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows.
Yeah, I mean, it's not actually much farther from Brüderstrasse and the street behind it on the water than the Neue Kirche, and you have to cross the water to get to either, but who knows.
Walking distance using today's roads from the middle of the street behind Brüderstrasse to:
Neue Kirche: .95 km Parochialkirche: 1.2 km Garnisonkirche: 1.3 km
Neue Kirche is the closest, though! Definitely a contender.
old church records (IF they survived WWII)
I know, I was chatting with my friend right about the time you wrote this, and he was saying that where Peter was buried is probably out there to be found, and I said, "Well. Berlin. WWII. Bombing. Maybe, maybe not!" (I still hope, though.)
Okay, so previous thread on the Keiths and here's what I found for the gap:
[1775-1776: Geheime Staatskanzlei + Royal Envoy at foreign courts: Peter Carl v. Keith, Legations-Rath, Königlicher Kammerherr and Envoyé Extraordinaire at the Turin Court, is absent [therefore no adress]]
1777/78: same as 1776
1779-83: listed in the Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse" in the Geheime Staatskanzlei section: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse im Dammschen Hause"
1784-87: Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, "s. Geheime Staatskanzlei" Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, "Taubenstraße im Friedelschen Hause" + 1787: Widow Keith mentioned for the first time
1788: the court mention finally changes from "Peter Carl" to "Ernst Reinhard Carl"
[1788-1791: Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. K., Legationsrath, lives at Taubenstr. im Friedelschen Hause and also: Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace]
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
--
ETA: More findings:
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well and there it specifies "in Cölln am Wasser", which is a designation that can be found at the south end of the "island" with the Palace on it (i.e. at the top in the 1748 plan). (And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name. But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.)
I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof
Yeah, seems likely. If you look at the 1748 plan, there's a small street that runs parallel to Brüderstrasse (and turns into "Cölln am Wasser" at the end!) and there are definitely houses there, so that's a possibility I guess.
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748. The Kalender has its own section for "Jägerey", which has the Hunting Office itself "auf dem Jägerhofe Obere Wallstrasse", a couple of lower officials all living "Königlicher Jägerhof in der Kleinen Jägerstrasse", one guy living "auf einem Flügel [wing] am Jägerhofe", and the Oberjägermeister usually living "auf dem Großen Jägerhofe in der Großen Jägerstrasse", i.e. where the Keith brothers live in 1765.
Now, I found out (via the Hohenzollern Yearbook) that the Oberjägermeister Schlieben died in 1748 and that there was a reshuffling of responsibilities, most importantly, a separation of the hunting and the forestry division. (Raumer even mentions that both the hunting and the forestry office stayed at Jägerhof for a while even after part of the building, i.e. the Große Jägerstrasse side, was turned into a bank.) Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities? Just speculation. Schwerin, the third guy mentioned by Raumer together with Knobelsdorff and Peter in ~1742, did apparently live there at some point, but then again, he was Landesjägermeister. Schlieben's successor as Oberjägermeister only had the office from June 1749 to January 1750 and neither did he get to do anything nor did he live at the Jägerhof is seems, but the guy after him, Schmettau, did. He was in office until 1753 and after that it was Baron Grapendorf, for decades, who never lived at the Jägerhof but had his own house elsewhere, so even if there was only one apartment at the Große Jägerstrasse side, it might have been free for Ariane and the kids to move into.
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard "Call me whatever" Keith. :P
I was starting to question myself as well, except that I've seen two different reliable sources (Prussian archives and this volume refer to the Sardinian envoy 1774-1778 as Peter Carl von Keith or Carl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, and given that Carl Ernst's father's name was Peter Karl...
I guess he just went by different names!
It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned.
Btw, correcting my original post: they clearly didn't own it, but they had it as "lebenslängliche Wohnung." Is there a way to interpret that, e.g. "property", by which they didn't own it but also didn't live there in 1756?
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well
I checked 1729 (yes) and 1730 (not listed--as expected, since he's now a private citizen), but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions. This is awesome! :D
Also: almost certainly not the Count Field Marshal Flemming of Saxony! (That had confused me, and I was almost certain it was a different Flemming, one of many, but then he had the right titles...but! Researching governors of Berlin has led me to find a different Field Marshal Count Flemming, and he was governor of Berlin until 1706, so likely him. Also, Wikipedia tells me that Saxon minister Field Marshal Count Flemming, boss of Suhm, is the nephew of Berlin governor Field Marshal Count Flemming, in whose house Suhm is probably living. Apparently, nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice.)
And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name.
I did notice!
But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.
Evidently!
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748.
I know that in subsequent decades/centuries they expanded it until they couldn't expand it, and they had to move it, but I didn't know how big it was when Peter was living there. Good to know! Maybe he had an apartment (or office) there and also in the Knyphausen house.
Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities?
I had always thought that, it was my first guess ~a year ago, when we first located the Jägerhof. And now that we know that he was involved from at least 1742, it seems likely!
Sidenote here: Flemming the mighty Saxon minister was, like Manteuffel, actually from Pomerania (birthplace of honest honest folk who never lie), so it's not surprising if his nephew or uncle was in Prussian service, it's Flemming the minister who is the one leaving Prussia for Saxony. It would also makes sense if he stored his Berlin envoys with a relation.
Btw, Manteuffel being from Pomerania means, of course, that his family estate is in Pomerania, which means that when he realises which way the wind is blowing and moves his papers from Dresden to his estate in 1730 so when he hands in his resignation papers, Hoym won't find them at his office anymore, he actually has brought them across the border and into Prussian territory, so Hoym can't send a search party after him, either. And it's why FW can have a stopover at Kummerfrey in 1731 without making a state visit to Saxony in that year; he's traveling through Pomerania on one of his inspection tours.
Argh, after I went to bed I realized I had typed "nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice" instead of "uncle guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg service." But apparently it's more complicated than that: as you point out, he started in Brandenburg, switched to imperial service, switched to Brunswick service, switched to Saxon service, and then returned to Brandenburg service, which was when he got the final promotions, to governor of Berlin and field marshal, and why I had homed in on that particular stage of his service-switching.
And then, yes, Saxon minister Flemming had switched from Brandenburg service to Saxon.
Oh, hey, I hadn't seen this one before! Basically checks out when compared with Kalender data, nice. But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
"lebenslängliche Wohnung."
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live. (No idea if that means that they could have rented to someone else as well if they didn't live there themselves, but given that it wasn't their property, I rather doubt it?)
but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions.
To clarify here: "Cölln" is the name for the pre-Berlin town on the Spree Island and the name for the historical city district in the same place, so it refers to the whole island. So I guess that "am Wasser" means the entire street along the waterside, which is where both Suhm and Peter lived. Since that's a looong street, I suspect Peter's address got the "behind Brüderstrasse" for clarification, but I'm not so sure that Suhm actually lived at the southern tip, because "Cölln am Wasser" should mean the whole street around the southern part of the island and maybe at the very end is just where Schmettau* decided to write the street name. So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed. (I hope this makes sense.) But speaking of historical districts, "Friedrichswerder" is the one with the Jägerhof in it, and "Dorotheenstadt" the one with the long Unter den Linden alley. See here for an overview. (Also, pre-1725, Suhm actually lived in Spandauer Strasse, which was located in the historical Berlin district that gave the whole city its name, to the east (number I).)
*plan-writer Schmettau btw = one of Peter's three curator collegues at the Academy
Yeah, it's been my main source on the son for a while. Apparently, the only thing the author knows about Peter's death is that it was before 1763, though!
But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
Apparently!
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live.
That does make sense. And I guess if you have a place you own and can sell/rent for ready cash, and a place you can live without paying, that makes financial sense when your breadwinner dies unexpectedly.
So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed.
Thank you for clarifying Berlin historical geography! In that case, I guess what I pinpointed was the words "Cölln am Wasser" on the map, lol.
Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace
It occurred to me that I'm an idiot and Ariane was great governess at Luise's court of course. Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death. *headdesk* Kind of makes me wonder how she got the job.
Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death.
Yes and no. One generation earlier: far as I recall, Lehndorff refers to SD as Queen more often than "Queen Mother" during her son's reign, and when he wants to set SD and EC apart, he calls EC "The reigning Queen" or "The young Queen", and SD "The old Queen". So it might have been handled similarly in FW2's era, with Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt being "the reigning Queen" and EC "the old Queen" (as she couldn't be "the Queen Mother" anyway).
Ha, it doesn't, it links to the Berlin StaBi, which is where the other issues are as well.
Did not notice that in my haste. I guess linking is the important part!
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend.
You know I did! Thanks so much! And 1748 is such a perfect year for our interests.
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I had considered that as a possibility, yeah. I mean, it's been a long time since Nicolai lived at Brüderstraße 13, but we still call it that to this day! And if Frau von Knyphausen owned it and Peter and/or Ariane inherited it from her...Makes sense.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 04:21 pm (UTC)Ha, it doesn't, it links to the Berlin StaBi, which is where the other issues are as well. The ZLB overview page just didn't link to them for some incomprehensible reason, what the heck. *shakes head*
(Just so we don't work double here: I'll have a look at the missing ten years for the Keith family later, will report back.)
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend. (Heads up: north = down here, but there's a georeferenced version down the page as well.)
Just out of interest, I looked up two of Lehndorff's addresses on there and he moved from somewhere around Jägerbrücke (which is the one leading away from the Jägerhof) to a place next to the Zeughaus (= "Arsenal" on the plan, i.e. right next to Heinrich's Palais).
still confused by Frau von Knyphausen being listed until 1754
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I have to say, I didn't imagine that Selena would read a book on Gundling and felis would turn this into tracking down Keith residences for me. Now that's what I call alchemy!
Heh, I was thinking something similar. I'd never have thought to look for it if Selena hadn't reported on Sabrow's research work.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 04:56 pm (UTC)Of course he did. :) Though out of interest, when? Because that Palais took an eternity to be build, and I don't think Heinrich actually lived there before the 7 Years War ended.
Also, clearly we owe Sabrow. <3
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 05:21 pm (UTC)Of course he did. :)
Heh, my thought exactly. Though to be fair, if you look at the plan, it's all really close together anyway, and I have no idea which of the houses "behind the Zeughaus" was the one he lived in. If it was one of the ones at the water, he had a free line of sight towards the Palais, though!
Also, while looking for the Keith son, I saw in passing that he still had "hinterm Zeughause" as his address in 1788, so no other moves apparently!
Adresses
Date: 2021-03-26 06:02 am (UTC)BTW: where does Charles Hanbury Williams live in his one year of being an envoy and developing a mutual hate-on with Fritz (and becoming bff with young Poniatowski)? (1750-1751) And by contrast, everyone's favourite British envoy Andrew Mitchell? (When he's not with Fritz and Heinrich on the front lines, that is.)
Re: Adresses
Date: 2021-03-26 11:59 am (UTC)Mitchell:
1757-62: "vor dem Spandauer Thor in der Commandanten-Strasse in des Herrn Obristen von Königsmark Hause" - the 1748 plan doesn't have that street name, but the Spandauer Gate is right next to Monbijou I see
1763: "auf der Friedrichstadt in der Schützenstrasse in der Feld-Marschallin von Schmettau Hause" - Feld-Marschall Schmettau was with AW, wasn't he? Anyway, the street is three blocks southwest of the Jägerhof, parallel to Leipziger/Kronenstrasse where Knobelsdorff used to live.
1764ff: "am Gens d'Armes-Marckt in dem Bodenschen Hause" - well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan (and according to wiki wasn't officially named that until 1799), there it's still "Mittelmarckt", right across the Jägerbrücke
(Which reminds me, the "Marcktkirche" there = later Neue Kirche (where Knobelsdorff and Pesne were buried, simultaneously Calvinist and Lutheran, might be a contender for Peter as well) = Deutscher Dom today. Its newly built tower collapsed in 1781, so Fritz fired Gontard, who was responsible for the construction.)
Envoy addresses
Date: 2021-03-26 02:13 pm (UTC)I see that Lynar in 1730 is not living in the Flemming house, and if Suhm was living elsewhere before 1725, then I'm guessing they just lived wherever and there wasn't a Saxon "residence" for envoys in Berlin. Unlike when Suhm inherited Lynar's house in St. Petersburg.
- well, Gendarmenmarkt is clear I'd say, although it isn't called that on the 1748 plan
I had naturally looked this up already on the map and had found the same thing. :)
Btw, I don't see an envoy either to Brunswick or from Brunswick in 1741, and 1740 is missing. I was hoping to find out who Stratemann's successor was, since I still consider him a candidate for Manteuffel's "Anonymous."
Re: Adresses
Date: 2021-03-26 04:32 pm (UTC)Figures that Hanbury Williams would be the envoy furthest away from all the action!
The Schmettaus
Date: 2021-03-26 05:13 pm (UTC)Schmettau: he was!
My memory says the Schmettau who was with AW was a Lt. General, and Wikipedia and Ziebura are agreeing. Karl Christoph.
There is a Field Marshal Schmettau named Samuel, who died in 1751, and so the house might still be named after him. Oh, hey, he's the Schmettau who created the first good map of Berlin, in 1748! That's our map. This is cool. He was also, per Wikipedia, the ambassador to Paris before the first Silesian war. And you are correct that he was Peter's colleague as Academy curator until his death in 1751.
Okay, so the guy who created the first good map of Berlin, held the highest possible rank in the military, and was ambassador to France (more prestigious than a lot of other postings, especially when you're negotiating alliances in wartime) almost certainly still has his house named after him ten years after his death.
I see that MacDonogh has confused them too, saying Field Marshal Schmettau was cashiered for his role in the surrender of Dresden in 1759, when that was Lt. General Schmettau.
visit the church to pay my respects to Knobelsdorff, Pesne and possibly Peter.
Which reminds me, I had the Jägerhof marked in my head as the place to pay respects to Peter, even if the building isn't still standing and it's a restaurant, but now we know neither where he died nor where he was buried! I guess the Nicolaihaus is a good replacement candidate for respect paying, since it has a history of its own, and we know for sure he lived there. And I will probably still go by the Jägerhof site and think of Peter and the Tiergarten. ;)
Also, totally paying Peter and Knobelsdorff respects in the Tiergarten next time I'm there! You're not forgotten, guys.
Re: The Schmettaus
Date: 2021-03-26 05:29 pm (UTC)No mention of Peter that I could see, though, in this register of historical people buried in Berlin and their current day cemetary (which isn't official but someone's work of historical passion, though). Alas I fear by 1881, there probably weren't many who would have known who he was, or cared even if they did. So if
...so it's going to be the Tiergarten and the Nicolaihaus for me, too!
Berlin cemeteries I visited: so far, the ones where the Brothers Grimm are buried (Alter St. Matthäus Friedhof), and the one where Brecht (and Helene Weigel, and Elisabeth Hauptmann, and Ruth Berlau) are buried, the Dorotheenstädtischer Friedhof. I see Knobelsdorff today is in Jerusalem's und Neue Kirche Friedhof I.
Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-26 06:12 pm (UTC)Guess whose burial I was googling when I turned this up, many moons ago? ;) Still haven't found him, but the garrison church is another contender, since he was actually an officer, even if an indifferent one.
Alas I fear by 1881, there probably weren't many who would have known who he was, or cared even if they did.
I agree. Nicolaihaus and Tiergarten it is!
So if felis is right and he was originally buried there, his bones might have stayed there without getting transferred and have long since joined the unnamed dust under the church.
I'm okay with that--we all turn to unnamed dust eventually--but I just want to *know*!
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-27 06:36 am (UTC)I was first a bit surprised that Menzel could immediately tell it was James K. from the idealized portraits he was familiar with, given that, say, Fritz' death mask look nothing like his youthful Pesne portraits, but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence:
Oh, and as
About Menzel: came a cross a minor Fontane poem celebrating his 70th birthday (On the stairs to Sanssouci, in which he imagines making a winter stroll and encountering Fritz' ghost, who asks what's up with this "Menzelfest", who is Menzel? The poem's "I" explains (praising the huge variety of Menzel's paintings, from social realism to Fritzian illustrations), and Fritz is impressed and decides to offer as his present to Menzel a place in his table round, not right now, of course, but when Menzel wants to have it, he can take as much time as he wants. There's one place free now anyway since Voltaire has left in 1870, being French. (
Nur Herr von Voltaire fehlt seit Anno 70;
Franzose, rapplig. Dieser Platz ist frei.
Den reservier' ich ihm. Bestell' Er's. Hört Er?
Ich bin Sein gnäd'ger König. Serviteur!«
When I read that, I thought both that Fontane totally would go for that bodyswitch crack fic, and also, what is it about RPF writers breaking Fritz and Voltaire up in the Hereafter? (Remember, Boie also did that in the "Totengespräche" fic that Bronisch mentions at the end of his dissertation, where Fritz tells Wolff he's been Wolff's padawan, gets introduced to Lessing at last and ditches Voltaire.) I mean, I get wanting to give Menzel the ultimate fanboy reward, and to be sure, the Fritz the 19th century imagined was at least as much formed by Menzel's depictions as by Kugler's and Preuss' writings, but any Fritz (in whichever ghostly state) who's ready to give up Voltaire for good is ooc for me. :)
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 12:32 am (UTC)Lol! How I imagine Fritz in all of these afterlife RPFs:
Fritz: Good riddance to that conceited bastard. These other writers are way more awesome, anyway!
[Five minutes later]: Lessing and Menzel, let me read you this thing Voltaire wrote. Isn't he the absolute WORST? [shouts through the ether] Hey Voltaire, you know you can come back anytime!
Re: Corpse portraits
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Date: 2021-03-28 12:35 pm (UTC)Apparently! Though how much of this is embalming? Your climate is the last one I would expect to lead to spontaneous mummification. Though I guess if the tomb is really, really airtight...
but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence
You can! Also, if he was buried with the Order of the Black Eagle, that would help with the identification.
Thank you for the Fontane poem, that was fascinating. I can see why Menzel was disgruntled, but I can also see why Fontane was surprised and thought it would be a great gift.
Fritz/Voltaire, though! If France and Prussia being at war were such an obstacle, then what's with them *reviving* their correspondence right after Prussia got its butt kicked for the first time? And "hero-poet-philosopher-warrior-mischievous-singular-brilliant-proud-modest king" coming 2 months after Rossbach? :P
If Voltaire is leaving the round table, it's for personal reasons. And
Question. If Émilie had lived a few years longer (*sob*), and Voltaire had come to Prussia in 1755 or even 1756, what do you think would have happened when the war started?
Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
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From:Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 08:30 pm (UTC)By the way, another Berlin 18th century crypt that was opened and scientifically analyzed pretty recently is the one of the Parochialkirche. From a German article:
All of the buried are members of the reformed Berlin upper class. Different families, some of them aristocratic, some of them middle-class, but always endowed with considerable wealth, shared the tombs. In addition, there have always been individuals who died unexpectedly and found acceptance in the tombs of relatives, friends or work colleagues. With the exception of great governesses and chamber women, there were no professions among the women, which was in line with the usual views at the time. The men were predominantly officials of the court, either as court bakers or stewards responsible for the court society, or as secret councilors or ministers in politics, whereby an accumulation of legally trained people is noticeable. Military personnel were also buried, including many general officers. But we also find scholars such as doctors, professors and students, theologians as well as wealthy merchants and bankers.
Also, regarding the mummification: The climate in the crypt is well suited for a complete mummification due to the well thought-out ventilation system via windows and openings between the chambers. The fact that this process could not always take place is due to the treatment of the deceased before they found their final resting place in the crypt. According to the records in the church registers, an average of three to six days passed from death to burial, for children usually only one day. During this time, the corpse was exposed to the climatic conditions in which the body began to decompose. The warmer the weather, the faster this process went. For this reason, there is a connection between the time of year in which the burial took place and the degree of mummification.
I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows. (One place that might still have the information = old church records (IF they survived WWII), but it seems like none of them are digitized and neither is there a name index, which means that if you want to look someone up, you need to know the church you want and then look at the record in person. ... unless the Mormons got hold of it at some point I guess. :P ETA: WAIT. I totally forgot. Cahn, you don't happen to have access to FamilySearch, do you?)
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 10:18 pm (UTC)I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows.
Yeah, I mean, it's not actually much farther from Brüderstrasse and the street behind it on the water than the Neue Kirche, and you have to cross the water to get to either, but who knows.
Walking distance using today's roads from the middle of the street behind Brüderstrasse to:
Neue Kirche: .95 km
Parochialkirche: 1.2 km
Garnisonkirche: 1.3 km
Neue Kirche is the closest, though! Definitely a contender.
old church records (IF they survived WWII)
I know, I was chatting with my friend right about the time you wrote this, and he was saying that where Peter was buried is probably out there to be found, and I said, "Well. Berlin. WWII. Bombing. Maybe, maybe not!" (I still hope, though.)
Knyphausens?
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From:Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 05:11 pm (UTC)[1775-1776: Geheime Staatskanzlei + Royal Envoy at foreign courts: Peter Carl v. Keith, Legations-Rath, Königlicher Kammerherr and Envoyé Extraordinaire at the Turin Court, is absent [therefore no adress]]
1777/78: same as 1776
1779-83: listed in the Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse"
in the Geheime Staatskanzlei section: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse im Dammschen Hause"
1784-87: Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, "s. Geheime Staatskanzlei"
Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, "Taubenstraße im Friedelschen Hause"
+ 1787: Widow Keith mentioned for the first time
1788: the court mention finally changes from "Peter Carl" to "Ernst Reinhard Carl"
[1788-1791: Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. K., Legationsrath, lives at Taubenstr. im Friedelschen Hause
and also: Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace]
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
--
ETA: More findings:
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well and there it specifies "in Cölln am Wasser", which is a designation that can be found at the south end of the "island" with the Palace on it (i.e. at the top in the 1748 plan). (And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name. But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.)
I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof
Yeah, seems likely. If you look at the 1748 plan, there's a small street that runs parallel to Brüderstrasse (and turns into "Cölln am Wasser" at the end!) and there are definitely houses there, so that's a possibility I guess.
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748. The Kalender has its own section for "Jägerey", which has the Hunting Office itself "auf dem Jägerhofe Obere Wallstrasse", a couple of lower officials all living "Königlicher Jägerhof in der Kleinen Jägerstrasse", one guy living "auf einem Flügel [wing] am Jägerhofe", and the Oberjägermeister usually living "auf dem Großen Jägerhofe in der Großen Jägerstrasse", i.e. where the Keith brothers live in 1765.
Now, I found out (via the Hohenzollern Yearbook) that the Oberjägermeister Schlieben died in 1748 and that there was a reshuffling of responsibilities, most importantly, a separation of the hunting and the forestry division. (Raumer even mentions that both the hunting and the forestry office stayed at Jägerhof for a while even after part of the building, i.e. the Große Jägerstrasse side, was turned into a bank.) Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities? Just speculation. Schwerin, the third guy mentioned by Raumer together with Knobelsdorff and Peter in ~1742, did apparently live there at some point, but then again, he was Landesjägermeister.
Schlieben's successor as Oberjägermeister only had the office from June 1749 to January 1750 and neither did he get to do anything nor did he live at the Jägerhof is seems, but the guy after him, Schmettau, did. He was in office until 1753 and after that it was Baron Grapendorf, for decades, who never lived at the Jägerhof but had his own house elsewhere, so even if there was only one apartment at the Große Jägerstrasse side, it might have been free for Ariane and the kids to move into.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 12:06 am (UTC)In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard "Call me whatever" Keith. :P
I was starting to question myself as well, except that I've seen two different reliable sources (Prussian archives and this volume refer to the Sardinian envoy 1774-1778 as Peter Carl von Keith or Carl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, and given that Carl Ernst's father's name was Peter Karl...
I guess he just went by different names!
It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned.
Btw, correcting my original post: they clearly didn't own it, but they had it as "lebenslängliche Wohnung." Is there a way to interpret that, e.g. "property", by which they didn't own it but also didn't live there in 1756?
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well
I checked 1729 (yes) and 1730 (not listed--as expected, since he's now a private citizen), but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions. This is awesome! :D
Also: almost certainly not the Count Field Marshal Flemming of Saxony! (That had confused me, and I was almost certain it was a different Flemming, one of many, but then he had the right titles...but! Researching governors of Berlin has led me to find a different Field Marshal Count Flemming, and he was governor of Berlin until 1706, so likely him. Also, Wikipedia tells me that Saxon minister Field Marshal Count Flemming, boss of Suhm, is the nephew of Berlin governor Field Marshal Count Flemming, in whose house Suhm is probably living. Apparently, nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice.)
And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name.
I did notice!
But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.
Evidently!
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748.
I know that in subsequent decades/centuries they expanded it until they couldn't expand it, and they had to move it, but I didn't know how big it was when Peter was living there. Good to know! Maybe he had an apartment (or office) there and also in the Knyphausen house.
Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities?
I had always thought that, it was my first guess ~a year ago, when we first located the Jägerhof. And now that we know that he was involved from at least 1742, it seems likely!
Flemming
Date: 2021-03-26 05:30 am (UTC)Btw, Manteuffel being from Pomerania means, of course, that his family estate is in Pomerania, which means that when he realises which way the wind is blowing and moves his papers from Dresden to his estate in 1730 so when he hands in his resignation papers, Hoym won't find them at his office anymore, he actually has brought them across the border and into Prussian territory, so Hoym can't send a search party after him, either. And it's why FW can have a stopover at Kummerfrey in 1731 without making a state visit to Saxony in that year; he's traveling through Pomerania on one of his inspection tours.
Re: Flemming
Date: 2021-03-26 01:18 pm (UTC)And then, yes, Saxon minister Flemming had switched from Brandenburg service to Saxon.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 10:24 am (UTC)Oh, hey, I hadn't seen this one before! Basically checks out when compared with Kalender data, nice. But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
"lebenslängliche Wohnung."
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live. (No idea if that means that they could have rented to someone else as well if they didn't live there themselves, but given that it wasn't their property, I rather doubt it?)
but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions.
To clarify here: "Cölln" is the name for the pre-Berlin town on the Spree Island and the name for the historical city district in the same place, so it refers to the whole island. So I guess that "am Wasser" means the entire street along the waterside, which is where both Suhm and Peter lived. Since that's a looong street, I suspect Peter's address got the "behind Brüderstrasse" for clarification, but I'm not so sure that Suhm actually lived at the southern tip, because "Cölln am Wasser" should mean the whole street around the southern part of the island and maybe at the very end is just where Schmettau* decided to write the street name. So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed. (I hope this makes sense.)
But speaking of historical districts, "Friedrichswerder" is the one with the Jägerhof in it, and "Dorotheenstadt" the one with the long Unter den Linden alley. See here for an overview. (Also, pre-1725, Suhm actually lived in Spandauer Strasse, which was located in the historical Berlin district that gave the whole city its name, to the east (number I).)
*plan-writer Schmettau btw = one of Peter's three curator collegues at the Academy
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 05:23 pm (UTC)Yeah, it's been my main source on the son for a while. Apparently, the only thing the author knows about Peter's death is that it was before 1763, though!
But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
Apparently!
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live.
That does make sense. And I guess if you have a place you own and can sell/rent for ready cash, and a place you can live without paying, that makes financial sense when your breadwinner dies unexpectedly.
So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed.
Thank you for clarifying Berlin historical geography! In that case, I guess what I pinpointed was the words "Cölln am Wasser" on the map, lol.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-01 05:24 pm (UTC)It occurred to me that I'm an idiot and Ariane was great governess at Luise's court of course. Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death. *headdesk* Kind of makes me wonder how she got the job.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-02 10:21 am (UTC)Yes and no. One generation earlier: far as I recall, Lehndorff refers to SD as Queen more often than "Queen Mother" during her son's reign, and when he wants to set SD and EC apart, he calls EC "The reigning Queen" or "The young Queen", and SD "The old Queen". So it might have been handled similarly in FW2's era, with Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt being "the reigning Queen" and EC "the old Queen" (as she couldn't be "the Queen Mother" anyway).
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-02 10:22 am (UTC)Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 10:46 pm (UTC)Did not notice that in my haste. I guess linking is the important part!
Also, if you want a great 1748 Berlin map, the Schmettau Plan de Ville is your friend.
You know I did! Thanks so much! And 1748 is such a perfect year for our interests.
Possibly because that's what the house was known as, even for a few years after her death? ("Knobelsdorff'sches Haus" kept being a thing after his death as well.)
I had considered that as a possibility, yeah. I mean, it's been a long time since Nicolai lived at Brüderstraße 13, but we still call it that to this day! And if Frau von Knyphausen owned it and Peter and/or Ariane inherited it from her...Makes sense.