Speaking of transferring remains in the 19th century, when the crypt of the Berlin Garrison Church was opened in 1873, Menzel did some corpse portraits, including of James Keith.
Guess whose burial I was googling when I turned this up, many moons ago? ;) Still haven't found him, but the garrison church is another contender, since he was actually an officer, even if an indifferent one.
Alas I fear by 1881, there probably weren't many who would have known who he was, or cared even if they did.
I agree. Nicolaihaus and Tiergarten it is!
So if felis is right and he was originally buried there, his bones might have stayed there without getting transferred and have long since joined the unnamed dust under the church.
I'm okay with that--we all turn to unnamed dust eventually--but I just want to *know*!
That sketch of James Keith's corpse is eerily fascinating. I'm reminded again that most of the Katte bodies except Hans Hermann's got mummified, and his didn't because of the sheer combination of averse factors - standing on the ground, in the spot where all the water collects, after a month in the Küstrin cemetery and cross country transport. (Whereas James Keith as far as I recall was put in the nearby chapel and identified quickly, so could get transported back to Berlin right away.) Looks like in crypts in our climate, mummification happens not that rarely if you're in a crypt?
I was first a bit surprised that Menzel could immediately tell it was James K. from the idealized portraits he was familiar with, given that, say, Fritz' death mask look nothing like his youthful Pesne portraits, but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence:
Oh, and as felis reminded us some months ago, Wilhelmine met James Keith when he lead the Russian troops in 1735 through Bayreuth (en route to the Polish War of Succession) and was very positively impressed.
About Menzel: came a cross a minor Fontane poem celebrating his 70th birthday (On the stairs to Sanssouci, in which he imagines making a winter stroll and encountering Fritz' ghost, who asks what's up with this "Menzelfest", who is Menzel? The poem's "I" explains (praising the huge variety of Menzel's paintings, from social realism to Fritzian illustrations), and Fritz is impressed and decides to offer as his present to Menzel a place in his table round, not right now, of course, but when Menzel wants to have it, he can take as much time as he wants. There's one place free now anyway since Voltaire has left in 1870, being French. (cahn, that's the date of the Franco-Prussian War which led to the founding of the Empire in Versailles (which led to the WWI peace treaty in Versailles, in more than one way.) Menzel can have Voltaire's place among Fritz' companions! That's the end of the poem:
Nur Herr von Voltaire fehlt seit Anno 70;
Franzose, rapplig. Dieser Platz ist frei.
Den reservier' ich ihm. Bestell' Er's. Hört Er?
Ich bin Sein gnäd'ger König. Serviteur!«
When I read that, I thought both that Fontane totally would go for that bodyswitch crack fic, and also, what is it about RPF writers breaking Fritz and Voltaire up in the Hereafter? (Remember, Boie also did that in the "Totengespräche" fic that Bronisch mentions at the end of his dissertation, where Fritz tells Wolff he's been Wolff's padawan, gets introduced to Lessing at last and ditches Voltaire.) I mean, I get wanting to give Menzel the ultimate fanboy reward, and to be sure, the Fritz the 19th century imagined was at least as much formed by Menzel's depictions as by Kugler's and Preuss' writings, but any Fritz (in whichever ghostly state) who's ready to give up Voltaire for good is ooc for me. :)
also, what is it about RPF writers breaking Fritz and Voltaire up in the Hereafter? [...] any Fritz (in whichever ghostly state) who's ready to give up Voltaire for good is ooc for me. :)
Lol! How I imagine Fritz in all of these afterlife RPFs:
Fritz: Good riddance to that conceited bastard. These other writers are way more awesome, anyway! [Five minutes later]: Lessing and Menzel, let me read you this thing Voltaire wrote. Isn't he the absolute WORST? [shouts through the ether] Hey Voltaire, you know you can come back anytime!
Yes indeed! BTW, Menzel was less than thrilled to receive a poem speculating about his death on his 70th birthday, getting Voltaire's seat at Fritz' table round or not. Which in turn surprised Fontane (hey, he'd written "not now, after as many year as he wants"! Also, who wouldn't want to spend the afterlife with Fritz & friends!)
Algarotti: I'm already spending part of my afterlife with Lady Mary and Lord Hervey, courtesy of that Hervey biographer. These trips to the free thrinking Franco-Prussian sector of hte afterlife are exhausting!
Algarotti: I'm already spending part of my afterlife with Lady Mary and Lord Hervey, courtesy of that Hervey biographer. These trips to the free thrinking Franco-Prussian sector of hte afterlife are exhausting!
Pff. Says the man whose life took him from Venice to Rome to Venice to Bologna to Venice to Padua to Bologna to Florence to Rome to Paris to Cirey to London to Cirey to Venice to to Paris to London to St. Petersburg to Danzig to Dresden to Leipzig to Potsdam to Berlin to Rheinsberg to Hamburg to London to Berlin to Turin to Berlin to Silesia to Dresden to Berlin to Dresden to Venice to Berlin to Bologna to Berlin to Venice to Bologna, before finally moving to Pisa to die. :P I imagine he's traveling all over the afterlife!
Looks like in crypts in our climate, mummification happens not that rarely if you're in a crypt?
Apparently! Though how much of this is embalming? Your climate is the last one I would expect to lead to spontaneous mummification. Though I guess if the tomb is really, really airtight...
but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence
You can! Also, if he was buried with the Order of the Black Eagle, that would help with the identification.
Thank you for the Fontane poem, that was fascinating. I can see why Menzel was disgruntled, but I can also see why Fontane was surprised and thought it would be a great gift.
Fritz/Voltaire, though! If France and Prussia being at war were such an obstacle, then what's with them *reviving* their correspondence right after Prussia got its butt kicked for the first time? And "hero-poet-philosopher-warrior-mischievous-singular-brilliant-proud-modest king" coming 2 months after Rossbach? :P
If Voltaire is leaving the round table, it's for personal reasons. And cahn is right, anyone who stays is going to have to hear about him, at length, repeatedly. :D
Question. If Émilie had lived a few years longer (*sob*), and Voltaire had come to Prussia in 1755 or even 1756, what do you think would have happened when the war started?
Fritz/Voltaire, though! If France and Prussia being at war were such an obstacle, then what's with them *reviving* their correspondence right after Prussia got its butt kicked for the first time? And "hero-poet-philosopher-warrior-mischievous-singular-brilliant-proud-modest king" coming 2 months after Rossbach? :P
Indeed. Whatever problems they had with each other, hurt patriotism on either side, let alone modern style nationalism, didn't come into it. (That was something Pleschinski said as well when telling me about reading a selecton of their letters together with a French writer in front of the European Parliament.)
Question. If Émilie had lived a few years longer (*sob*), and Voltaire had come to Prussia in 1755 or even 1756, what do you think would have happened when the war started?
Hmmmmm. Difficult to say. I mean they would have found reasons to argue even with Maupertuis in France for health reasons and König who knows where, because they were Fritz and Voltaire. But if Voltaire hasn't been there for even a year before the war starts, the honeymoon isn't quite over. Then again: Fritz in war modus, or preparing war mode, has notably less time for les beaux arts, and would he assume Voltaire tries to spy again or not?
The French intellectuals who actually did have to make a choice aren't really good comparisons. Maupertuis was in France for completely different reasons when the war started, and it was a real problem for him because on the one hand he was surrounded by people who expected him not to go back, and/or resign his post as President of the Academy as a patriotic gesture, but on the other his wife was in Prussia, he knew Fritz wouldn't forgive him if he resigned now, and he actually hadn't planned on quitting anyway. In the event, his health was deterioating, not improving, so he was spared a direct choice about returning or remaining in France. For all his hypochondriac ways, I doubt Voltaire would have been in a comparable situation.
The Marquis d'Argens, otoh, was in Prussia when the war started and remained in Prussia as far as I know - though again, his wife was there, and he had an income and security there he might not have been able to expect in France at that time. Also, unlike Maupertuis, he seems to have made connections to the local intellectuals beyond the Academy - see him knowing Nicolai, Mendelssohn, and hiring a local to learn Hebrew from. I'm not saying his friendship with Fritz wasn't strong or wasn't his main motive for remaining, just pointing out he had additional motivations which would not have been true for Voltaire.
If Voltaire would have chosen to remain in Prussia, he'd have been stuck with Berlin depleted of most people he actually knew, notably Fritz himself. Yes, their correspondence might have been faster than the very tricky corresponding across war lines, but they still would have seen each other only in winter. And where's Madame Denis in all of this? Because her, I can't see voluntarily remaining in Prussia for the duration of the war. (Even without anything comparable to the Frankfurt experience.) Possibly Voltaire could have gone to Wilhelmine at Bayreuth as long as she still lived - it would have provided intellectual conversation with someone he liked and who liked him, in comfortable surroundings, and they could have tried to organize a secret channel for Fritz to negotiate with the French together much as they did in rl - but that also would have only been a temporary solution. So he might have decided to move to Switzerland in such a secenario as well. What I really can't see is Voltaire sticking it out with Lehndorff and EC at Magdeburg...
What I really can't see is Voltaire sticking it out with Lehndorff and EC at Magdeburg...
Ha, yes. And I really can't see him doing what d'Argens did either. His feelings about the "hero" version of Fritz were ambiguous enough from afar, I don't think they'd have gotten any better up close, honeymoon or not.
(One other French person who was still there: De Prades. Who got arrested for spying IIRC.)
Speaking of, though. I read a few Voltaire letters, because I was missing some "Voltaire totally doesn't care about Fritz anymore, why would you think that??" in my life. All of these are from early in the war and of course written with break-up/Frankfurt hindsight, but still.
To Darget, October 5th, 1757: We did not expect, my dear friend, when we were in Potsdam, that the Russians would come to Koenigsberg with a hundred pieces of heavy cannon, and that M. de Richelieu would be at the gates of Magdeburg at the same time. What may still surprise you, is that the King of Prussia is writing to me today, and that I am busy consoling him. Here we are all scattered. Do you remember it was between you and Algarotti who was going to run off first? [...] I flatter myself that yours [i.e. his life] is happy, that your job leaves you free, and that you do not regret having left the banks of the Spree. There is nothing left but poor d'Argens; I pity him, but I pity his master even more. My garden is much nicer than the one in Potsdam, and luckily there is no parade there.
To D'Argental, November 8th: I am not sorry that my Solomon du Nord has some supporters in Paris, and that it is seen that I did not praise a fool. I am interested in his glory for self-esteem, and at the same time I am glad, for reason and fairness, that he is being punished a little. I want to see if adversity will bring him back to philosophy. I swear to you that a month ago he was hardly a philosopher; despair won; it is not a disagreeable role for me to have given him very fatherly advice on this occasion. This anecdote is curious. His life and, reverently speaking, mine are pleasant contrasts; but anyway he admits that I'm happier than him: that's a great point and a fine lesson.
And on December 2nd: It is true that I have a very singular correspondence, but it certainly does not change my feelings; and, at my age, lonely, crippled, I have and must have no other idea than to end my life quietly in a very sweet retirement. If I was twenty-five and in good health, I would take care not to base the lightest hope on a prince who, after having torn me from my country, after having forced me, by unheard-of seductions, to attach myself to him, treated me and my niece in such a cruel way.
(... unheard-of seductions you say?)
And on January 5th, 1758: There is a comedy by the King of Prussia called The Fashion Monkey; we could play it well, while he causes such terrible tragedies in Germany. The disaster was somewhat expected: you would not have said, the 1st of October, he would crush everything, when others took him for crushed, and he wrote me that he was lost and wanted to die, and when I wiped away his tears from afar that I no longer want to wipe up close. You only have to live to see wonders.
Woooow those letters. Those are amazing. Mixed feelings, much? Why is every letter between Fritz and Voltaire or by one about the other pure gold? Wow.
Do you remember it was between you and Algarotti who was going to run off first?
Lol, I had a job once where we were making bets as to who was going to leave in what order. :P
It is true that I have a very singular correspondence
Singular is one way to describe it!
because I was missing some "Voltaire totally doesn't care about Fritz anymore, why would you think that??" in my life.
Do you remember it was between you and Algarotti who was going to run off first?
Lol, I had a job once where we were making bets as to who was going to leave in what order. :P
Nicolai: This why they were all unworthy. Only D'Argens was worthy!
BTW, who did run off first, Darget or Algarotti? (Not counting Algarotti's first bolter to the fleshpots of Saxony.)
I can imagine the table round having a secret pool on this question, absolutely. The Keith brothers, being Jacobite exiles, have no intention of leaving their gainful employment so aren't candidates, but I'm sure they placed bets!
(BTW, ever since you told us the Ice Palace Wedding tale, I can see why James Keith, his excellent position in the Russian army not withstanding, might have concluded Fritz was a better monarch to serve than a Czarina who might take it into her head to marry him off next....
These letter excerpts are all golden. Fritz/Voltaire: the ship where canon is better than anything fanfiction can come up with, and I say that as someone who's written about them!
There is a comedy by the King of Prussia called The Fashion Monkey;
There literally is, and it's fascinating Voltaire remembers, because he wasn't there at the time it got performed. (And I doubt there were any later performances.) It recently came up in the Manteuffel & Wolff dissertation, because Fritz wrote it to diss his Rheinsberg court preader and Wolff fan Dechamps who'd dissed Voltaire. (Reminder for cahn from my write up: In 1741, (Dechamps) attempts to strike out against Voltaire in a major way and gets busy writing Cours abrégé de la philosophie wolffiene en formé de lettres, in which he says that Voltaire was just a rude religion mocker with the ability of making some neat verses, and an ugly, grimacing dwarf of a man to boot. Also, the works of the great Wolff naturally can't be understood by such a creature. Dechamps dedicates this to his two students and sends a copy directly to Fritz as soon as it's printed. The reaction doesn't take long. On November 1742, a one act play gets performed in Charlottenburg, Le singe de la Mode, in which a stupid provincial nobleman is looking for books to feel the shelves of his new library with. He discovers that the volumes best suited for this purpose are hundreds of copies of Dechamps' Cours abregé, which he can get to a bargain price since no one wanted to buy or read them. The author of this play: Fritz. How does Dechamps find out? From little Ferdinand.
As you, felis, pointed out, the play was performed on the occasion of Keyserlingk's wedding. For Voltaire, who wasn't there and only heard about it via mail, to still recall something Fritz wrote to satirize someone else on his behalf nearly two decades later is something else again. :)
after having forced me, by unheard-of seductions, to attach myself to him
I am dying.
Die some more when recalling the guy he writes this to is the same D'Argental who as far as I recall was the recipient of Émilie's "it's a pretty rivalry we have" letter re: Fritz and his attempts to steal Voltaire from her. I'm imagining D'Argental reading this and going "as I remember, you were not exactly an unwilling virgin; more like a two timing coquette!"
Oh, I had not seen these before! Fascinating. Menzel keeps surprising me.
By the way, another Berlin 18th century crypt that was opened and scientifically analyzed pretty recently is the one of the Parochialkirche. From a German article:
All of the buried are members of the reformed Berlin upper class. Different families, some of them aristocratic, some of them middle-class, but always endowed with considerable wealth, shared the tombs. In addition, there have always been individuals who died unexpectedly and found acceptance in the tombs of relatives, friends or work colleagues. With the exception of great governesses and chamber women, there were no professions among the women, which was in line with the usual views at the time. The men were predominantly officials of the court, either as court bakers or stewards responsible for the court society, or as secret councilors or ministers in politics, whereby an accumulation of legally trained people is noticeable. Military personnel were also buried, including many general officers. But we also find scholars such as doctors, professors and students, theologians as well as wealthy merchants and bankers.
Also, regarding the mummification: The climate in the crypt is well suited for a complete mummification due to the well thought-out ventilation system via windows and openings between the chambers. The fact that this process could not always take place is due to the treatment of the deceased before they found their final resting place in the crypt. According to the records in the church registers, an average of three to six days passed from death to burial, for children usually only one day. During this time, the corpse was exposed to the climatic conditions in which the body began to decompose. The warmer the weather, the faster this process went. For this reason, there is a connection between the time of year in which the burial took place and the degree of mummification.
I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows. (One place that might still have the information = old church records (IF they survived WWII), but it seems like none of them are digitized and neither is there a name index, which means that if you want to look someone up, you need to know the church you want and then look at the record in person. ... unless the Mormons got hold of it at some point I guess. :P ETA: WAIT. I totally forgot. Cahn, you don't happen to have access to FamilySearch, do you?)
Ooh, cool, a well designed crypt can dry out the air, that's cool! I was just going with "damp climate" = "not great for mummification." And indeed that was true as far as it went, but the crypt can compensate, awesome. Filing that away.
I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows.
Yeah, I mean, it's not actually much farther from Brüderstrasse and the street behind it on the water than the Neue Kirche, and you have to cross the water to get to either, but who knows.
Walking distance using today's roads from the middle of the street behind Brüderstrasse to:
Neue Kirche: .95 km Parochialkirche: 1.2 km Garnisonkirche: 1.3 km
Neue Kirche is the closest, though! Definitely a contender.
old church records (IF they survived WWII)
I know, I was chatting with my friend right about the time you wrote this, and he was saying that where Peter was buried is probably out there to be found, and I said, "Well. Berlin. WWII. Bombing. Maybe, maybe not!" (I still hope, though.)
Here's a new thought: maybe what's more easy checkable is where the Knyphausen family usually buried their dead. Because as we've seen, all the connections Peter's multinamed son had came from Ariane's side. The Knyphausens really were one of the big Prussian noble families (Peter married upwards there). Them having a crypt or several at their disposal would make sense, as would Ariane burying Peter in it.
That is a thought! Due to getting sucked into Fredersdorf, I haven't had time for more than a quick google, but I've found two crypts in East Frisia where Knyphausens are buried, but so far no indication whether Peter's father-in-law, who was a younger son, was buried there, much less Peter himself.
Peter married upwards there
Most definitely. Unfortunately, I suspect being the husband of a younger daughter of a younger son didn't improve his chances of being buried in a Knyphausen crypt. But I will keep my eyes peeled! Maybe father-in-law Friedrich Ernst started his own crypt in the vicinity of Berlin, for the younger line.
Might put the Parochialkirche back into consideration, what with aristocratic great governesses (->Ariane) and ministers (->Friedrich) being buried there, but a cursory search for Knyphausen crypts or even just graves in Berlin didn't give me anything either.
What I did find while looking for that? That there was an urn monument made of white marble for Andrew Mitchell inside the Dorotheenstädter Kirche (which doesn't exist anymore, courtesy of WWII).
Also, that Dodo v. Knyphausen, Ariane's brother, envoy to Paris and London, belonged to Heinrich's Rheinsberg circle later on and that they hated on Hertzberg together, Heinrich for political reasons, Knyphausen also because he got into some money dispute with him. Dodo and Ariane's younger brother on the other hand (Thiébault calls him "le beaux Knyphausen"), who also belonged to Heinrich's circle, had an affair with the wife of English envoy Elliot, got into a duel with him, almost arrested, and then married her once she and Elliot got a divorce. His family wasn't thrilled apparently, because he got buried in the Nicolaikirche, in his wife's family crypt.
Yes! I do have access to FamilySearch! I looked up Peter Keith but he doesn't seem to show up except once, as "Pierre Christophle Charles Keith" (I expect the second name is a typo) with spouse "Oriane Louise" (so definitely our Peter) and son Frideric Louis Keith, who is the one who actually has the record. Attached to Frideric's record is what appears to be a baptismal registry page (I can download a jpg of the page if desired) with the citation as follows:
"Deutschland, ausgewählte evangelische Kirchenbücher 1500-1971," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS86-HB3V?cc=3015626 : 19 October 2019), > image 1 of 1; Records extracted and images digitized by Ancestry.com. German Lutheran Collection, various parishes, Germany.
If there is anything in particular you want me to look up to see if they have, I can totally do that, let me know!
(There is a note that says "Due to contractual obligations, FamilySearch cannot offer expanded access to historical records that are restricted to family history centers and affiliate libraries, despite the temporary closure of these facilities. We apologize for the inconvenience caused by COVID-19 precautionary measures.")
ETA: Actually It looks like anyone can make an account with FamilySearch? I don't know though if I have additional access because I'm accessing through an LDS account. I suspect though that this access just means that they can link me up to my own ancestors faster.
! This is awesome! I didn't really expect much, because Carl Ernst Reinhard apparently didn't have kids and Friedrich Ludwig seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth address calendar, but this might suggest that he did have descendants?
(I can download a jpg of the page if desired)
I think we don't even have a birth date for Friedrich Ludwig, so the jpg would be very appreciated.
This means that at least some of the church records from that time did survive, which is great. It also seems like it's a Lutheran church, which is helpful in narrowing things down for Peter. (Nicolai's Berlin book gives a list of all churches in Berlin and their denominations, i.e. Lutheran, Calvinist, or both.) Also interesting that it's in French, I never thought about that. Hm.
And yeah, I saw that making an account was possible, but I wasn't sure about access levels as a non-member either, so thank you so much for checking!
but this might suggest that he did have descendants?
Actually -- no, it's only the record of his baptism, no other records, so what it suggests is that someone got around to indexing the particular baptism register that Friedrich Ludwig was in. (So the way this works is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are strongly encouraged -- very strongly encouraged -- all to do our part in indexing documents like this, in whatever languages we can speak. We're encouraged to do at least a page a week; some do more. Even accounting for all the people like me who don't actually do it (probably well over half the active membership don't), that's a veritable army of people constantly indexing.) (This also means that -- even though they try to build in redundancy -- there is a great potential for error as these are primarily amateur volunteers, as you will see.)
In fact... I wonder if Friedrich Ludwig died very early, as the record says that he was baptized "en chambre" because of "maladie." Also, there is a birthdate of 10 August 1745 attached to the record which I think is an error; as far as I can tell the birthdate given in the record is 14 August?
I also went looking for Carl Ernst and found a record... of him as the husband of Oriane Luise. Lol. But it turns out that what this was taken from (there is also very little about him) is the burial record of Oriane Luise! I am having trouble reading this at all besides a mention of Knyphausen, maybe you guys will do better. I assume that it says Carl Reinhard survived her but I suppose it could also be someone (possibly the record writer) getting confused by all those names for Peter :P
No citation BUT it says "Parish register of baptisms, marriages and burials for Parochialkirche in Berlin, Brandenburg, Germany. For earlier years see Dom Kirche." (1703-1877) (!)
But sadly I went back to Dec 1756 in the burial register and as far as I can tell there is no record of Peter's burial in Dec 1756 or Jan 1757. (Possibly someone should check me, though... it's better not to trust anything I do this late at night.)
:DDD Thank you! This is fascinating. And thank you for explaining how it works - I wasn't sure if an existing record meant that somebody had looked him up specifically, but obviously not. Still, lots of great information.
if Friedrich Ludwig died very early as the record says that he was baptized "en chambre" because of "maladie."
He can't have! We have one mention of him by name in 1764, working as a trainee at the Berliner state court, and I don't believe Peter and Ariane (or Oriane apparently) reused the name - while it's not completely unheard of, IMO another, later born kid would have been too young to be a trainee in 1764 (we also know he went to university in between). So either he was a sickly child but rallied - or maybe Ariane herself was too sick? I don't know how these things worked exactly.
As for the rest of the baptism record, I read 14th of August as the birth date as well, at ten in the morning, which might be how the confusion happened. What's interesting is that the register doesn't seem to belong to any one church, though. The other entries on the page all name different churches for the baptisms and the common theme here are the French preachers. The relevant one for us is "le pasteur de Combles", which I believe is Pierre de Combles, who worked at the Dorotheenstädter Kirche from 1728 to 1767 (i.e. the one where Andrew Mitchell was later buried).
Now, godfathers and -mothers! Male ones are Fritz (! although not too surprising with that name) and Frederic Henry de Cheusses, who was the Danish envoy in Berlin from 1743 to 1746 and came from a Huguenot family, just like the preacher. (He's mentioned in the Political Correspondence a couple of times and was envoy to Russia afterwards.)
ETA: Friedrich de Cheusses - the 1745 address calendar says he lived next to the Ilgen's house, which was the family of Peter's mother-in-law and might be where the connection comes from. Also, I had to smile at this description in his wiki record: He did not excel in excellent ability or rich initiative, but he looked good, was very reliable and especially extremely careful. These were precisely the qualities needed opposite Frederick II of Prussia and later opposite Pyotr Bestushev.
Female: Peter's mother-in-law, who apparently wasn't present, as it says she was represented by Ariane's younger sisters, Hyma Maria (the one who married Hertzberg later, but not yet) and Hedwig Charlotte.
Oh, and Peter is described as "premier Ecuyer de sa Majesté le Roi de Prusse, et Lieutenant Colonel dans ses armees natif de Poberow en Pomeranie".
Now, the burial register, which is in German. It's interesting that my hunch re: Parochialkirche + Ariane's great governess position seems to have been correct after all, but I'm still doubtful that it's where Peter was buried, which seems to correspond with your findings. I sure wish the guy writing the burial register had the same lovely handwriting as his French colleague, though, because it's hard to read. I believe the columns are "death date" (unreadable on our page), "dead person", "age" (71 years), "cause of death" (?? - I think it might be saying "Steckfluss" for Ariane, but I'm not sure), and "heirs", so yes, Carl Reinhard shows up as the last one (although I can't read the first line there). I also see the note that Ariane was great governess to the ["something"] Queen, but the rest of it? ..... okay, it says she was a widow (verwittwete Frau) and that she was buried in crypt number five, which I think cost 60 "no idea what the currency is here" (plan of the crypts), but there are still two unreadable-to-me lines there. Hmmm.
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timeasmymeasure
Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-26 06:12 pm (UTC)Guess whose burial I was googling when I turned this up, many moons ago? ;) Still haven't found him, but the garrison church is another contender, since he was actually an officer, even if an indifferent one.
Alas I fear by 1881, there probably weren't many who would have known who he was, or cared even if they did.
I agree. Nicolaihaus and Tiergarten it is!
So if felis is right and he was originally buried there, his bones might have stayed there without getting transferred and have long since joined the unnamed dust under the church.
I'm okay with that--we all turn to unnamed dust eventually--but I just want to *know*!
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-27 06:36 am (UTC)I was first a bit surprised that Menzel could immediately tell it was James K. from the idealized portraits he was familiar with, given that, say, Fritz' death mask look nothing like his youthful Pesne portraits, but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence:
Oh, and as
About Menzel: came a cross a minor Fontane poem celebrating his 70th birthday (On the stairs to Sanssouci, in which he imagines making a winter stroll and encountering Fritz' ghost, who asks what's up with this "Menzelfest", who is Menzel? The poem's "I" explains (praising the huge variety of Menzel's paintings, from social realism to Fritzian illustrations), and Fritz is impressed and decides to offer as his present to Menzel a place in his table round, not right now, of course, but when Menzel wants to have it, he can take as much time as he wants. There's one place free now anyway since Voltaire has left in 1870, being French. (
Nur Herr von Voltaire fehlt seit Anno 70;
Franzose, rapplig. Dieser Platz ist frei.
Den reservier' ich ihm. Bestell' Er's. Hört Er?
Ich bin Sein gnäd'ger König. Serviteur!«
When I read that, I thought both that Fontane totally would go for that bodyswitch crack fic, and also, what is it about RPF writers breaking Fritz and Voltaire up in the Hereafter? (Remember, Boie also did that in the "Totengespräche" fic that Bronisch mentions at the end of his dissertation, where Fritz tells Wolff he's been Wolff's padawan, gets introduced to Lessing at last and ditches Voltaire.) I mean, I get wanting to give Menzel the ultimate fanboy reward, and to be sure, the Fritz the 19th century imagined was at least as much formed by Menzel's depictions as by Kugler's and Preuss' writings, but any Fritz (in whichever ghostly state) who's ready to give up Voltaire for good is ooc for me. :)
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 12:32 am (UTC)Lol! How I imagine Fritz in all of these afterlife RPFs:
Fritz: Good riddance to that conceited bastard. These other writers are way more awesome, anyway!
[Five minutes later]: Lessing and Menzel, let me read you this thing Voltaire wrote. Isn't he the absolute WORST? [shouts through the ether] Hey Voltaire, you know you can come back anytime!
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 12:58 am (UTC)This is the best and exactly what is happening as we speak!
Utterly bother-free visits in the afterlife. :D
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 06:02 am (UTC)Algarotti: I'm already spending part of my afterlife with Lady Mary and Lord Hervey, courtesy of that Hervey biographer. These trips to the free thrinking Franco-Prussian sector of hte afterlife are exhausting!
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 12:52 pm (UTC)Pff. Says the man whose life took him from Venice to Rome to Venice to Bologna to Venice to Padua to Bologna to Florence to Rome to Paris to Cirey to London to Cirey to Venice to to Paris to London to St. Petersburg to Danzig to Dresden to Leipzig to Potsdam to Berlin to Rheinsberg to Hamburg to London to Berlin to Turin to Berlin to Silesia to Dresden to Berlin to Dresden to Venice to Berlin to Bologna to Berlin to Venice to Bologna, before finally moving to Pisa to die. :P I imagine he's traveling all over the afterlife!
(Man, our chronology doc is great. :D)
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 12:35 pm (UTC)Apparently! Though how much of this is embalming? Your climate is the last one I would expect to lead to spontaneous mummification. Though I guess if the tomb is really, really airtight...
but then I looked at the James Keith portrait Pesne made and there you actually can see the resemblence
You can! Also, if he was buried with the Order of the Black Eagle, that would help with the identification.
Thank you for the Fontane poem, that was fascinating. I can see why Menzel was disgruntled, but I can also see why Fontane was surprised and thought it would be a great gift.
Fritz/Voltaire, though! If France and Prussia being at war were such an obstacle, then what's with them *reviving* their correspondence right after Prussia got its butt kicked for the first time? And "hero-poet-philosopher-warrior-mischievous-singular-brilliant-proud-modest king" coming 2 months after Rossbach? :P
If Voltaire is leaving the round table, it's for personal reasons. And
Question. If Émilie had lived a few years longer (*sob*), and Voltaire had come to Prussia in 1755 or even 1756, what do you think would have happened when the war started?
Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-03-28 03:51 pm (UTC)Indeed. Whatever problems they had with each other, hurt patriotism on either side, let alone modern style nationalism, didn't come into it. (That was something Pleschinski said as well when telling me about reading a selecton of their letters together with a French writer in front of the European Parliament.)
Question. If Émilie had lived a few years longer (*sob*), and Voltaire had come to Prussia in 1755 or even 1756, what do you think would have happened when the war started?
Hmmmmm. Difficult to say. I mean they would have found reasons to argue even with Maupertuis in France for health reasons and König who knows where, because they were Fritz and Voltaire. But if Voltaire hasn't been there for even a year before the war starts, the honeymoon isn't quite over. Then again: Fritz in war modus, or preparing war mode, has notably less time for les beaux arts, and would he assume Voltaire tries to spy again or not?
The French intellectuals who actually did have to make a choice aren't really good comparisons. Maupertuis was in France for completely different reasons when the war started, and it was a real problem for him because on the one hand he was surrounded by people who expected him not to go back, and/or resign his post as President of the Academy as a patriotic gesture, but on the other his wife was in Prussia, he knew Fritz wouldn't forgive him if he resigned now, and he actually hadn't planned on quitting anyway. In the event, his health was deterioating, not improving, so he was spared a direct choice about returning or remaining in France. For all his hypochondriac ways, I doubt Voltaire would have been in a comparable situation.
The Marquis d'Argens, otoh, was in Prussia when the war started and remained in Prussia as far as I know - though again, his wife was there, and he had an income and security there he might not have been able to expect in France at that time. Also, unlike Maupertuis, he seems to have made connections to the local intellectuals beyond the Academy - see him knowing Nicolai, Mendelssohn, and hiring a local to learn Hebrew from. I'm not saying his friendship with Fritz wasn't strong or wasn't his main motive for remaining, just pointing out he had additional motivations which would not have been true for Voltaire.
If Voltaire would have chosen to remain in Prussia, he'd have been stuck with Berlin depleted of most people he actually knew, notably Fritz himself. Yes, their correspondence might have been faster than the very tricky corresponding across war lines, but they still would have seen each other only in winter. And where's Madame Denis in all of this? Because her, I can't see voluntarily remaining in Prussia for the duration of the war. (Even without anything comparable to the Frankfurt experience.) Possibly Voltaire could have gone to Wilhelmine at Bayreuth as long as she still lived - it would have provided intellectual conversation with someone he liked and who liked him, in comfortable surroundings, and they could have tried to organize a secret channel for Fritz to negotiate with the French together much as they did in rl - but that also would have only been a temporary solution. So he might have decided to move to Switzerland in such a secenario as well. What I really can't see is Voltaire sticking it out with Lehndorff and EC at Magdeburg...
Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-03-28 09:47 pm (UTC)Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-03-28 10:01 pm (UTC)Ha, yes. And I really can't see him doing what d'Argens did either. His feelings about the "hero" version of Fritz were ambiguous enough from afar, I don't think they'd have gotten any better up close, honeymoon or not.
(One other French person who was still there: De Prades. Who got arrested for spying IIRC.)
Speaking of, though. I read a few Voltaire letters, because I was missing some "Voltaire totally doesn't care about Fritz anymore, why would you think that??" in my life. All of these are from early in the war and of course written with break-up/Frankfurt hindsight, but still.
To Darget, October 5th, 1757:
We did not expect, my dear friend, when we were in Potsdam, that the Russians would come to Koenigsberg with a hundred pieces of heavy cannon, and that M. de Richelieu would be at the gates of Magdeburg at the same time. What may still surprise you, is that the King of Prussia is writing to me today, and that I am busy consoling him. Here we are all scattered. Do you remember it was between you and Algarotti who was going to run off first?
[...] I flatter myself that yours [i.e. his life] is happy, that your job leaves you free, and that you do not regret having left the banks of the Spree. There is nothing left but poor d'Argens; I pity him, but I pity his master even more. My garden is much nicer than the one in Potsdam, and luckily there is no parade there.
To D'Argental, November 8th:
I am not sorry that my Solomon du Nord has some supporters in Paris, and that it is seen that I did not praise a fool. I am interested in his glory for self-esteem, and at the same time I am glad, for reason and fairness, that he is being punished a little. I want to see if adversity will bring him back to philosophy. I swear to you that a month ago he was hardly a philosopher; despair won; it is not a disagreeable role for me to have given him very fatherly advice on this occasion. This anecdote is curious. His life and, reverently speaking, mine are pleasant contrasts; but anyway he admits that I'm happier than him: that's a great point and a fine lesson.
And on December 2nd:
It is true that I have a very singular correspondence, but it certainly does not change my feelings; and, at my age, lonely, crippled, I have and must have no other idea than to end my life quietly in a very sweet retirement. If I was twenty-five and in good health, I would take care not to base the lightest hope on a prince who, after having torn me from my country, after having forced me, by unheard-of seductions, to attach myself to him, treated me and my niece in such a cruel way.
(... unheard-of seductions you say?)
And on January 5th, 1758:
There is a comedy by the King of Prussia called The Fashion Monkey; we could play it well, while he causes such terrible tragedies in Germany. The disaster was somewhat expected: you would not have said, the 1st of October, he would crush everything, when others took him for crushed, and he wrote me that he was lost and wanted to die, and when I wiped away his tears from afar that I no longer want to wipe up close. You only have to live to see wonders.
Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-03-28 10:24 pm (UTC)Do you remember it was between you and Algarotti who was going to run off first?
Lol, I had a job once where we were making bets as to who was going to leave in what order. :P
It is true that I have a very singular correspondence
Singular is one way to describe it!
because I was missing some "Voltaire totally doesn't care about Fritz anymore, why would you think that??" in my life.
:DDDD
Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-03-29 05:28 am (UTC)Lol, I had a job once where we were making bets as to who was going to leave in what order. :P
Nicolai: This why they were all unworthy. Only D'Argens was worthy!
BTW, who did run off first, Darget or Algarotti? (Not counting Algarotti's first bolter to the fleshpots of Saxony.)
I can imagine the table round having a secret pool on this question, absolutely. The Keith brothers, being Jacobite exiles, have no intention of leaving their gainful employment so aren't candidates, but I'm sure they placed bets!
(BTW, ever since you told us the Ice Palace Wedding tale, I can see why James Keith, his excellent position in the Russian army not withstanding, might have concluded Fritz was a better monarch to serve than a Czarina who might take it into her head to marry him off next....
Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
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Date: 2021-03-29 05:40 am (UTC)There is a comedy by the King of Prussia called The Fashion Monkey;
There literally is, and it's fascinating Voltaire remembers, because he wasn't there at the time it got performed. (And I doubt there were any later performances.) It recently came up in the Manteuffel & Wolff dissertation, because Fritz wrote it to diss his Rheinsberg court preader and Wolff fan Dechamps who'd dissed Voltaire. (Reminder for
As you,
Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-03-29 08:36 pm (UTC)Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
From:Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-04-01 04:42 am (UTC)I read a few Voltaire letters, because I was missing some "Voltaire totally doesn't care about Fritz anymore, why would you think that??" in my life.
Hee, I totally laughed :D
What may still surprise you, is that the King of Prussia is writing to me today, and that I am busy consoling him.
Ha, yes, Voltaire, that was indeed surprising to everyone else :D
I am interested in his glory for self-esteem, and at the same time I am glad, for reason and fairness, that he is being punished a little.
Oh Voltaire.
after having forced me, by unheard-of seductions, to attach myself to him
I am dying.
Re: Voltaire: will you stay or will you go?
Date: 2021-04-01 08:21 am (UTC)I am dying.
Die some more when recalling the guy he writes this to is the same D'Argental who as far as I recall was the recipient of Émilie's "it's a pretty rivalry we have" letter re: Fritz and his attempts to steal Voltaire from her. I'm imagining D'Argental reading this and going "as I remember, you were not exactly an unwilling virgin; more like a two timing coquette!"
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 08:30 pm (UTC)By the way, another Berlin 18th century crypt that was opened and scientifically analyzed pretty recently is the one of the Parochialkirche. From a German article:
All of the buried are members of the reformed Berlin upper class. Different families, some of them aristocratic, some of them middle-class, but always endowed with considerable wealth, shared the tombs. In addition, there have always been individuals who died unexpectedly and found acceptance in the tombs of relatives, friends or work colleagues. With the exception of great governesses and chamber women, there were no professions among the women, which was in line with the usual views at the time. The men were predominantly officials of the court, either as court bakers or stewards responsible for the court society, or as secret councilors or ministers in politics, whereby an accumulation of legally trained people is noticeable. Military personnel were also buried, including many general officers. But we also find scholars such as doctors, professors and students, theologians as well as wealthy merchants and bankers.
Also, regarding the mummification: The climate in the crypt is well suited for a complete mummification due to the well thought-out ventilation system via windows and openings between the chambers. The fact that this process could not always take place is due to the treatment of the deceased before they found their final resting place in the crypt. According to the records in the church registers, an average of three to six days passed from death to burial, for children usually only one day. During this time, the corpse was exposed to the climatic conditions in which the body began to decompose. The warmer the weather, the faster this process went. For this reason, there is a connection between the time of year in which the burial took place and the degree of mummification.
I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows. (One place that might still have the information = old church records (IF they survived WWII), but it seems like none of them are digitized and neither is there a name index, which means that if you want to look someone up, you need to know the church you want and then look at the record in person. ... unless the Mormons got hold of it at some point I guess. :P ETA: WAIT. I totally forgot. Cahn, you don't happen to have access to FamilySearch, do you?)
Re: Corpse portraits
Date: 2021-03-28 10:18 pm (UTC)I mostly dismissed it as a possibility for Peter because of the money aspect and because of its location, which is on the opposite side of the Spree island. But who knows.
Yeah, I mean, it's not actually much farther from Brüderstrasse and the street behind it on the water than the Neue Kirche, and you have to cross the water to get to either, but who knows.
Walking distance using today's roads from the middle of the street behind Brüderstrasse to:
Neue Kirche: .95 km
Parochialkirche: 1.2 km
Garnisonkirche: 1.3 km
Neue Kirche is the closest, though! Definitely a contender.
old church records (IF they survived WWII)
I know, I was chatting with my friend right about the time you wrote this, and he was saying that where Peter was buried is probably out there to be found, and I said, "Well. Berlin. WWII. Bombing. Maybe, maybe not!" (I still hope, though.)
Knyphausens?
Date: 2021-03-29 04:57 am (UTC)Re: Knyphausens?
Date: 2021-03-29 08:51 pm (UTC)Peter married upwards there
Most definitely. Unfortunately, I suspect being the husband of a younger daughter of a younger son didn't improve his chances of being buried in a Knyphausen crypt. But I will keep my eyes peeled! Maybe father-in-law Friedrich Ernst started his own crypt in the vicinity of Berlin, for the younger line.
Re: Knyphausens?
Date: 2021-03-29 08:59 pm (UTC)What I did find while looking for that? That there was an urn monument made of white marble for Andrew Mitchell inside the Dorotheenstädter Kirche (which doesn't exist anymore, courtesy of WWII).
Also, that Dodo v. Knyphausen, Ariane's brother, envoy to Paris and London, belonged to Heinrich's Rheinsberg circle later on and that they hated on Hertzberg together, Heinrich for political reasons, Knyphausen also because he got into some money dispute with him.
Dodo and Ariane's younger brother on the other hand (Thiébault calls him "le beaux Knyphausen"), who also belonged to Heinrich's circle, had an affair with the wife of English envoy Elliot, got into a duel with him, almost arrested, and then married her once she and Elliot got a divorce. His family wasn't thrilled apparently, because he got buried in the Nicolaikirche, in his wife's family crypt.
Re: Knyphausens?
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From:FamilySearch
Date: 2021-04-01 05:06 am (UTC)"Deutschland, ausgewählte evangelische Kirchenbücher 1500-1971," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS86-HB3V?cc=3015626 : 19 October 2019), > image 1 of 1; Records extracted and images digitized by Ancestry.com. German Lutheran Collection, various parishes, Germany.
If there is anything in particular you want me to look up to see if they have, I can totally do that, let me know!
(There is a note that says "Due to contractual obligations, FamilySearch cannot offer expanded access to historical records that are restricted to family history centers and affiliate libraries, despite the temporary closure of these facilities. We apologize for the inconvenience caused by COVID-19 precautionary measures.")
ETA: Actually It looks like anyone can make an account with FamilySearch? I don't know though if I have additional access because I'm accessing through an LDS account. I suspect though that this access just means that they can link me up to my own ancestors faster.
Re: FamilySearch
Date: 2021-04-01 02:11 pm (UTC)earthaddress calendar, but this might suggest that he did have descendants?(I can download a jpg of the page if desired)
I think we don't even have a birth date for Friedrich Ludwig, so the jpg would be very appreciated.
This means that at least some of the church records from that time did survive, which is great. It also seems like it's a Lutheran church, which is helpful in narrowing things down for Peter. (Nicolai's Berlin book gives a list of all churches in Berlin and their denominations, i.e. Lutheran, Calvinist, or both.)
Also interesting that it's in French, I never thought about that. Hm.
And yeah, I saw that making an account was possible, but I wasn't sure about access levels as a non-member either, so thank you so much for checking!
Re: FamilySearch
Date: 2021-04-02 05:20 am (UTC)Actually -- no, it's only the record of his baptism, no other records, so what it suggests is that someone got around to indexing the particular baptism register that Friedrich Ludwig was in. (So the way this works is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are strongly encouraged -- very strongly encouraged -- all to do our part in indexing documents like this, in whatever languages we can speak. We're encouraged to do at least a page a week; some do more. Even accounting for all the people like me who don't actually do it (probably well over half the active membership don't), that's a veritable army of people constantly indexing.) (This also means that -- even though they try to build in redundancy -- there is a great potential for error as these are primarily amateur volunteers, as you will see.)
In fact... I wonder if Friedrich Ludwig died very early, as the record says that he was baptized "en chambre" because of "maladie." Also, there is a birthdate of 10 August 1745 attached to the record which I think is an error; as far as I can tell the birthdate given in the record is 14 August?
I also went looking for Carl Ernst and found a record... of him as the husband of Oriane Luise. Lol. But it turns out that what this was taken from (there is also very little about him) is the burial record of Oriane Luise! I am having trouble reading this at all besides a mention of Knyphausen, maybe you guys will do better. I assume that it says Carl Reinhard survived her but I suppose it could also be someone (possibly the record writer) getting confused by all those names for Peter :P
No citation BUT it says "Parish register of baptisms, marriages and burials for Parochialkirche in Berlin, Brandenburg, Germany. For earlier years see Dom Kirche." (1703-1877) (!)
But sadly I went back to Dec 1756 in the burial register and as far as I can tell there is no record of Peter's burial in Dec 1756 or Jan 1757. (Possibly someone should check me, though... it's better not to trust anything I do this late at night.)
Re: FamilySearch
Date: 2021-04-02 10:03 am (UTC)if Friedrich Ludwig died very early as the record says that he was baptized "en chambre" because of "maladie."
He can't have! We have one mention of him by name in 1764, working as a trainee at the Berliner state court, and I don't believe Peter and Ariane (or Oriane apparently) reused the name - while it's not completely unheard of, IMO another, later born kid would have been too young to be a trainee in 1764 (we also know he went to university in between). So either he was a sickly child but rallied - or maybe Ariane herself was too sick? I don't know how these things worked exactly.
As for the rest of the baptism record, I read 14th of August as the birth date as well, at ten in the morning, which might be how the confusion happened. What's interesting is that the register doesn't seem to belong to any one church, though. The other entries on the page all name different churches for the baptisms and the common theme here are the French preachers. The relevant one for us is "le pasteur de Combles", which I believe is Pierre de Combles, who worked at the Dorotheenstädter Kirche from 1728 to 1767 (i.e. the one where Andrew Mitchell was later buried).
Now, godfathers and -mothers! Male ones are Fritz (! although not too surprising with that name) and Frederic Henry de Cheusses, who was the Danish envoy in Berlin from 1743 to 1746 and came from a Huguenot family, just like the preacher. (He's mentioned in the Political Correspondence a couple of times and was envoy to Russia afterwards.)
ETA: Friedrich de Cheusses - the 1745 address calendar says he lived next to the Ilgen's house, which was the family of Peter's mother-in-law and might be where the connection comes from. Also, I had to smile at this description in his wiki record: He did not excel in excellent ability or rich initiative, but he looked good, was very reliable and especially extremely careful. These were precisely the qualities needed opposite Frederick II of Prussia and later opposite Pyotr Bestushev.
Female: Peter's mother-in-law, who apparently wasn't present, as it says she was represented by Ariane's younger sisters, Hyma Maria (the one who married Hertzberg later, but not yet) and Hedwig Charlotte.
Oh, and Peter is described as "premier Ecuyer de sa Majesté le Roi de Prusse, et Lieutenant Colonel dans ses armees natif de Poberow en Pomeranie".
Now, the burial register, which is in German. It's interesting that my hunch re: Parochialkirche + Ariane's great governess position seems to have been correct after all, but I'm still doubtful that it's where Peter was buried, which seems to correspond with your findings. I sure wish the guy writing the burial register had the same lovely handwriting as his French colleague, though, because it's hard to read. I believe the columns are "death date" (unreadable on our page), "dead person", "age" (71 years), "cause of death" (?? - I think it might be saying "Steckfluss" for Ariane, but I'm not sure), and "heirs", so yes, Carl Reinhard shows up as the last one (although I can't read the first line there). I also see the note that Ariane was great governess to the ["something"] Queen, but the rest of it? ..... okay, it says she was a widow (verwittwete Frau) and that she was buried in crypt number five, which I think cost 60 "no idea what the currency is here" (plan of the crypts), but there are still two unreadable-to-me lines there. Hmmm.
Re: FamilySearch
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