cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 26

You guys are fast! :D

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From:

selenak

Having completed Exner's dissertation, I have not much more to add. It does what it sets out to do, presents a good picture of the musical networking triggered by Fritz the ultra musical becoming King, with a focus on the 1740 - 1756 period when, Exner says, Berlin music was cutting edge, whereas post 7 Years War it became staid because nothing was allowed to change anymore. With her Zelter prologue, she however demonstrates that even within that period, there were some great long time benefits. (For example: Zelter growing up in Frederician Berlin imprinted his musical taste and his love for all things Bach, which in turn led to his student Felix Mendelssohn loving Bach, which in turn led to Mendelssohn spearheading the great Bach revival of the 19th century.) She also provides a good "what came before" overview that includes Sophie Charlotte championing music in F1's Berlin, FW and his exception for Händel-on-oboe, with the job of being the most important musical patron of the land being taken up by F1's younger half brother Christian Ludwig, to whom Bach's "Brandenburg Concertos" are dedicated. Several of the musicians of his orchestra later ended up with Fritz or Wilhelmine after his death, so it really must have been first class. (BTW, Christian Ludwig was just five or so years older than FW, so we have another case of someone's uncle being more of a cousin. I dimly recall a none too fond quote from Fritz about him which didn't make it into Exner's dissertation, though, along the lines of him never failing to point out that he was the son of the Great Prince Elector and demanding to be treated accordingly.)

So if we need to look up a musician Fritz employed until 1756, this is good book to look it up, though personally I would go to the book I used from the Münchner Stadtbibliothek last year, because that one has original research (read: Newspapers!) whereas Exner relies on a number of older sources or anthologies and keeps making tiny avoidable mistakes. We've covered the Fredersdorf stuff; later, there was this gem, when she talks about Fritz' libretto for Montezuma and the obvious "here's what happens if you don't fight in time against the evil Catholics" moral - she says that the current Habsburgs, i.e. MT & Co., were descendended from the Spanish line of the Habsburgs. While there was some intermarriage between the Spanish line and the Austrian line (that helped making the last Spanish Habsburg such a genetic wonder) after the two lines separated post Charles V., this is really a stretch, because the Spanish line notoriously ended in said genetic dead end, who had no surviving children. But okay, that's nitpicking, and of course I agree with Fritz wanting people to associate current day Habsburg MT with the evil Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella (neither of them Habsburgs, btw; their daughter Juana married Philip le Bel who was a Habsburg, resulting in the Emperor Charles V. who was the first Habsburg to rule in Spain). Also, with all the emphasis on Fritz making Berlin cutting edge pre 1756 in musical terms, there's not a single mention of Gluck, aka the composer who revolutionized the way opera was composed, and who wasn't in Berlin but, dare I say it, Vienna. (And later France when Marie Antoinette was Queen and asked for her old teacher.) I just kept coming up against tiny stuff like this, and I wish she'd have had a better beta.

HOWEVER. One of her old sources is the Ledebur dictionary of Berlin musical artists which Mildred has uploaded now in the library. It's from 1861, and at fault for the "Fritz gave Fredersdorf Zernikow in 1734" whopper, but then information about Fredersdorf wasn't that easy to get in the 1860s. Otoh, Amalie is far better documented, and I do want share with you two excerpts from the Amalie entry, one about her musical abilities and one featuring her withering sharp tongue.

Ledebur quotes Gerber, an earlier author:

She studied counter point with her court composer, the famous Kirnberger, and advanced in this art so far that she deserves to be counted among the masters of this art, which is supported by the surviving examples of her composing. In order to prove this, I have only to remind people that it was her who could rival the great Graun's claim for the laurel of having set Ramler's "Death of Jesus" to music. How much she has achieved with this work, in which masculine style she has worked, how far she was able to use every secret of the double counter point and the fugue, the choir of this cantata proves which Kirnberger has provided us with in his "Kunst des reinen Satzes". A passage from her violin trio printed in the same place proves both her deep insight in the teaching of counter point and the Instrumentalsatz.

However, while being way more into all Bachs than her brother, Amalie in general shared Fritz' musical preferences and wasn't shy making this known when one of her younger contemporary composers talked to her. The dictionary lists the example of J.A.P. Schulz (of whom I admit I haven't heard before), who seems to have been Rheinsberg based (working for Heinrich?) - Amalie's letter, which the dictionary entry quotes, is addressed to "Kapellmeister Schulz zu Rheinsberg", and dated Berlin, January 31st 1785. Schulz had asked permission to dedicate his "Choirs to Athalia" to her. Now, asking permission for a dedication was the rule, because by accepting the dedication, the influential person in question publicly supported the work dedicated to them, and also by implication the artist. Amalie was according to the dictionary (in)famous for turning down most people wanting to dedicate stuff to her and only accepting those she really liked. And she didn't just say no. She wrote this:

I imagine, Herr Schulz! you to have sent by accident your child's dribbling of notes on paper instead of your own work, for I couldn't discover the slightest scientific art in it, but instead found from beginning to end nothing but mistakes in expression, content and reason of the language and in rhythm. To say nothing of the modus contrarius; no harmony, no singing, the Third completely left out, no sound set out, one has to guess from which it's supposed to develop, no canon imitations, not the slightest counter point, nothing but quints and octaves, and that's supposed to be called music? May God open the eyes of those possessing such a vivid self flattering imagination, enlighten their minds and teach them to recognize that they're nothing but charlatans.

Yep, that's Fritz' sister, alright.

From:

selenak

Mildred wrote:

Hmm, yes, I was thinking of collecting everyone over the course of his reign in a semi-crackfic, but if we're trying to pin this down in time and make it a serious historical AU, then okay.

I was actually going for happy medium of serious and crack. :) But if you want to collect people from his entire life, at least one of the teachers thrown down the stairs or out of the window or what not should make it on the list.

FS a the detective:
Is FS going to be okay with it, though? Because that's also a key plot point to the final resolution, as I recall. I feel like FS miiiight have an incentive to go..."No, ganging up on even your crazy abusive monarch is not okay."

Well, it would set a bad precedent if it became known he okay'd it. But since he wouldn't tell anyone, it's not. Also, consider the alternative. The Clement Plot was fake and still caused lots of trouble between Vienna, Berlin and Saxony until FW had calmed down enough to accept Eugene's pledge that the letter was forged etc., and even longer till he warmed up to the Saxons again. If the Emperor's future son-in-law officially accuses the Queen Mother and the new King of in armed-to-the-teeth Prussia of having been involved in a plot to assassinate the previous King, what would that produce? Definitely not Fritz calmly surrendering himself to the Diet and the Emperor for judgment. More like every single Protestant German principality accusing the Catholic Habsburgs to spread lies in order to hand over Protestant Brandenburg-plus-Prussia to a Catholic tool, and likely war within the HRE. At a point where MT's Dad needs every prince on his side he can get since his people are still trying to get everyone to sign on the Pragmatic Sanction. Nobody wants war (well.... so FS thinks!). And FS is canonically a guy who urged MT to let things go re: Silesia, to reconciliation, and who wrote to his son Leopold about the advantage of putting yourself in the others' shoes, taking a step back, seeing it from their pov, etc. So I think him discovering the truth but not letting on what he figured out (since he's seen as a lightweight anyway) would be ic enough for a fanfiction!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, I'm glad it gave you the Zelter info you were looking for and is a relatively good resource for matters music, even if the scholarship is lacking in some respects.

So if we need to look up a musician Fritz employed until 1756, this is good book to look it up, though personally I would go to the book I used from the Münchner Stadtbibliothek last year

But this one is in our Frederician library, so more convenient in some respects. :) Which was the one you're referring to? If I ever manage to recoup my savings, I might expand our library's restricted section.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

But if you want to collect people from his entire life, at least one of the teachers thrown down the stairs or out of the window or what not should make it on the list.

I was thinking of the defenestrated chamberlain! If nothing else, that allows us to put that ridiculous story into the hypothetical fic. :D

Nobody wants war (well.... so FS thinks!).

Ha!

Fritz: Speak for yourself. :P

FS: if you think it's plausible enough for our semi-crackfic, I won't argue. So, assuming we have a body with 14(?) stab wounds, how does that work out in terms of preventing European war?

From:

selenak

It's this title.

From:

selenak

Well, that would be outside of our fic, but: if FW dies (in whichever way) in the spring of 1732, MT's Dad is alive and well for eight more years. However, August the Strong is about to kick the bucket in 1733, thereby triggering the War of Polish Succession. My guess would be Fritz is going to use that chance for a land grab then, though whether through Silesia or Jülich and Berg, or by declaring his own candidacy for the Polish throne as a third candidate (hey, why not? He's harmless recent victim Crown Prince Fritz! Vote for him, he's no threat, and he has some nice soldiers to protect your borders! He has money, too, maybe enough to outbid Brühl!), who knows.

Mind you, in one respect I can see this whole AU as being bad for Fritz: no Rheinsberg years where he can relax and be happy and live how he likes (minus being married). He has to go to work as a monarch right away.

Back to the story. I went and looked up the Christie original's wiki entry to refresh my memory, and was v. v. amused the entry even has a map showing whose room was where vis a vis the victim. But this reminded me: as Morgenstern's "Day in the life" narration shows, FW didn't sleep alone, especially not in the 1730s when he was sick so often. He didn't just have servants and pages in the next room, which Fritz (and every other monarch) also did, he had at least one in the same room.(Which many, though not all of them did.) And this Leibjäger would presumably be a young man, so he can't be replaced by one of the older crowd, but we can decide that this is a representative forcibly drafted Potsdam Giant.

But if the engagement party is the occasion, it's a good excuse as to why everyone is in the same palace. Poirot got the cabin next to the victim by coincidence, but FS might get a room near FW because as the Emperor's not so secret future son-in-law, he's a guest of honor.

BTW: another consequence of the much stabbed dead royal body: maybe Team Brunswick rethinks the engagement? (If not, Fritz could still dissolve it, as in rl he and EC wouldn't get married until a year later, which was the normal engagement time.)

From:

selenak

As we've seen in the contemporary accounts, whether via dispatches like Mitchell's during the 7 Years War or late life memoirs like Schöning's, and of course in Henri de Catt's two versions of his time with Fritz, he consistently comes across as respectful and complimentary about his father once he's King, and if he does bring up a downside like FW's rages, it's immediately qualified and put into (generally) positive perspective. This is one big reason why the official version of the two of them getting along fine post Küstrin submission in August 1731 was so widely accepted, and in 19th and early 20th century dogma also FW's sentence changing and rehabilitation regime, because look! Result: Frederick the Great! Who accepts Dad has been right!

Now, the 1730s contemporary documents beg to differ. Chiefly the Fritz and Wilhelmine correspondence which show the Fritz & FW relationship post Küstrin was more of a jojo going up and down all the time, but even Other Seckendorff's secret journal (fed by Manteuffel reports) notes the same thing; one day it's "Fritzchen" and Fritz swearing he'd give his right arm for Dad to get better, the next it's "why no babies yet? Also, let me predict AW's future greatness!" and needlings behind close doors. (Once he's ordered to report in person in Austria, Other Seckendorff is even asked point blank how serious this father/son reconciliaton thing is in his opinion and he basically replies he thinks it's patched up on the surface, hurt feelings boiling underneath.) it occurred to me that the emotional release of venting to Wilhelmine about FW, instant of constantly holding himself in check as reported by the later accounts, was another thing that ended (at least in writing - we dont know what they said to each other in person, of course) when Fritz became King. (BTW: just for a compare and contrast: Fritz is careful not to critisize FW towards Voltaire in his 1730s letters even when Voltaire all but baits him to do it, presumably because he knows that correspondence is read by third parties from the get go. And while by what you've quoted from the Suhm and Duhan correspondences he is ready to write poetry about how those who teach and give knowledge are his spiritual fathers, there is, to my knowledge, no "Dad: still the worst!" outburst towards them, either.) So in terms of risking writing (as opposed to whatever he might have said in person to anyone around him from Fredersdorf to visiting Suhm or Manteuffel to painting that rising son, err, sun Pesne), it's Wilhelmine, full stop. (And vice versa, though we don't know that as definite because a lot of Wilhelmine's not-addressed-to-Fritz letters are still unpublished.) Wilhelmine is also the addressee of that single complaint about Mom which stands out to me so much, and it's worth rereading that 1734 letter again, because it's yet another reason why Oncken flatly calling either Knyphausen or Hotham or both a liar because of Hotham reporting in his dispatch Knyphausen quoted FW as saying "I hate him and he hates me" and that they need a break from each other about his oldest son. Looking up this letter again, I just saw that the version in the Volz edition is longer than the one in "Solange wir zu zweit sind", and also has a lengthy passage discussing sister Charlotte which had been edited out there, and which is quite intriguing.

Berlin, March 19th 17354
Dearest Sister! I envy you for not being here; for our gracious monarch and the monarchess have agreed upon taking turns of being in a bad mood. One doesn't know how one stands with them at any given point: today you get overwhelmed with tenderness, and tomorrow there are only sullen faces and unfriendly words. In short, their mood changes from one day to the next. (...) by Gustav Volz. Lotte has spoiled everything I've done for you with the Queen and nearly would have caused distress between her and me as well. Among ourselves I advise you not to put one foot into this direction and to pray for those who have to endure here: for this is the most false, most treasonous court of the world. The King's mood has become unbearable again, he hates me like sin, and the prestige of the Crown Princess has nearly been exhausted. I still mock everything and am in a good mood. I'm not sad and only pity the King who can't bring himself to show his children affection. I advise you to arrange it for the Prince Heir (her husband, serving in one of FW's regiments) to quit the service and to end any relationship with this place. But if you want to do me a favour, drag things out until May 10th when I want to present myself to you. (En route to the Rhine; as it turns out, FW would forbid that.)
To return to Lotte, who has just left (for Braunschweig), she's charming in conversation, funny and in a good mood, much more sophisticated than she used to be. She dances perfectly and always comes up with a new entertainment. At the same time, she's the most false creature of the world, and capable of the worst against those who have the misfortune to provoke her jealousy. I've studied her thoroughly, and unfortunately noticed she has a very bad character. I fear this is more a result of her general disposition than of her temper. The King and the Queen are completely enamored with her. I sooner would dare to insult their majesties than to say anything against Lotte. Which proves yet again that there is no more certain way to insinuate yourself with the Great than to applaud blindly all they want and to banish sincerity and charity from one's heart. A bad character and not worth of anyone with a good heart!

Prince Karl (Charlotte's new husband, the future Duke of Braunschweig, EC's brother) is the exact opposite. He is a good fellow and an honest bloke, a declared enemy to falseness and lies, and incapable of doing anything below his dignity. He's cheerful, can take a joke, knows my sister as well as I do and condemns her falseness for what it is worth. Which is why his dear wife has already found means and ways to badmouth him to the King, and even more to the Queen. Since my sister Charlotte was here, all my other sisters got treated like maid servants, as if they were not her equal.
This, dearest sister, is the truth about how things stand here. As you see, staying here isn't exactly character building. I'll leave sooner or later and would rather risk a shipwreck in order to avoid the other dangers of these stormy seas.

I am thoroughly pleased Benda (his musician) has your esteem. As soon as I'm at the (Rhine) campaign, I'll send you both Grauns, Schardt, Schafrath and the entire company in the hope they will entertain you. Farewell, dearest sister! You are my sole north star, and will find your faithful and truly devoted servant in me, even if this puts me into disgrace with the entire world. But I wouldn't change an inch for this.

Ooookay. Like I said, I remembered the part about FW, SD and EC, but the one about Charlotte was new to me. On the one hand, this not only backs up the claim in Wilhelmine's memoirs of Charlotte's behavior towards her (and EC) around that time. (And fits with what Mildred lets Wilhelmine think about Charlotte in her Christmas story.) Otoh, the claim that Honest Karl, Charlotte's new husband, already sees through her is something else again. Not just because as far as I know, Charlotte had one of the better royal marriages (and sided with her husband over Fritz years later when it came to Fritz' idea that his brothers-in-law were mainly on earth to contribute soldiers to his wars). But also because: doesn't Fritz entrust Charlotte with Duhan (and his correspondence with Duhan) none too much later? The most false creature of the world, who will only rat you out to FW and SD?

Which leads me to the speculation that the case of sibling jealousy depicted here isn't just Charlotte's. I mean, in the same letter, Fritz says he pities FW for not being able to show affection to his children, and that Charlotte is the current petted parental fave. As I said in regards to AW, I think Fritz could have coped better with a FW who was awful to all his children. But FW capable of showing affection, praise and tenderness without (much) of the temper tantrums and (as far as we know) the verbal abuse to the favourites like AW, Ulrike or Charlotte demonstrated he was capable of a different type of parenting, which in turn must have made Fritz secretly wonder again and again it was something about himself that was unlovable. Now, he's writing to the sister who is FW's other unfavourite (and no matter about secret resentment for not encouraging him to run away, he never had to fear she's try to win favour with their parents at his expense) and can vent there, but to continue the theme of sibling jealousy, the fact that Wilhelmine is the recipient of the letter also shouldn't be ignored, because Wilhelmine? Most definitely jealous of her sisters. (Most blatantly so after Fritz becomes King and in the last bit of her memoirs, before they break off, she's sure he dumps her as favourite sister in favour of Friederike in Ansbach.) And of course laboring with the same problem/fear Fritz does - if FW (and SD) can be loving towards the younger sibs, doesn't that prove something is wrong with her? So a factor in the letter could also be that Fritz knows he'll find open ears with not just the complaints about Mom and Dad but the complaints about Charlotte, not least because they'll reassure Wilhelmine he still loves her best. Wilhelmine's reply letter shows her actually pleading EC's case, and directly proving Charlotte really did make that ulcers-in-the-anus allegation from the unbowlderized memoirs.

Bayreuth, March 27th 1734

Dearest Brother! While your letters are always a source of great joy to me, the last one, to be honest, has made me sad: for I can see from it how much grief the Berlin lords and ladies are causing you. You seem to be in exactly the same position I was a year ago, when I was nearly driven mad and my poor health was wrecked to a degree I'm still sensing the aftermath. I wish Lotte would be so kind as to spread all her poison against me and leave you alone. Quarrells without reasons leave me indifferent since I'm not there. But what does sadden me and is the worst is that she has badmouthed the Crown Princess. She has never liked her and had described her to me in such a way I was imagining a mental and physical monstrosity. It was also her who riled up the Queen against (EC); otherwise, one could have calmed (SD) down and reasoned with her.

To be frank with you, dearest brother, your peace and quiet depends on the Crown Princess. If her standing with the King is sunk, I'm afraid you two will experience much grief. Therefore, I think it would be best if she tries everything to regain favour, with the Queen, too, who, if I may say so, due to her thoughtlessness and bias against the Crown Princess could tell the King things which could have evil results. (EC) must make (SD) little presents now and then and pretend to madly love my sister. I pity the poor Crown Princess, who has deserved a better fate. Her good heart and her kind disposition deserve recognition. Should I have the joy to greet you here, I will say some more things in this matter to you which I don't dare to entrust to my pen.

I'm familiar with Prince Karl and his good character. He is to be pitied for being married to such a creature. That she should have badmouthed him to the King and Queen is, in my opinion, the meanest thing she's done so far. But I can assure you that Lotte isn't the only one at fault for this; so is la Montbail, whose low disposition I am familiar with. I'm sure (Montbail) has goaded (Charlotte) into this; for that good lady strongly dislikes both the Crown Princess and myself. And I know why Lotte is angry with you, too. Hopefully she'll acquire a better mindset in time, but only heartbreak can improve her. (...)

Since everything in Berlin changes so quickly, I hope this will, too, and the bad moods will be over (by the time her letter arrives). As far as I can judge, the worst thing is that no one has influence on the Master's mind anymore. Even Grumbkow's and Seckendorff's credit has sunk a great deal. (I'm cutting the discussion as to whether or not Bayreuth Friedrich should quit the regiment and how far Prussia will engage in the Rhine campaign.) For my part, I'm resolved not to return to Berlin again. I know too well how things stand there and what the mood of our sovereigns are to enter the labyrinth once more which I only recall with a shudder. Our old Margrave is currently amiability itself. I f he stays that way, we'll be the happiest of mortals.

No such luck, but he won't live much longer. Anyway, heartbreak improves no one, Wilhelmine, but I'm not surprised you'd think so. The subsequent letters also deal with poor Sophie getting engaged to the Schwedt cousin, for which she's pitied by both Fritz and Wlihelmine. (Justly so, as Sophie's subsquent fate will prove.) Since SD is taking Sophie's marriage to the Margrave Schwedt (which she had explicitly not wanted for Wilhelmine, remember) on the chin and resigns herself to it, without blaming Sophie for it, Wilhelmine risks a pointed Mom obervation in her letter to Fritz from April 27th, saying It would have been nice if she'd dealt as kindly with our marriages; it would have spared us much grief. The Crown Princess deserves all the respect. People of her character are rare to find. I don't understand why the King is still disgruntled with you. Hopefully, the revue will improve this.

No such luck, as the next news is that FW forbids Fritz to visit Wilhelmine en route to the Rhine, though he's still open to a reunion on the way back. (Which Fritz will make happen though FW will have forbidden it by then as well.) Anyway, I don't get how any historian can read through the Fritz and Wilhelmine correspondence from the 1730s and emerge with the conviction that Fritz and FW had settled into a warm father/son relationship post Küstrin, or that family dynamics chez Hohenzollern in general were one bit less dysfunctional. Oh, and I do suspect that Wilhelmine's positivity about EC in these letters is also the result of Fritz having emphasized in every letter from 1732 and 1733 he mentions her how much he does not love her, but even so, it's still interesting that she speaks well of her (and gives good advice, because it's true, of course, FW's benevolence towards EC is one of the few plus factors for Fritz to bargain with). Given the sheer level of dysfunction, it's remarkable at all that Fritz and Wilhelmine ended up as allies instead of rivals. For comparison, Lord Hervey's memoirs - which are of course biased, but still, he's an eye witness - make it sound as if there were no sibling alliances among the Hannover cousins, it was all mutual scheming against (and everyone ganging up against FoW, but that didn't mean supporting each other).

Edited Date: 2021-03-23 09:22 am (UTC)

From:

felis

Oh, wow, that was new to me as well! (And Volz still cut parts of it, sigh.)

But also because: doesn't Fritz entrust Charlotte with Duhan (and his correspondence with Duhan) none too much later?

Not later, same day! He writes to Duhan, March 19th, 1734: You know the risk you run when you can only do things while trembling. This is why I have only been able to answer you now, having a good opportunity through my sister. She will tell you everything I think about you. (After that comes the "I have to be a mirror" quote btw.) So Charlotte has "just left" with this letter in her pocket.

Which certainly suggests that he does know how to deal with her, possibly indeed trading on his future position? Huh.

Also, re: venting about Dad to Duhan, this is as far as it goes, from 1736: When one indulges blindly in one's prejudices, and without examining things thoroughly, one is often prone to be seriously mistaken; hence most of the mistakes that men make. This is why it would be hoped that Father Malebranche's treatise 'The Search after Truth' was better known and read. Blood ties impose silence on me on a subject where I could explain myself more clearly, and where the subtle distinction between hating a bad deed and loving the one who commits it might vanish.

But the correspondence with Duhan was also fraught and risky in general. Looking at a less risky connection, he does vent to Camas! See the January 1739 letter for example, with lines like this: I must see him as my most cruel enemy, who spies on me constantly to find the moment when he thinks he can give me the blow of jarnac [an unexpected blow from behind].

So while I think that the "blood ties" are certainly one reason why he'd mostly talk to Wilhelmine (both the ties to her and the lacking ones to others) and why he didn't speak badly about his father later on (but still didn't go to Wusterhausen with the rest of the sibs :P), he did vent to friends as well, even in writing.

(... and now I'm back to wishing for the Keyserlingk letters. Stupid (suspected) censors.)

From:

selenak

Not later, same day!

Wow. So, to recapitulate the order of events on the 19th:

Fritz: Lotte, be a dear and smuggle this super secret letter to my old teacher Duhan for me, you know, the one Dad banished. And don't tell anyone.

Charlotte: *departs with letter*

Fritz. Dear Wilhelmine, Charlotte's the worst, a chronic sibling backstabber who even badmouths her own husband to Mom and Dad to boot!

"Mirrors his surroundings" indeed. More seriously:

Which certainly suggests that he does know how to deal with her, possibly indeed trading on his future position? Huh.

I bet. I mean, Charlotte's not stupid, and she has to know that if she ratted Fritz out to Dad, she might get a pat on the back in the short term, but in the long term, she will have the next King hostile to her. And 1734 is one of those years when FW is in such bad health that everyone thinks he'll die. So it's not like she could assume Fritz' reign to be far, far into the future, with enough time to win his favor. She has to store favors now. Otoh, I also have no problem believing Charlotte kept badmouthing Wilhelmine and EC. Because Wilhelmine is competition (not socially right now; Charlotte has married a Duke of one of the major German duchies, Wilhelmine is Margravine in some Franconian backwater), but in terms of her being Fritz' favourite. As for EC, either this is so early in the marriage that it's still up to debate whether EC might become important to Fritz - especially since he has to fake being a good husband for now - , or it's just the Hohenzollern instinct to punch downwards, combined with smelling vulnerability (the way Dad does), because EC is an easy target.

I've recently read a biography of Anna Amalia (i.e. Charlotte's daughter, not her sister; Carl August's mother), and it does mention right at the start that Anna Amalia took one of Charlotte's jokes very serious, which was a Hohenzollern family joke. The chain went thusly:

FW (when one of his younger daughters was born): too many daughters, they can't all get husbands, "Aussschuß der Natur" (Waste of nature), should start to drown them like kittens.

Charlotte (in the letter announcing Anna Amalia's birth): Had another waste of nature product (this was her second daughter), am willing to drown her if my dear Papa promises to drown my sisters Ulrike and Amalie at the same time.

Anna Amalia's opening of her memoirs: Mom called me a waste of nature.

Biographer: No sense of humor.

I mean, yes, Charlotte was clearly joking, but I can see why Anna Amalia still minded that designation and didn't forget it. And let's not forget Charlotte's willingness to cut off her other daughter, EC the younger (first wife of FW2) immediately and forever instead of taking her back after the scandal when Fritz offers that first as an alternative to locking EC up, and telling FW2 the next time she sees him when visiting Brandenburg how ashamed she was for her daughter. Conclusion: Charlotte strikes one as the type to know on which side her bread was buttered, and with not much solidarity for the (female and/or weaker) family members who were endagering her position in the family pecking order in some way.

Back to Fritz: the Camas wenting from 1739 is fascinating, because Camas' primary loyalty should in theory be to FW, and it's Fritz "stealing of officers' loyalties" that formed a great part of what FW was ranting about in 1730. Though let's not forget, 1739 is when an increasing number of people seem to be willing to risk pissing FW off in order to gain Fritz' favor, see also the Tobacco College guys rising when he enters, and Pesne painting that ceiling. They seem to have been reasonably sure that his days were numbered (despite earlier mistakes in that regard).

Keylserlingk letters: so with you.

In any event: all those negative emotions towards FW didn't suddenly go away in May 1740 just because he died, so if Fritz censored himself completely because de mortuis nihil nisi bonum, it can't have been healthy. So let's home he vented every now and then in circumstances where no future memoirist was present.

(Or else it all went into his subconcious, producing dreams like the one from the 7 Years War where he's brought to Magdeburg and accused of not loving his father enough.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Other Seckendorff is even asked point blank how serious this father/son reconciliaton thing is in his opinion and he basically replies he thinks it's patched up on the surface, hurt feelings boiling underneath.

Right on the nose, Other Seckendorff.

And while by what you've quoted from the Suhm and Duhan correspondences he is ready to write poetry about how those who teach and give knowledge are his spiritual fathers, there is, to my knowledge, no "Dad: still the worst!" outburst towards them, either.)

Nothing like the outbursts to Wilhelmine in the Suhm letters, no. The worst it gets from Fritz to Suhm is:

We kill ourselves here in performing our exercise, but are not advanced either more or less by it ; for to - day, the regiment of Prince Henry was reviewed , and after having done wonders, the King did not appear satisfied ; he even shewed an air of discontent that vexed every body. Give me sufficient reason for his anger. I cannot find one either within or without him ; and the only cause I can suppose for his ill humour, is an accidental one , an overflowing of bile , which made him look upon the poor Prince and his regiment with a misanthropical and hypochondriacal eye. God preserve me from a like fate ! My resolution would be soon taken, if such a thing happened to me . I expect with impatience the minute and moment when I shall depart from hence, and return to repose in the enjoyment of life.

Written May 28, 1736, i.e. during the big reviews.

The worst it gets from Suhm to Fritz on the subject of FW is:

As to what you tell me of Wolf's philosophy, you will be much surprised to hear that his fate is that of the times, and without having a Court thermometer, it is impossible to know what credit he is actually in. But these are things with which I trouble myself but little; for when we know the cause of that uncertainty and diversity, we enquire no more about the reason of things which are governed by arbitrary caprice, and contradictory obstinacy. -- Excuse the terms I beseech you, should you think I have said too much.

Written August 18, 1736, i.e. when Suhm is living in Berlin (although currently in Dresden) and Fritz in Ruppin.

Other than that, there's a couple of passages that could be passed off as "bad advisors":

We have had new cavils these few days past. All come from Bredow's jealousy of Wolden. The first has found means to insinuate to the King, that I am a man without religion; that Manteuffel, and yourself, had greatly contributed to pervert me; that Wolden was a fool, who played the buffoon in our houses, and was my favourite. You know that the accusation of irreligion, is the last resource of calumniators, and that having said this, there is nothing more to say. The King took fire — I kept close, my regiment did wonders; and the brandishment of arms, a little flower [sic: for flour] thrown upon the heads of the soldiers, men six feet high - and many recruits, were arguments stronger, than those of my calumniators. All is quiet at present, and religion, Wolden, my persecutors, and my regiment are no more spoken of.

Written June 22, 1737, i.e. just after the big review of that year.

The news of the day is, that the King reads Wolf's philosophy three hours a day, for which God be praised! Thus we are arrived at the triumph of reason; and I hope that the bigots and their obscure cabal will no more be able to oppress good sense and reason.

It reads like Fritz is pleased with FW and only blaming Wolff's enemies (Lange et al.), but reading between the lines...you can read that as FW being condemned for years of bigotry. But definitely between the lines!

And then there's a lot of complaints about how unhappy and bored Fritz is, during times when you know he's with FW, but again, no more explicit criticism. The worst it gets is this letter from Berlin:

A continued succession of puerile occupations keep us here from day break to sun set, in continual action.

Apparently written in May 1736, i.e. right around the time of Rococo babysitting and "There stands one who will avenge me."

Now, you know and I know and Suhm knows that "puerile occupations" are largely hunting and drinking, but Fritz is not putting that in writing, not like when he wrote to Wilhelmine in 1728:

Tomorrow, hunting to hounds, on Sunday, the day after tomorrow, hunting to hounds, and Monday, hunting to hounds again.

So yeah, the Suhm letters aren't totally free of FW criticism, but nothing like Wilhelmine.

As for Fritz's reports on Charlotte and Karl in 1737 (June 12) to Suhm:

The Duke, and my sister of Brunswick, are here. I find the first much changed, as to his person: he is stern, rigid, and the reigning Duke, as much as his grandfather. That is not very philosophical; what can be done? My sister is always the same, of an even and gay disposition, and notwithstanding the different modification of her waist, her wit is not in the least diminished or changed.

People changing when they come into power, Fritz?

I still mock everything and am in a good mood. I'm not sad

Translation: "I'm desperately sad deep inside but am repressing that and using the coping skills I've got," aka "I'm not crying, you're crying."

Oh, Fritz. :(

Given the sheer level of dysfunction, it's remarkable at all that Fritz and Wilhelmine ended up as allies instead of rivals.

Agreed. It can really go either way in dysfunctional families: "us against the world," or "me against everyone." I'm glad Wilhelmine and Fritz at least had each other as much as they did.

Edited Date: 2021-03-24 12:02 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"Mirrors his surroundings" indeed.

This family might be dysfunctional!

Charlotte (in the letter announcing Anna Amalia's birth): Had another waste of nature product (this was her second daughter), am willing to drown her if my dear Papa promises to drown my sisters Ulrike and Amalie at the same time.

This family might be dysfunctional!

So let's home he vented every now and then in circumstances where no future memoirist was present.

Let's hope! I fear at that some point, maybe post Seven Years' War, he stopped being able to vent due to everyone having died off.

(Or else it all went into his subconcious, producing dreams like the one from the 7 Years War where he's brought to Magdeburg and accused of not loving his father enough.)

Definitely not mutually exclusive. :/ Let's hope he at least got some venting in between 1740 and 1756.

and Pesne painting that ceiling

Speaking of Pesne painting ceilings, I was googling it not long ago (I was looking for a visual of the ceiling that has a book with Voltaire's and Horace's names on facing pages--do any of you know where I can find a picture? I *know* I've seen it, I have a very clear mental image, but couldn't turn it up, and I didn't see it in Selena's picspams--maybe it wasn't Rheinsberg? It's driving me crazy)--anyway, I turned up this Menzel painting of Pesne painting:

It's entitled "Crown Prince Frederick Pays a Visit to the Painter Pesne on his Scaffold at Rheinsberg". (

cahn, keep in mind that Menzel is 19th century, so this is an imaginative reconstruction.)

From:

cahn

omg although the scholarship may be not the best this is full of things that are Relevant To My Interests :D

(For example: Zelter growing up in Frederician Berlin imprinted his musical taste and his love for all things Bach, which in turn led to his student Felix Mendelssohn loving Bach, which in turn led to Mendelssohn spearheading the great Bach revival of the 19th century.)

I knew about Mendelssohn and Bach of course, but I never knew where Mehndelssohn got his love of Bach from. That's really cool!

she says that the current Habsburgs, i.e. MT & Co., were descendended from the Spanish line of the Habsburgs. While there was some intermarriage between the Spanish line and the Austrian line (that helped making the last Spanish Habsburg such a genetic wonder) after the two lines separated post Charles V., this is really a stretch, because the Spanish line notoriously ended in said genetic dead end, who had no surviving children. But okay, that's nitpicking

Yes, but I'm always very happy when you nitpick, because of course I don't know the difference :P

there's not a single mention of Gluck

WHAT yeah, like, I can forgive her all her history snafus, but NO GLUCK? :P

but, dare I say it, Vienna

LOL!

A passage from her violin trio printed in the same place proves both her deep insight in the teaching of counter point and the Instrumentalsatz.

Huh, I found this flute trio and I don't think I'd mistake it for Bach but I like it a lot. I wasn't as impressed with some of the other samples I found, but I suspect some of that is that it's all done by the wrong instruments -- I wish there were any recordings of her cantatas actually done with voice, but I suppose that's a lot harder to get together than for instrumentalists.

(There is also a recording on YouTube of Anna Amalia "of Brunswick" whom the poster says he thinks was Amalie of Prussia, for the very reason that it sounds Bachian. It sounds in general pretty impressive to me (I was never trained explicitly in counterpoint, but I know what sounds good :) ) which makes me think it must be our Amalie.)

I imagine, Herr Schulz! you to have sent by accident your child's dribbling of notes on paper instead of your own work

LOL FOREVER. This whole thing was, wow. AMALIE. MY OTHER PROBLEMATIC FAVE. :D

From:

cahn

So I never replied to this on the other thread but this is AWESOME and I think this is a GREAT CRACK IDEA :D and someone should write it ~~for me~~.

(But I also think Voltaire would work as a guy whom Fritz would talk to, if not SD... the problem is that I find it completely unbelievable that he could find out a murder happened and keep his mouth SHUT about it, even if part of him thought justice was better served that way.)

Also, in canon there's one guy who actually doesn't participate on purpose, right? It would be fun if that were Fritz... so he's at least technically free of patricide/regicide (which idk, would FS have more problems with that than with the other guys doing it? At first I thought he might, since Fritz actually becomes king from it... but I could see it both ways, maybe it's worse if it's the subjects). And then of course Fritz goes on to, well, as you say below :)

From:

selenak

Menzel is gorgeous as always. I did not know this particular Fritz painting of his!

(Is the violinist supposed to be Benda?

the ceiling that has a book with Voltaire's and Horace's names on facing pages--do any of you know where I can find a picture?

I see two likely possibilities: it's either in Fritz' study room at Rheinsberg, which currently isn't open to the public (because it's too small; you're just allowed to take a quick glimpse across the barrier), or it's in the Sanssouci library room (which you're not allowed to enter even under no covid conditions), or in Fritz' suite in the New Palace which also is currently sealed off to the public. In any event, I did not see it and thus have to guess.

Let's hope he at least got some venting in between 1740 and 1756.

Let's hope. I choose to believe he vented to Fredersdorf, whom he knew would not tell a soul. After 1756, you're right that the people he trusted and who had known FW were gone. (I mean, Pöllnitz might have been the Hohenzollern go to guy for anecdotes, but sure as hell not the guy to rant about Dad at.) However, maybe he allowed himself to express some mixed feelings to later friends like George Keith or Luccesini? (I mean, if he told Lucchesini he loved someone "like Scorates did Alcibioades" shortly before the 7 Years War, he could have told him "a part of me is still angry at Dad". ) In any event, let's also recall the remarkable fact that Fritz made the emotionally healthy and eminently sensible decision to not join the sibling trip to Wusterhausen!

(I think that place must have been opened exactly two times once FW was dead - for the family trip and later in 1799 when Heinrich decded to spend some time there ~~blend out the last twelve years~~. Unless Fritz rented it to hunting-minded aristos during his reign, which is also possible.

From:

selenak

Right on the nose, Other Seckendorff.

Of course, then he goes on to ruin his Fritz knowing score by answering the next question (about the sincerity of Fritz' friendship with Grumbkow) to the effect that good old Biberius completely won Fritz around, they hang out a lot, and Fritz seeks his advice, after all.

Thank you for all the Suhm quotes. That's certainly enough for someone who knows him as well as Suhm did to get how he feels while also being discreet enough that he won't be accused of high treason, err, not loving his father enough if the courier gets caught, so Private Citizen Suhm isn't in danger of getting strangled by FW after all.

Incidentally, doing some more rereading of the Volz edition, I'm reminded again that in the last one and a half year of FW's reign, SD told her younger children to treat Fritz not as their brother but as the future monarch (which I always translate as "no more kicking under the table, Heinrich!"), and visiting Charlotte expressed the hope that in the event of a certain tragic event, he would be like a second father to her. (Charlotte: doesn't have a large enough age gap to Fritz for that.)

Oh, and during Wilhelmine's eight months visit to Berlin in 1732/1733 which cured her of homesickness for the reminder of FW's life time, one of the ways FW showed her and BayreuthFriedrich (who as you might recall had made the mistake of talking back to FW when FW forced him to drink) his displeasure was to tell them that while he, FW, had to pay for their lunch, he wasn't willing to pay for their supper anymore, so they should do so themselves or just skip it. Punishing your adult children by withholding food: one thing FW and SD can agree on!

To introduce some cheer, while also pointing out sibling parallels, here's Wilhelmine right after her arrival in Berlin, in a letter dated November 22nd 1732 (i.e. over a year before the Fritz letter about Mom, Dad and Charlotte), when she doesn't know yet she will see Fritz all of three times in the next eight months but is expecting to see him soon, and for long:

Listen, dear brother, to the miracles you have accomplished! You were nearly the cause for me turning into an angel, for I neither ate nor drank nor slept in order to see you sooner. I'll soon believe in soul projection and will thus become a Phytagorean, for I don't know how many times I've changed my shape since leaving Bayreuth. In order to tell you of my adventures: I departed as a devil. Through your good inspiration I became an angel. Then I turned into a postillon. After my arrival here, I turned into a Westfalian ham; for all my rooms were filled with so much smoke that one could hardly endure it. Now, I've turned into a philosopher and can cope with anything but your absence. My philosophical principle is like that of Democritos, to mock everything, especially myself.

Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point. Incidentally, I had misremembered about the secret meeting on the way back from Philipsburg - the one on the way back was official, but Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less (who is entrusted by Fritz to arrange it while carrying the letter giving FW's official "no meeting!" decree). They meet at a lake in Berneck in a small country residence, and no sooner do I write it that I recall that Berneck is also where Wilhelmine will meet MT a decade later. Um.

Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

(Is the violinist supposed to be Benda?

That's what I was wondering!

I see two likely possibilities: it's either in Fritz' study room at Rheinsberg

That's what my memory told me, and Blanning confirms:

From his little library in the southern round tower Frederick could look out at lake and gardens on three sides without seeing another building. Immediately adjacent was his main library, followed by a study and a suite of eight further rooms occupying most of the south wing. On the ceiling of the tower room a painting entitled Tranquillity in the Study by the court painter Antoine Pesne depicted Minerva surrounded by personifications of the sciences, arts and literature, one of whom points to an open book in which are written the names of Frederick’s two favorite authors: Horace and Voltaire.

I know I've seen a picture of it! Holmes, I mean

felis? :D I want to show

cahn, and also it's driving me crazy.

I choose to believe he vented to Fredersdorf, whom he knew would not tell a soul.

I choose to agree!

However, maybe he allowed himself to express some mixed feelings to later friends like George Keith or Luccesini? (I mean, if he told Lucchesini he loved someone "like Scorates did Alcibioades" shortly before the 7 Years War, he could have told him "a part of me is still angry at Dad". )

I was hoping for George Keith, yeah. But if Catt is not totally fictionalizing this part and if he's representative (both doubtful!), what Fritz said was along the lines of, "Wow, growing up under Dad sucked, but also, great man, not as bad as it sounds, don't want you to think ill of the late King!" Which I almost believe just because that is soooo typical of abuse victims. And the diary definitely backs up the dreams of longing for FW's approval.

So...let's hope he got some informal therapy via in-person discussions with Fredersdorf and hopefully Wilhelmine.

I think that place must have been opened exactly two times once FW was dead

My vague, vague memories are telling me Fritz actually paid a visit to a family member for lunch early in his reign, but...ah, yes, MacDonogh this time. 1745, just after the treaty ending the Second Silesian War is concluded:

Frederick returned to his capital on 28 December. He stopped for lunch at the hated house of Wusterhausen, which he had given to William...Prince Henry went to join his brothers at Wusterhausen, and all three drove into town in an open phaeton.

Source, Bielfeld.

Checking Bielfeld, I don't actually see Wusterhausen mentioned by name. I see the open phaeton, and I see Henry going to meet Fritz somewhere south of Berlin for lunch. Which could be Wusterhausen but isn't necessarily. But Rödenbeck agrees: Der König kommt in Wusterhausen an, speist daselbst Mittags bei dem Prinzen von Preußen, und reis't nach Berlin ab.

Fritz: always surprising us, whether it's going to Wusterhausen, or electing not to go to Wusterhausen for the reunion!

From:

selenak

this is full of things that are Relevant To My Interests

It's written for you. :)

Anna Amalie of Brunswick: more commonly known as the Duchess of Weimar, Carl August's mother. As Charlotte's daughter, she was born a Brunswick. Having just read a biography of hers, she was a composer as well, like aunt she was named after. Her German wiki entry lists the following compositions as hers:
Sinfonia a due Oboi, due Flauti, due Violini, Viola e Basso di Amalija. 1765.
Oratorium (dreiteilig) (1768) (??)
Vertonung von Goethes Singspiel Erwin und Elmire (1776), gedruckt Leipzig 1921.
Vertonung von Goethes Das Jahrmarktsfest zu Plundersweilern: Ein Schönbartspiel. Zusammen mit Carl Friedrich Sigismund von Seckendorff (1778)
Sonatina per il Cembalo obligato, Corno Primo, Corno Secondo, Oboe Primo, Oboe Secondo, Flauto Primo, Flauto Secondo, Viola e Basso, di Amalia. [~ 1780 nach Christine Fornoff]
Divertimento B-Dur per il Pianoforte, Clarinetto, Viola und Violoncello. [Ms ~ 1790 nach Christine Fornoff]. Verlag Amadeus, 1992.
Authorship not certain: Partita [Sinfonia D-Dur für Bläser und Streicher]. Sächsische Landesbibliothek.

She also wrote some theoretical essays on music. So it could have been either of them. However, also possible: because Anna Amalia the Duchess in the 19th century after her death became a symbol of the peak of German culture (i.e. when Goethe, Schiller, Wieland, Herder, et all were all in the same tiny duchy, a development she'd started by hiring Wieland for Carl August and later participated in), and since one of the earliest princely libraries opened to the public (in Weimar, with over 5000 books from her personal collection) was named after her, while Amalie of Prussia became an obscure figure of Frederician history, it's just as possible a work of Amalie's got ascribed to her niece because collectors would have valued a work from the niece higher than one of the aunt.

From:

selenak

Well, if I had had more time that day, I'd have bought a catalogue at least which presumably would have had the ceiling painting in question, even if we couldn't go into the room itself. Ah well, next time.

That's what I was wondering!

Practice your German, here's a description of the painting:

Anfang der sechziger Jahre bestellte der Berliner Chemiefabrikant Kahlbaum bei Menzel, in bemerkenswerter Mischung, vier Motive aus der Kronprinzenzeit Friedrichs II. und fünf Motive aus der Gegenwart, alles Gouachen. Die einzelnen Gegenstände waren zweifellos Menzels eigene Wahl. Während einer Kur in Rheinsberg 1860 hatte er das Schloß studieren können, das Kronprinz Friedrich für seine musische Hofhaltung hatte umbauen lassen. Dabei erhielt die Decke des Ballsaales ein Deckenbild von Antoine Pesne: »Apollo vertreibt die Finsternis« (1740) – eine Allegorie, die man in der Umgebung des Kronprinzen auf den baldigen Thronwechsel bezog.
Mit großem Aufwand an bewegten Figuren, erzählerischen wie malerischen Pointen, Querblicken, Beleuchtungs- und perspektivischen Effekten schildert die kleine Komposition eine Episode während der Entstehung dieses Freskos. Wiewohl an sich belanglos, schlägt sie doch das im 19. Jahrhundert weitverbreitete Rahmenthema ›König und Künstler‹ an und berührt damit die Würde der Kunst. Man befindet sich, vom Boden abgelöst, ›bodenlos‹, in der Höhe des Malgerüstes und nimmt dennoch das Meiste aus der Untersicht wahr. Große, überlaufende Farbtöpfe stehen kipplig umher. Weil alle Künste zusammengehören, füllt der Hofmusiker Franz Benda den Raum verträumt mit seinem Bratschenspiel. Während ein Gehilfe die Palette reinigt, scherzt, eine Gerüststufe höher und fast schon mit dem Himmel des Freskos verschmelzend, Friedrichs Hofmaler Antoine Pesne mit seinem Modell. Neugierig hinaufblickend nähert sich Friedrich, dessen Erscheinen ein kräftiger Sonnenstrahl hervorhebt. Ihn begleitet der Baumeister des Schlosses, Georg Wenzeslaus von Knobelsdorff.
Der Bildraum ist aufs reichste durch die Gerüstkonstruktionen perspektivisch verbaut, alle Figuren sind Abgründen nahe, am augenfälligsten der einsame Musiker, der einem Somnambulen gleicht. Die vornübergefallene Gliederpuppe scheint nicht nur auf den Sieg der Natur über akademische Künstlichkeit anzuspielen, sondern die Perspektive als solche zu parodieren. Die Mittelachse ist mit einer schweren pyramidalen Kombination aus Figur und Gegenständen besetzt. Darunter ist ein prächtig gedrechselter barocker Stuhl – unerwartet auf einem Malgerüst. Nur die wenigen Besucher von Menzels Atelier wußten damals: Es ist Menzels eigener Stuhl! Indem er ihn, was durchaus nicht naheliegt, dem Künstler des 18. Jahrhunderts zuordnet, identifiziert er sich mit ihm und wird selbst ›der Maler Friedrichs des Großen‹. Oder anders: Der Stuhl ist noch leer, es fehlt nur noch sein Besitzer, um das Bild eines Glücksmoments der Kunst zu vervollständigen. Dies zu legitimieren, mobilisiert Menzel allen Zauber und alle Subtilität seiner Malerei.

Bielfeld: wasn't that also the occasion where all the brothers take off to visit dying Duhan? Also, since I recently checked Ziebura, this bit:

He stopped for lunch at the hated house of Wusterhausen, which he had given to William

Is a bit deceptively phrased. Because as Ziebura reminded me, FW had been very specific about Wusterhausen:

- Fritz becomes King, it goes to AW
- AW or AW's descendants become King, it goes to Heinrich
- Heinrich dies without issue, it goes to Ferdinand
- only if Ferdinand also dies without male heirs, it goes back to the crown

Meaning, Fritz wasn't "giving" as much as fulfilling FW's will. Otoh he did give AW Oranienburg, and that rather than Wusterhausen became AW's out-of-Berlin residence of choice, indicating that FW's favourite or not, they evidently didn't share a taste in palaces.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, good, that's the inexpensive one I was hoping for. Someday!

Also, apparently I forgot to comment on Amalie snark? That was amaaaaazing and I loved it!

From:

felis

Minerva and the Horace/Voltaire book: here. Really hard to see!

And that is one lovely Menzel painting! Hadn't seen that before.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, that would be outside of our fic, but:

Well, I phrased it badly, but what I was thinking was that part of the conclusion has to be: "We have a royal body with umpteen stab wounds, who takes the fall?" I assume everyone shrugging publicly and the conclusion being "We have no idea, moving on," is not a good idea. If only because it keeps people wondering and investigating and pointing fingers!

So who takes the fall?

Mind you, I'm reminded of this one line from Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys:

Major F.E. Garrett...took over the government...and ruled the country with a rod of iron until his unfortunate death from falling out of bed several years later. He fell out of bed hard enough to break a number of bones, despite the presence in his bedroom of an entire squad of soldiers, who testified that they had all tried, but failed, to break Major Garrett's fall, and despite their best efforts he was dead by the time that he arrived in the island's sole hospital.

FW's death could be like that if we leaned toward crackier and less political.

I always thought of the Gaiman passage as surrealist humor until I read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, and ever since then I've been like, "Oh, yeah, the Praetorian Guard would totally have done that." (I realize that Gibbon's scholarship is out of date and not all things attributed by him to the Praetorian Guard are still attributed to them, but still. I could see this happening to a Roman emperor.)

cahn, Gibbon is an 18th century scholar who did groundbreaking work in terms of extensive footnotes citing his sources. He's also snarky and eminently readable, as long as you can handle several volumes of 18th century English (which I can now, but could not when I first tried to read him as a teenager).

Edited Date: 2021-03-24 04:39 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

felis, who has always shown me friendship. <3

I know I've seen an up-close and readable version of the Horace and Voltaire names, but alas. If anyone runs across it, link me!

I found the Menzel painting totally by accident and had to share it!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, in canon there's one guy who actually doesn't participate on purpose, right?

CLEARLY I need to reread this. It was one of my favorites, and now it's salon-relevant. :D I'll see if I can find it as a library ebook.

Anyway, you may be right, but all I remember is someone not participating and their spouse participating instead. Which could be all wrong! My Agatha Christie-reading days were long, long ago.

Agreed on Voltaire! That was the whole premise behind his role in "Grind". :P

From:

cahn

Yeah, "on purpose" might be a somewhat ambiguous way to put it... My vague memory was that it was agreed by the murderers (possibly not by the person themself? I forget) that the spouse participate precisely so that the one who didn't participate didn't have to be guilty of the actual murder. Which I think would hit two different buttons I have, a) that everyone was willing to protect Fritz that way <3 and b) that Fritz then goes on to be a magnificent bastard ;)

Heh, we have a few Christies but for some reason this is not one of them... I may get it from the library, I really like this one too :)

From:

selenak

I remember it being the spouse insted of the actual person-with-a-motive, too. And yes, Voltaire just would not keep his mouth shut. Also it's questionable whether he'd go anywhere near FW's Prussia in the first place, since he doesn't know Fritz yet, so has no incentive.

However: if I recall correctly, 1733 is when Émilie/Voltaire become an item. You could therefore, in theory, in 1732 have Émilie as a visitor, and her motive for going anywhere near FW's Prussia might be she wants to have a look at Leipniz' manuscripts/letters at the Academy, and since she's not a mouthy poet who in 1732 I think is still in England in exile, and is a travelling French noblewoman instead, she could show up without having to fear getting into trouble. Her reason for keeping the secret might be emotion felt when laarning how FW treated scholars...

But Émilie or FW, we do neet a fall guy. Poirat's alternative explanation for the police was to pin it on an anonymous murderer who managed to get away, but that clearly would not work in a case of regicide (which has the hang, drawn and quartered penality, let me remind you, a simple beheading won't do), and neither FS nor Émilie would pin it on someone they know to be innocent.

A convenient guy to pin it on would be someone who commits suicide over a different issue entirely which the detective learns of in time to declare this person has been the killer and must have killed themselves either in repentance or to escape the horrible penalty. Hm.

Though I also like all the broken bones from Gaiman. Or maybe the murder is accomplished by everyone adding some arsenic to FW's beer and tobbaco?