Of course, then he goes on to ruin his Fritz knowing score by answering the next question (about the sincerity of Fritz' friendship with Grumbkow) to the effect that good old Biberius completely won Fritz around, they hang out a lot, and Fritz seeks his advice, after all.
Thank you for all the Suhm quotes. That's certainly enough for someone who knows him as well as Suhm did to get how he feels while also being discreet enough that he won't be accused of high treason, err, not loving his father enough if the courier gets caught, so Private Citizen Suhm isn't in danger of getting strangled by FW after all.
Incidentally, doing some more rereading of the Volz edition, I'm reminded again that in the last one and a half year of FW's reign, SD told her younger children to treat Fritz not as their brother but as the future monarch (which I always translate as "no more kicking under the table, Heinrich!"), and visiting Charlotte expressed the hope that in the event of a certain tragic event, he would be like a second father to her. (Charlotte: doesn't have a large enough age gap to Fritz for that.)
Oh, and during Wilhelmine's eight months visit to Berlin in 1732/1733 which cured her of homesickness for the reminder of FW's life time, one of the ways FW showed her and BayreuthFriedrich (who as you might recall had made the mistake of talking back to FW when FW forced him to drink) his displeasure was to tell them that while he, FW, had to pay for their lunch, he wasn't willing to pay for their supper anymore, so they should do so themselves or just skip it. Punishing your adult children by withholding food: one thing FW and SD can agree on!
To introduce some cheer, while also pointing out sibling parallels, here's Wilhelmine right after her arrival in Berlin, in a letter dated November 22nd 1732 (i.e. over a year before the Fritz letter about Mom, Dad and Charlotte), when she doesn't know yet she will see Fritz all of three times in the next eight months but is expecting to see him soon, and for long:
Listen, dear brother, to the miracles you have accomplished! You were nearly the cause for me turning into an angel, for I neither ate nor drank nor slept in order to see you sooner. I'll soon believe in soul projection and will thus become a Phytagorean, for I don't know how many times I've changed my shape since leaving Bayreuth. In order to tell you of my adventures: I departed as a devil. Through your good inspiration I became an angel. Then I turned into a postillon. After my arrival here, I turned into a Westfalian ham; for all my rooms were filled with so much smoke that one could hardly endure it. Now, I've turned into a philosopher and can cope with anything but your absence. My philosophical principle is like that of Democritos, to mock everything, especially myself.
Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point. Incidentally, I had misremembered about the secret meeting on the way back from Philipsburg - the one on the way back was official, but Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less (who is entrusted by Fritz to arrange it while carrying the letter giving FW's official "no meeting!" decree). They meet at a lake in Berneck in a small country residence, and no sooner do I write it that I recall that Berneck is also where Wilhelmine will meet MT a decade later. Um.
Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?
Of course, then he goes on to ruin his Fritz knowing score by answering the next question (about the sincerity of Fritz' friendship with Grumbkow) to the effect that good old Biberius completely won Fritz around, they hang out a lot, and Fritz seeks his advice, after all.
Uhhhh. *headdesk*
Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?
My guess would be because he's still worried about coming first with Fritz. Wilhelmine is clearly still the competition here.
Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point.
Yeah, my thought as well. But they also share the occasional playfulness coming through here! Smoked Wilhelmine, heh.
Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less
Interesting! Now that I'm more aware of Knobelsdorff, he keeps showing up, be it in Menzel paintings or as Fritz' confidant. Case in point, I came across this letter from EC to her brother from 1745: "I am delighted that Knobelsdorff is going to visit the king. Since he knows him, he can speak more boldly to him; for I am in the utmost worry for the king and I fear that the grief he feels about Keyserlingk's death will damage his health: all letters to his friends concern only Keyserlingk and laments about his loss; some letters are wiped out by tears." (Which fits perfectly with the "1 October, Knobelsdorff visits Fritz on campaign" entry you included in the timeline.) ... aaand I see that Knobelsdorff is another case of basically no surviving letters from Fritz. Hm.
I wonder whether Fritz wanted his letters back? Not from Knobelsdorff, from his life partner, Lotte Schöne. We really have reason to be grateful that Mrs. Fredersdorff cheated when getting that request. This said, the letters from the Crown Prince years might have been destroyed upon receival anyway because FW and the value of discretion.
EC and Knobelsdorff, two thoughts:
1) She kept the profile portrait Knobelsdorff painted of Fritz in Schönhausen with her, where the description text there today says it was her favourite depiction of Fritz. (Since it's less idealized than the Pesne Crown Prince paintings, I'm assuming it's also more similar? Anyway, she probably knew Knobelsdorff from the Rheinsberg days. It's also both touching and sad that she guesses a friend like Knobelsdorff will be able to talk to Fritz and comfort him in a way she can't.
2) HANG ON HANG ON the timing! Just when does she write this letter? Because:
Battle near Soor: 30th September. Knobelsdorff with Fritz: October 1st.
And isn't that also when one of EC's brothers has died and Fritz writes his all time worst record breaking condolence letter?
And isn't that also when one of EC's brothers has died and Fritz writes his all time worst record breaking condolence letter?
I'm at work but YES! October 2, he writes a letter to EC that doesn't mention the brother. October 5, EC grumps that she hasn't heard a syllable from him. October 9, record breaking condolence letter!
Huh, never thought about that and totally forgot about the Fredersdorf ones. Good point.
I'm assuming it's also more similar?
Weeell, it's the one that famously has the straight-line forehead and nose, isn't it? We know that one isn't exactly true to nature. ;)
she probably knew Knobelsdorff from the Rheinsberg days
I'd definitely say so, yeah.
And oh, I had not noticed the timing re: condolence letter! Unfortunately, Preuss doesn't give the date of EC's letter, so I can't tell you when exactly she wrote it, but it must have been before October 1st, because she's talking about Knobelsdorff's trip as something that hasn't happened yet. Poor EC. :( It's just sad all around.
My philosophical principle is like that of Democritos, to mock everything, especially myself.
Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point.
:( But at least they had defense mechanisms, I guess? Seems like a common one for their Hohenzollern generation, anyway...
but Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less (who is entrusted by Fritz to arrange it while carrying the letter giving FW's official "no meeting!" decree). They meet at a lake in Berneck in a small country residence
I gotta say I'm glad that they did get to meet; it made me sad when you said above that they didn't get to.
and no sooner do I write it that I recall that Berneck is also where Wilhelmine will meet MT a decade later. Um.
I gotta say I'm glad that they did get to meet; it made me sad when you said above that they didn't get to.
Wilhelmine, in her written-during-the-breakup memoirs, says "my brother loaded me with caresses" and that "it was the last time we were on the old footing - what a change has taken place since then!"
This doesn't just refer to their 1740s quarrels but to Fritz, when he was on his way back to Berlin after Philipsburg, fully expected to become King (FW having gotten so ill that everyone predicted his imminent death in the autumn/winter of 1734) and came across as "preoccupied and withdrawn", plus he lectured her on what her husband should do for Prussia. Whereas the secret Knobelsdorff-arranged meeting was a no holds bared us-against-the-world reunion. However, like I said: this is written in retrospect in a time when she was arguing with him and venting through memoirs-writing. This said, Fritz in his next letter to Wilhelmine opens by thanking her for the wonderful meeting in the house at the lake, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was significant in his memory, too, enough so to be doubly angry when learning about lunch with MT in the same town! (No idea whether it was also the same place.)
Fritz in his next letter to Wilhelmine opens by thanking her for the wonderful meeting in the house at the lake, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was significant in his memory, too, enough so to be doubly angry when learning about lunch with MT in the same town!
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timeasmymeasure
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 07:15 am (UTC)Of course, then he goes on to ruin his Fritz knowing score by answering the next question (about the sincerity of Fritz' friendship with Grumbkow) to the effect that good old Biberius completely won Fritz around, they hang out a lot, and Fritz seeks his advice, after all.
Thank you for all the Suhm quotes. That's certainly enough for someone who knows him as well as Suhm did to get how he feels while also being discreet enough that he won't be accused of high treason, err, not loving his father enough if the courier gets caught, so Private Citizen Suhm isn't in danger of getting strangled by FW after all.
Incidentally, doing some more rereading of the Volz edition, I'm reminded again that in the last one and a half year of FW's reign, SD told her younger children to treat Fritz not as their brother but as the future monarch (which I always translate as "no more kicking under the table, Heinrich!"), and visiting Charlotte expressed the hope that in the event of a certain tragic event, he would be like a second father to her. (Charlotte: doesn't have a large enough age gap to Fritz for that.)
Oh, and during Wilhelmine's eight months visit to Berlin in 1732/1733 which cured her of homesickness for the reminder of FW's life time, one of the ways FW showed her and BayreuthFriedrich (who as you might recall had made the mistake of talking back to FW when FW forced him to drink) his displeasure was to tell them that while he, FW, had to pay for their lunch, he wasn't willing to pay for their supper anymore, so they should do so themselves or just skip it. Punishing your adult children by withholding food: one thing FW and SD can agree on!
To introduce some cheer, while also pointing out sibling parallels, here's Wilhelmine right after her arrival in Berlin, in a letter dated November 22nd 1732 (i.e. over a year before the Fritz letter about Mom, Dad and Charlotte), when she doesn't know yet she will see Fritz all of three times in the next eight months but is expecting to see him soon, and for long:
Listen, dear brother, to the miracles you have accomplished! You were nearly the cause for me turning into an angel, for I neither ate nor drank nor slept in order to see you sooner. I'll soon believe in soul projection and will thus become a Phytagorean, for I don't know how many times I've changed my shape since leaving Bayreuth. In order to tell you of my adventures: I departed as a devil. Through your good inspiration I became an angel. Then I turned into a postillon. After my arrival here, I turned into a Westfalian ham; for all my rooms were filled with so much smoke that one could hardly endure it. Now, I've turned into a philosopher and can cope with anything but your absence. My philosophical principle is like that of Democritos, to mock everything, especially myself.
Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point. Incidentally, I had misremembered about the secret meeting on the way back from Philipsburg - the one on the way back was official, but Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less (who is entrusted by Fritz to arrange it while carrying the letter giving FW's official "no meeting!" decree). They meet at a lake in Berneck in a small country residence, and no sooner do I write it that I recall that Berneck is also where Wilhelmine will meet MT a decade later. Um.
Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-25 12:53 pm (UTC)Uhhhh. *headdesk*
Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?
My guess would be because he's still worried about coming first with Fritz. Wilhelmine is clearly still the competition here.
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-25 02:29 pm (UTC)Yeah, my thought as well. But they also share the occasional playfulness coming through here! Smoked Wilhelmine, heh.
Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less
Interesting! Now that I'm more aware of Knobelsdorff, he keeps showing up, be it in Menzel paintings or as Fritz' confidant. Case in point, I came across this letter from EC to her brother from 1745: "I am delighted that Knobelsdorff is going to visit the king. Since he knows him, he can speak more boldly to him; for I am in the utmost worry for the king and I fear that the grief he feels about Keyserlingk's death will damage his health: all letters to his friends concern only Keyserlingk and laments about his loss; some letters are wiped out by tears." (Which fits perfectly with the "1 October, Knobelsdorff visits Fritz on campaign" entry you included in the timeline.) ... aaand I see that Knobelsdorff is another case of basically no surviving letters from Fritz. Hm.
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-25 05:09 pm (UTC)EC and Knobelsdorff, two thoughts:
1) She kept the profile portrait Knobelsdorff painted of Fritz in Schönhausen with her, where the description text there today says it was her favourite depiction of Fritz. (Since it's less idealized than the Pesne Crown Prince paintings, I'm assuming it's also more similar? Anyway, she probably knew Knobelsdorff from the Rheinsberg days. It's also both touching and sad that she guesses a friend like Knobelsdorff will be able to talk to Fritz and comfort him in a way she can't.
2) HANG ON HANG ON the timing! Just when does she write this letter? Because:
Battle near Soor: 30th September.
Knobelsdorff with Fritz: October 1st.
And isn't that also when one of EC's brothers has died and Fritz writes his all time worst record breaking condolence letter?
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-25 05:45 pm (UTC)I'm at work but YES! October 2, he writes a letter to EC that doesn't mention the brother. October 5, EC grumps that she hasn't heard a syllable from him. October 9, record breaking condolence letter!
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-25 09:16 pm (UTC)Huh, never thought about that and totally forgot about the Fredersdorf ones. Good point.
I'm assuming it's also more similar?
Weeell, it's the one that famously has the straight-line forehead and nose, isn't it? We know that one isn't exactly true to nature. ;)
she probably knew Knobelsdorff from the Rheinsberg days
I'd definitely say so, yeah.
And oh, I had not noticed the timing re: condolence letter! Unfortunately, Preuss doesn't give the date of EC's letter, so I can't tell you when exactly she wrote it, but it must have been before October 1st, because she's talking about Knobelsdorff's trip as something that hasn't happened yet. Poor EC. :( It's just sad all around.
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-26 05:31 am (UTC)Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point.
:( But at least they had defense mechanisms, I guess? Seems like a common one for their Hohenzollern generation, anyway...
but Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less (who is entrusted by Fritz to arrange it while carrying the letter giving FW's official "no meeting!" decree). They meet at a lake in Berneck in a small country residence
I gotta say I'm glad that they did get to meet; it made me sad when you said above that they didn't get to.
and no sooner do I write it that I recall that Berneck is also where Wilhelmine will meet MT a decade later. Um.
Heh.
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-26 06:55 am (UTC)I gotta say I'm glad that they did get to meet; it made me sad when you said above that they didn't get to.
Wilhelmine, in her written-during-the-breakup memoirs, says "my brother loaded me with caresses" and that "it was the last time we were on the old footing - what a change has taken place since then!"
This doesn't just refer to their 1740s quarrels but to Fritz, when he was on his way back to Berlin after Philipsburg, fully expected to become King (FW having gotten so ill that everyone predicted his imminent death in the autumn/winter of 1734) and came across as "preoccupied and withdrawn", plus he lectured her on what her husband should do for Prussia. Whereas the secret Knobelsdorff-arranged meeting was a no holds bared us-against-the-world reunion. However, like I said: this is written in retrospect in a time when she was arguing with him and venting through memoirs-writing. This said, Fritz in his next letter to Wilhelmine opens by thanking her for the wonderful meeting in the house at the lake, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was significant in his memory, too, enough so to be doubly angry when learning about lunch with MT in the same town! (No idea whether it was also the same place.)
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-26 10:37 am (UTC)!! I love the connection you discovered here.