Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-24 12:02 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Other Seckendorff is even asked point blank how serious this father/son reconciliaton thing is in his opinion and he basically replies he thinks it's patched up on the surface, hurt feelings boiling underneath.

Right on the nose, Other Seckendorff.

And while by what you've quoted from the Suhm and Duhan correspondences he is ready to write poetry about how those who teach and give knowledge are his spiritual fathers, there is, to my knowledge, no "Dad: still the worst!" outburst towards them, either.)

Nothing like the outbursts to Wilhelmine in the Suhm letters, no. The worst it gets from Fritz to Suhm is:

We kill ourselves here in performing our exercise, but are not advanced either more or less by it ; for to - day, the regiment of Prince Henry was reviewed , and after having done wonders, the King did not appear satisfied ; he even shewed an air of discontent that vexed every body. Give me sufficient reason for his anger. I cannot find one either within or without him ; and the only cause I can suppose for his ill humour, is an accidental one , an overflowing of bile , which made him look upon the poor Prince and his regiment with a misanthropical and hypochondriacal eye. God preserve me from a like fate ! My resolution would be soon taken, if such a thing happened to me . I expect with impatience the minute and moment when I shall depart from hence, and return to repose in the enjoyment of life.

Written May 28, 1736, i.e. during the big reviews.

The worst it gets from Suhm to Fritz on the subject of FW is:

As to what you tell me of Wolf's philosophy, you will be much surprised to hear that his fate is that of the times, and without having a Court thermometer, it is impossible to know what credit he is actually in. But these are things with which I trouble myself but little; for when we know the cause of that uncertainty and diversity, we enquire no more about the reason of things which are governed by arbitrary caprice, and contradictory obstinacy. -- Excuse the terms I beseech you, should you think I have said too much.

Written August 18, 1736, i.e. when Suhm is living in Berlin (although currently in Dresden) and Fritz in Ruppin.

Other than that, there's a couple of passages that could be passed off as "bad advisors":

We have had new cavils these few days past. All come from Bredow's jealousy of Wolden. The first has found means to insinuate to the King, that I am a man without religion; that Manteuffel, and yourself, had greatly contributed to pervert me; that Wolden was a fool, who played the buffoon in our houses, and was my favourite. You know that the accusation of irreligion, is the last resource of calumniators, and that having said this, there is nothing more to say. The King took fire — I kept close, my regiment did wonders; and the brandishment of arms, a little flower [sic: for flour] thrown upon the heads of the soldiers, men six feet high - and many recruits, were arguments stronger, than those of my calumniators. All is quiet at present, and religion, Wolden, my persecutors, and my regiment are no more spoken of.

Written June 22, 1737, i.e. just after the big review of that year.

The news of the day is, that the King reads Wolf's philosophy three hours a day, for which God be praised! Thus we are arrived at the triumph of reason; and I hope that the bigots and their obscure cabal will no more be able to oppress good sense and reason.

It reads like Fritz is pleased with FW and only blaming Wolff's enemies (Lange et al.), but reading between the lines...you can read that as FW being condemned for years of bigotry. But definitely between the lines!

And then there's a lot of complaints about how unhappy and bored Fritz is, during times when you know he's with FW, but again, no more explicit criticism. The worst it gets is this letter from Berlin:

A continued succession of puerile occupations keep us here from day break to sun set, in continual action.

Apparently written in May 1736, i.e. right around the time of Rococo babysitting and "There stands one who will avenge me."

Now, you know and I know and Suhm knows that "puerile occupations" are largely hunting and drinking, but Fritz is not putting that in writing, not like when he wrote to Wilhelmine in 1728:

Tomorrow, hunting to hounds, on Sunday, the day after tomorrow, hunting to hounds, and Monday, hunting to hounds again.

So yeah, the Suhm letters aren't totally free of FW criticism, but nothing like Wilhelmine.

As for Fritz's reports on Charlotte and Karl in 1737 (June 12) to Suhm:

The Duke, and my sister of Brunswick, are here. I find the first much changed, as to his person: he is stern, rigid, and the reigning Duke, as much as his grandfather. That is not very philosophical; what can be done? My sister is always the same, of an even and gay disposition, and notwithstanding the different modification of her waist, her wit is not in the least diminished or changed.

People changing when they come into power, Fritz?

I still mock everything and am in a good mood. I'm not sad

Translation: "I'm desperately sad deep inside but am repressing that and using the coping skills I've got," aka "I'm not crying, you're crying."

Oh, Fritz. :(

Given the sheer level of dysfunction, it's remarkable at all that Fritz and Wilhelmine ended up as allies instead of rivals.

Agreed. It can really go either way in dysfunctional families: "us against the world," or "me against everyone." I'm glad Wilhelmine and Fritz at least had each other as much as they did.
Edited Date: 2021-03-24 12:02 am (UTC)

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-24 07:15 am (UTC)
selenak: (Siblings)
From: [personal profile] selenak
Right on the nose, Other Seckendorff.

Of course, then he goes on to ruin his Fritz knowing score by answering the next question (about the sincerity of Fritz' friendship with Grumbkow) to the effect that good old Biberius completely won Fritz around, they hang out a lot, and Fritz seeks his advice, after all.

Thank you for all the Suhm quotes. That's certainly enough for someone who knows him as well as Suhm did to get how he feels while also being discreet enough that he won't be accused of high treason, err, not loving his father enough if the courier gets caught, so Private Citizen Suhm isn't in danger of getting strangled by FW after all.

Incidentally, doing some more rereading of the Volz edition, I'm reminded again that in the last one and a half year of FW's reign, SD told her younger children to treat Fritz not as their brother but as the future monarch (which I always translate as "no more kicking under the table, Heinrich!"), and visiting Charlotte expressed the hope that in the event of a certain tragic event, he would be like a second father to her. (Charlotte: doesn't have a large enough age gap to Fritz for that.)

Oh, and during Wilhelmine's eight months visit to Berlin in 1732/1733 which cured her of homesickness for the reminder of FW's life time, one of the ways FW showed her and BayreuthFriedrich (who as you might recall had made the mistake of talking back to FW when FW forced him to drink) his displeasure was to tell them that while he, FW, had to pay for their lunch, he wasn't willing to pay for their supper anymore, so they should do so themselves or just skip it. Punishing your adult children by withholding food: one thing FW and SD can agree on!

To introduce some cheer, while also pointing out sibling parallels, here's Wilhelmine right after her arrival in Berlin, in a letter dated November 22nd 1732 (i.e. over a year before the Fritz letter about Mom, Dad and Charlotte), when she doesn't know yet she will see Fritz all of three times in the next eight months but is expecting to see him soon, and for long:

Listen, dear brother, to the miracles you have accomplished! You were nearly the cause for me turning into an angel, for I neither ate nor drank nor slept in order to see you sooner. I'll soon believe in soul projection and will thus become a Phytagorean, for I don't know how many times I've changed my shape since leaving Bayreuth. In order to tell you of my adventures: I departed as a devil. Through your good inspiration I became an angel. Then I turned into a postillon. After my arrival here, I turned into a Westfalian ham; for all my rooms were filled with so much smoke that one could hardly endure it. Now, I've turned into a philosopher and can cope with anything but your absence. My philosophical principle is like that of Democritos, to mock everything, especially myself.

Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point. Incidentally, I had misremembered about the secret meeting on the way back from Philipsburg - the one on the way back was official, but Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less (who is entrusted by Fritz to arrange it while carrying the letter giving FW's official "no meeting!" decree). They meet at a lake in Berneck in a small country residence, and no sooner do I write it that I recall that Berneck is also where Wilhelmine will meet MT a decade later. Um.

Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-25 12:53 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Of course, then he goes on to ruin his Fritz knowing score by answering the next question (about the sincerity of Fritz' friendship with Grumbkow) to the effect that good old Biberius completely won Fritz around, they hang out a lot, and Fritz seeks his advice, after all.

Uhhhh. *headdesk*

Also: why do we think FW is still forbidding meetings between Fritz and Wilhelmine when there's most of the HRE between them anyway, and they have both submitted to him in their marriages? To test their obedience? Because he can?

My guess would be because he's still worried about coming first with Fritz. Wilhelmine is clearly still the competition here.

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-25 02:29 pm (UTC)
felis: (House renfair)
From: [personal profile] felis
Conclusion: their defense mechanisms are pretty identical at this point.

Yeah, my thought as well. But they also share the occasional playfulness coming through here! Smoked Wilhelmine, heh.

Fritz had arranged a secret meeting on his way to the front, via Knobelsdorff, no less

Interesting! Now that I'm more aware of Knobelsdorff, he keeps showing up, be it in Menzel paintings or as Fritz' confidant. Case in point, I came across this letter from EC to her brother from 1745: "I am delighted that Knobelsdorff is going to visit the king. Since he knows him, he can speak more boldly to him; for I am in the utmost worry for the king and I fear that the grief he feels about Keyserlingk's death will damage his health: all letters to his friends concern only Keyserlingk and laments about his loss; some letters are wiped out by tears." (Which fits perfectly with the "1 October, Knobelsdorff visits Fritz on campaign" entry you included in the timeline.) ... aaand I see that Knobelsdorff is another case of basically no surviving letters from Fritz. Hm.

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-25 05:09 pm (UTC)
selenak: (Sanssouci)
From: [personal profile] selenak
I wonder whether Fritz wanted his letters back? Not from Knobelsdorff, from his life partner, Lotte Schöne. We really have reason to be grateful that Mrs. Fredersdorff cheated when getting that request. This said, the letters from the Crown Prince years might have been destroyed upon receival anyway because FW and the value of discretion.

EC and Knobelsdorff, two thoughts:

1) She kept the profile portrait Knobelsdorff painted of Fritz in Schönhausen with her, where the description text there today says it was her favourite depiction of Fritz. (Since it's less idealized than the Pesne Crown Prince paintings, I'm assuming it's also more similar? Anyway, she probably knew Knobelsdorff from the Rheinsberg days. It's also both touching and sad that she guesses a friend like Knobelsdorff will be able to talk to Fritz and comfort him in a way she can't.

2) HANG ON HANG ON the timing! Just when does she write this letter? Because:

Battle near Soor: 30th September.
Knobelsdorff with Fritz: October 1st.

And isn't that also when one of EC's brothers has died and Fritz writes his all time worst record breaking condolence letter?

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-25 05:45 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
And isn't that also when one of EC's brothers has died and Fritz writes his all time worst record breaking condolence letter?

I'm at work but YES! October 2, he writes a letter to EC that doesn't mention the brother. October 5, EC grumps that she hasn't heard a syllable from him. October 9, record breaking condolence letter!

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-25 09:16 pm (UTC)
felis: (House renfair)
From: [personal profile] felis
I wonder whether Fritz wanted his letters back?

Huh, never thought about that and totally forgot about the Fredersdorf ones. Good point.

I'm assuming it's also more similar?

Weeell, it's the one that famously has the straight-line forehead and nose, isn't it? We know that one isn't exactly true to nature. ;)

she probably knew Knobelsdorff from the Rheinsberg days

I'd definitely say so, yeah.

And oh, I had not noticed the timing re: condolence letter! Unfortunately, Preuss doesn't give the date of EC's letter, so I can't tell you when exactly she wrote it, but it must have been before October 1st, because she's talking about Knobelsdorff's trip as something that hasn't happened yet. Poor EC. :( It's just sad all around.

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-26 06:55 am (UTC)
selenak: (Siblings)
From: [personal profile] selenak

I gotta say I'm glad that they did get to meet; it made me sad when you said above that they didn't get to.


Wilhelmine, in her written-during-the-breakup memoirs, says "my brother loaded me with caresses" and that "it was the last time we were on the old footing - what a change has taken place since then!"

This doesn't just refer to their 1740s quarrels but to Fritz, when he was on his way back to Berlin after Philipsburg, fully expected to become King (FW having gotten so ill that everyone predicted his imminent death in the autumn/winter of 1734) and came across as "preoccupied and withdrawn", plus he lectured her on what her husband should do for Prussia. Whereas the secret Knobelsdorff-arranged meeting was a no holds bared us-against-the-world reunion. However, like I said: this is written in retrospect in a time when she was arguing with him and venting through memoirs-writing. This said, Fritz in his next letter to Wilhelmine opens by thanking her for the wonderful meeting in the house at the lake, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was significant in his memory, too, enough so to be doubly angry when learning about lunch with MT in the same town! (No idea whether it was also the same place.)

Re: More on Hohenzollern family life

Date: 2021-03-26 10:37 am (UTC)
felis: (House renfair)
From: [personal profile] felis
Fritz in his next letter to Wilhelmine opens by thanking her for the wonderful meeting in the house at the lake, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was significant in his memory, too, enough so to be doubly angry when learning about lunch with MT in the same town!

!! I love the connection you discovered here.

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