Charlotte (in the letter announcing Anna Amalia's birth): Had another waste of nature product (this was her second daughter), am willing to drown her if my dear Papa promises to drown my sisters Ulrike and Amalie at the same time.
This family might be dysfunctional!
So let's home he vented every now and then in circumstances where no future memoirist was present.
Let's hope! I fear at that some point, maybe post Seven Years' War, he stopped being able to vent due to everyone having died off.
(Or else it all went into his subconcious, producing dreams like the one from the 7 Years War where he's brought to Magdeburg and accused of not loving his father enough.)
Definitely not mutually exclusive. :/ Let's hope he at least got some venting in between 1740 and 1756.
and Pesne painting that ceiling
Speaking of Pesne painting ceilings, I was googling it not long ago (I was looking for a visual of the ceiling that has a book with Voltaire's and Horace's names on facing pages--do any of you know where I can find a picture? I *know* I've seen it, I have a very clear mental image, but couldn't turn it up, and I didn't see it in Selena's picspams--maybe it wasn't Rheinsberg? It's driving me crazy)--anyway, I turned up this Menzel painting of Pesne painting:
It's entitled "Crown Prince Frederick Pays a Visit to the Painter Pesne on his Scaffold at Rheinsberg". (cahn, keep in mind that Menzel is 19th century, so this is an imaginative reconstruction.)
Menzel is gorgeous as always. I did not know this particular Fritz painting of his!
(Is the violinist supposed to be Benda?
the ceiling that has a book with Voltaire's and Horace's names on facing pages--do any of you know where I can find a picture?
I see two likely possibilities: it's either in Fritz' study room at Rheinsberg, which currently isn't open to the public (because it's too small; you're just allowed to take a quick glimpse across the barrier), or it's in the Sanssouci library room (which you're not allowed to enter even under no covid conditions), or in Fritz' suite in the New Palace which also is currently sealed off to the public. In any event, I did not see it and thus have to guess.
Let's hope he at least got some venting in between 1740 and 1756.
Let's hope. I choose to believe he vented to Fredersdorf, whom he knew would not tell a soul. After 1756, you're right that the people he trusted and who had known FW were gone. (I mean, Pöllnitz might have been the Hohenzollern go to guy for anecdotes, but sure as hell not the guy to rant about Dad at.) However, maybe he allowed himself to express some mixed feelings to later friends like George Keith or Luccesini? (I mean, if he told Lucchesini he loved someone "like Scorates did Alcibioades" shortly before the 7 Years War, he could have told him "a part of me is still angry at Dad". ) In any event, let's also recall the remarkable fact that Fritz made the emotionally healthy and eminently sensible decision to not join the sibling trip to Wusterhausen!
(I think that place must have been opened exactly two times once FW was dead - for the family trip and later in 1799 when Heinrich decded to spend some time there blend out the last twelve years. Unless Fritz rented it to hunting-minded aristos during his reign, which is also possible.
I see two likely possibilities: it's either in Fritz' study room at Rheinsberg
That's what my memory told me, and Blanning confirms:
From his little library in the southern round tower Frederick could look out at lake and gardens on three sides without seeing another building. Immediately adjacent was his main library, followed by a study and a suite of eight further rooms occupying most of the south wing. On the ceiling of the tower room a painting entitled Tranquillity in the Study by the court painter Antoine Pesne depicted Minerva surrounded by personifications of the sciences, arts and literature, one of whom points to an open book in which are written the names of Frederick’s two favorite authors: Horace and Voltaire.
I know I've seen a picture of it! Holmes, I mean felis? :D I want to show cahn, and also it's driving me crazy.
I choose to believe he vented to Fredersdorf, whom he knew would not tell a soul.
I choose to agree!
However, maybe he allowed himself to express some mixed feelings to later friends like George Keith or Luccesini? (I mean, if he told Lucchesini he loved someone "like Scorates did Alcibioades" shortly before the 7 Years War, he could have told him "a part of me is still angry at Dad". )
I was hoping for George Keith, yeah. But if Catt is not totally fictionalizing this part and if he's representative (both doubtful!), what Fritz said was along the lines of, "Wow, growing up under Dad sucked, but also, great man, not as bad as it sounds, don't want you to think ill of the late King!" Which I almost believe just because that is soooo typical of abuse victims. And the diary definitely backs up the dreams of longing for FW's approval.
So...let's hope he got some informal therapy via in-person discussions with Fredersdorf and hopefully Wilhelmine.
I think that place must have been opened exactly two times once FW was dead
My vague, vague memories are telling me Fritz actually paid a visit to a family member for lunch early in his reign, but...ah, yes, MacDonogh this time. 1745, just after the treaty ending the Second Silesian War is concluded:
Frederick returned to his capital on 28 December. He stopped for lunch at the hated house of Wusterhausen, which he had given to William...Prince Henry went to join his brothers at Wusterhausen, and all three drove into town in an open phaeton.
Source, Bielfeld.
Checking Bielfeld, I don't actually see Wusterhausen mentioned by name. I see the open phaeton, and I see Henry going to meet Fritz somewhere south of Berlin for lunch. Which could be Wusterhausen but isn't necessarily. But Rödenbeck agrees: Der König kommt in Wusterhausen an, speist daselbst Mittags bei dem Prinzen von Preußen, und reis't nach Berlin ab.
Fritz: always surprising us, whether it's going to Wusterhausen, or electing not to go to Wusterhausen for the reunion!
Well, if I had had more time that day, I'd have bought a catalogue at least which presumably would have had the ceiling painting in question, even if we couldn't go into the room itself. Ah well, next time.
That's what I was wondering!
Practice your German, here's a description of the painting:
Anfang der sechziger Jahre bestellte der Berliner Chemiefabrikant Kahlbaum bei Menzel, in bemerkenswerter Mischung, vier Motive aus der Kronprinzenzeit Friedrichs II. und fünf Motive aus der Gegenwart, alles Gouachen. Die einzelnen Gegenstände waren zweifellos Menzels eigene Wahl. Während einer Kur in Rheinsberg 1860 hatte er das Schloß studieren können, das Kronprinz Friedrich für seine musische Hofhaltung hatte umbauen lassen. Dabei erhielt die Decke des Ballsaales ein Deckenbild von Antoine Pesne: »Apollo vertreibt die Finsternis« (1740) – eine Allegorie, die man in der Umgebung des Kronprinzen auf den baldigen Thronwechsel bezog. Mit großem Aufwand an bewegten Figuren, erzählerischen wie malerischen Pointen, Querblicken, Beleuchtungs- und perspektivischen Effekten schildert die kleine Komposition eine Episode während der Entstehung dieses Freskos. Wiewohl an sich belanglos, schlägt sie doch das im 19. Jahrhundert weitverbreitete Rahmenthema ›König und Künstler‹ an und berührt damit die Würde der Kunst. Man befindet sich, vom Boden abgelöst, ›bodenlos‹, in der Höhe des Malgerüstes und nimmt dennoch das Meiste aus der Untersicht wahr. Große, überlaufende Farbtöpfe stehen kipplig umher. Weil alle Künste zusammengehören, füllt der Hofmusiker Franz Benda den Raum verträumt mit seinem Bratschenspiel. Während ein Gehilfe die Palette reinigt, scherzt, eine Gerüststufe höher und fast schon mit dem Himmel des Freskos verschmelzend, Friedrichs Hofmaler Antoine Pesne mit seinem Modell. Neugierig hinaufblickend nähert sich Friedrich, dessen Erscheinen ein kräftiger Sonnenstrahl hervorhebt. Ihn begleitet der Baumeister des Schlosses, Georg Wenzeslaus von Knobelsdorff. Der Bildraum ist aufs reichste durch die Gerüstkonstruktionen perspektivisch verbaut, alle Figuren sind Abgründen nahe, am augenfälligsten der einsame Musiker, der einem Somnambulen gleicht. Die vornübergefallene Gliederpuppe scheint nicht nur auf den Sieg der Natur über akademische Künstlichkeit anzuspielen, sondern die Perspektive als solche zu parodieren. Die Mittelachse ist mit einer schweren pyramidalen Kombination aus Figur und Gegenständen besetzt. Darunter ist ein prächtig gedrechselter barocker Stuhl – unerwartet auf einem Malgerüst. Nur die wenigen Besucher von Menzels Atelier wußten damals: Es ist Menzels eigener Stuhl! Indem er ihn, was durchaus nicht naheliegt, dem Künstler des 18. Jahrhunderts zuordnet, identifiziert er sich mit ihm und wird selbst ›der Maler Friedrichs des Großen‹. Oder anders: Der Stuhl ist noch leer, es fehlt nur noch sein Besitzer, um das Bild eines Glücksmoments der Kunst zu vervollständigen. Dies zu legitimieren, mobilisiert Menzel allen Zauber und alle Subtilität seiner Malerei.
Bielfeld: wasn't that also the occasion where all the brothers take off to visit dying Duhan? Also, since I recently checked Ziebura, this bit:
He stopped for lunch at the hated house of Wusterhausen, which he had given to William
Is a bit deceptively phrased. Because as Ziebura reminded me, FW had been very specific about Wusterhausen:
- Fritz becomes King, it goes to AW - AW or AW's descendants become King, it goes to Heinrich - Heinrich dies without issue, it goes to Ferdinand - only if Ferdinand also dies without male heirs, it goes back to the crown
Meaning, Fritz wasn't "giving" as much as fulfilling FW's will. Otoh he did give AW Oranienburg, and that rather than Wusterhausen became AW's out-of-Berlin residence of choice, indicating that FW's favourite or not, they evidently didn't share a taste in palaces.
... has any of you come across this one before? The subtitle reads "Ein Kammerhusar Friedrichs des Großen. Oelgemälde im Neuen Palais" and I have not been able to find out if it survived, if the title is accurate, who painted it or when (which could help narrow down both authenticity and possible suspects). I think I read somewhere that Fritz did indeed have some of them painted? Or was that an urban legend?
Speaking of Fritz having his favourites painted, in the same issue, there are these two dog paintings. The one on the right we've encountered before - "Solange wir zu zweit sind" claims it's Biche - but the one on the left was all new to me. He did have a whole gallery apparently!
Oh, and Mildred, re: the Horace/Voltaire book - I think I've seen a close up before as well, and since it isn't in any of the books I own (I did suspect Blanning actually, but nope), it must have been online somewhere. Strange.
I think I read somewhere that Fritz did indeed have some of them painted? Or was that an urban legend?
Not ringing a bell; we'll wait to see what the well-read selenak reports.
If so, the Potsdam Giants come to mind... ;)
He did have a whole gallery apparently!
Aww, nice! That must have been especially poignant after they died.
Oh, and Mildred, re: the Horace/Voltaire book - I think I've seen a close up before as well, and since it isn't in any of the books I own (I did suspect Blanning actually, but nope), it must have been online somewhere. Strange.,
Blanning was the first place I checked! He has good images, and he mentions the ceiling. But no. Strange that it's eluding two detectives...
I think I read somewhere that Fritz did indeed have some of them painted? Or was that an urban legend?
Haven't come across it yet, so I vote for confusion with Dad and his Potsdam Giants.
This said, I could always be wrong, and at any rate, one of my recently translated Glasow summaries mentions Fritz gave him a special splendid red uniform to wear (which given that it's singled out can't have been the standard uniform for chamber hussars, not least because the color is wrong). If he looked especially good in it and he was, as I suspect, the 1755/56 Alcibiades, then maybe?
Yeah, Glasow might have been why I was curious about the date of the painting... ;) Because it depicts quite the good-looking guy! Who actually reminds me of Fredersdorf a bit, the older snuff box portrait.
Aww, nice! That must have been especially poignant after they died.
Just to avoid a misunderstanding here: the Yearbook doesn't say he had one, that was my own reaction to the discovery that there was a second dog painting, because I'd previously commented "I'm kind of surprised we don't have a whole gallery of his favourites." when I found the Biche one. So I was basically talking to myself, but two paintings is all I know of. (For now!)
Aw, that's a really cool picture! I like it, imaginative or not :) (But glad you told me that so I wouldn't go around thinking that was exactly what everything looked like! clearly every painter needs random violinists in the background
now I'm imagining Heinrich hanging out playing violin just to annoy Fritz
LOL. Maybe Heinrich did. I do think the very successful Renaissance painters in their studiolos had some music, and also baroque superstars like Rubens might have, but don't hold me to it, I'm talking out of very distant memory here.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 12:18 am (UTC)This family might be dysfunctional!
Charlotte (in the letter announcing Anna Amalia's birth): Had another waste of nature product (this was her second daughter), am willing to drown her if my dear Papa promises to drown my sisters Ulrike and Amalie at the same time.
This family might be dysfunctional!
So let's home he vented every now and then in circumstances where no future memoirist was present.
Let's hope! I fear at that some point, maybe post Seven Years' War, he stopped being able to vent due to everyone having died off.
(Or else it all went into his subconcious, producing dreams like the one from the 7 Years War where he's brought to Magdeburg and accused of not loving his father enough.)
Definitely not mutually exclusive. :/ Let's hope he at least got some venting in between 1740 and 1756.
and Pesne painting that ceiling
Speaking of Pesne painting ceilings, I was googling it not long ago (I was looking for a visual of the ceiling that has a book with Voltaire's and Horace's names on facing pages--do any of you know where I can find a picture? I *know* I've seen it, I have a very clear mental image, but couldn't turn it up, and I didn't see it in Selena's picspams--maybe it wasn't Rheinsberg? It's driving me crazy)--anyway, I turned up this Menzel painting of Pesne painting:
It's entitled "Crown Prince Frederick Pays a Visit to the Painter Pesne on his Scaffold at Rheinsberg". (
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 06:31 am (UTC)(Is the violinist supposed to be Benda?
the ceiling that has a book with Voltaire's and Horace's names on facing pages--do any of you know where I can find a picture?
I see two likely possibilities: it's either in Fritz' study room at Rheinsberg, which currently isn't open to the public (because it's too small; you're just allowed to take a quick glimpse across the barrier), or it's in the Sanssouci library room (which you're not allowed to enter even under no covid conditions), or in Fritz' suite in the New Palace which also is currently sealed off to the public. In any event, I did not see it and thus have to guess.
Let's hope he at least got some venting in between 1740 and 1756.
Let's hope. I choose to believe he vented to Fredersdorf, whom he knew would not tell a soul. After 1756, you're right that the people he trusted and who had known FW were gone. (I mean, Pöllnitz might have been the Hohenzollern go to guy for anecdotes, but sure as hell not the guy to rant about Dad at.) However, maybe he allowed himself to express some mixed feelings to later friends like George Keith or Luccesini? (I mean, if he told Lucchesini he loved someone "like Scorates did Alcibioades" shortly before the 7 Years War, he could have told him "a part of me is still angry at Dad". ) In any event, let's also recall the remarkable fact that Fritz made the emotionally healthy and eminently sensible decision to not join the sibling trip to Wusterhausen!
(I think that place must have been opened exactly two times once FW was dead - for the family trip and later in 1799 when Heinrich decded to spend some time there
blend out the last twelve years. Unless Fritz rented it to hunting-minded aristos during his reign, which is also possible.Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 12:42 pm (UTC)That's what I was wondering!
I see two likely possibilities: it's either in Fritz' study room at Rheinsberg
That's what my memory told me, and Blanning confirms:
From his little library in the southern round tower Frederick could look out at lake and gardens on three sides without seeing another building. Immediately adjacent was his main library, followed by a study and a suite of eight further rooms occupying most of the south wing. On the ceiling of the tower room a painting entitled Tranquillity in the Study by the court painter Antoine Pesne depicted Minerva surrounded by personifications of the sciences, arts and literature, one of whom points to an open book in which are written the names of Frederick’s two favorite authors: Horace and Voltaire.
I know I've seen a picture of it! Holmes, I mean
I choose to believe he vented to Fredersdorf, whom he knew would not tell a soul.
I choose to agree!
However, maybe he allowed himself to express some mixed feelings to later friends like George Keith or Luccesini? (I mean, if he told Lucchesini he loved someone "like Scorates did Alcibioades" shortly before the 7 Years War, he could have told him "a part of me is still angry at Dad". )
I was hoping for George Keith, yeah. But if Catt is not totally fictionalizing this part and if he's representative (both doubtful!), what Fritz said was along the lines of, "Wow, growing up under Dad sucked, but also, great man, not as bad as it sounds, don't want you to think ill of the late King!" Which I almost believe just because that is soooo typical of abuse victims. And the diary definitely backs up the dreams of longing for FW's approval.
So...let's hope he got some informal therapy via in-person discussions with Fredersdorf and hopefully Wilhelmine.
I think that place must have been opened exactly two times once FW was dead
My vague, vague memories are telling me Fritz actually paid a visit to a family member for lunch early in his reign, but...ah, yes, MacDonogh this time. 1745, just after the treaty ending the Second Silesian War is concluded:
Frederick returned to his capital on 28 December. He stopped for lunch at the hated house of Wusterhausen, which he had given to William...Prince Henry went to join his brothers at Wusterhausen, and all three drove into town in an open phaeton.
Source, Bielfeld.
Checking Bielfeld, I don't actually see Wusterhausen mentioned by name. I see the open phaeton, and I see Henry going to meet Fritz somewhere south of Berlin for lunch. Which could be Wusterhausen but isn't necessarily. But Rödenbeck agrees: Der König kommt in Wusterhausen an, speist daselbst Mittags bei dem Prinzen von Preußen, und reis't nach Berlin ab.
Fritz: always surprising us, whether it's going to Wusterhausen, or electing not to go to Wusterhausen for the reunion!
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 01:08 pm (UTC)That's what I was wondering!
Practice your German, here's a description of the painting:
Anfang der sechziger Jahre bestellte der Berliner Chemiefabrikant Kahlbaum bei Menzel, in bemerkenswerter Mischung, vier Motive aus der Kronprinzenzeit Friedrichs II. und fünf Motive aus der Gegenwart, alles Gouachen. Die einzelnen Gegenstände waren zweifellos Menzels eigene Wahl. Während einer Kur in Rheinsberg 1860 hatte er das Schloß studieren können, das Kronprinz Friedrich für seine musische Hofhaltung hatte umbauen lassen. Dabei erhielt die Decke des Ballsaales ein Deckenbild von Antoine Pesne: »Apollo vertreibt die Finsternis« (1740) – eine Allegorie, die man in der Umgebung des Kronprinzen auf den baldigen Thronwechsel bezog.
Mit großem Aufwand an bewegten Figuren, erzählerischen wie malerischen Pointen, Querblicken, Beleuchtungs- und perspektivischen Effekten schildert die kleine Komposition eine Episode während der Entstehung dieses Freskos. Wiewohl an sich belanglos, schlägt sie doch das im 19. Jahrhundert weitverbreitete Rahmenthema ›König und Künstler‹ an und berührt damit die Würde der Kunst. Man befindet sich, vom Boden abgelöst, ›bodenlos‹, in der Höhe des Malgerüstes und nimmt dennoch das Meiste aus der Untersicht wahr. Große, überlaufende Farbtöpfe stehen kipplig umher. Weil alle Künste zusammengehören, füllt der Hofmusiker Franz Benda den Raum verträumt mit seinem Bratschenspiel. Während ein Gehilfe die Palette reinigt, scherzt, eine Gerüststufe höher und fast schon mit dem Himmel des Freskos verschmelzend, Friedrichs Hofmaler Antoine Pesne mit seinem Modell. Neugierig hinaufblickend nähert sich Friedrich, dessen Erscheinen ein kräftiger Sonnenstrahl hervorhebt. Ihn begleitet der Baumeister des Schlosses, Georg Wenzeslaus von Knobelsdorff.
Der Bildraum ist aufs reichste durch die Gerüstkonstruktionen perspektivisch verbaut, alle Figuren sind Abgründen nahe, am augenfälligsten der einsame Musiker, der einem Somnambulen gleicht. Die vornübergefallene Gliederpuppe scheint nicht nur auf den Sieg der Natur über akademische Künstlichkeit anzuspielen, sondern die Perspektive als solche zu parodieren. Die Mittelachse ist mit einer schweren pyramidalen Kombination aus Figur und Gegenständen besetzt. Darunter ist ein prächtig gedrechselter barocker Stuhl – unerwartet auf einem Malgerüst. Nur die wenigen Besucher von Menzels Atelier wußten damals: Es ist Menzels eigener Stuhl! Indem er ihn, was durchaus nicht naheliegt, dem Künstler des 18. Jahrhunderts zuordnet, identifiziert er sich mit ihm und wird selbst ›der Maler Friedrichs des Großen‹. Oder anders: Der Stuhl ist noch leer, es fehlt nur noch sein Besitzer, um das Bild eines Glücksmoments der Kunst zu vervollständigen. Dies zu legitimieren, mobilisiert Menzel allen Zauber und alle Subtilität seiner Malerei.
Bielfeld: wasn't that also the occasion where all the brothers take off to visit dying Duhan? Also, since I recently checked Ziebura, this bit:
He stopped for lunch at the hated house of Wusterhausen, which he had given to William
Is a bit deceptively phrased. Because as Ziebura reminded me, FW had been very specific about Wusterhausen:
- Fritz becomes King, it goes to AW
- AW or AW's descendants become King, it goes to Heinrich
- Heinrich dies without issue, it goes to Ferdinand
- only if Ferdinand also dies without male heirs, it goes back to the crown
Meaning, Fritz wasn't "giving" as much as fulfilling FW's will. Otoh he did give AW Oranienburg, and that rather than Wusterhausen became AW's out-of-Berlin residence of choice, indicating that FW's favourite or not, they evidently didn't share a taste in palaces.
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 01:19 pm (UTC)And that is one lovely Menzel painting! Hadn't seen that before.
Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-24 01:24 pm (UTC)I know I've seen an up-close and readable version of the Horace and Voltaire names, but alas. If anyone runs across it, link me!
I found the Menzel painting totally by accident and had to share it!
Speaking of Paintings...
Date: 2021-03-25 02:24 pm (UTC)Speaking of Fritz having his favourites painted, in the same issue, there are these two dog paintings. The one on the right we've encountered before - "Solange wir zu zweit sind" claims it's Biche - but the one on the left was all new to me. He did have a whole gallery apparently!
Oh, and Mildred, re: the Horace/Voltaire book - I think I've seen a close up before as well, and since it isn't in any of the books I own (I did suspect Blanning actually, but nope), it must have been online somewhere. Strange.
Re: Speaking of Paintings...
Date: 2021-03-25 10:32 pm (UTC)I think I read somewhere that Fritz did indeed have some of them painted? Or was that an urban legend?
Not ringing a bell; we'll wait to see what the well-read
If so, the Potsdam Giants come to mind... ;)
He did have a whole gallery apparently!
Aww, nice! That must have been especially poignant after they died.
Oh, and Mildred, re: the Horace/Voltaire book - I think I've seen a close up before as well, and since it isn't in any of the books I own (I did suspect Blanning actually, but nope), it must have been online somewhere. Strange.,
Blanning was the first place I checked! He has good images, and he mentions the ceiling. But no. Strange that it's eluding two detectives...
Ah well, I'm sure it'll turn up one day.
Re: Speaking of Paintings...
Date: 2021-03-26 05:45 am (UTC)Haven't come across it yet, so I vote for confusion with Dad and his Potsdam Giants.
This said, I could always be wrong, and at any rate, one of my recently translated Glasow summaries mentions Fritz gave him a special splendid red uniform to wear (which given that it's singled out can't have been the standard uniform for chamber hussars, not least because the color is wrong). If he looked especially good in it and he was, as I suspect, the 1755/56 Alcibiades, then maybe?
Re: Speaking of Paintings...
Date: 2021-03-26 09:57 am (UTC)Re: Speaking of Paintings... and Dogs
Date: 2021-03-26 06:58 pm (UTC)Aww, nice! That must have been especially poignant after they died.
Just to avoid a misunderstanding here: the Yearbook doesn't say he had one, that was my own reaction to the discovery that there was a second dog painting, because I'd previously commented "I'm kind of surprised we don't have a whole gallery of his favourites." when I found the Biche one. So I was basically talking to myself, but two paintings is all I know of. (For now!)
Re: Speaking of Paintings... and Dogs
Date: 2021-03-26 07:01 pm (UTC)Re: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-26 05:25 am (UTC)clearly every painter needs random violinists in the backgroundnow I'm imagining Heinrich hanging out playing violin just to annoy FritzRe: More on Hohenzollern family life
Date: 2021-03-26 07:50 am (UTC)Maybe Heinrich did. I do think the very successful Renaissance painters in their studiolos had some music, and also baroque superstars like Rubens might have, but don't hold me to it, I'm talking out of very distant memory here.