Okay, so previous thread on the Keiths and here's what I found for the gap:
[1775-1776: Geheime Staatskanzlei + Royal Envoy at foreign courts: Peter Carl v. Keith, Legations-Rath, Königlicher Kammerherr and Envoyé Extraordinaire at the Turin Court, is absent [therefore no adress]]
1777/78: same as 1776
1779-83: listed in the Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse" in the Geheime Staatskanzlei section: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse im Dammschen Hause"
1784-87: Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, "s. Geheime Staatskanzlei" Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, "Taubenstraße im Friedelschen Hause" + 1787: Widow Keith mentioned for the first time
1788: the court mention finally changes from "Peter Carl" to "Ernst Reinhard Carl"
[1788-1791: Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. K., Legationsrath, lives at Taubenstr. im Friedelschen Hause and also: Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace]
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
--
ETA: More findings:
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well and there it specifies "in Cölln am Wasser", which is a designation that can be found at the south end of the "island" with the Palace on it (i.e. at the top in the 1748 plan). (And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name. But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.)
I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof
Yeah, seems likely. If you look at the 1748 plan, there's a small street that runs parallel to Brüderstrasse (and turns into "Cölln am Wasser" at the end!) and there are definitely houses there, so that's a possibility I guess.
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748. The Kalender has its own section for "Jägerey", which has the Hunting Office itself "auf dem Jägerhofe Obere Wallstrasse", a couple of lower officials all living "Königlicher Jägerhof in der Kleinen Jägerstrasse", one guy living "auf einem Flügel [wing] am Jägerhofe", and the Oberjägermeister usually living "auf dem Großen Jägerhofe in der Großen Jägerstrasse", i.e. where the Keith brothers live in 1765.
Now, I found out (via the Hohenzollern Yearbook) that the Oberjägermeister Schlieben died in 1748 and that there was a reshuffling of responsibilities, most importantly, a separation of the hunting and the forestry division. (Raumer even mentions that both the hunting and the forestry office stayed at Jägerhof for a while even after part of the building, i.e. the Große Jägerstrasse side, was turned into a bank.) Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities? Just speculation. Schwerin, the third guy mentioned by Raumer together with Knobelsdorff and Peter in ~1742, did apparently live there at some point, but then again, he was Landesjägermeister. Schlieben's successor as Oberjägermeister only had the office from June 1749 to January 1750 and neither did he get to do anything nor did he live at the Jägerhof is seems, but the guy after him, Schmettau, did. He was in office until 1753 and after that it was Baron Grapendorf, for decades, who never lived at the Jägerhof but had his own house elsewhere, so even if there was only one apartment at the Große Jägerstrasse side, it might have been free for Ariane and the kids to move into.
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard "Call me whatever" Keith. :P
I was starting to question myself as well, except that I've seen two different reliable sources (Prussian archives and this volume refer to the Sardinian envoy 1774-1778 as Peter Carl von Keith or Carl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, and given that Carl Ernst's father's name was Peter Karl...
I guess he just went by different names!
It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned.
Btw, correcting my original post: they clearly didn't own it, but they had it as "lebenslängliche Wohnung." Is there a way to interpret that, e.g. "property", by which they didn't own it but also didn't live there in 1756?
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well
I checked 1729 (yes) and 1730 (not listed--as expected, since he's now a private citizen), but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions. This is awesome! :D
Also: almost certainly not the Count Field Marshal Flemming of Saxony! (That had confused me, and I was almost certain it was a different Flemming, one of many, but then he had the right titles...but! Researching governors of Berlin has led me to find a different Field Marshal Count Flemming, and he was governor of Berlin until 1706, so likely him. Also, Wikipedia tells me that Saxon minister Field Marshal Count Flemming, boss of Suhm, is the nephew of Berlin governor Field Marshal Count Flemming, in whose house Suhm is probably living. Apparently, nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice.)
And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name.
I did notice!
But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.
Evidently!
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748.
I know that in subsequent decades/centuries they expanded it until they couldn't expand it, and they had to move it, but I didn't know how big it was when Peter was living there. Good to know! Maybe he had an apartment (or office) there and also in the Knyphausen house.
Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities?
I had always thought that, it was my first guess ~a year ago, when we first located the Jägerhof. And now that we know that he was involved from at least 1742, it seems likely!
Sidenote here: Flemming the mighty Saxon minister was, like Manteuffel, actually from Pomerania (birthplace of honest honest folk who never lie), so it's not surprising if his nephew or uncle was in Prussian service, it's Flemming the minister who is the one leaving Prussia for Saxony. It would also makes sense if he stored his Berlin envoys with a relation.
Btw, Manteuffel being from Pomerania means, of course, that his family estate is in Pomerania, which means that when he realises which way the wind is blowing and moves his papers from Dresden to his estate in 1730 so when he hands in his resignation papers, Hoym won't find them at his office anymore, he actually has brought them across the border and into Prussian territory, so Hoym can't send a search party after him, either. And it's why FW can have a stopover at Kummerfrey in 1731 without making a state visit to Saxony in that year; he's traveling through Pomerania on one of his inspection tours.
Argh, after I went to bed I realized I had typed "nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice" instead of "uncle guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg service." But apparently it's more complicated than that: as you point out, he started in Brandenburg, switched to imperial service, switched to Brunswick service, switched to Saxon service, and then returned to Brandenburg service, which was when he got the final promotions, to governor of Berlin and field marshal, and why I had homed in on that particular stage of his service-switching.
And then, yes, Saxon minister Flemming had switched from Brandenburg service to Saxon.
Oh, hey, I hadn't seen this one before! Basically checks out when compared with Kalender data, nice. But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
"lebenslängliche Wohnung."
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live. (No idea if that means that they could have rented to someone else as well if they didn't live there themselves, but given that it wasn't their property, I rather doubt it?)
but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions.
To clarify here: "Cölln" is the name for the pre-Berlin town on the Spree Island and the name for the historical city district in the same place, so it refers to the whole island. So I guess that "am Wasser" means the entire street along the waterside, which is where both Suhm and Peter lived. Since that's a looong street, I suspect Peter's address got the "behind Brüderstrasse" for clarification, but I'm not so sure that Suhm actually lived at the southern tip, because "Cölln am Wasser" should mean the whole street around the southern part of the island and maybe at the very end is just where Schmettau* decided to write the street name. So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed. (I hope this makes sense.) But speaking of historical districts, "Friedrichswerder" is the one with the Jägerhof in it, and "Dorotheenstadt" the one with the long Unter den Linden alley. See here for an overview. (Also, pre-1725, Suhm actually lived in Spandauer Strasse, which was located in the historical Berlin district that gave the whole city its name, to the east (number I).)
*plan-writer Schmettau btw = one of Peter's three curator collegues at the Academy
Yeah, it's been my main source on the son for a while. Apparently, the only thing the author knows about Peter's death is that it was before 1763, though!
But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
Apparently!
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live.
That does make sense. And I guess if you have a place you own and can sell/rent for ready cash, and a place you can live without paying, that makes financial sense when your breadwinner dies unexpectedly.
So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed.
Thank you for clarifying Berlin historical geography! In that case, I guess what I pinpointed was the words "Cölln am Wasser" on the map, lol.
Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace
It occurred to me that I'm an idiot and Ariane was great governess at Luise's court of course. Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death. *headdesk* Kind of makes me wonder how she got the job.
Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death.
Yes and no. One generation earlier: far as I recall, Lehndorff refers to SD as Queen more often than "Queen Mother" during her son's reign, and when he wants to set SD and EC apart, he calls EC "The reigning Queen" or "The young Queen", and SD "The old Queen". So it might have been handled similarly in FW2's era, with Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt being "the reigning Queen" and EC "the old Queen" (as she couldn't be "the Queen Mother" anyway).
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-25 05:11 pm (UTC)[1775-1776: Geheime Staatskanzlei + Royal Envoy at foreign courts: Peter Carl v. Keith, Legations-Rath, Königlicher Kammerherr and Envoyé Extraordinaire at the Turin Court, is absent [therefore no adress]]
1777/78: same as 1776
1779-83: listed in the Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse"
in the Geheime Staatskanzlei section: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, lives "in der Breiten Strasse im Dammschen Hause"
1784-87: Court section: Peter Carl v. Keith, "s. Geheime Staatskanzlei"
Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. Keith, "Taubenstraße im Friedelschen Hause"
+ 1787: Widow Keith mentioned for the first time
1788: the court mention finally changes from "Peter Carl" to "Ernst Reinhard Carl"
[1788-1791: Geheime Staatskanzlei: Ernst Reinhard Carl v. K., Legationsrath, lives at Taubenstr. im Friedelschen Hause
and also: Widow v. Keith, born Baroness v. Kniphausen, great governess of the Queen [still EC], lives at the Palace]
In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
--
ETA: More findings:
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well and there it specifies "in Cölln am Wasser", which is a designation that can be found at the south end of the "island" with the Palace on it (i.e. at the top in the 1748 plan). (And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name. But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.)
I'm coming to the conclusion that the Keiths and Frau von Knyphausen moved to a new house in 1748 that wasn't the Jägerhof
Yeah, seems likely. If you look at the 1748 plan, there's a small street that runs parallel to Brüderstrasse (and turns into "Cölln am Wasser" at the end!) and there are definitely houses there, so that's a possibility I guess.
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748. The Kalender has its own section for "Jägerey", which has the Hunting Office itself "auf dem Jägerhofe Obere Wallstrasse", a couple of lower officials all living "Königlicher Jägerhof in der Kleinen Jägerstrasse", one guy living "auf einem Flügel [wing] am Jägerhofe", and the Oberjägermeister usually living "auf dem Großen Jägerhofe in der Großen Jägerstrasse", i.e. where the Keith brothers live in 1765.
Now, I found out (via the Hohenzollern Yearbook) that the Oberjägermeister Schlieben died in 1748 and that there was a reshuffling of responsibilities, most importantly, a separation of the hunting and the forestry division. (Raumer even mentions that both the hunting and the forestry office stayed at Jägerhof for a while even after part of the building, i.e. the Große Jägerstrasse side, was turned into a bank.) Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities? Just speculation. Schwerin, the third guy mentioned by Raumer together with Knobelsdorff and Peter in ~1742, did apparently live there at some point, but then again, he was Landesjägermeister.
Schlieben's successor as Oberjägermeister only had the office from June 1749 to January 1750 and neither did he get to do anything nor did he live at the Jägerhof is seems, but the guy after him, Schmettau, did. He was in office until 1753 and after that it was Baron Grapendorf, for decades, who never lived at the Jägerhof but had his own house elsewhere, so even if there was only one apartment at the Große Jägerstrasse side, it might have been free for Ariane and the kids to move into.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 12:06 am (UTC)In conclusion: people must have pretty confused with Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard's name! But it's good to have confirmation that it's indeed the same guy, I was still having some tiny doubts. :P
Peter Carl Ernst Reinhard "Call me whatever" Keith. :P
I was starting to question myself as well, except that I've seen two different reliable sources (Prussian archives and this volume refer to the Sardinian envoy 1774-1778 as Peter Carl von Keith or Carl Ernst Reinhard von Keith, and given that Carl Ernst's father's name was Peter Karl...
I guess he just went by different names!
It is possible that Ariane only moved in once Peter died, for financial reasons, and before that it was a property that they owned.
Btw, correcting my original post: they clearly didn't own it, but they had it as "lebenslängliche Wohnung." Is there a way to interpret that, e.g. "property", by which they didn't own it but also didn't live there in 1756?
Suhm was living in the "Field Marschall Count von Flemming Hause" in 1725
In 1728 as well
I checked 1729 (yes) and 1730 (not listed--as expected, since he's now a private citizen), but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions. This is awesome! :D
Also: almost certainly not the Count Field Marshal Flemming of Saxony! (That had confused me, and I was almost certain it was a different Flemming, one of many, but then he had the right titles...but! Researching governors of Berlin has led me to find a different Field Marshal Count Flemming, and he was governor of Berlin until 1706, so likely him. Also, Wikipedia tells me that Saxon minister Field Marshal Count Flemming, boss of Suhm, is the nephew of Berlin governor Field Marshal Count Flemming, in whose house Suhm is probably living. Apparently, nephew guy left Saxony and entered Brandenburg survice.)
And I see it's "du Bourgué" that time, hee. They sure had some problems with that name.
I did notice!
But either way, the Kalender is a good resource if you want to know who was envoy in any given year, both to and from Prussia.
Evidently!
About the Jägerhof, though - it's a huge building, basically spanning the entire block in 1748.
I know that in subsequent decades/centuries they expanded it until they couldn't expand it, and they had to move it, but I didn't know how big it was when Peter was living there. Good to know! Maybe he had an apartment (or office) there and also in the Knyphausen house.
Which makes me wonder if Peter got the Jägerhof as a possible residence precisely because he had Tiergarten, i.e. forestry-related, responsibilities?
I had always thought that, it was my first guess ~a year ago, when we first located the Jägerhof. And now that we know that he was involved from at least 1742, it seems likely!
Flemming
Date: 2021-03-26 05:30 am (UTC)Btw, Manteuffel being from Pomerania means, of course, that his family estate is in Pomerania, which means that when he realises which way the wind is blowing and moves his papers from Dresden to his estate in 1730 so when he hands in his resignation papers, Hoym won't find them at his office anymore, he actually has brought them across the border and into Prussian territory, so Hoym can't send a search party after him, either. And it's why FW can have a stopover at Kummerfrey in 1731 without making a state visit to Saxony in that year; he's traveling through Pomerania on one of his inspection tours.
Re: Flemming
Date: 2021-03-26 01:18 pm (UTC)And then, yes, Saxon minister Flemming had switched from Brandenburg service to Saxon.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 10:24 am (UTC)Oh, hey, I hadn't seen this one before! Basically checks out when compared with Kalender data, nice. But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
"lebenslängliche Wohnung."
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live. (No idea if that means that they could have rented to someone else as well if they didn't live there themselves, but given that it wasn't their property, I rather doubt it?)
but hadn't caught the "in Cölln am Wasser" detail, thank you! Have now pinpointed it on the map thanks to your instructions.
To clarify here: "Cölln" is the name for the pre-Berlin town on the Spree Island and the name for the historical city district in the same place, so it refers to the whole island. So I guess that "am Wasser" means the entire street along the waterside, which is where both Suhm and Peter lived. Since that's a looong street, I suspect Peter's address got the "behind Brüderstrasse" for clarification, but I'm not so sure that Suhm actually lived at the southern tip, because "Cölln am Wasser" should mean the whole street around the southern part of the island and maybe at the very end is just where Schmettau* decided to write the street name. So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed. (I hope this makes sense.)
But speaking of historical districts, "Friedrichswerder" is the one with the Jägerhof in it, and "Dorotheenstadt" the one with the long Unter den Linden alley. See here for an overview. (Also, pre-1725, Suhm actually lived in Spandauer Strasse, which was located in the historical Berlin district that gave the whole city its name, to the east (number I).)
*plan-writer Schmettau btw = one of Peter's three curator collegues at the Academy
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-03-26 05:23 pm (UTC)Yeah, it's been my main source on the son for a while. Apparently, the only thing the author knows about Peter's death is that it was before 1763, though!
But what the heck, he worked without pay for years? And also, he got to meet Fritz in 1772, I didn't know/remember that either.
Apparently!
I'd say it's simply "Wohnrecht", i.e. the right to live there if and whenever they want for as long as they live.
That does make sense. And I guess if you have a place you own and can sell/rent for ready cash, and a place you can live without paying, that makes financial sense when your breadwinner dies unexpectedly.
So Suhm's residence is narrowed down somewhat to "on the waterside on the southern part of the Spree island", but not exactly pinpointed.
Thank you for clarifying Berlin historical geography! In that case, I guess what I pinpointed was the words "Cölln am Wasser" on the map, lol.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-01 05:24 pm (UTC)It occurred to me that I'm an idiot and Ariane was great governess at Luise's court of course. Just because EC is still alive, doesn't mean she's still the Queen after Fritz' death. *headdesk* Kind of makes me wonder how she got the job.
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-02 10:21 am (UTC)Yes and no. One generation earlier: far as I recall, Lehndorff refers to SD as Queen more often than "Queen Mother" during her son's reign, and when he wants to set SD and EC apart, he calls EC "The reigning Queen" or "The young Queen", and SD "The old Queen". So it might have been handled similarly in FW2's era, with Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt being "the reigning Queen" and EC "the old Queen" (as she couldn't be "the Queen Mother" anyway).
Re: Jägerhof
Date: 2021-04-02 10:22 am (UTC)