cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

Page 2 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

From:

selenak

1730s diplomacy: Okay, onto the good stuff. Saxony, like Prussia, had claims on Jülich and Berg. This did not make FW a happy camper, and won't make Fritz one, either, and despite FW and August the Strong being drinking buddies, there was mutual distrust through the decade, only strengthened when France tried to make Stanislas Lescynski King of Poland (again) while of course the Saxons tried to ensure future A3 would become future A3 once August the Strong inevitably kicked the bucket. At one point, there was a Prussian offer to lend Saxony a million Taler and support the election of August(us) as Russia and Austria had promised IF Saxony would drop any claims on Jülich and Berg and support Prussia's claims instead.

Brühl: No can do. Luckily, we have an in with the Czarina right now and thus don't need to accomodate the Prussians. Still we ought to mollify FW somewhat. Any ideas, Manteuffel?

Manteuffel: Send Tall Guys.

Brühl: Sends two Tall Guys along with the "no dropped claims on Jülich & Berg" letter.

AvB: FW took them, but was still seething.

Openly, Berlin sided with the protegé of France (Stanislaus Lescinsky, father-in-law of Louis XV) in Danzig, and Friedrich Wilhelm openly toasted Stanislaus at his table round. But just as hostile, only even more openly hurtful, was the attitude of Crown Prince Friedrich. Often he bet with the Saxon envoy Manteuffel that the Elector would not remain King of Poland. In a converastion with Manteuffel, he prophecied the defeat of August, as French and Swedish troops as support counting up to 10 - 21 000 men would be on their way in order to push the election of Stanislaus through by force, who because of Prussia's neutrality would be able to land on Prussian soil. Manteuffell, a practised diplomat, replied that such a solution would be more than welcome to Saxony and Russia, since this way the arena of war would be shifted to much more suitable terrain and one would at last meet troops one could fight as enemies. At the first sign of a landing the united Saxon and Russian army would be able to march against the French, since because of Prussia's neutrality Prussia could not possibly object to letting the Saxons march through Prussian territory. Friedrich was struck by this very logical reply, and returned indiginant that Prussia was no playground for foreign armies. At last, he stated that as opposed to his original plan of war, the French and the Swedes should land in Stralsund which belonged to the Swedes. Manteuffel replied calmly that he assumed the Swedes were getting sick of owning Stralsund by now. But certainly there were more than enough potential admirers eager to talke Stralsund of their hands as they did Stettin and all of Pommerania.

(I.e. the Prussians,

cahn.) (Footnote for this conversation goes to the Dresden archive, I assume to a report from Manteuffel to Brühl.)

Suhm: AvB has a high opinion of Suhm as an envoy and tihinks it was a great touch on Brühl's part to choose him as envoy in Russia to promote what was partly an anti Prussian policy precisely because Suhm was known to be a friend of Fritz and thus paranoid and jealous Prussia would not believe this to be the case. Be that as it may, based on the reports Suhm was a pro and did his best for Saxony, as his job, and did not secretly forward information of the ongoing negotiatons to Fritz. Undoubtedly if he had lived and had come to Fritz in 1740, he'd have devoted himself just as much to Fritz' interests, but while he was envoy for Saxony, his dedication to Saxon interests could not be faulted. The need for a new Saxon envoy in St. Petersburg arose when Ostermann, the official PM, complained about Lynar's relationship with Anna Leopoldovna. (At this point, Anna Ivanova is still alive, Anna Leopoldovna's engagement to EC's brother Anton Ulrich has just been arranged.) Lynar got offered the ambassadorship to London instead which he rejected, miffed about his withdrawal, so Brühl kept him around for short term missions until his services were needed in St. Peterburg again (i.e. when Anna Leopoldovna became Regent). So Suhm got the job. Other than soothing feathers riled by the Anna Leopoldovna/Lynar affair, the most delicate task concerned Anna Ivanova's favourite Biron, who wanted to become Duke of Curland (which technically belonged to Poland, which meant that while the Dukes were elected by the Kurland magnates, in reality the elections weren't very free but went as the ruler of Poland wanted), and whom rumor suspected of intending to make himself Czar.

Suhm received detailed instructions which were worked out and personally signed by Brühl. (Footnote to the Dresden archive.) Suhm was supposed to contact Count Biron directly after his arrival at St. Petersburg and to ask for an audience witht the Czarina to be arranged at the later's pleasure. AT the audience, he was supposed to transmit the wishes of the Elector to the Czarina that the close relationsihps of his Court iwth the Russian one should become even more affectionate in the future and to demonstrate the strong concern with which the Saxon-Polish court was following events of the Russian-Turkish war. The Princess of Mecklenburg - i.e. Anna Leopoldovna - and Count Ostermann were also supposed to receive Suhm's greatest attention. Suhm was to tell the Russian cabinet at the earliest opportunity "how little France was serious to conclude the long term peace business, as they aim to push the end further and further through low pretenses" and how France was just waiting for Russia to fail in the Russia-Turkish war. Suhm was ato make nice with Biron, and as to Anna Leopoldovna, Suhm was not to meddle with the impeding Anna Leopoldovna/Anton Ulrich marriage, BUT if for reasons that had nothing to do with Suhm or Saxony the marriage failed to materialize, Suhm was to discreetly suggest future A3's oldest son as an alternate match. Also, none of this under any circumstances should be noticed by the Prussian envoy in Russia, Baron Marderfeld, or Prussia in general. Brühl is relying on Suhm's discretion.

AvB: One big reason why Brühl wanted to encourage a Russia/Turkey peace which would untie Russian resources was because he wanted Russia as backup against a Prussia that looked increasingly threatening.

Now, Brühl wanted more than nice words and vague promises from Biron in return for the later becoming Duke of Kurland, to wit, he wanted Biron's support for the change of Poland from an elective monarchy to an inheritable monarchy united for good with Saxony, and on November 3rd 1737, Suhm reported that Biron himself had brought the idea up. However, there was an additional task, because by now, Anton Ulrich of Braunschweig, EC's brother, had arrived at the Russian Court, and Biron's son Peter was promotiing himself as an alternate match for Anna Leopoldovna, since now that his father was a Duke, he was now her match in nobility. (Anna Leopoldovna being the daughter of the Duke of Mecklenburg.) Simultanously, the Prussians were also trying to woo Biron and were offering Ulrike (we're still in the 1730s, remember, so Ulrike isn't yet married) as a match for Biron's son. Biron rejected this idea by claiming his son was still too young to marry. Meanwile, Suhm suggested yet another match, Biron's son and the second oldest available Saxon Princess (daughter of future A3), which Bühl rejected.

AvB: But note that while he rejects Suhm's suggestion, he still thanks Suhm for making it and invites discussion as to what Suhm thinks Biron will or won't do re: Poland/Saxony union. Bühl isn't going "my way or the high way" , he wants opinions and initiative from his diplomatic staff, even critique, which Suhm delivers and for which Brühl thanks him. I don't have to tell you how unlike a certain someone this is, do I? Brühl: your dream boss.

(Footnote: Dresden Archive, Brühl to Suhm, Moritzburg, 9. Aug. 1738)

This is Suhm's description of Anna Ivanova's bedroom as given to Brühl in his envoy report (Prince Karl is Biron's youngest son): "Next to her bed, the small bed of Prince Karl stands, next to this a large couch on which the faihtful Citrine sleeps, a large and pretty girl, very white, who is the favourite. Moroever, the room is shared by approximately twenty women who sleep on bedrolls lying on the floor and of which some are always awake, stnading around the Empress' bed and telling her fairy tales to make her fall asleep." Suhm added that on this occasion, all the rumors about the latest events in town were reported, and if the women didn't know anything true to report, they were inventing stories. Of course, intrigues were made and slanders promoted this way. The custom to let women talk the whole night in the bedroom was supposedly widely spread in all of Russia, and it was a matter of fashion for a lady to lie in bed theentire day and to let herself be served with food and drink there while she was constantly told stories.

On September 15th, Suhm reports a very successful conversation with Biron to Brühl, but so delicate in nature that he does not want to put it in writing but wants Brühl to send his brother the Legationsrat (presumably Nicholas) to him so he can give the verbal report to his brother who in turn will give it to Brühl. Because the report was verbal, we don't know what it said, but because of the earlier context, AvB concludes that Biron must have made some firm promises regarding Russian support for Brühl's big Saxony/Poland 4eva! project.

Suhm's next report concerins the ongoing soap opera that is Anna Leopoldovna's love life. (Minus any mention of Julia Mengden in this biography. On February 22nd 1739, Suhm reports that Anna L. has said she'd rather die than marry Anton Ullrich.

Brühl: Seeing as we need Biron, do promote Peter Biron/Anna Leopoldovna.

Suhm: I've just heard Team Vienna and Emperor Charles are very unhappy at the idea of Peter Biron/Anna Leopoldvna - I mean, Anton Ulrich is the Empresses' nephew. However, since they don't want to piss off the mighty favourite, they've suggested marrying Peter Biron with yet another Brunswick girl who'll get 200 000 Taler dowry from Vienna.

Anna Leopoldovna: I'm not marrying the Braunschweig guy because he's not my mental equal. ("Nicht geistig ebenbürtig")

Anna Ivanova: Biron, Darling, is this your influence? I want that match.

Biron: I'm totally innocent!

Peter Biron: Anna, beloved playmate of my childhood, I'm absolutely delighted you rejected the dumb Braunschweig prince for bieng so dumb. Marry me instead!

Anna Leopoldovna: YOU? An icky upstart's son?!? *goes to Anna Ivanova* I've changed my mind. I'm marrying Anton Ulrich.

At least that's how Suhm reports the tale to Brühl. Since he's explicitly asked to make suggestions, he also after years in Russia adds a warning, in his report from December 18th 1739. He says that the war against the Turks showed Russia's growing military prowess, that they have a taste now for being a superpower, and he predicts that:

'The Russians will lust after Poland one day, and will invade it. Now this is not yet to be feared for a s long as the other courts of Europe exist, but in Russia, one has always to fear a revolution, for if the Russians withdraw within their gigantic Empire, no foreign power, however great, can pursue them into the the unending steppe.

Smart man, Suhm.

Suhm continues: The only salvation of Poland would be the changing of the constitution in the interest of the Saxon policy and the removal of the Liberum Veto. Only if the country becomes an inheritance of his House, the King on his part would have an interest in completing the country's defense by organizing a proper army and by building fortresses. The current liberty of Poland is a tragic liberty. Given the current constitution, the constitution cannot be changed in a legal way, and thus it has to happen in a different way.

Suhm furtherly thinks that England plans another war with France, and in this coming war, Saxony should team up with the Emperor (/MT's Dad). England would back up Austria/the HRE and Saxony, and would provide subsidies, which would pay for an army for Poland consisting for about 25 000 men which would not cost the Poles anything and which they would thus permit. Having thus equipped a small but disciplined and well trained army in Poland, one could get the Russian court to greenlight the declaration of the Polish Crown to be now tied to Saxony in perpetuum. Russia would keep Prussia in line, and as long as Prussia was kept in line by Russian might, one would not have to fear a division of Poland. Then the King could occupy the rest of the (Polish) country with his own regular regiments, which in turn would guarentee the Polish magnates accepting the changed constitution. Especially, if the King promised to any Polish farmers joining his army he'll free them from serfdom.

Brühl loves this plan. So does AvB, who is bitter that it wasn't to be, since before this genius plan can be accomplished, FW dies, Anna Ivanova dies, MT's Dad dies, Suhm dies, and then Fritz the Evil strikes.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Brühl: Any ideas, Manteuffel?

Manteuffel: Send Tall Guys.

ROFL. That's Saxon diplomacy for you!

Friedrich was struck by this very logical reply, and returned indiginant that Prussia was no playground for foreign armies.

This made me laugh extra considering I've seen one historian describe the Second Silesian War along the lines of "Saxony had decided that it was after all a state and not a highway..." (

cahn, meaning they weren't just going to stand by and watch Fritz march endlessly through on his way to invading other parts of the HRE.)

promote what was partly an anti Prussian policy precisely because Suhm was known to be a friend of Fritz and thus paranoid and jealous Prussia would not believe this to be the case. Be that as it may, based on the reports Suhm was a pro and did his best for Saxony, as his job, and did not secretly forward information of the ongoing negotiatons to Fritz.

Wow, I am so glad you read this book! This is a great characterization touch we didn't have: I *didn't* know Suhm's negotiations in Russia were partly anti-Prussian (it surprises me not, since Prussia and Saxony were enemies for reasons I have discussed at great length in my own Saxony foreign policy write-ups), because indeed, Suhm did not tell Fritz this.

Bühl isn't going "my way or the high way" , he wants opinions and initiative from his diplomatic staff, even critique, which Suhm delivers and for which Brühl thanks him. I don't have to tell you how unlike a certain someone this is, do I? Brühl: your dream boss.

Hee! Yeah, Fritz this is not.

Suhm reports a very successful conversation with Biron to Brühl, but so delicate in nature that he does not want to put it in writing but wants Brühl to send his brother the Legationsrat (presumably Nicholas) to him so he can give the verbal report to his brother who in turn will give it to Brühl.

Oh, interesting! I love the thought of these two working together like that. That's also an interesting characterization touch. For both of them, really. Given that, I'm glad they at least got to see each other between when Suhm left for St. Petersburg and when Nicolas arrived in Warsaw one day after he died.

Anna Leopoldovna: YOU? An icky upstart's son?!? *goes to Anna Ivanova* I've changed my mind. I'm marrying Anton Ulrich.

Hahaha. I enjoyed this whole soap opera development, which you presented in a very entertaining fashion.

no foreign power, however great, can pursue them into the the unending steppe.

Smart man, Suhm.

Indeed! And, I mean, he was old enough to remember Poltava, where Karl XII got his armies crushed pursuing the Russians into the unending steppe.

Suhm will also predict that Fritz will be willing to make war on princes he personally likes, which I can only take as an allusion to FS.

Suhm furtherly thinks that England plans another war with France

Note that the War of Jenkins' Ear with Spain had just begun, so it wasn't a huge leap from there to concluding that France would be sucked into it.

I love seeing this whole plan and Suhm's day job as an envoy and not just as an author of touching letters to Fritz. The compartmentalization must have been interesting!

Russia would keep Prussia in line

This is going to be Brühl's plan through the 1740s and 50s, so yeah, that's Saxon foreign policy for you. Very interesting that he proposes this plan and then gets permission to go join Fritz--we know A3 the Chill okayed it, I wonder what Brühl thought.

FW dies, Anna Ivanova dies, MT's Dad dies, Suhm dies

As a chronological reminder, the last 3 of these deaths happen within the space of 3 weeks, late October to early November.

From:

selenak

ROFL. That's Saxon diplomacy for you!

:) Not just Saxon diplomacy. I dare say that would have been the advice of any envoy who had come into contact with FW.

"Saxony had decided that it was after all a state and not a highway..."

ROTFLOL.

This is a great characterization touch we didn't have

IKR? It really adds another dimension to Suhm. As far as his envoy life was concerned, we only knew he didn't vibe with FW in which he was hardly unique, so it didn't say that much about his job skills. (As opposed to H-W managing to piss everyone off at every court except for his early time in Russia.) It also shows that Fritz' idea that Suhm was too delicate a nature to get along with Russians was somewhat mistaken - Suhm did just fine in his negotiations with Bad Boy Biron - , but presumably based on seeing Suhm as the opposite of FW and knowing Suhm hated the FW life style (despite having to become a member of the Society Against Sobriety).

Oh, interesting! I love the thought of these two working together like that. That's also an interesting characterization touch. For both of them, really. Given that, I'm glad they at least got to see each other between when Suhm left for St. Petersburg and when Nicolas arrived in Warsaw one day after he died.

Indeed, which we hadn't known before, either. BTW, did Nicolas stay in Prussia with Hedwig and the kids, or did he return to Saxony, do we know?

The compartmentalization must have been interesting!

Quite. But then he's living in a century where your enemy of yesterday can become your ally of tomorrow, and people like Eugene who change sides ONCE (if it can be called that, given he never had a job at court or in the army while still in France) and stay committed are the exception, not the rule, while people like Katte's granddad who as one of the F1 biographers pointed out fought for a couple of enemies in a row are more the rule. So Suhm hoping that in the long term, his future lay with Fritz but in the present working for Saxony which included pursuing anti Prussian policies isn't THAT unusual.

Suhm basically sketching out an overthrow of the Polish Constitution and a complete takeover by the Saxon monarchy also shows his own capacity for ruthless plans. (AvB: IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THE POLES! NO POLISH PARTITION!) If he indeed got Biron to greenlight this on Anna Ivanova's behalf and this was the verbal report entrusted to Nicholas, it would have been quite the coup Suhm would have managed for Brühl and Saxony, on a scale with Heinrich delivering the first Partition to Fritz. (Mind you, I think everyone was deluded when imaginging the Poles would have just gone along with this without massive resistance fighting, occupying troops be damned.)

Very interesting that he proposes this plan and then gets permission to go join Fritz--we know A3 the Chill okayed it, I wonder what Brühl thought.

"Excellent. He can take over Manteuffel's old spying network, and since Fritz actually wants him there, will be in a far better position to send me juicy insider reports."

(Err, not that Suhm would have done that, but maybe Brühl thought he might and thus okayed the move?)

Re: 1730s Saxon Diplomacy: Suhm

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2023-04-02 04:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

Indeed! And, I mean, he was old enough to remember Poltava, where Karl XII got his armies crushed pursuing the Russians into the unending steppe.

Oh right! The unending steppe: crushing armies for centuries!

From:

cahn

Manteuffel: Send Tall Guys.

...this always makes me laugh!

I don't have to tell you how unlike a certain someone this is, do I? Brühl: your dream boss.

Heeee! Point taken, AvB.

Anna Leopoldovna: I'm not marrying the Braunschweig guy because he's not my mental equal.

Wow. And then they... really get stuck together, huh. Ouch.

Biron: I'm totally innocent!

Peter Biron: Anna, beloved playmate of my childhood, I'm absolutely delighted you rejected the dumb Braunschweig prince for bieng so dumb. Marry me instead!

Anna Leopoldovna: YOU? An icky upstart's son?!? *goes to Anna Ivanova* I've changed my mind. I'm marrying Anton Ulrich.

LOLOLOLOL!

The Russians will lust after Poland one day, and will invade it. Now this is not yet to be feared for a s long as the other courts of Europe exist, but in Russia, one has always to fear a revolution, for if the Russians withdraw within their gigantic Empire, no foreign power, however great, can pursue them into the the unending steppe.

Smart man, Suhm.

Yeeeeah.

From:

selenak

But before AvB describes Silesia 1, he goes back in time to early 1730s to Manteuffel and Fritz. Now if you don't pay attention to a casual mention of the date, you'd think all the Manteuffel bribes happen simultanously to the Suhm negotiations for Saxon/Poland 4eva!/a Russia backed Saxon coup, as opposed to already having happened years earlier. Neither Voltaire nor Wolff nor La Chetardie get a mention, instead, as I said, if you don't pay attention to the one casual date dropping, you'd think Manteuffel does this because Brühl wants to ensure Fritz is in the dark about the goings on in Russia:

Manteuffel did not spare time or effort in order to inform himself about the situation at court in view of the coming change of power during the King's lethal illness.

(I.e. FW's 1734 sickness, but as this chapter comes AFTER the Suhm chapter, it's easy to think AvB is talking about FW's 1739/1740 really lethal illness.)

Through bribed Prussian officers he learned that Friedrich, the Crown Prince, was having relations with certain female circles of loose morals. Particlarly one lady in Ruppin seems to have been in Friedrich's favour at that time. Manteuffel then ordered one of his young friends - whom he equipped with the necessary finances - to start a relationship with this lady and let Friedrich's letters be opened and copied. This way, Manteuffel managed to find out that Friedrich planned on immediately after his accession to the throne supporting the Polish anti King Stanislaus Lescynski with a corps of his troops, which amounted to an open attack.
Yet another important information arrived at this time, which was confirmed by the Imperial Envoy Count Wratislaw: Crown Prince Friedrich had taken up his old secret relationship with the former Saxon minister Count Heinrich Karl Hoym and promised him an important role after his accession to the throne. Hoym thus was arrested on Brühl's orders at his estate on Dec. 18th 1735 and transferred to Königstein.
Hoym had been Saxon-Polish envoy in Paris in the years 1720 - 1729 and had been promoted to Cabinet Minister upo9n the death of Count Christoph Heinrich Watzdorf on September 3rd 1729. On March 23rd 1731, August the Strong had dismissed him in disgrace and banished to his estates. Now he got accused on 18 different matters, mainly because of disobedience towards the King, the illegal opening of letters, and corruption. Furtherly he got accused of having been informed of the desertion plans of Crown Prince Friedrich at the camp in Zeithain by a primary source, and having kept this information secret, and furtherly, that he betrayed the manufacturing secrets of Meissen porceillain to France.

....You don't say, AvB. Neither of the Manteuffel biographies I've read mentioned that he actually was able to make copies of Fritz' letters as the result of his bribing efforts, or that Fritz was in contact with Hoym which was uncovered as a result of this, or that Fritz had promised military support to Stanislas Lescynski. And nowhere did I read that Hoym knowing about the escape plans (via Katte) was held againt him in Saxony. I mean, this comes up in Katte's interrogation in 1730, so it's not exaclty hot news in 1734. Now I do know Hoym came up in a letter from Fritz to Manteuffel (where he asks why Hoym was arrested), but that's about the only Hoym mention this late in the game I know.

As I said, AvB is good with the footnotes, and here's where he sources these two sensational claims:

1) (Fritz planning to support Stanislaus Lescynski when becoming King): Dresden, Loc.456, Vol.23. Partly printed, partly paraphrased content in Beyrich, a.a.O, .S. 117 and footnote 2 same page.

2) (Fritz and Hoym, Hoym's fall): See about this Beyrich, a.a.O. S. 117 ff. and "Vie de Charles henry Comte de Hoym, Ambassadeur de Saxe-POlogne en France, et celèbre amateur de livres, 1694 - 1736, par le Baron Jeromes Pichon, publié par la Ste des Bibliophiles Francais, Paris 1880, Tome 1, Chap. III, page 71 - 141.

WELL.

Thoughts, Mildred? The one thing I find hardest to swallow is supporting Stanislas L. with troops. I mean, of course it's in Fritzian interests to prevent Poland becoming eternally united with Saxony, but he was so eager to make his name and win fame that I don't see him starting his rule by handing over soliders so someone else, as opposed to leading them into battle himself. Especially since Stanislaus Lesccynski had already been beaten once and I don't see young Fritz tying himself to a loser.
Anyway. AvB moves us forward in time again to 1740 and the series of deaths changing European policies. (BTW, in his version, Suhm doesn't go to Fritz for Fritz' sake, Suhm had to be replaced because once Anna Leopoldovna is Regent, obviously her lover Lynar is the guy with the greater sway and thus needs to be Saxon envoy again.) Now, because Saxony WON'T ally itself with MT in Silesia 1, Habsburg loyalist AvB has some explaining to do. Here it goes:

AvB: So, my guy Brühl could not know that MT would be the fierce woman fighting Fritz tooth and nails she'd turn out to be. For all he knew at the start, she was a total pushover. Especially since Fritz the liar was presenting her as such; he was telling everyone, especially the Saxons, that he was negotiating with the Duke of Lorraine and as good as had the Duke's and thus also MT's okay for getting a part of Silesia. Now if MT had handed over part of Silesia to Fritz as Fritz kept claiming she did until he couldn't keep up the lie anymore, she'd have already broken the Pragmatic Sanction, and thus Brühl/Saxony would no longer be tied to it.

Self: Come on. That's a very narrow time window.

AvB: Yeah, and when it turned out MT wanted to keep Silesia, and was not prepared to hand it over to Fritz, Brühl with the help of England and Russia, both of whom exerted pressure on MT, negotated for an Austria/Saxony treaty. Which he did masterfully, from a Saxon pov. On April 11th, negotions were finished. Saxony was promised to get 12 Million Taler from Austria to be paid within 18 years. If Austria won against Prussia, Saxony would get Prussian's property in the Lausitz and the Duchy Krossen. If the war went against Austria, Saxony would still get paid via getting the taxes from the Bohemian border areas, and would also get some border territory from the Lausitz so Saxony would have a direct land corridor connecting it to Poland. The current Saxon possessions were guarenteed to be respected, there was a trade treaty with conditions favourable to Saxony, and the Duke of Tuscany (FS) promised to make Saxony into a Kingdom. Furthermore, if MT and FS had no living son, a Saxon prince would inherit. All Saxony had to do in return for all of this was vote for the Duke of Lorraine as Emperor and in provide Saxon troops after "the other alies", especially Russia, had already engaged Prussia."

Self: Wow. Those are great conditions for Saxony, true, but are you telling me MT actually accepted this? This is as bad an extortion as what Fritz tried, almost.

AvB: Alas MT did not sign this treaty. She took a look at the conditions and said hell no, despite the English envoy telling her she could not afford not to sign and needed Saxony as her ally. I myself think she should have signed. An MT/Saxony/Poland/Russia/England alliance would have crushed Fritz and France in Silesia 1, and history would have developed so much better! But I guess MT was still inexperienced at this point. So anyway, Brühl had no choice but to ally with France instead. He even managed to marry off A3's daughter to Louis XV's son to seal the deal. This pissed Fritz off! Have a quote, reader:

Fritz to Marshal Belle Isle: I have abandoned my claims to Jülich and Berg, have carried the entire burden of this war for a year alone, have declared myself for the King of France from the start, and have supported his intentions at every opportunity to the best of my abilities, and you hand over a much larger piece of the ruins of the House of Austria to the King of Poland than to me, to him who showed you all kinds of hostility and all kinds of evil will...

(Footnote: Political Correspondence, I, 337)

AvB: And this, dear readers, was when Fritz knew Brühl was the mastermind he needed to destroy if he was to succeed in his megalomania!

Brühl and MT do make a treaty two years later, to much more MT-favourable conditions, though Saxony still gets Erfurt out of it. AvBy says that Fritz claimis in Histoire de Mon Temps that the Saxony/Austria treaty of 1743 was an offensive one, thus necesitating his invasion, when it was a defensive one, and Fritz, lying as per usual, presented a falsified version in said book. This was already pointed out by Arneth who presented the original treaty. Of course, Fritz also justified his start of Silesia 2 with invading Bohemia to support the Emperor as a loyal HRE Elector should (reminder,

cahn, the Emperor is Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach, supported by the French, whom MT kicked out of his dukedom of Bavaria and of course did not recognize as Emperor at this point).

AvB: Friedrich II forgot intentionally that he himself in Article 1 of the Breslau Peace Treaty, which he invoked right now, had pledged himself not to send any military aid to Emperor Karl VII.

Nothing new otherewise about Silesia 2, except that AvB can't understand why a smart energetic woman like MT kept handing over military assignments to her no good brother-in-law instead of kicking him out of the army the first time he lost a battle, since he is convinced Fritz owes his military glory to a great deal to Charles of Lorraine being bad at fighting.

Fallout between Fritz and Elizaveta, according to AvB:

In this moment (1745) Friedrich asked "in the slimiest expressions" for the Czarina to negotiate peace. But he soon encured her dislike through his own fault. In order to not encour the distrust of his Bourbon allies, he wanted the Czarina to provide a declaration that he hadnt been the one to ask for a peace negotiation. This undiplomatic tactlessness irritated the Czarina so much that she compoletely withdrew from any peace mediation.

Peace time: This is where we get Brühl, patron of the arts. Dresden and Saxony in general are the most beautiful, most exquisite, Florence at the Elbe and the cradle of German culture, and Fritz is a wannabe in his plumb imitations of Saxon beauty that are the three Sanssouci palaces. That's yet another reason why he destroyed so much in Saxony later: so he wouldn't be shown up anymore. But mostly because he hated Brühl so much. Oh, and as for corruption: the Prussians tried to bribe 500 porcellain workers to move to Prussia, and all 500 declined. Because they were loyal and Brühl paid them better. So there, and fyi, Prussian porcellain remained inferior even after the war when Fritz made the KP manufactury a state business. Oh, and Berlin was a provincial town while Dresden was a world residence; Versailles accepted Brühl as an equal partner at negotions, which they never saw Fritz at. And for the record: Prussia eventually took leadership of the German Empire by force of arms, but only after the entire rest of Germany created German culture throughout the centuries. In case you didn't notice yet, readers: Prussia sucks! Hohenzollerns are awful! Nothing good ever came from them!

Unsurprisingly, AvB gives Brühl complete cedit for the Diplomatic Revolution. (Kaunitz who?) He quotes a letter from Brühl to Maurice de Saxe (French Marshal, illegitimate son of August the Strong) from 8th Nov. 1746, i.e. shortly after the end of Silesia 2, where Brühl predicts the following:

Regarding the King of Prussia: he doesn't have to fear anything as long as he keeps the peace. But France nearly needs to have its eyes opened about this man. Smart as he is, he flatters France at every opportunity, but the memory of how he twice made a separate peace under English direction, without giving a fig for his ally's interests, should justify the concern that the King of Prussia could easily play anotiher trick on them. Such a trick would, depending on France's exhaustion, demand many more bloody sacrifices as all the previous ones, if Friedrich allies with the Maritime Powers. (I.e. England and Holland.) This would embarass France while the King of Prussia would get the best guarantee for Silesia and possibly other advantages this way.

Like I said, when the Seven Years War comes, threre's nothing I haven't read elsewhere already about the fate of Saxony, except for AvB's denial that the Saxony/Austria treaty in this case was an offensive one; here, too, he said Prussian propaganda presented the world with a forgery in order to justify Fritz:

Count Herzberg had to falsify the Saxon files in his infamous "Memoire rasionné" in order to prove to the world that Friedirch II had executed all the horrors he did unleash in Saxony as a matter of just self defense. Count Herzberg himself later disclaimed this "Memoire raisonné", but the King of Prussia used this notorious falsified document as a basis for his "HIstory of the Seven Years War". More than a century this document served as a historical source until through Count Vitzhum the forgery was uncovered.

Given that Fritz had all of Brühl's possessions in Saxony destroyed, you might wonder what Brühl lived from in exile during the war:

Friedrich II did everything he possibly could to destroy Brühl as a minister and a human being, and he would have succeeded in destroying the fruit of labour of an entire life (...) if August III. had not given his minister and favourite the income of the Zipser Starostei. But despite htis high minded generosity of the King, Brühl had to fight with financial difficulties. HIs grown up sons wewre used to a carefree life and were using up huge sums. (.l..) The state of Brühl's mind after all that had happened is barely imaginable. The catastrophe had occured. HIs life's work was destroyed, his fortune ruined, his collection of art broken up. HIs lord, whom he had wanted to make into the most powerful of German princes, had been robbed of his home country and was now a King without power in Poland. Brühl had done all he reasonably could have done to avert this catastrophe happening. If he can be accused of one fault, than it is that the minister lived in the delusion that Friedrich II was subjected to the same moral laws as athe rest of European civilisation. Europe had judged Friedrich in 1756, and the HRE had banned him. Europe, the court to which Brühl had applied, came to his aid. But death tore a hole into the wall of the defenders. The Czarina Elizabeth died. And Friedrich's crime remained unpunished.

AvB: And then my woobie's beloved wife dies as well. And then his King dies. And then he dies. And Fritz, the bastard, is allowed to slander his reputation for centuries to come. But NO MORE! I submit my defense to you, dear readers. JUSTICE FOR BRÜHL.

Edited Date: 2023-04-01 03:38 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2023-04-05 10:15 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

in view of the coming change of power during the King's lethal illness.

(I.e. FW's 1734 sickness, but as this chapter comes AFTER the Suhm chapter, it's easy to think AvB is talking about FW's 1739/1740 really lethal illness.)

...yeeeah, that's not what I call a lethal illness!

I myself think she should have signed.

Heh, okay then, AvB!

Friedrich asked "in the slimiest expressions" for the Czarina to negotiate peace.

I giggled at this.

But he soon encured her dislike through his own fault. In order to not encour the distrust of his Bourbon allies, he wanted the Czarina to provide a declaration that he hadnt been the one to ask for a peace negotiation. This undiplomatic tactlessness irritated the Czarina so much that she compoletely withdrew from any peace mediation.

Does this really have anything to do with why Elizaveta didn't like him?

In case you didn't notice yet, readers: Prussia sucks! Hohenzollerns are awful! Nothing good ever came from them!

Heeee! I had gotten a bit of that impression, yes.

AvB: And then my woobie's beloved wife dies as well. And then his King dies. And then he dies. And Fritz, the bastard, is allowed to slander his reputation for centuries to come. But NO MORE! I submit my defense to you, dear readers. JUSTICE FOR BRÜHL.

Aw. Sorry, buddy.

From:

selenak

I checked Horowski following a vague memory, and indeed, Augustus Hervey's younger brother Frederick, the later globetrotting Earl-Bishop (Earl of Bristol, Bishop of Derry), has a starring role in the last bit of the book as the 18th century draws to a close and in the first years of the 19th. (And I guessed correctly when he fell in love with Wilhelmine Encke, Countess Lichtenau.)

So: Frederick was bff with none other than Sir William Hamilton, future husband of Emma, envoy in Naples, and son of Lady Achibald Hamilton whom Hervey the memoirist, Frederick's Dad, was entertainingly and jealously bitchy about in his memoirs, accusing her of having an affair with Fritz of Wales. Be that as it may, Frederick Hervey and William both started out as youngest sons of younger sons and thus without any prospects but came to inherit regardless. They met in school when they were 16 and formed a life long bond, not least about their shared love of antiquities, volcanoes and travelling. When Fred Hervey was still a younger brother, he visited Sir William in Naples for the first time and saw the fact Vesuvious had a cloud hanging of itself not as discouragement but as the signal to make a climb right then and there. He got burned at his arm for his trouble but watched the lava in awe.

During that Naples visit, the oldest Hervey brother of that generation, George (destined to die without an heir, thus making Augustus the next Lord Bristol, otherwise only known for objecting to his mother's Jacobitism) scored by being appointed as Lord Lietenant of Ireland. This meant that he did something for brother Frederick, who'd become a member of the Anglican clergy mostly because for a youngest son of the gentry, that's one way to have at least an income. (Frederick, like his father, had also married for love and thus not a rich heiress, and, like his father, had fallen out of love after the marriage, which didn't stop him from procreating.) Now that George was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he made brother Fred the Bishop of Derry, which at once improved Frederick's living prospects to no end.

As we've seen, Frederick entertained himself by being a controversial (Anglo)Irish prelate who supports American rebels, wants requal rights for Catholics and makes his portly clergy do midnight sprints if they want to get promoted. An indignant G3, told about these shenanigans, took to calling him "the wicked prelate". Once not only brother George but also brother Augustus were dead, and thus Frederick the next Lord (and Earl of) Bristol, he returned to his globetrotting ways with a vengeance, just in time to not only visit his old mate Sir William in Naples again, where William had scandalized the world by actually marrying Emma the blacksmith's daughter and likely former teenage prostitute, and making her Lady Hamilton, but also to visit Rome when FW2's favourite mistress (and daughter of an army trumpeteer) Wilhelmine Countess of Lichtenau was there. Lord Bristol introduced Wilhelmine to Emma, Horowski says, and a good time was had by all. He also fell for her, and since she wasn't travelling alone but had hers and FW3's daughter Diederike (really, Diederike, not Friederike), aka "Riekchen" with her, Frederick suddenly had a brainwave: how about marrying Diederike to his own son, young Frederick (future Victorian scissors employer to Hervey's memoirs and Augustus' journal)? Hervey/Hohenzollern OTP!

Alas, not yet Victorian Frederick did not fancy marrying a child of sin. He instead wanted to marry a proper English nobility girl, for love, who again didn't have any money. This caused Lord Bristol to write a warning letter pointing out that marrying for love instead of money had caused misery in three generations of Herveys and did he really want to add a fourth? What was wrong with marrying an almost princess and daughter of a Prussian King, is what Frederick the globetrotting Bishop wants to know, while simultanously putting the moves on her mother, writing her letters praising her "dangerous white decoltee", her mouth, and other parts, and following her back to Berlin. (He also uses the opportunity to arrange a sale of his buddy Sir William Hamilton's vases to FW2.) But Frederick the future Victorian remains stubborn, and Wilhelmine has had enough, and marries Riekchen to some Prussian nobleman instead. With a sigh, Frederick the Bishop leaves Prussia, and not a moment too soon, because then FW2 dies, which means bad times for Wilhelmine the good time girl, whom FW3 goes after with an unbecoming vengeance, putting her on a show trial, stripping her of all possessions and banishing her to Glogau in Silesia, where however the irrepressible Wilhelmine charms her next young man and next husband, a student pal of E.T.A. Hoffmann's.

Meanwhile, Fred the travelling bishop has of course not returned to Derry or the family seat Ickworth, but to lovely Italy. Except who else is in lovely Italy? Napoleon with lots of French armies. Lord Bristol discovers his inner patriot and entering the "Cisalpine Republic" whose foundation Napoleon has just strongly encouraged, he writes a long spying report, fancying himself the Scarlet Pimpernel. But he's really not, so the report never reaches England and is intercepted, and thus Frederick sends the next 18 months languishing in Milanese custody until being released again. Fred Hervey heads towards Rome, and en route falls sick, like his late father, of "gout of the stomach". At first, the Albano peasant who takes him in is amused and flattered by the English milord, but then Frederick makes the mistake of mentioning he's an Anglican bishop. A HERETIC! Fie, thinks the Albano peasant, no English heretics under my roof, and chucks Hervey outdoors, where Frederick dies. His body is brought back to be buried in Ickworth, and so they can get it through the various quaranteene and other customs rules, it's declared to be a statue.

In conclusion, what a family. And I must admit, I'm really curious what a child carrying the Hervey and the Hohenzollern genes would have been like...

Edited Date: 2023-04-05 07:36 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

When Fred Hervey was still a younger brother, he visited Sir William in Naples for the first time and saw the fact Vesuvious had a cloud hanging of itself not as discouragement but as the signal to make a climb right then and there. He got burned at his arm for his trouble but watched the lava in awe.

This is the boring guy? Come on, Lucy Worsley!

This caused Lord Bristol to write a warning letter pointing out that marrying for love instead of money had caused misery in three generations of Herveys and did he really want to add a fourth? What was wrong with marrying an almost princess and daughter of a Prussian King, is what Frederick the globetrotting Bishop wants to know, while simultanously putting the moves on her mother

Wow, I had forgotten all of this, probably because I had little idea who these Herveys were.

At first, the Albano peasant who takes him in is amused and flattered by the English milord, but then Frederick makes the mistake of mentioning he's an Anglican bishop. A HERETIC! Fie, thinks the Albano peasant, no English heretics under my roof, and chucks Hervey outdoors, where Frederick dies.

Woooow.

His body is brought back to be buried in Ickworth, and so they can get it through the various quaranteene and other customs rules, it's declared to be a statue.

Also wow.

In conclusion, what a family. And I must admit, I'm really curious what a child carrying the Hervey and the Hohenzollern genes would have been like...

Ha! Yeah, that would have been an interesting AU.

Re: Fritz of Hervey

From:

selenak - Date: 2023-04-05 01:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

Augustus Hervey's younger brother Frederick, the later globetrotting Earl-Bishop (Earl of Bristol, Bishop of Derry), has a starring role in the last bit of the book

Aw YESSSS

selenak, you are awesome, thank you for finding this for me :DD

So: Frederick was bff with none other than Sir William Hamilton, future husband of Emma, envoy in Naples, and son of Lady Achibald Hamilton whom Hervey the memoirist, Frederick's Dad, was entertainingly and jealously bitchy about in his memoirs, accusing her of having an affair with Fritz of Wales.

Better and better! I knew this guy would be entertaining :D

They met in school when they were 16 and formed a life long bond, not least about their shared love of antiquities, volcanoes and travelling.

I laughed at the "volcanoes." I mean, my second thought (even before reading the rest of the paragraph) was that Mt. Vesuvius was a thing and so it's not as weird as it sounds, it just... from my US 21st-century perspective it does sound like an incredibly niche interest :D

This caused Lord Bristol to write a warning letter pointing out that marrying for love instead of money had caused misery in three generations of Herveys and did he really want to add a fourth?

I mean! He's not wrong! (Though the Herveys also seem to make a habit of never staying in love, either.)

What was wrong with marrying an almost princess and daughter of a Prussian King, is what Frederick the globetrotting Bishop wants to know, while simultanously putting the moves on her mother

Me, reading the first half of that sentence: You know, sounds like what my parents used to tell me: it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich guy as a poor guy. (I mean, this was their claim, anyway.)
Me, reading the second half of that sentence and doing a spittake: ...okay, NOT like my parents.

he writes a long spying report, fancying himself the Scarlet Pimpernel. But he's really not, so the report never reaches England and is intercepted, and thus Frederick sends the next 18 months languishing in Milanese custody until being released again.

:D I laughed again. THIS GUY.

Fie, thinks the Albano peasant, no English heretics under my roof, and chucks Hervey outdoors, where Frederick dies.

Wow. I mean, too bad he died, but, like, he died like he lived: in a way that is entertaining to me :P

His body is brought back to be buried in Ickworth, and so they can get it through the various quaranteene and other customs rules, it's declared to be a statue.

This is an AWESOME detail.

OMG, this was everything I wanted out of learning more about Frederick Hervey! Thank you again :DDDDD

So did Horowski say what happened to not-yet-Victorian Frederick and his fourth generational non-moneyed love?

Re: Fritz of Hervey

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2023-04-17 12:54 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

prinzsorgenfrei and I struggled for a while with the transcription of the reply to Peter's "can I have some money?" question. My colleague from grad school who I reached out to finally had time to figure it all out, and she reached out to another colleague (more expert in paleography, I gather), who confirmed that the note in the margin is not by Fritz (that also becomes obvious once you can read it) but was added in the same hand at the same time. It's not a verdict, just a comment.

My colleague was able to get all but one word, and I'm pretty sure I got that one word, so here we go:

que quelque bonne volonte que le Roy saurait avoir pour luy+ (+dont L.M. luy avoit dise donne des marquez) d'autres depense indispensables l'oblegeraient cependant di luy dire qu'il faudroit qu'il pnd patience jusqu'au L.M. saurait trouver qlq. occasion favorable pour l'aider

She transcribed "occasion" as "ouailron" and said "not sure about that one." I spent an entire boring work meeting alternately staring at it, asking Google, looking at the Le dictionnaire de l'Académie française from various centuries, and so forth.

I finally decided to work backwards. I went to Google Translate, put in "opportunity" in English and asked it to tell me what possibilities there were in French (I love that it gives you multiple options), and "l'occasion" came up. I stared at the handwriting again, concluded that the dot on the i could be on the wrong side of the 's', and that the 'u' could totally be 'cc', and now I'm pretty sure that's it.

Teamwork!

So the important point here, and the reason I really, really wanted to read the marginal note, is that know we know it's *not* Fritz saying, for example, "Give him X amount of money next month." Which means that we have no evidence that the box of money that Fritz surprised Peter with a few months later, the one I wrote fic about, was not the first time he had given him money after Peter's request, which means I think that gift was not out of the blue, but was in response to Peter saying, "I borrowed a bunch of money to get back to Prussia when you told me to, can you please reimburse it?" Which says something about their dynamic at the time: this was Peter-initiated and not Fritz-initiated. (It also tells me Hanway, our source for that gift, probably didn't know Peter had asked for money and not been given it, which makes perfect sense, as that's not the sort of thing you might tell an old friend passing through that you haven't seen in 10 years!)

The gift in 1753 *seems* to be Fritz-initiated, in that Lehndorff says he was giving money to a bunch of officers, and Peter was one of them.

Detective work is so rewarding: for years we've known about the 1750 gift episode because of Hanway, but we didn't know about the first half of this episode! :D

ETA: Btw, said native French speaker colleague has been indispensable, but I'm sticking with my original reading of "S.M." over her "L.M.", even though I can see why she got an "L" out of that character--I'd read it as an "L" too without context. But "Sa Majesté" and "S.M." I've encountered a zillion times, and neither my searches of Trier nor my searches of my memory are returning any instances of "L.M." (There's a set of hits for "L. Motte de Fouque" in Trier, and that's all) or "Leur Majesté."

Son of ETA: I'm also planning on doing a thorough, character-by-character readthrough, and maybe restoring some of my original readings (like "sauroit" instead of "saurait"), but the important thing is that the stuff we couldn't figure out has been figured out!

Edited Date: 2023-04-07 12:10 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It took me most of the day, and this is as much as I can do before bed, but I wrestled with the first letter from Leining to Fredersdorf, and this is what I came up with. As you can see, I was able to get the gist of it!

Hochwohlgeborener Herr,
Hochgeehrter Herr Geheim Kammerier!

Er. Hochwohlgeboren habe das glück zu welchen mich
Sr. Mayt. Unser allergnädigster könig er-
hoben, nicht verbergen, sondern vielmehr
aus dero gegen mich alzeit blicken lassen
den freundschaft NaXXhiXXen wollen:
das Sr. Mayt. so gnädig gewesen und mich in
Euer Hochwolgebor[s] Caracteur zu erheben
gerühet, und zweifle nicht dieselben
werden Theil an diesen meinen glück
nehmen; beklage aber herzlich und sehe
mit betrübnis die Künde entgegen
das da dieselben sehr schlecht [seyn]
sollen, welche mich Er Hochwohlgebor.
und dero freundschaft entrissen
könte.
Und da die [Hochanstände] mich noch nicht
[bekannt] Er. Hochwohlgeboren aber [als]
ein alter XXaXtious [auch] [den] XXeiXs[t|s]e[n]
[Ansta]nd davon wissen, so schmeichle mich
mit der alten freundschaft, Er. Hochwohlgeboren
werden die g[ewo]genheit haben, und mich
hiervon das möglichste [Lic]ht geben, in
erwartung dessen, habe die Ehre mich
mit fester hochachtung zu nennen
Er Hochwohlgebohren

P.S. ich werde in 3? Dagen, [die] XXX [H]aben mon tres cher compere
die vollig Relation von der Ursache meines avancement
Xu [schreiben|schicken] weil Carl noch XXXXXX [liegt]?? undt nicht DeterminXX
ist ob [er] wied[er] Laquay werden soll.

P.S. [There's another postscript here, but it's past my bedtime already.]

Notes:
A capital X is placeholder for a character and means I have no idea.

Brackets mean *either* this is what it looks like to me, even though that doesn't exactly make sense, *or* this is what I filled in because it made sense even though it doesn't look exactly like that to me.

[X|Y] means I think it's X or Y (but could be Q for all I know).

?? means I'm especially unsure.

Even without annotation, though, anything could be wrong! I'm sure I've mixed up my cases and genders on the definite article at least one: der/den/das/des all look way too much alike, and I have no sense of what the correct grammar is. I'm also sure that I've gotten a number of things wrong even aside from that. Please feel free to substitute something that makes more sense if you're an actual speaker of German. The images are here and here, if that helps at all.

The postscript is scribbled and the letters are different enough that it's hard to match up to the main text when I'm unsure; so we're dealing with a smaller sample size here. I do think it's the same hand, just written more hastily.

I want "NaXXhiXXen" to be "nachschicken", but it really really doesn't look like that. Your best guess is welcome.

So! On to the content.

This is April 3, 1757, i.e. 6 days before the day Emmi Wegfraß claims that Fredersdorf was dismissed. We see Leining is writing with great respect to Fredersdorf, and he expresses dismay at the news that Fredersdorf is in such bad shape that he and his friendship could be ripped away from Leining.

The recipient DOES NOT sound like someone who was dismissed on April 9 in disgrace. He sounds like someone who stepped down voluntarily before April 3 because he was dying.

There's also something in the postscript about Carl (the page?) and it's apparently not been determined yet whether he's going to become a lackey or not.

Selena or Felis, if you want to do the honors of a translation, possibly after you've puzzled out some things that defeated me, and cleaned up my mistakes, I will leave that to you with gratitude.

Off to bed, and hopefully the second postscript and maybe even another letter tomorrow! (It's going faster; I have a technique that works for me, I'm getting familiar with his hand, and the larger the sample size, the easier it is to match up "this weird scribble" to "this character I figured out earlier." I'm not yet at the point where it would be feasible to put in an archive: one, it takes forever, and two, I need Google translate to help me out from time to time. But I'm getting closer!)

Edited Date: 2023-04-14 01:16 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Woohoo! It's fabulous that we have this, and all due to your initiative and Prinzsorgenfrei's help! And

cahn creating the Fredersdorf Defense Fund!

Okay, bureaucratic Rokoko German to the max, and to be fair, Fritz' repeated invectives on the German language are probably due to the fact that this kind of German - along with servant talk and army jargon - is one he most often hears. (Given he reads no fictional German prose or poetry.)

So, here's what I got:

Illustrious Sir, honored Secret Councillor!

Sir, I cannot hide the good fortune to which his Majesty our gracious King has raised me, but want to announce it as you've always shown friendship towards me: that his Majesty has been so gracious as to raise me to your Grace's position, and I do not doubt you will participate in my happiness. However, I thoroughly lament and note the news that you are so very ill as to make it possible I could lose your Grace and your friendship.

And as I have not yet aquainted myself with all the circumstances, but your Grace as an old professional knows all about it, I flatter myself that your Grace due to our old friendship will be so kind as to enlighten me as much as possible. In this expectation, I have hte honour to call myself with gerat respect, your Grace -

P.S. In three dayys, I 'll have know the complete report on the cause of my promotion, mon tres cher compere, and will send it then, as Carl is still pondering and hasn't decided yet whether he wants to become a lackey again.

As you can see, I've made some educated guesses about the undecyphered words out of the context, and welcome any alternative guesses. (

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2023-04-14 04:49 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I'm not yet at the point where it would be feasible to put in an archive

Ugh, typo: I mean "put me in an archive."

Which point I am proving as I struggle through letter 3: it's substantially different from letters 1 and 2, and 4 looks different still.

Persevering with lots of Xs that I hope to fill in later!

Looks like we're still talking about the seal from letter 2, btw. I think Leining is returning it to Fredersdorf? We'll see! And letter 4 definitely mentions Glasow, so I intend to wrestle that one this weekend.

ETA: Just finished the first pass through letter 3, and I'm starting to suspect it's by a different hand. The 'a's are completely different, more French-like than German-like, and I think a number of the letters are more French-like. Perhaps not coincidentally, there's more French in this letter. Instead of German addresses and valedictions, it has a bunch of French (you'll see). I think Leining had a secretary who was more comfortable in French than German. I suspect it's a little too soon to be this Gentze guy already? But someone.

The date and location are also written differently. On letters 1 and 2:

Lockewitz
der 3te Aprill 1757

On letter 3:

Lockewitz [der] 10te Aprill
1757

So, not quite back to square one, but a definite setback in my speed and ease of transcription. Now I'll start going back over the letter to see if I can figure out more of this secretary's characteristics. Right now the transcription is a big mess of Xs and brackets. Wish me luck!

Daughter of ETA: Argh, I'm pretty close to having something I'm ready to hand over to German speakers for letter 3, but I must go to bed. Tomorrow morning!

Edited Date: 2023-04-15 01:07 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This is the best I can do without spending all day on it:

Hochwohlgeborener Herr,
Hochgeehrter Herr Geheime Kammerier!

Da ich mit dem Haüptmann v Oppen bey Visita-
tion das Kammer Diener Glasow Sachen
ünter andern au[s] [1]? gantz Neues Petschafte
welches Eu. Hochwohlgeb. zu gehöret gefunden
So habe auf ordre Sr. Mayt. mit den Haüpt-
mann v Oppen den Glasow Examiniret
wo er dieses Neu gestochene Petschaft
herhabe, da [war] dessen Legitimation
erhätte es unter denen Sachen welchen
er [Neulich] von Eu. Hochwohlgeb. gern die
wahrheit hier von wissen wollen
mich [ohn] besch[w]ehrt mit erstere zu
melden, ob dieselben, eines von dero
Petschafte verlohren gegangen; das
[S]elbe egalisiert die letzte Depesche
a[us] Glasow zu gesiegelt hatten.
In Erwartung einer baldiger Antworts,
habe die Ehre mit der beständigsten
freundschaft zu seyn

Eu hochwohlgeb.
[beständig] [treuer?] [freund] undt
[diener]

Leining

Lockewitz
der 4te Aprill, 1757

No Xs this time, but lots of brackets, and I'm pretty sure plenty of mistakes. If anything doesn't make sense, feel free to point it out if you don't know what it should be, and correct it if you do.

The signature line is my best guess from context, it's almost impossible for yours truly to read. I'm pretty sure about the 'undt', though! ;) (Though I originally typed "[imdt]??" before having a "duh" moment.

Lots of Rokoko bureaucratic German in this one, and I'm leaning on you for a translation, Selena.

But I've gathered enough to conclude that the only way this letter could be consistent with Fredersdorf, Master Embezzler, is that he got caught helping Glasow embezzle...but he still stepped down before April 9, and the Glasow embezzlement has nothing to do with Kiekemal!

The Justice for Fredersdorf Society has spoken. ;)

I'll tackle the third letter later today or tomorrow. Also, observe from the timestamp how it is not currently 9 pm in Boston, meaning I got through a postscript plus a whole new letter in just half a day this time! There was way more getting it right as I went through the first time, and way less going back over it again and again. Some whole words I now recognize in his handwriting!

Edited Date: 2023-04-14 07:37 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

As you can see, this new secretary's handwriting was a real struggle. Of particular relevance to you as you read this: it's often impossible to tell an 'o' apart from an 'a', so feel free to swap one out for the other if that makes more sense. (Did not have this problem with the previous secretary, who wrote in a more pure Kurrent, in which the 'a' is freaking weird if you're not used to it, but at least completely distinct from any other character!)

Monsieur mon tres cher Amy
et tres chere compere

Ich habe das Vergnügen ihnen das Petschaft so die [St]iXX
[dar]übe[r] nach st[ec]hen lassen zu über wachen [ei|we]niger dieses
der Lieut. v Ga[rtz]?? wirdt ihnen ihre infamien [ziem]lich er[z]ehlen [Ka]üne
weil ich wegen dem wirrwarr nach nicht so viel zeit habe es zu baXiXX
zü bringen, der [hofmeister] ist ein Schürk aber hierin unschüldig
ich habe nach der fredenschaftlishen manier welche[n|m] ich viele obligation
habe das ich so viel ündter der handt von ihXXr geXrXt mit güten und
böse inquerirt bis ich das [Lack] wornach [e]s gestochen Von [Pitsche] Stecher
erhalten habe, Sr. Königl Mayt. wolten es Cachee gehalte wissen sonsten
wurde, d[ie] Petshir Stecher den process aüch gemacht haben g[enü]g die
Canalien [s|f]eindt etwas belohnt ündt ich dancke gott das ich ihn los
bin, [werther] freündt helpXen sie mir doch mit nachrichte w[o|ir|ie] [sie]
es der 24-^r gemacht wenn sie die gelder empfangen, und hernach
die [re]chnungen [die] besohlt werden sollen [ein] gebe haben, sie
obligeren undt Soulagiren unsere gnädiger König die Rechnunge
Von Michelet haben ich shon erhalten, Es hat mir der Cellermeister gr[oß]
geschrieben das Ko[Z]Koffe Xi [SchambX]*: undt Borgon wein Lie[fer]n wolte der König
aber will [si]e nicht haben sondern mon tres cher amy würden [und] XX[l]dX
[von] [wehm] die Letzere [weine] wären da solte ich wieder nehme sie wäre
güt, liebster freundt haben sie dann schon Lt. Michel [gesehen] undt [weine]
dü[nke] Trutschel [dencken] [sie] welche gnade, Sr. Mayt haben mir aus freyer stücke
gesagt wenn ich zu Haus käme solte ich heurathe und in maXX Haus wohnen
denn [Er] k[ennte] mich schon gar zu Lang als eine Ehrliche Kerl welche gnade,
an Madame la Treseriere [bi]tte [meine] Respect zü versiche[rn] ich aber bliebe
Mon tres chere compere
votre tres humble et
fidele
serviteur
Leining

Lockewitz [der] 10te Aprill
1757

*Ko[Z]KoffeXi [S]chambX: The writing becomes really weird here. It's hard to even tell whether "Ko[Z]KoffeXi" is one word, two, or three. Is it some kind of abbreviation? Or code? [S]chambX might be Chambre, with this guy's predilection for Sh over Sch and ch. But that might not even be an S; it looks vaguely like he wrote an S and then decided to put a C over it, which might be a correction to Chambre, or might be a completely different capital letter that just looks like CS.

selenak, over to you for a translation with your best guesses. Sorry I had to leave so many placeholders in this one. (It's often a choice of leaving a placeholder, writing a character that seems clear but results in a word that makes no sense to me, and writing a word that makes sense to me but doesn't match the characters I'm seeing. I vary my choice among the three depending on my confidence level in the word and/or the characters in it.)

Off to tackle letter 4! (Maybe he'll finally have time to give us more details on Glasow, because while I don't blame Leining for saying the messenger will have to bring Fredersdorf up to speed because he himself is swamped, won't somebody please think of the historians!!)

ETA: Ugh. Letter 4's handwriting is pretty clear, but the ink is SO faded that I'm at maximum zoom and still straining to see*. I'm sure once I get used to the individual letters, it'll be easier, though. They seem to be formed with reasonable care, though I haven't yet determined how similar they are, ESPECIALLY WITH HALF THE INK MISSING.

You see why I never took a single paleography class in my university days. :P

* P.S. I woke up this morning with my right eye painfully inflamed and watering. For a while, I was wandering around the house half-blind, but it's slowly letting up, as you can see from the fact that I was able to finish and share letter 3. This kind of eye pain has never happened to me before, and I'm not sure whether to blame 18th century German secretaries or not. :PPP More data points required.

Off to gather more data points. If letter 4 doesn't make my eyes bleed, nothing will! :P

Edited Date: 2023-04-15 02:55 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

From:

cahn - Date: 2023-04-17 12:19 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

In the latest episode of the History of Byzantium podcast, the podcaster, Robin, interviewed (not for the first time) Dr. Anthony Kaldellis, one of the top current authorities on Byzantium, and this time he cajoled the historian to provide a personal "Top Ten Greatest Emperors" list, which is the kind of fannish thing academic historians otherwise avoid or at least don't admit it. It made for a very interesting and amusing episode. Now, most of the Emperors won't be familiar to you guys (yet?), but I thought I'd share a bit about those who are, and what Kaldellis said about them. Also, important to note that he did give his criteria for how he defines "great" - as having mastered the various sides of the job, not just military but political, in a way that the positives outweigh the negatives of your reign, and/or as having left a lasting big and transformative impact on the realm. Oh, and several of the Emperors he picked were ones who became Emperors at a time of crisis and had to pick up from a devastating situation, which if they mananaged to steer the realm into a recovery makes it all the more impressive. Hence, for example, Leo III, who was Emperor when the big original Islam Conquest wave had pummeled Byzantium for almost a century to the point where the Arabs had pushed the Romans back to Constantinople itself and were besieging it - it was this Leo who managed to get Constantinope through both of the big Arab sieges, the second one lasting over a year, and to turn the tide so that Byzantium started to go on the offensive again. (With his son Constantine V. - another one who made the list who according to the podcaster was grossily vilified by later historians because under him iconoclasm reigned and all the later historians were iconophiles - being the one who started to reconquer the Byzantine territories in a big way. Since the podcast has gone through the 1204 Fourth Crusade sacking, the contrast between Constantinope withstanding over a year of an Arab army camped outside and collapsing centuries later when a bunch of French, German and Venetian soldiers with far less manpower were is indeed great and points to the difference in leadership.

So, of the Emperors we already talked about, on the list at place 7 is Alexios I. Komnenos, the first of the Komnenos Emperors and hero of his daughter Anna's Alexiad, who came to power after the collapse of the Macedonian dynasty post Basil II led to a series of no good Emperors, ambitious generals fighting each other, and no one able to muster a defense against the Turks and Normans taking this as their cue for invading from all sides. It was this Alexios who as I told you,

cahn, after taking power thought he might be able to solve his problem by writing to the Pope and asking said Pope to rouse some Latins to help against the Turks, with the Pope (Urban, currently ousted of Rome and residing in France because Henry IV HRE had installed an antipope in Rome) taking this as his cue to regain leadership of Christendom by calling for the First Crusade and telling folk to go to Jerusalem.

Alexios isn't the only Komnenos on the list; also there is his grandson Manuel Komnenos, despite the severe downside of not having killed cousin Andronikos. Both Komenoi gets credit for having been dealt a bad card by fate but playing it very well and with a mixture of diplomacy, guile and determination reestablishing (Alexios) or keeping (Manuel) the Byzantine Empire for what would turn out the last time as a serious power to be reckoned with among the other big powers of the era.

Also on the list: the first villain of Judith Tarr's novel The Eagle's Daughter, John Tsimitsikes. (At No.5, no less.) Professor Kaldellis argues that Uncle Nicopheros Phokas was a great general but a really bad Emperor with his complete lack of political skills and ability to piss everyone off instead, and that his murder caused not a single riot in a city famous for its riots but everyone going "yeah, we're cool with that" when before he became Emperor they'd hailed the guy as the bringer of victory, greatest hero ever says something about this. So John inherited (well, murdered to get) a mess, and in record time managed to smooth everything out, including relations with Otto I HRE (whom Nicopheros had refused a Byzantine bride for not yet Otto II to) by providing his niece, Theophanu, and in his subsequent reign managed to keep both the army and the people happy; he was a good general in his own right but importantly didn't give Constantinople the impression they were living under a military dictatorship and that the state existed to feed the army as Nicopheros had done. And he won back the church/the patriarch. That he did so by pinning the entire murder on Theophano the older ("Who as far as I can tell had done nothing wrong" says Kaldellis) and ruined her reputation with historians forever was morally wrong but statesmanlike right, as it allowed the Patriarch to accept him and for unity of church and state to be restored.

John is at No.5 and thus outranks Theophano's eternally unmarried son Basil II (who is at point 7) despite Basil's fame as the Bulgar Slayer because while Basil had his realm in so good a grip as to be able to remain away from the capital for years, that's exactly one of the downsides in Kalldellis' pov: Basil's reign had inner peace and outward won wars (he was called "a cat among mice"), yes, and lasted longer than any other Roman Emperor's reign, but there was no corresponding floroushing of the arts and of civil life (as, say, in the time of Augustus), because the Emperor was hardly ever in the capital and didn't support any alternate centre of culture, either. Plus, of course, the lack of a succession arrangement by preventing his brother who would succeed him from having any responsibilities before that to learn the ropes, and his brother's daughters' from marrying, thus knowingly killing the dynasty, and not establishing a top general to succeed him, either.

Not on the list at all: Justinian. Who had gigantic plusses but also gigantic minuses and in the end the minuses outweighed the plusses for Kaldellis, not least because all the wars Justinian started to restablish the Roman Empire in Italy and Spain were just too much in the end for his successors to handle and completely depleted the previously well filled treasury.

So who is number 1? It is... drumroll... Constantine. Because, says Kaldellis, you can't beat Constantine for sheer impact. Choosing the backwarter army garnison of Byzantium and turning it into Constantinople being one of the two biggest transformative changes he was responsible for. He did it for strategic reasons, because of the way a city at this geographical point could be defended in a way original Rome never could be and because it was able to connect East and West, and it did all that and more for millennia. It's questionable whether any other location (say hello, Ravenna) could have done that and became what Constantinople did, and no Constantinople, no East Roman Empire for the next millennium, and no Istambul.

The other big one is of course Christianity, having gone through its greatest prosecution wave under Diocletian just a generation earlier. The decision to legitimize it and do make it in fact a state religion changed and shaped not just the Roman Empire but all of world history from this point onwards. Now whether it was for the better or worse than if he hadn't done that is arguable, but what can't be argued is that it was a transformative change of an unequalled magnitude until the Reformation came, and perhaps even beyond that.

Kaldellis: "All this said? He was a murderous bastard. I mean. Never mind Nero, there's no other Emperor until then who killed that many members of his own family. Being a subject of Constantine was arguably good to be. But a family member?"

Pre-Constantine Emperors and their record at killing family members: hmmm. Let's see about Nero and him:

Nero: his mother, his stepbrother (and cousin), his first wife (and cousin, sister to said stepbrother). Possibly his second wife as well, though the story of Nero kicking Poppea in the stomach when she was pregnant is debated and might have been made up.

Constantine: his wife Fausta, his oldest son Crispus, his nephew (son of one of his sisters), his father-in-law (Maximian, though that depends whether you count "forced to commit suicide", his brother-in-law (Maxentius, the guy defeated in the "In this sign you will conquer" battle at the Milvian Bridge).

Mildred, you're better with the later Emperors, how about Caracalla, didn't he off his brother? Anyone else from the family?

And then there's good old Augustus, the very first Emperor. I suppose it depends whom you count as family and whether you include babies.

Augustus: killed (as in ordered dead, not personally killed, which is true for Constantine as well): Caesarion ("too many Caesars are not good", he's supposed to have said), Uncle Julius Caesar's son by Cleopatra, Marc Antony's oldest son by Fulvia, Antyllus, and many years later Antony's younger son by Fulvia as well who supposedly had a love affair with Augustus' daughter Julia; said Julia had a daughter also called Julia (which is why novelists usually call her Julilla), who like her mother ended banished by Augustus to an island, and her newborn baby exposed to die under the pretext of being illegitimate (though Julilla's husband denied any adultery had taken place and was banished as well for doing so). Then there's the question of just who ordered the equally banished grandson Postumus' death - Postumus was executed immediately after Augustus' death, and the order could have come from Tiberius, Livia or possibly Augustus himself (in the event of his death).

Anyway, back to Constantine - Robin the podcaster asks whether Professor Kaldellis counts Constantine destroying the Tetrarchy as a minus or a plus, and whether in his opinion Constantine needed to do that in the situation he was in.

Kaldellis: "Oh no, he didn't have to. That was sheer ambition. However, the Tetrarchy had been going off the rails at this point already, long before Constantine made his play. It's questionable whether it was ever a workable model beyond Diocletian's personal reign."

Mildred? Going by everything I've read for your Yuletide Madness treat, he's right there, but I didn't go in too deep.

From:

cahn

This is greeeeat! I'm so glad you are keeping me up to date on this. (I'm inching closer to Canossa in the German History podcast; not yet there. But this is all making me vaguely think more about rereading the John Julius Norwich's Short History of Byzantium book, which I realize isn't the most accurate but which I remember being quite entertaining. (Though I obviously didn't retain very much.)

a personal "Top Ten Greatest Emperors" list, which is the kind of fannish thing academic historians otherwise avoid or at least don't admit it.

Heeee! But they totally should more often! (Though I can see that this would just lead to unending arguments!)

It was this Alexios who as I told you, [personal profile] cahn, after taking power thought he might be able to solve his problem by writing to the Pope and asking said Pope to rouse some Latins to help against the Turks

Ah, yes, he sounded quite reasonable :)

that his murder caused not a single riot in a city famous for its riots but everyone going "yeah, we're cool with that"

Ha! Okay, yeah, that sounds fair :)

Not on the list at all: Justinian. Who had gigantic plusses but also gigantic minuses and in the end the minuses outweighed the plusses for Kaldellis, not least because all the wars Justinian started

Huh! Okay, that makes sense.

Choosing the backwarter army garnison of Byzantium and turning it into Constantinople being one of the two biggest transformative changes he was responsible for. He did it for strategic reasons, because of the way a city at this geographical point could be defended in a way original Rome never could be and because it was able to connect East and West, and it did all that and more for millennia. It's questionable whether any other location (say hello, Ravenna) could have done that and became what Constantinople did, and no Constantinople, no East Roman Empire for the next millennium, and no Istambul.

Oh, that's really interesting!
Okay, tell me about Ravenna? The only thing I know about it is that it has lots of mosaics (I would love to go see these someday) and that it is where my boy Dante went after being exiled from Florence (I'd love to visit it for that reason too). Wiki tells me it was the capital of the Western Roman Empire for a little while?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Mildred, you're better with the later Emperors, how about Caracalla, didn't he off his brother? Anyone else from the family?

I, haha, maybe ten years ago I was, but these days I can't remember who on earth killed who, other than yes, Caracalla killed Geta. I do remember that.

However, the Tetrarchy had been going off the rails at this point already, long before Constantine made his play. It's questionable whether it was ever a workable model beyond Diocletian's personal reign."

Mildred? Going by everything I've read for your Yuletide Madness treat, he's right there, but I didn't go in too deep.

From everything I've read, I agree, but one day we'll do Classics salon and do a deeper dive!

(I have to say, I've *never* studied any historical period as deeply as we're studying 18th century history. Truly, the alchemy is powerful, and it is the *best*.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hochwohgeborene Herr,
Zusonders hochzuehrender herr geheimer Cammerer!

Es findet sich ünter das Glasows zürück gelassene Papieren
eine Rechnüng von Messrs Girard Michelet & Comp. a 358XX 20XX
worin ünter andern eine Post von 28XX 12XX für eine Kiste
Eaux de Senteur, so Mr. Mettra ünfern 29 Aug a. p. von das
Königes Mayt. anhero gesandt, befindlich ist. Da mir nün
Gentz gesagt, wie ihm sehr wahrscheinlich vorkomme, daß
diese Post im vorigen Jahre im Monath Septembr a. p. aus
der Königs Chatoulle bezahlet worden: so ersüche Eu. Hochwohlgeb.
die gütigkeit für mich zu haben, ünd die Chatoulle-Rechnüngen
von Mönath Septembr a. p. allenfalls aüch von denen folgenden
Monathen gütigst nachsehen zu lassen ünd mir sodenn das
nöthige zü melden. Nachdem damahligen Geld Co[rres] soll die
Sümme von die obgedachte Kiste [nür] 20XXX aüsg[ema]cht haben, welch
aüch bezahlet worden. Bey dieser gelegenheit möchte aüch gern wissen
wie weit die Pension das Mr. d'Alembert in Paris an Mrs. Girard
Michelet & Comp. vergütet worden? Ich habe dagegen die Ehre, mit
wahren hochachtung zu verharren.
Euer Hochwolgebor.
mon tres cher amy
et compere
votre tres humble
et plus-fidele serviteur
Leining

Over to you, Selena! (Though this one is straightforward enough I could do it, I'm off to see what letter 5 holds.)

You'll notice I didn't figure out the currencies, but I also didn't try super hard. My plan is for us to do as much as we can on these, then I'll compile our transcriptions along with the images and ask

prinzsorgenfrei to look them over to correct and fill in the blanks as needed.

From:

selenak

Kind Sir,
honored Mr. Secret Chamberlain,

among the papers Glasow left behind, there was a bill of Messieurs Girard Michelet & company for 358XX 20XX, wherein among other things one of the item is 28XX 11XX per box of Eaux de Senteur, sent by Monsieur Mettra on August 29th to the Kng's Majesty. As Gentz has told me that it seems likely to him that this item has been paid from the King's purse last year in the month of September, I beseech your Grace to have the kindness as to check the bills for the month of September for me, and possibly also of the following months, and to inform me of the result. Given the monetary value back then, the sum for the above named box should only haved accounted to 20XXX, which has been paid.
Incidentally, I'd like to know how how much of Monsieur D'Alembert's pension has been reimbursed in Paris to Messieurs Girard Michelet & Company? I have the honour of remaining with true respect,

your Grace,
mon tres cher ami etc.

So now we know how people like D'Alembert who had been made honorary members of the Berlin Academy by Fritz but didn't live in Prussia got their pension - evidently Girard Michelet & Company were Fritz' Parisian bankers. Also, no signs of spying yet, just the idea that Glasow has pretended the bills were higher than they were and presumably kept the monetary difference?

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 4

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2023-04-16 03:15 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Leining to Fredersdorf: Letter 4

From:

selenak - Date: 2023-04-16 03:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

Perfumes

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2023-04-16 03:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I'm off to see what letter 5 holds

Halfway through, and the answer so far is: nothing of interest. Really just bill paying. I skimmed the second half, and with the caveat that skimming and this handwriting don't really mix, no interesting proper names jumped out at me.

I will see if I can summon up the energy to read more handwriting; the last few days have been intense (and time-consuming). Thank you for the collaboration, Selena!!, and I'm glad I was able to get to the point of being able to read 5 relevant letters in 4 days with just 5 days of practice. I bet an actual German speaker could do twice as much in half the time. ;)