cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

selenak

And now I'm wondering whether the "König Moltke" moniker goes back to anything other than this book, because right now I have three sources for that claim:

- 20th century romanticizing biographer Barz
- John Brown's propaganda
- A mid-19th century book that thinks that John Brown is a perfectly fine source to cite

well, that doesn't look good in terms of reliability. Otoh, it's a very plausible nickname for any all powerful favourite to be called, so I wouldn't write it off yet.

The Grimms would be very happy for you to know them through their linguistic work, especially Jacob, since that was their main work. Note I'm not saying "their main job". Nobody paid them for it. Jacob first earned his daily bread not just for himself but also for Wilhelm AND for the younger sibs (there were several) as librarian of the Prince of Hesse-Kassel, and then came Napoleon, who reordered and restructured the ca. 200 German principalities into just roughly around 20) (I think? Going by memory here), at which point Hesse-Kassel became part of a larger state which entailed Würtemberg and Münster as well and which he named Würtemberg and had ruled by his youngest brother Jerome, which is when Jacob had the choice to either become penniless or work as Jerome's librarian as well. (Incidentally, in post Napoleonic years, Jacob said Jerome was always perfectly decent to him, though evidently he didn't speak a word of German.) Wilhelm did not have a paying job during the Napoleonic years, though past Napoleon when Hesse-Kassel became its own principality again he also became a librarian. This didn't last forever, though, not least because the Grimms did not get salary raises, so they moved on to becoming university professors in Hannover (the principality, not the city itself - they went to Göttingen, the university of which, founded by G2, btw, which is why it's the Georg-Augustus-Universität, was becoming rapidly the most modern and well reputed in Germany). Alas this was when the personal union between Hannover and Britain ended beause Women Do Not Rule In Salic Lands, and so Victoria became Queen of GB and the last of G3's no good aging lothario sons became Prince of Hannover, refusing to respect the constitution and thus creating one of our most famous 19th century incidents, a bunch of university professors (including both Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm) vs the Prince Elector of Hannover: the "Göttinger Sieben". Which is when the Grimms had to move again and ended up moving to Berlin, becoming university professors again. (FW4 wasn't the most liberal of German monarchs, but he was better than this particular Hannover Cousin.) What they didn't live from all the time: their book sales, not even the fairy tales, and most definitely not the works on linguistics. But they're basically the founding fathers of the subjects in Germany.

Brown crushing on Christian like Zimmermann crushing on Fritz: well, Zimmermann at least met Fritz, and more than once, so let's not be unfair to Zimmermann. Could Brown have met Christian if he visited Denmark post Struensee? I mean, we don't know when he was born from his wiki entry, and maybe he was really old when he committed suicide, but if he wasn't, I think the chances that he could have met Christian (as opposed to hearing about him from other people) are practically zero, yes? Not that this stops a crush, of course. See also lots and lots and lots of Germans & Der Einzige König.

Speaking of Zimmermann, when I looked up Lehndorff's diaries for Denmark references, I came across an entry on the good Doctor. It's just one, in the third volume, shortly before Ulrike arrives from Sweden, but here we go: Currently a Herr Zimmermann, Doctor from Hannover, is staying here, who has conducted a marvellous surgery on Herrn Schmucker. The King who wanted to meet him ordered him to come to Sanssouci. His Majesty was lying in bed, and Herr Zimmermann was allowed to enter the King's room unattended as it's the custom when the King wants to talk with someone. The stranger who didn't spot anyone in the room was very embarassed. At last, he heard a voice call and then saw immediately the King lying in bed wearing his hat, which disturbed him; for he did not know the King is never wearing a night cap. He never wears slippers, either. When he gets out of bed, he immediately pulls on his boots, puts on his hat, and a short jacket.

And that's it, the next sentence is about Frau von Dörnberg. Now, considering Lehndorff wasn't present at this first encounter, he must have had this description from Zimmermann himself, and the difference in tone to the gushing way Zimmermann puts it in his various writings is notable. Also, Lehndorff can't have been too impressed by Zimmermann himself. I mean, this is Lehndorff, if he either likes someone or finds them interesting or is upset about them, you get either ravings or rantings or detailed pen portraits or both, which is why we know about Wartensleben the sugar hoarder and Kaphengst's double chin in later life, and not just when they're royalty, but here, not a word about what he thinks of famous Dr. Zimmermann from Hannover. Hmmmmm.

Also: what is it with Fritz first meeting people lying in bed?

Letters to Moltke: what you said, plus "Nie mahlen wieder tun" (niemals wieder tun in modern German) really does sound like a child promising never to be naughty again, but coming from an all powerful monarch, it's... yeah. If Moltke was König Moltke, he put up with a lot for that Kingdom...

From:

selenak

On a note of "be the change you want", and bearing Mildred's and my conversation about (lack of) shipping manifestos in Blannings' biography (and other biographies) in mind, I hereby suggest to you, mes amies, that Salon does a neat, accessible shipping manifesto/list for the most important Frederician ships. We can then post it at Rheinsberg and link it all over the place. I'm thinking of the following template for the individual ships, taking Fritz/Katte and Fritz/Fredersdorf as examples:

Who is the ship: Fritz/Katte

Do they have a trope? Starcrossed lovers

The story in short: Abused prince wants to escape with tragic boyfriend, both get caught, tragic boyfriend is executed in front of abused prince by tyrannical king.

Key quote(s): "Forgive me, my dear Katte! A thousand times, forgive!" "Nothing to Forgive, my prince - I die for you with joy in my heart!" (We can agree about the ideal version for the manifesto later)

Tell me more: here we mention or link good posts/biographies/films

Who is the ship: Fritz/Fredersdorf:

Do they have a trope?: Magnificent Bastard/Trusted Lieutenant, Life Partners

The story in short: Imprisoned Prince meets musical soldier, musical soldier becomes faithful servant, prince becomes king (and magnificent bastard), faithful servant becomes Consigliere, both become life partners until Consigliere retires for health reasons and dies.

Key Quotes: The "come to the window, I want to see you when I ride out, but keep the window closed and the fire on" letter of course. Though I'm also fond of:

"I thought you loved me and wouldn't want to cause me grief by killing yourself. Now I don't know what to believe! But you must believe I only want what's best for you and that the diet and the medicine is only prescribed so you can recover your health again. I beg you, listen to me, and remember you promised me! Please recall Rothenburg who killed himself by infecting himself with podagra through drinking Hungarian wine and eating a hot soup. Your illness is no laughing matter, and if you don't follow a correct diet and take the right prescribed medicine, you'll die! Think about how this would grieve me! If you love me, then listen exactly to the prescriptions! God keep you! Don't write back!"

Tell me more: link to Rheinsberg posts and AO3 stories.

And so forth. Now, I think dividing the post into big ships (Fritz/Katte, Fritz/Voltaire, Fritz/Fredersdorf, Fritz/Algarotti) and rare ships (Fritz/Keith, Fritz/Suhm, Fritz/Keyserlingk, Fritz/Casanova - I wouldn't include the last one except that they did meet and there are A03 stories with people bearing their name and having none of their personalities) makes sense - anyone else?

And of course yours truly would make a platonic subsection for the two sibling ships, i.e. Fritz & Wilhelmine, Fritz & Heinrich. While in all justice, we should also add Fritz & dogs, and by we I mean that part would have to be written by Mildred who surely has a good quote or several at hand.

Edited Date: 2023-03-04 02:27 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Your wish is my command! Feel free to start filling it out, and

cahn and I will add our contributions.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

well, that doesn't look good in terms of reliability. Otoh, it's a very plausible nickname for any all powerful favourite to be called, so I wouldn't write it off yet.

I haven't written it off! I'm just agnostic until I find a source that predates 1818.

Speaking of things that might go back to this book, I was reading a novel called The Royal Physician's Visit (a prize-winning novel on Struensee written in Swedish and translated into numerous other languages--I am reading it in English), and it had this description of Juliana Maria's son Frederik:

Her only son, the Crown Prince, the King’s half-brother, was physically deformed, his head pointed and twisted sideways; he was regarded as easily led by those who were kind, as hopelessly moronic by others.

That came as a surprise to me, since neither Barz nor anyone else I'd read had mentioned it, so I checked Wikipedia. Nothing. [ETA: well, that his mother had a lot of influence on him, but there's a long way from that to "hopelessly moronic"!]

So I thought, "Well, interesting use of artistic license for a novel."

Now I'm thinking it goes back to John Brown! I will be interested to see if we can trace any sources for Brown.

Thank you for the rundown on the history of the Brothers Grimm, they don't teach you that in historical linguistics programs!

Not that this stops a crush, of course. See also lots and lots and lots of Germans & Der Einzige König.

And one lone (einzige? :P) Arizonan in 1998! ;)

I mean, this is Lehndorff, if he either likes someone or finds them interesting or is upset about them, you get either ravings or rantings or detailed pen portraits or both

Lol, you can tell Lehndorff has no opinion when the episode is relegated to volume 3.

Also: what is it with Fritz first meeting people lying in bed?

Hahahaha! That is interesting about him not wearing a nightcap and slippers, though. So noted for fanfic!

...Given the size and shape of hats in the period, though, how did one wear a tricorn lying down and how comfortable was it? The boots surprise me less, that sounds very Fritzian.

Letters to Moltke: what you said, plus "Nie mahlen wieder tun" (niemals wieder tun in modern German) really does sound like a child promising never to be naughty again

Exactly what I was thinking, and so does "Ich bitte Jhm um Vergebung, dass ich heute nicht artich gewesen bin"! ("I beg him for forgiveness that I wasn't well-behaved/I was naughty today.") Stop me if I'm wrong, but "artig" is a word I've seen used to tell kids and dogs to be good! In fact, I was so surprised by that phrasing that I originally thought maybe it was from the Crown Prince years, when Frederik was 15 or something, but no, it's signed "Friderich R," meaning he was at least in his mid 20s. And yet the sentence before the signature is "vorbleibe mit aller aufrichtiegen Hochachtung und kindlicher Liebe sein getreuer Freünd." ("I remain with all sincere respect and childish/childlike love his faithful friend.") Emphasis mine.

This dynamic is...interesting. I really feel like there's a political power differential in one direction and a very strong emotional power differential in the other direction. Frederik obviously never did mature out of childhood/teenagehood.

Now, granted, Fritz did write that "My dear Suhm, do not forget the tenderness which you owe to an infant whom you have not yet weaned in the school of philosophy" letter that always makes me laugh, but while there's an element of the 18th century over-the-top-ness at work here, I've read both sets of letters pretty closely and there's a real difference. As reflected in the fact that there was never going to be a König Suhm even if he'd lived. Der Einzige König!

If Moltke was König Moltke, he put up with a lot for that Kingdom...

He earned it. (Which is not to say I don't suspect he reinforced the dynamic both consciously and unconsciously, but knowledge of psychology was thin on the ground (is still pretty thin on the ground), and Moltke seems to have avoided at least some of the worst mistakes other parental figures have made. More on which in my upcoming Duke of Parma write-up (maybe this weekend, I've reread and made notes, just need to turn them into paragraphs).)

Edited Date: 2023-03-04 06:10 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

By the way, I was looking up dog quotes in MacDonogh, and here's what our no-homo biographer has to say about the Fredersdorf letters:

Evidence of a much more timid interest in his pages comes from his surviving letters to Fredersdorf, in which there is talk of a certain Carel (C. F. von Pirch). it records slights: ‘Carel has been extremely impolite’; and presents: a leveret and a hussar’s coat for his fifteenth birthday; but it would be hard to see such obsessive doting as a manifestation of the rapacious and tyrannical sexuality described by Voltaire or the pamphleteer.

The contrast with yes-homo Blanning is striking.

From:

cahn

I think I'll have more time to catch up tomorrow, but in the meantime:

AW: Charles I and Cromwell, seriously? "Dearest sister, I should hope that your cause is more just than that of Charles, and that you are far from the tyrannical frame of mind of Cromwell, who under the name of protector became one of the worst tyrants England ever had."

Go AW <3

On a very different note, behold this fanart depicting the first meeting between Fritz and Voltaire!

Heeee! Also I am unexpectedly having feelings about them again?!

But, you know, even when it's not a child talking about a parent, "evil advisors" is THE great psychological balm. That's why Liselotte has her hate on for Madame de Maintenon; if she blames her for all the stuff Louis XIV does wrong, she can excuse him. And let's not forget this even works when the power structure is in reverse, as with Fritz going from still bitching about AW in his letters to Wilhelmine and firing off ungracious letters to telling Catt only months later, once AW is dead, that he was angry just that one time and he would have totally reconciled with AW and AW with him if not for those evil advisors interfering between brothers and stopping AW from making up with him, because he needs to rewrite the immediate past into something he can live with, especially since he damn well knows the rest of the family is blaming him.

I mean, it was even in That Letter! From your writeup at

rheinsberg: "I am all the more crushed as I have always loved him tenderly, and I have always blamed all the trouble he has caused me on his weakness for bad advisors and his choleric temper which he could not always curb."

(The "bad advisors" were some of his best generals and Heinrich himself.)

OH FRITZ.

"Now wretch," said the furious queen, her eyes flashing fire, "thou shalt feel the full weight of my vengeance; thy limbs shall be broken on the wheel for having attempted to poison the crown prince: the proofs of thy guilt are now in thine hands."

Woooooow this is a great story! Poor Juliana.

So: Jacob did the language job, Wilhelm exchanged evil mothers for evil stepmothers and, while he was at it, also edited out stuff like Rapunzel's pregnancy as the giveaway for the sorceress. But the first edition did have all those evil mothers.

Not edited out, because apparently no one had a problem with it: the considerable violence. Hacked off limbs (Cinderella), being drowned in hot lead, dancing to your death in shoes of hot iron (Snow White) - that kind of thing survives all revisions. Until Disney.

This is fascinating, thank you! I found a copy of Grimm in middle school (until then, had mostly been exposed to the Disney versions, or at least less violent versions) and was fascinated by the hacked off heels and toes and dancing to death in shoes of hot iron, lol. Which I guess says something about how they survived revisions :)

aka the story covered in Alan Bennet's play The Madness of George III, which as a film got named "The Madness of King George" so American viewers would not get confused and wonder whether they'd missed parts I and II

I am totally WTFing at this, lol. My history is bad but it's not that bad!

One reason why Victoria left such a mark in the public consciousness is that she (and Albert) practically reinvented the monarchy and how people saw it, presenting an impeccably devoted married couple with adorable children instead of aged libertines screwing around.

This... makes so much sense! This is one of the things I love about you talking about history, btw, that you put together bits and pieces that I had some cultural awareness of (like, I definitely had some conceptions of English monarchs that fit into that picture, haha!) but wasn't able to synthesize like you can.

it has become our natural history museums that the memory of him has been most strongly attached.

I think it's cool when someone in the right place at the right time (and of course with money and/or luck) can really make a difference in this way. This reminded me of the Smithsonian museums in the US, without which I certainly would not have heard of Smithson!

If and when you and Mildred make it to Germany, and I get to show you Bamberg, we can do to the magnificent tomb of Henry and Kunigunde in our cathedral.

These were amazing pictures!!

BTW, I have just gotten to the point in the podcast where the Schleswig-Holstein question has been brought up for the first time! The podcaster asserts that he will make it so I can understand it without going mad. WE SHALL SEE.

From:

selenak

Thank you! I did indeed start, and as I can see so have you. <3

From:

selenak

Indeed. For what it's worth, one of the 2012 Fritz centennary articles quotes the Carel passage as well, this one as proof of Fritz' gayness. I must admit I really hope he didn't get too handsy with a 15 years old entirely dependent on the all powerful King, but what I find weird is that both Blanning and MacDonogh quote or paraphrase/slant the Carel stuff instead of "I thought you loved me, and now you don't take your medicine!" and "I want to see you at the window" etc, which might not be erotic but definitely speaks of love, not benevolent-King-to-loyal-servant affection. (Richter: IT WAS THE LOVE OF A FATHER FOR A SON.)

From:

selenak

That came as a surprise to me, since neither Barz nor anyone else I'd read had mentioned it, so I checked Wikipedia. Nothing. [ETA: well, that his mother had a lot of influence on him, but there's a long way from that to "hopelessly moronic"!]

Indeed. I see wiki says that this Frederik was another case of having a hugely influential teacher (in addition to Mom) who then becomes de facto PM (without having that exact title, Ove Jørgensen Høegh-Guldberg. Now, German wiki says Ove Jorgensen (easier to spell these names than what follows) was "kleinwüchsig", i.e. had dwarfism (if that's the current English expression for it?), and I wonder whether John Brown with his instincts for melodrama conflated him and Frederik the Prince into one character? Either way, given this Frederik was 18 when Struensee died, I'm not surprised that Mom and Ove Jorgensen (another Christian Wolff fan, btw! Though otherwise very much Germans Out! Denmark for the Danish! minded, it seems) were doing the actual governing until getting deposed by CM's son. Mind you, after generations of emotional instability, of course Frederik the never King might have been affected as well, just not as blatantly as brother Christian. (It's not like Frederik V. gave him any more attention than Christian had received, presumably, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been as emotionally dependent on Ove Jorgensen as Dad had been on Moltke.)

BTW, I'm surprised Brown missed out on the chance of having Evilest Queen Juliana carry on an affair with Evil Small Person And Surely True Father Of Her Kid, though not with he made the kid and Ove Jorgensen into one character, I guess.

Is the novel good otherwise?

Hahahaha! That is interesting about him not wearing a nightcap and slippers, though. So noted for fanfic!

Just as a point of comparison, a reminder of what Schöning, SECOND Chamber Hussar, had to say, who as opposed to Lehndorff reports as an eye witness (at least I assume Lehndorff was never invited into the bedchamber for a chat himself, he'd have reported it, but of course he knew Fritz' staff and had to coordinate events with EC occasionally):

During the months of November, December, January and February, the King got to bed between nine and ten pm, and rose between five and six am. During this time, no one was with him, nor did light burn in his bedroom; in the antechambre, two common footmen were keeping watch. He was awoken in the morning in the exact minute he had ordered in the previous evening, and fifteen minutes before that, the fireplace in his bedroom was lighted. Depending on circumstances, he either rose immediately or slept a quarter of an hour, half an hour, sometimes even an hour longer. He dressed himself while in bed with stockings, trousers and boots, the rest he put on while standing in front of the fire in the fireplace. For this was lighted in summer and winter time regardless; for the King sweated so strongly that his nightdress and his sheets had to get dried at the fireplace every time. As soon as he'd gotten dressed, he sat down to read from the intake of arriving letters those he was most interested in while his hairtail was combed; the rest, he sent for summarizing and excerpting to the cabinet secretary. After having read all and put it next to himself on a small table, he rose, washed and put his wig and the hat on him which he always wore, except when sitting at a table or when talking to persons of rank, and went to the first adjoining room to accept the report of the AD of the first bataillon there, or to give him some commands regarding the military.

So that's very similar, but note the hat isn't mentioned. At a guess, Fritz didn't go to bed with it but put it on when receiving strangers, not least because it's now the 1770s, i.e. his natural hair is thin, and it's evening, so he might already have put his wig away, but is conscious enough of his appearance to not want a stranger - especially one working for the Hannover cousins - to see him without his wig and with sparse hair.

As reflected in the fact that there was never going to be a König Suhm even if he'd lived. Der Einzige König!

No kidding. How did that Keysleringk quote again? (I.e. the one that's paraphrased as "you're adorable, but don't worry your pretty head, I'm so not taking any political advice from you!") Fritz must have been really conscious that everyone expected one or several favourites and/or Mom and/or Wilhelmine to dominate him (which is indeed what you can read in several envoy reports from the 1730s and early 1740), and of course FW had never made any bones about expecting this, so he had a gigantic chip on his shoulder and a lot to prove on this subject - perhaps precisely because, as we've said, there were so many other examples around where that did happen.

From:

selenak

I mean, it was even in That Letter!

Yep. Hence why, wonderful Yuletide presents not withstanding, I don't think Heinrich would have killed Fritz in rl. If he didn't do it after that letter at their Dresden reunion, he just wouldn't. Mind you, Heinrich isn't immune to using the Evil Advisors excuse himself, only he phrases it a bit differently, when saying in old age that Kaphengst went to the dogs because of all the bad company.

Incidentally, re: his choleric temper - looking up Fritz quotes for the shipping manifesto(s), I was reminded again that as late as 1739, FW has a fall back into full "wretched son!" mode, and Wilhelmine evidently asked Fritz via letter what was up with rumors FW would try to change the succession somehow after all, for he writes her this about AW (not useable for the manifesto, just interesting and a bit heartbreaking by itself):

The news you are being told about my brother is not at all founded; it is a city noise, which owes its birth to the empty head of our coffee politicians. Reconciliation with England may have given rise to it; imagination invented the rest. My brother has the best character in the world, he has an excellent heart, a just mind, feelings of honor and is full of humanity; he has the will to do well, which gives me a lot of hope for him. His face conceals nothing, his eyes can not only spell; his manners are ingenuous rather than polite, and in all his maintenance there is a certain je ne sais quoi of embarrassment which does not warn in his favor, but which does not deceive those who prefer the solidity of merit to a brilliant facade. I love him very much, and I can only praise myself for the friendship and attachment he has for me. He does me all the little services he can do, and shows me on all occasions the feelings that are only found in real friends. You can count on what I write to you about him; I write without prevention and without envy what all those who know him particularly will have noticed in him.

I don't think he's lying, either subconsciously or consciously; the slightly patronizing fondness and faith in AW keeping faith with him (despite being Dad's fave) is very real. That's another part of the tragedy. At the same time, I also think AW having been FW's fave was eating at him, but it was buried so deeply it didn't erupt until much, much later.

This... makes so much sense! This is one of the things I love about you talking about history, btw, that you put together bits and pieces that I had some cultural awareness of (like, I definitely had some conceptions of English monarchs that fit into that picture, haha!) but wasn't able to synthesize like you can.

It has to be said that the Brits aren't the only case where the (surviving) monarchies had to reinvent themselves as embodying admirable middle class virtues in family life and marital fidelity.

(FW: I was a pioneer and tried to do this a century earlier!)

And of course there had been British monarchs who had a good relationship with their spouse before. But Charles I. after the death of Buckingham being a model husband to Henrietta Maria and seeing far more of their children than other royal fathers did did not work in his favour with the public, to put it mildly, given just about every other historical circumstance at that time. Victoria coming as a pretty young woman after a never seen anymore mad old King, his elderly increasingly heavy wannabe libertine son, and then the other actual libertine elderly son was refreshing per se, and while Albert was at first distrusted (another German! At this point the Brits really must have wondered whether their monarch would ever marry anyone local again), he won people over by all the social interest he showed, and of course he was young and good looking as well. And as long as the children were children and no one knew more about them than the first family daguerotypes getting into print, it really must have looked like they were a family right of the end (not the beginning!) of a Dickens novel.

It's not that the royals weren't venerated in earlier centuries when they had actual power. But I dare say even before Henry VIII started to make everyone pay for his lack of a legitimate son, nobody would have looked at him, or expected him to be, a role model in terms of marital fidelity or family life. He was supposed to be a good Father To His People and so forth, and yes, a good Christian, but those are different expectations.

BTW, I have just gotten to the point in the podcast where the Schleswig-Holstein question has been brought up for the first time! The podcaster asserts that he will make it so I can understand it without going mad. WE SHALL SEE.

LOL, okay. When I heard that, I also thought: Challenge accepted! :) I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Salians and many a road leading to Canossa.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I suspect it's related to something you said recently:

Incidentally, this quote from Primi Visconti - that I was twenty five years old already and had a beard. He replied that Frenchmen of taste neither were bothered by the age nor the beard - tells you something about Visconti (a straight man) expecting gay men to be only interested in teenage boys and young beardless men in their early 20s, while the Marquis de La Valliere evidently finds men of all ages attractive.

Not that Blanning is unwilling to let Fritz have relationships with men his own age, like Algarotti, but I suspect the pederastic narrative is in the back of his, and other people's, minds.

I must admit I really hope he didn't get too handsy with a 15 years old entirely dependent on the all powerful King

Same!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Now, German wiki says Ove Jorgensen (easier to spell these names than what follows) was "kleinwüchsig", i.e. had dwarfism (if that's the current English expression for it?), and I wonder whether John Brown with his instincts for melodrama conflated him and Frederik the Prince into one character?

Maybe? I will say the novelist has Guldberg present, with his dwarfism, along with deformed!Frederik. And has Christian VII about the same height as Guldberg and the two of them looking like "two peculiar dwarfs." The novel gives the source as Ambassador Keith's (this is the same Ambassador Keith we've seen in Vienna and St. Petersburg) envoy report, but it's unclear to me whether this is a real envoy report or a fictional envoy report.

(It's not like Frederik V. gave him any more attention than Christian had received, presumably, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been as emotionally dependent on Ove Jorgensen as Dad had been on Moltke.)

Right? The Danish royal family is *so* messed up.

Is the novel good otherwise?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You're asking someone who struggles to read fiction. I'm struggling with this one too, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the book itself. If you're interested, it's probably worth a look at the sample to see what you think. Our tastes are very different.

At a guess, Fritz didn't go to bed with it but put it on when receiving strangers, not least because it's now the 1770s, i.e. his natural hair is thin, and it's evening, so he might already have put his wig away, but is conscious enough of his appearance to not want a stranger - especially one working for the Hannover cousins - to see him without his wig and with sparse hair.

Ahh, that makes sense. Headcanon accepted!

How did that Keysleringk quote again? (I.e. the one that's paraphrased as "you're adorable, but don't worry your pretty head, I'm so not taking any political advice from you!")

My dear Keyserlingk! You are an awfully nice man, you have much wit and education, you sing and joke most charmingly, and you're an honest fellow, but your advice is that of a fool.

Can you imagine history if Keyserlingk *had* been the de facto monarch?

From:

selenak

MT: I can. It is a most pleasing idea.

Heinrich: Damn, I have a moral dilemma. On the one hand, my brothers and I are bound to have had a happier life with King Caesarion. To just think, I could have done the Grand Tour as a young man! Maybe studied! And no bloody marriage. At all. But. Prussia would not have become a superpower. Which isn't to say I would ever admit this could only have happened under Fritz! But it certainly wouldn't have happened with Keyserlingk in charge. I am not sure I could condone that. Hm. Maybe after some fun years, I would have overthrown him for the greater good?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Prussia would not have become a superpower. Which isn't to say I would ever admit this could only have happened under Fritz!

Hahaha, you keep telling yourself that, Heinrich. :D

Maybe after some fun years, I would have overthrown him for the greater good?

Wow! Do you think he would have?

I have to admit, I have some difficulty imagining this Fritz: it seems like a Fritz in name only. Like, an AU where our Fritz died shortly after birth but one of his older brothers named Friedrich lived.

Edited Date: 2023-03-05 07:19 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

That's very interesting about the Grimms, thank you!

I mean, this is Lehndorff, if he either likes someone or finds them interesting or is upset about them, you get either ravings or rantings or detailed pen portraits or both... but here, not a word about what he thinks of famous Dr. Zimmermann from Hannover. Hmmmmm.

Heeee! This is why Lehndorff is so great :D

Also: what is it with Fritz first meeting people lying in bed?

HA!

From:

cahn

MT: I can. It is a most pleasing idea.

LOL!

Which isn't to say I would ever admit this could only have happened under Fritz!

:D Aw, Heinrich.

Maybe after some fun years, I would have overthrown him for the greater good?

I also want to know if you think he would have!

From:

cahn

:D You guys are so fast!

I don't have really any comments yet, but in terms of tropes,

-Fritz/Fredersdorf: there must be some sort of "supercompetent lieutenant" trope, right?

-Fritz/Voltaire: and surely some sort of "mutual snark" trope? (Or is that covered by "vitriolic best buds"? I feel like it isn't quite the same, though?)

-Fritz/&Wilhelmine: I feel like there needs to be some sort of "subtextual incest" trope?? :)

From:

cahn

If he didn't do it after that letter at their Dresden reunion, he just wouldn't.

Ha. So, what about the AU where he did it then...? :)

It has to be said that the Brits aren't the only case where the (surviving) monarchies had to reinvent themselves as embodying admirable middle class virtues in family life and marital fidelity.

Ha! I didn't actually think so, but the British monarchs are the ones I know more about :)

And as long as the children were children and no one knew more about them than the first family daguerotypes getting into print, it really must have looked like they were a family right of the end (not the beginning!) of a Dickens novel.

Lol, I like your way with words! :D

But I dare say even before Henry VIII started to make everyone pay for his lack of a legitimate son, nobody would have looked at him, or expected him to be, a role model in terms of marital fidelity or family life.

This picture is just making me laugh.

Our car with the good audio finally got fixed so I am hoping to be able to retain a bit more from the podcast! But we'll see about that too -- sometimes I get really distracted. I should probably take Mildred's partner's advice and do it while crocheting (which makes it easier for me to hold my attention), but I just don't have the time right now.

From:

selenak

Do I think I would have? No, for a reason commenting Heinrich hasn't considered. Leaving aside we would need an AU Fritz for this scenario who has none of rl Fritz' drive and ambition and paranoia and solves his issues with Dad the way Danish Frederik V. did, by clinging to a kinder father figure, there's also the question of Keysleringk's ambition. You just don't stay PM (in fact if not in word) if you don't have it. Moltke might have been a really nice guy, but all claims to the contrary must have wanted that top job badly enough to last in it till Frederik's death. Nothing I've ever read of good old Caesarion has given me the impression he had that ambition or focus. So if a maturing Heinrich had wanted more political involvement for himself, I think King Keyserlingk, who doesn't have real Fritz' opinion about what Princes of the Blood are and aren't allowed to do, would have given it to him, all the more so because after some years he must have been thoroughly exhausted. No overthrowing necessary. Heinrich wants to become, say, minister of foreign affairs? Here you go! Some years later, Heinrich wants to be de facto regent? Absolutely, I finally have time to have fun again! (And that's assuming no one else shows up to become PM while Heinrich is still a teenager.

But as you say: I cannot imagine any version of Fritz going for such an arrangement. He'd have to bodyswap with Frederik V.

Fritz in Denmark: Sorry, Moltke. You seem nice, but seeing as I'm not interested in brothel visits and drinking myself unconscious anymore, there's no reason for you to do my job. On the other hand, prepare for some more verbal abuse if I get under much pressure. Without apology letters. Now, can we reconsider the Schleswig-Holstein question, and what's the state of our army regarding an invasion?

Frederik in Potsdam: Mein lieber Keysleringk, teuerstes Herz! Ich will Ihm keinen Kummer mehr bereiten...

From:

selenak

Fredersdorf: well, tv tropes has Hypercompetent Sidekick, but the entry claims it comes with not very competent boss, which isn't the case, and "Chessmaster Sidekick" (with Bismarck named as a rl example) does not feel right, either.

Fritz/Voltaire: How about adding "Snark-to-Snark Combat"?

Fritz/& Wilhelmine: I was wavering on whether to add "if not for his gayness and her low sex drive, might have ended up as embodying "Incest Subtext" trope.

(Well, there's always Wilhelmine-as-Folichon proposing to Fritz-as-Biche, and Biche-Fritz accepting...)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Moltke might have been a really nice guy, but all claims to the contrary must have wanted that top job badly enough to last in it till Frederik's death. Nothing I've ever read of good old Caesarion has given me the impression he had that ambition or focus.

Yeah, this makes far more sense than Heinrich conspiring to overthrow him. Why kill a fly with a cannonball?

Like, an AU where our Fritz died shortly after birth but one of his older brothers named Friedrich lived.

I cannot imagine any version of Fritz going for such an arrangement. He'd have to bodyswap with Frederik V.

Or that!

On the other hand, prepare for some more verbal abuse if I get under much pressure. Without apology letters.

Hahaha, this is reminding me of when I was giving my wife the breaking news about the apology letters and how disappointed I was. "At least Frederick the Great didn't apologize constantly! I'm not saying my faves are more ethical, but they're way more interesting." :P

Frederik in Potsdam: Mein lieber Keysleringk, teuerstes Herz! Ich will Ihm keinen Kummer mehr bereiten...

I laughed so hard, actually out loud at this one. Nobody would know what hit them if these two bodyswapped! Everyone would be WTFing so much.

Now, can we reconsider the Schleswig-Holstein question, and what's the state of our army regarding an invasion?

So, hilariously, apparently Frederik of Denmark admired Friedrich of Prussia (and Karl XII of Sweden), and wanted Denmark to adopt a more militaristic approach, but Moltke and Bernstorff were like "NO." So that part wouldn't be surprising at first...and then it would be very, VERY surprising.

From:

selenak

Nobody would know what hit them if these two bodyswapped! Everyone would be WTFing so much.

Federsdorf: I wouldn't, not for long. Confronted with a Fritz who keeps apologizing after lashing out, drinks like a fish and tells me I need to pay female prostitutes for letting him beat them up, and ignores Biche, I would immediately conclude we're dealing with an impostor, and convince enough people I'm right so we can arrest this person and force him to reveal what happened to his true Majesty - der einzige König!

Biche: Wuff!

From:

selenak

Listening to both the Byzantium and the Germans podcasts made me conclude that life for child Emperors could go in very different ways in the ninth and tenth century, and Otto III really lucked out with having Theophanu and Adelheid. Because:

Constantine VII "the Purpleborn": remember me, little C? Leo's kid, whom he had to marry four times for to get? My mom Zoe was kicked out of the palace twice when Dad died - there's a heartrendering story of me wandering through the rooms the first time this happened, calling for her -, once by Uncle Alex, who only reigned a year before dying, and then by the Patriarch, whom she managed to subsequently defeat, whereupon she finally became regent. Sadly, things didn't go well for Mom for long, because her general, Leo Phokas, got defeated by the Bulgars, for which the people promptly blamed her. Majorly unfair, I thought, because Leo Phokas was one of the best generals available at the time - btw, keep an eye on the Phokas family, they'll be back - , and it wasn't like she was in the field, but no one asked me. It was just "of course, a WOMAN led us wrong", and the Patriarch organized deposing her as regent. But not by making himself Regent again, oh no. Instead, he got chummy with Admiral Romanos Lekapenos, who became Regent, kicked out Mom, made me appoint him as my Caesar, married by then 13 years old me to his daughter Helena and, you guessed it, became Romanos I., reigning emperor.

I will say this for old Romanos: all previous ursurpers had emperors and other sons of the previous dynasties castrated and/or blinded and put into a monastery. Not him, he went for the marrying me to Helena option instead, thereby starting a new tradition. The next few years were powerless but okay for me, and luckily I liked Helena. But I had the distinct feeling Romanos meant for his oldest son Christopher to succeed him and basically have me fade away in the background. I mean, when Romanos sired a bastard son, he had that kid, Basil by name, castrated, and you usually do that only if you want to disqualify someone from the throne. However, Christopher died in the field. And then it got really interesting for the Macedonian/Lekapanos family. Because Romanos wasn't much into his next two legitimate sons, or at least that's what they thought. So my two brothers-in-law staged a coup of their own, deposing their Dad in the middle of the night, tying him up and sending him to that monastery won the Prince's island where we Bzyantines usually send our deposed Emperors. Well, upon hearing this, the people of Constantinople rioted, but not, note, for Romanos, no, they wanted to make sure I was okay, because they not unreasonably thought I might be next on the fraternal duo's hit list, and I was, if I may say so, pretty popular - the People's Prince. So my brothers-inlaw had to show me alive and waving to the populace before things calmed down a bit. But they were planning to do me in. Luckily, their sister and my wife Helena plus illegitimate brother Basil the eunuch told me all about it, and we got rid of my brothers-in-law, sending them to the same island they had send their Dad Romanos to. Who greeted them upon arrival with: "So nice of you to join your old father, boys! And how wise of you to send me ahead so I'd make sure the monks know how to treat Emperors!"

Anyway, I then had a good reign, crowned my son Romanos II in time as my Co-Emperor, saw him grow up, marry young commoner Theophano the tavern owner's daughter and died content in the knowledge the two were already having kids of their own - young Basil the future II, and another Constantine, and Theophano was pregnant again with Anna her ownly daughter. I mean, what could possibly go wrong at this point, right?

Basil II.: ...yeah. I might have ended up as the longest reigning Roman Emperor ever, East or West, but when Dad died while I was still a toddler, I got a good nice illustration of what letting powerful families get jobs as generals can result in. First there was Nikopheros Phokas, aka "The White Death of the Saracens", aka "The Bringer of Victory". Never lost a battle, major factor in making us Romans a feared factor in the Middle East again. Mom was pretty clear he'd do a Romanos and depose her if she didn't win him around, so she offered him marriage. This was actually somewhat tricky religious wise, because it was a second marriage for them both, and he was my godfather, another Mom thing from a few years back to ensure his loyalty, making him a spiritual relation of ours. Anyway, the Patriarch wasn't the one who struggled with Empress Zoe decades earlier, of course, but he didn't like Empresses any better. Still, in the interest of avoiding civil war, he gave in. Nikopheros Phokas kept winning victories, but he went from everyone's hero to being loathed within four years, on account on putting all the money into the army, including the Church's money, and that made the Patriarch stop liking him right then and there. The first time he got booed at instead of applauded in the capital, he treated it like an occupied city by bringing in his favourite Armenian soldiers and building an extra wall between the palace and the city. Basically, he gave the impression of loathing Constantinople, so Constantinople loathed him right back. And he had also managed to fall out with his nephew John Tsimtsikes over John winning a victory against orders. I mean, Nikopheros Phokas knew what successful generals could do, so you probably couldn't blame him for some paranoia. But John then organized another coup, and killed Nikopheros Phokas, becoming John I Tsimitzikes. Did he do so with Mom's help? I wouldn't know. I will say the story of her leaving the Imperial bedchamber unbolted ignores it wasn't in the Imperial bedchamber Nikopheros was killed, he was killed in the chapel, praying. Anyway, no riot after that one because Nikopheros had lost most people's favor, but the Patriarch said he'd only crown John if John punished those who aided him, and there was to be no marrying Mom. I guess killing a praying guy with your own hands is forgivable as long as you blame a woman for it. So that meant Mom being sent into monastery on an island, and us kids hoping John wouldn't do likewise with us. Which he didn't. He married Constantine's daughter Theodora for greater legitimacy - and incidentally, got her out of a monastery this way, because old Constantine had put all his daughters into one, including the one Judith Tarr named Aspasia - and went on to rule for another decade or so uncontested, winning more military victories but avoiding the mistake of treating civilians with disdain. When he died, I was 17 or so and ready to rock, but did that happen? Nope. Great Uncle Basil Lekapenos - remember him? castrated bastard son of Romanos Lekapenos, served in every administration since? - took over. The only thing he let me do what I wanted to do is calling Mom back from her island nunnery. She died a few years later with us kids next to her. I will say this for Great Uncle Basil - he may have become incredible rich in those years, but he also was the primary patron of every writer and artist of the era. When I eventually managed to depose and banish him in order to rule myself in my mid 20s, literature and art took an according nose dive. In my defense, I had to deal with a civil war, because yeah, during those eight years Great Uncle Basil reigned for me, the two major families, Phokas and Skleros, thought they wanted the throne as well, so it was Bardas time. Meaning Bardas Phokas and Bardas Skleros. First Uncle Basil could use one against the other, but when I got rid of Uncle Basil, they teamed up. Now obviously, neither Nikopoheros nor John had let me anywhere near the army, and Great Uncle Basil didn't, either, so unsurprisingly, despite my later legendary military prowess, my first few battles weren't amazing, which is why rumor has it that the stroke of Luck that had Bardas Phokas die of a heart attack just when he, the far more experienced commander, was riding into battle against me, was really me poisoning him. And by rumor, I mean those scribes paid by the Phokas family who also blamed Mom for just about every imperial death since she married Dad. They'd presumably have blamed her for Bardas Phokas, too, if she hadn't died already. Anyway - after Bardas P. died, Bardas S. gave up and surrendered, and I was finally uncontested ruler. No, I never married or had kids the illegitimate way. As one historian put it, I married my army instead, though without pissing off the populace back home. And I never, ever, allowed any general but me to lead the army to victory.

Henry IV HRE: Lucky you. In fact, lucky both of you. When my Dad died, Mom was in over her head, and then I got kidnapped by my nobles. To be specific, bloody Hanno of Cologne who wanted to be Regent instead. They lured me under pretenses on a ship and made off with me. I tried to foil him by jumping into the Rhine despite not being able to swim, thus proving my stubbornness early on, but the count who jumped after me fished me out of the Rhine and returned me to Hanno. Whose idea of regency was to get even richer and let every noble do what they want. When I celebrated my Schwertleite as a 13 years teenager, I used that sword to go after Hanno, you better believe it, but nooooo, Mom held me back. The nobles around us looked aghast. And then they wouldn't grant me a divorce two years later. I will say that in retrospect, I'm glad Bertha and I stuck it out, and not just because she came with me to Canossa, but good lord, did I ever dislike most of my nobles. And vice versa. As for your Patriarchs, they sound like jerks, sure, but compared with HILDEBRAND FALSE MONK AND NOT POPE - count yourself lucky, is what I'm saying.

From:

cahn

So, hilariously, apparently Frederik of Denmark admired Friedrich of Prussia (and Karl XII of Sweden), and wanted Denmark to adopt a more militaristic approach, but Moltke and Bernstorff were like "NO." So that part wouldn't be surprising at first...and then it would be very, VERY surprising.

Heeeeee!