cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

well, that doesn't look good in terms of reliability. Otoh, it's a very plausible nickname for any all powerful favourite to be called, so I wouldn't write it off yet.

I haven't written it off! I'm just agnostic until I find a source that predates 1818.

Speaking of things that might go back to this book, I was reading a novel called The Royal Physician's Visit (a prize-winning novel on Struensee written in Swedish and translated into numerous other languages--I am reading it in English), and it had this description of Juliana Maria's son Frederik:

Her only son, the Crown Prince, the King’s half-brother, was physically deformed, his head pointed and twisted sideways; he was regarded as easily led by those who were kind, as hopelessly moronic by others.

That came as a surprise to me, since neither Barz nor anyone else I'd read had mentioned it, so I checked Wikipedia. Nothing. [ETA: well, that his mother had a lot of influence on him, but there's a long way from that to "hopelessly moronic"!]

So I thought, "Well, interesting use of artistic license for a novel."

Now I'm thinking it goes back to John Brown! I will be interested to see if we can trace any sources for Brown.

Thank you for the rundown on the history of the Brothers Grimm, they don't teach you that in historical linguistics programs!

Not that this stops a crush, of course. See also lots and lots and lots of Germans & Der Einzige König.

And one lone (einzige? :P) Arizonan in 1998! ;)

I mean, this is Lehndorff, if he either likes someone or finds them interesting or is upset about them, you get either ravings or rantings or detailed pen portraits or both

Lol, you can tell Lehndorff has no opinion when the episode is relegated to volume 3.

Also: what is it with Fritz first meeting people lying in bed?

Hahahaha! That is interesting about him not wearing a nightcap and slippers, though. So noted for fanfic!

...Given the size and shape of hats in the period, though, how did one wear a tricorn lying down and how comfortable was it? The boots surprise me less, that sounds very Fritzian.

Letters to Moltke: what you said, plus "Nie mahlen wieder tun" (niemals wieder tun in modern German) really does sound like a child promising never to be naughty again

Exactly what I was thinking, and so does "Ich bitte Jhm um Vergebung, dass ich heute nicht artich gewesen bin"! ("I beg him for forgiveness that I wasn't well-behaved/I was naughty today.") Stop me if I'm wrong, but "artig" is a word I've seen used to tell kids and dogs to be good! In fact, I was so surprised by that phrasing that I originally thought maybe it was from the Crown Prince years, when Frederik was 15 or something, but no, it's signed "Friderich R," meaning he was at least in his mid 20s. And yet the sentence before the signature is "vorbleibe mit aller aufrichtiegen Hochachtung und kindlicher Liebe sein getreuer Freünd." ("I remain with all sincere respect and childish/childlike love his faithful friend.") Emphasis mine.

This dynamic is...interesting. I really feel like there's a political power differential in one direction and a very strong emotional power differential in the other direction. Frederik obviously never did mature out of childhood/teenagehood.

Now, granted, Fritz did write that "My dear Suhm, do not forget the tenderness which you owe to an infant whom you have not yet weaned in the school of philosophy" letter that always makes me laugh, but while there's an element of the 18th century over-the-top-ness at work here, I've read both sets of letters pretty closely and there's a real difference. As reflected in the fact that there was never going to be a König Suhm even if he'd lived. Der Einzige König!

If Moltke was König Moltke, he put up with a lot for that Kingdom...

He earned it. (Which is not to say I don't suspect he reinforced the dynamic both consciously and unconsciously, but knowledge of psychology was thin on the ground (is still pretty thin on the ground), and Moltke seems to have avoided at least some of the worst mistakes other parental figures have made. More on which in my upcoming Duke of Parma write-up (maybe this weekend, I've reread and made notes, just need to turn them into paragraphs).)

Edited Date: 2023-03-04 06:10 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

That came as a surprise to me, since neither Barz nor anyone else I'd read had mentioned it, so I checked Wikipedia. Nothing. [ETA: well, that his mother had a lot of influence on him, but there's a long way from that to "hopelessly moronic"!]

Indeed. I see wiki says that this Frederik was another case of having a hugely influential teacher (in addition to Mom) who then becomes de facto PM (without having that exact title, Ove Jørgensen Høegh-Guldberg. Now, German wiki says Ove Jorgensen (easier to spell these names than what follows) was "kleinwüchsig", i.e. had dwarfism (if that's the current English expression for it?), and I wonder whether John Brown with his instincts for melodrama conflated him and Frederik the Prince into one character? Either way, given this Frederik was 18 when Struensee died, I'm not surprised that Mom and Ove Jorgensen (another Christian Wolff fan, btw! Though otherwise very much Germans Out! Denmark for the Danish! minded, it seems) were doing the actual governing until getting deposed by CM's son. Mind you, after generations of emotional instability, of course Frederik the never King might have been affected as well, just not as blatantly as brother Christian. (It's not like Frederik V. gave him any more attention than Christian had received, presumably, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been as emotionally dependent on Ove Jorgensen as Dad had been on Moltke.)

BTW, I'm surprised Brown missed out on the chance of having Evilest Queen Juliana carry on an affair with Evil Small Person And Surely True Father Of Her Kid, though not with he made the kid and Ove Jorgensen into one character, I guess.

Is the novel good otherwise?

Hahahaha! That is interesting about him not wearing a nightcap and slippers, though. So noted for fanfic!

Just as a point of comparison, a reminder of what Schöning, SECOND Chamber Hussar, had to say, who as opposed to Lehndorff reports as an eye witness (at least I assume Lehndorff was never invited into the bedchamber for a chat himself, he'd have reported it, but of course he knew Fritz' staff and had to coordinate events with EC occasionally):

During the months of November, December, January and February, the King got to bed between nine and ten pm, and rose between five and six am. During this time, no one was with him, nor did light burn in his bedroom; in the antechambre, two common footmen were keeping watch. He was awoken in the morning in the exact minute he had ordered in the previous evening, and fifteen minutes before that, the fireplace in his bedroom was lighted. Depending on circumstances, he either rose immediately or slept a quarter of an hour, half an hour, sometimes even an hour longer. He dressed himself while in bed with stockings, trousers and boots, the rest he put on while standing in front of the fire in the fireplace. For this was lighted in summer and winter time regardless; for the King sweated so strongly that his nightdress and his sheets had to get dried at the fireplace every time. As soon as he'd gotten dressed, he sat down to read from the intake of arriving letters those he was most interested in while his hairtail was combed; the rest, he sent for summarizing and excerpting to the cabinet secretary. After having read all and put it next to himself on a small table, he rose, washed and put his wig and the hat on him which he always wore, except when sitting at a table or when talking to persons of rank, and went to the first adjoining room to accept the report of the AD of the first bataillon there, or to give him some commands regarding the military.

So that's very similar, but note the hat isn't mentioned. At a guess, Fritz didn't go to bed with it but put it on when receiving strangers, not least because it's now the 1770s, i.e. his natural hair is thin, and it's evening, so he might already have put his wig away, but is conscious enough of his appearance to not want a stranger - especially one working for the Hannover cousins - to see him without his wig and with sparse hair.

As reflected in the fact that there was never going to be a König Suhm even if he'd lived. Der Einzige König!

No kidding. How did that Keysleringk quote again? (I.e. the one that's paraphrased as "you're adorable, but don't worry your pretty head, I'm so not taking any political advice from you!") Fritz must have been really conscious that everyone expected one or several favourites and/or Mom and/or Wilhelmine to dominate him (which is indeed what you can read in several envoy reports from the 1730s and early 1740), and of course FW had never made any bones about expecting this, so he had a gigantic chip on his shoulder and a lot to prove on this subject - perhaps precisely because, as we've said, there were so many other examples around where that did happen.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Now, German wiki says Ove Jorgensen (easier to spell these names than what follows) was "kleinwüchsig", i.e. had dwarfism (if that's the current English expression for it?), and I wonder whether John Brown with his instincts for melodrama conflated him and Frederik the Prince into one character?

Maybe? I will say the novelist has Guldberg present, with his dwarfism, along with deformed!Frederik. And has Christian VII about the same height as Guldberg and the two of them looking like "two peculiar dwarfs." The novel gives the source as Ambassador Keith's (this is the same Ambassador Keith we've seen in Vienna and St. Petersburg) envoy report, but it's unclear to me whether this is a real envoy report or a fictional envoy report.

(It's not like Frederik V. gave him any more attention than Christian had received, presumably, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been as emotionally dependent on Ove Jorgensen as Dad had been on Moltke.)

Right? The Danish royal family is *so* messed up.

Is the novel good otherwise?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You're asking someone who struggles to read fiction. I'm struggling with this one too, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the book itself. If you're interested, it's probably worth a look at the sample to see what you think. Our tastes are very different.

At a guess, Fritz didn't go to bed with it but put it on when receiving strangers, not least because it's now the 1770s, i.e. his natural hair is thin, and it's evening, so he might already have put his wig away, but is conscious enough of his appearance to not want a stranger - especially one working for the Hannover cousins - to see him without his wig and with sparse hair.

Ahh, that makes sense. Headcanon accepted!

How did that Keysleringk quote again? (I.e. the one that's paraphrased as "you're adorable, but don't worry your pretty head, I'm so not taking any political advice from you!")

My dear Keyserlingk! You are an awfully nice man, you have much wit and education, you sing and joke most charmingly, and you're an honest fellow, but your advice is that of a fool.

Can you imagine history if Keyserlingk *had* been the de facto monarch?

From:

selenak

MT: I can. It is a most pleasing idea.

Heinrich: Damn, I have a moral dilemma. On the one hand, my brothers and I are bound to have had a happier life with King Caesarion. To just think, I could have done the Grand Tour as a young man! Maybe studied! And no bloody marriage. At all. But. Prussia would not have become a superpower. Which isn't to say I would ever admit this could only have happened under Fritz! But it certainly wouldn't have happened with Keyserlingk in charge. I am not sure I could condone that. Hm. Maybe after some fun years, I would have overthrown him for the greater good?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Prussia would not have become a superpower. Which isn't to say I would ever admit this could only have happened under Fritz!

Hahaha, you keep telling yourself that, Heinrich. :D

Maybe after some fun years, I would have overthrown him for the greater good?

Wow! Do you think he would have?

I have to admit, I have some difficulty imagining this Fritz: it seems like a Fritz in name only. Like, an AU where our Fritz died shortly after birth but one of his older brothers named Friedrich lived.

Edited Date: 2023-03-05 07:19 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Do I think I would have? No, for a reason commenting Heinrich hasn't considered. Leaving aside we would need an AU Fritz for this scenario who has none of rl Fritz' drive and ambition and paranoia and solves his issues with Dad the way Danish Frederik V. did, by clinging to a kinder father figure, there's also the question of Keysleringk's ambition. You just don't stay PM (in fact if not in word) if you don't have it. Moltke might have been a really nice guy, but all claims to the contrary must have wanted that top job badly enough to last in it till Frederik's death. Nothing I've ever read of good old Caesarion has given me the impression he had that ambition or focus. So if a maturing Heinrich had wanted more political involvement for himself, I think King Keyserlingk, who doesn't have real Fritz' opinion about what Princes of the Blood are and aren't allowed to do, would have given it to him, all the more so because after some years he must have been thoroughly exhausted. No overthrowing necessary. Heinrich wants to become, say, minister of foreign affairs? Here you go! Some years later, Heinrich wants to be de facto regent? Absolutely, I finally have time to have fun again! (And that's assuming no one else shows up to become PM while Heinrich is still a teenager.

But as you say: I cannot imagine any version of Fritz going for such an arrangement. He'd have to bodyswap with Frederik V.

Fritz in Denmark: Sorry, Moltke. You seem nice, but seeing as I'm not interested in brothel visits and drinking myself unconscious anymore, there's no reason for you to do my job. On the other hand, prepare for some more verbal abuse if I get under much pressure. Without apology letters. Now, can we reconsider the Schleswig-Holstein question, and what's the state of our army regarding an invasion?

Frederik in Potsdam: Mein lieber Keysleringk, teuerstes Herz! Ich will Ihm keinen Kummer mehr bereiten...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Moltke might have been a really nice guy, but all claims to the contrary must have wanted that top job badly enough to last in it till Frederik's death. Nothing I've ever read of good old Caesarion has given me the impression he had that ambition or focus.

Yeah, this makes far more sense than Heinrich conspiring to overthrow him. Why kill a fly with a cannonball?

Like, an AU where our Fritz died shortly after birth but one of his older brothers named Friedrich lived.

I cannot imagine any version of Fritz going for such an arrangement. He'd have to bodyswap with Frederik V.

Or that!

On the other hand, prepare for some more verbal abuse if I get under much pressure. Without apology letters.

Hahaha, this is reminding me of when I was giving my wife the breaking news about the apology letters and how disappointed I was. "At least Frederick the Great didn't apologize constantly! I'm not saying my faves are more ethical, but they're way more interesting." :P

Frederik in Potsdam: Mein lieber Keysleringk, teuerstes Herz! Ich will Ihm keinen Kummer mehr bereiten...

I laughed so hard, actually out loud at this one. Nobody would know what hit them if these two bodyswapped! Everyone would be WTFing so much.

Now, can we reconsider the Schleswig-Holstein question, and what's the state of our army regarding an invasion?

So, hilariously, apparently Frederik of Denmark admired Friedrich of Prussia (and Karl XII of Sweden), and wanted Denmark to adopt a more militaristic approach, but Moltke and Bernstorff were like "NO." So that part wouldn't be surprising at first...and then it would be very, VERY surprising.

From:

selenak

Nobody would know what hit them if these two bodyswapped! Everyone would be WTFing so much.

Federsdorf: I wouldn't, not for long. Confronted with a Fritz who keeps apologizing after lashing out, drinks like a fish and tells me I need to pay female prostitutes for letting him beat them up, and ignores Biche, I would immediately conclude we're dealing with an impostor, and convince enough people I'm right so we can arrest this person and force him to reveal what happened to his true Majesty - der einzige König!

Biche: Wuff!

From:

cahn

I am totally imagining Fredersdorf enlisting Saint-Germain ~~again~~!

Biche: Wuff!

Aw! And, hee!

From:

selenak

Saint-Germain: third time is the charm!

Biche: I can't understand why in ye olden days, no one wrote a children's novel "The Adventures of Biche" which had her dognapped in the 2nd Silesian War, and added some adventures that had her saving Fritz, and of course the love affair with Folichon. :) (Though she must have cheated on him, given AW got to be godfather to her pups with Not!Folichon.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Saint-Germain: third time is the charm!

It would be interesting if there were multiple bodyswaps in the same story, because every time St. Germain tries to change something, something else goes wrong. "Whoops, wrong Friedrich." "Whoops, other self." Etc. Sort of like what happened in Prussian Doll (or the "nameless slave" in JS&MN), but with bodyswapping.

Admittedly, that would be a much more ambitious and harder story to write, just because of the different settings and different casts of characters.

Biche: I can't understand why in ye olden days, no one wrote a children's novel "The Adventures of Biche" which had her dognapped in the 2nd Silesian War

Aww, somebody should do that! Would read!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This would definitely be one of the shortest-lived bodyswaps! (Fritz and Heinrich could impersonate each other a good long time, I imagine.)

Chronologically, though, it would be hard to get this exact scenario: Fritz becomes king in 1740 and invades Silesia almost immediately, Keyserlingk dies in 1745, Frederik V becomes king in 1746.

So either we have to fudge some dates, or else Fritz is going to be a crown prince with a Pietist father for 6 more years, or Frederik's going to land in a country that already has Silesia and no Keyserlingk.

I vote we kill Christian VI off in 1740. What's one more dead monarch that year, anyway?

Biche: Wuff!

Aww, Biche just wants her human back!

From:

cahn

So, hilariously, apparently Frederik of Denmark admired Friedrich of Prussia (and Karl XII of Sweden), and wanted Denmark to adopt a more militaristic approach, but Moltke and Bernstorff were like "NO." So that part wouldn't be surprising at first...and then it would be very, VERY surprising.

Heeeeee!

From:

cahn

MT: I can. It is a most pleasing idea.

LOL!

Which isn't to say I would ever admit this could only have happened under Fritz!

:D Aw, Heinrich.

Maybe after some fun years, I would have overthrown him for the greater good?

I also want to know if you think he would have!