cahn

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

selenak

Listening to both the Byzantium and the Germans podcasts made me conclude that life for child Emperors could go in very different ways in the ninth and tenth century, and Otto III really lucked out with having Theophanu and Adelheid. Because:

Constantine VII "the Purpleborn": remember me, little C? Leo's kid, whom he had to marry four times for to get? My mom Zoe was kicked out of the palace twice when Dad died - there's a heartrendering story of me wandering through the rooms the first time this happened, calling for her -, once by Uncle Alex, who only reigned a year before dying, and then by the Patriarch, whom she managed to subsequently defeat, whereupon she finally became regent. Sadly, things didn't go well for Mom for long, because her general, Leo Phokas, got defeated by the Bulgars, for which the people promptly blamed her. Majorly unfair, I thought, because Leo Phokas was one of the best generals available at the time - btw, keep an eye on the Phokas family, they'll be back - , and it wasn't like she was in the field, but no one asked me. It was just "of course, a WOMAN led us wrong", and the Patriarch organized deposing her as regent. But not by making himself Regent again, oh no. Instead, he got chummy with Admiral Romanos Lekapenos, who became Regent, kicked out Mom, made me appoint him as my Caesar, married by then 13 years old me to his daughter Helena and, you guessed it, became Romanos I., reigning emperor.

I will say this for old Romanos: all previous ursurpers had emperors and other sons of the previous dynasties castrated and/or blinded and put into a monastery. Not him, he went for the marrying me to Helena option instead, thereby starting a new tradition. The next few years were powerless but okay for me, and luckily I liked Helena. But I had the distinct feeling Romanos meant for his oldest son Christopher to succeed him and basically have me fade away in the background. I mean, when Romanos sired a bastard son, he had that kid, Basil by name, castrated, and you usually do that only if you want to disqualify someone from the throne. However, Christopher died in the field. And then it got really interesting for the Macedonian/Lekapanos family. Because Romanos wasn't much into his next two legitimate sons, or at least that's what they thought. So my two brothers-in-law staged a coup of their own, deposing their Dad in the middle of the night, tying him up and sending him to that monastery won the Prince's island where we Bzyantines usually send our deposed Emperors. Well, upon hearing this, the people of Constantinople rioted, but not, note, for Romanos, no, they wanted to make sure I was okay, because they not unreasonably thought I might be next on the fraternal duo's hit list, and I was, if I may say so, pretty popular - the People's Prince. So my brothers-inlaw had to show me alive and waving to the populace before things calmed down a bit. But they were planning to do me in. Luckily, their sister and my wife Helena plus illegitimate brother Basil the eunuch told me all about it, and we got rid of my brothers-in-law, sending them to the same island they had send their Dad Romanos to. Who greeted them upon arrival with: "So nice of you to join your old father, boys! And how wise of you to send me ahead so I'd make sure the monks know how to treat Emperors!"

Anyway, I then had a good reign, crowned my son Romanos II in time as my Co-Emperor, saw him grow up, marry young commoner Theophano the tavern owner's daughter and died content in the knowledge the two were already having kids of their own - young Basil the future II, and another Constantine, and Theophano was pregnant again with Anna her ownly daughter. I mean, what could possibly go wrong at this point, right?

Basil II.: ...yeah. I might have ended up as the longest reigning Roman Emperor ever, East or West, but when Dad died while I was still a toddler, I got a good nice illustration of what letting powerful families get jobs as generals can result in. First there was Nikopheros Phokas, aka "The White Death of the Saracens", aka "The Bringer of Victory". Never lost a battle, major factor in making us Romans a feared factor in the Middle East again. Mom was pretty clear he'd do a Romanos and depose her if she didn't win him around, so she offered him marriage. This was actually somewhat tricky religious wise, because it was a second marriage for them both, and he was my godfather, another Mom thing from a few years back to ensure his loyalty, making him a spiritual relation of ours. Anyway, the Patriarch wasn't the one who struggled with Empress Zoe decades earlier, of course, but he didn't like Empresses any better. Still, in the interest of avoiding civil war, he gave in. Nikopheros Phokas kept winning victories, but he went from everyone's hero to being loathed within four years, on account on putting all the money into the army, including the Church's money, and that made the Patriarch stop liking him right then and there. The first time he got booed at instead of applauded in the capital, he treated it like an occupied city by bringing in his favourite Armenian soldiers and building an extra wall between the palace and the city. Basically, he gave the impression of loathing Constantinople, so Constantinople loathed him right back. And he had also managed to fall out with his nephew John Tsimtsikes over John winning a victory against orders. I mean, Nikopheros Phokas knew what successful generals could do, so you probably couldn't blame him for some paranoia. But John then organized another coup, and killed Nikopheros Phokas, becoming John I Tsimitzikes. Did he do so with Mom's help? I wouldn't know. I will say the story of her leaving the Imperial bedchamber unbolted ignores it wasn't in the Imperial bedchamber Nikopheros was killed, he was killed in the chapel, praying. Anyway, no riot after that one because Nikopheros had lost most people's favor, but the Patriarch said he'd only crown John if John punished those who aided him, and there was to be no marrying Mom. I guess killing a praying guy with your own hands is forgivable as long as you blame a woman for it. So that meant Mom being sent into monastery on an island, and us kids hoping John wouldn't do likewise with us. Which he didn't. He married Constantine's daughter Theodora for greater legitimacy - and incidentally, got her out of a monastery this way, because old Constantine had put all his daughters into one, including the one Judith Tarr named Aspasia - and went on to rule for another decade or so uncontested, winning more military victories but avoiding the mistake of treating civilians with disdain. When he died, I was 17 or so and ready to rock, but did that happen? Nope. Great Uncle Basil Lekapenos - remember him? castrated bastard son of Romanos Lekapenos, served in every administration since? - took over. The only thing he let me do what I wanted to do is calling Mom back from her island nunnery. She died a few years later with us kids next to her. I will say this for Great Uncle Basil - he may have become incredible rich in those years, but he also was the primary patron of every writer and artist of the era. When I eventually managed to depose and banish him in order to rule myself in my mid 20s, literature and art took an according nose dive. In my defense, I had to deal with a civil war, because yeah, during those eight years Great Uncle Basil reigned for me, the two major families, Phokas and Skleros, thought they wanted the throne as well, so it was Bardas time. Meaning Bardas Phokas and Bardas Skleros. First Uncle Basil could use one against the other, but when I got rid of Uncle Basil, they teamed up. Now obviously, neither Nikopoheros nor John had let me anywhere near the army, and Great Uncle Basil didn't, either, so unsurprisingly, despite my later legendary military prowess, my first few battles weren't amazing, which is why rumor has it that the stroke of Luck that had Bardas Phokas die of a heart attack just when he, the far more experienced commander, was riding into battle against me, was really me poisoning him. And by rumor, I mean those scribes paid by the Phokas family who also blamed Mom for just about every imperial death since she married Dad. They'd presumably have blamed her for Bardas Phokas, too, if she hadn't died already. Anyway - after Bardas P. died, Bardas S. gave up and surrendered, and I was finally uncontested ruler. No, I never married or had kids the illegitimate way. As one historian put it, I married my army instead, though without pissing off the populace back home. And I never, ever, allowed any general but me to lead the army to victory.

Henry IV HRE: Lucky you. In fact, lucky both of you. When my Dad died, Mom was in over her head, and then I got kidnapped by my nobles. To be specific, bloody Hanno of Cologne who wanted to be Regent instead. They lured me under pretenses on a ship and made off with me. I tried to foil him by jumping into the Rhine despite not being able to swim, thus proving my stubbornness early on, but the count who jumped after me fished me out of the Rhine and returned me to Hanno. Whose idea of regency was to get even richer and let every noble do what they want. When I celebrated my Schwertleite as a 13 years teenager, I used that sword to go after Hanno, you better believe it, but nooooo, Mom held me back. The nobles around us looked aghast. And then they wouldn't grant me a divorce two years later. I will say that in retrospect, I'm glad Bertha and I stuck it out, and not just because she came with me to Canossa, but good lord, did I ever dislike most of my nobles. And vice versa. As for your Patriarchs, they sound like jerks, sure, but compared with HILDEBRAND FALSE MONK AND NOT POPE - count yourself lucky, is what I'm saying.

From:

cahn

Oof!

Constantine VII "the Purpleborn": remember me, little C? Leo's kid, whom he had to marry four times for to get?

I do now! Thanks for the connections here :D

My mom Zoe was kicked out of the palace twice when Dad died - there's a heartrendering story of me wandering through the rooms the first time this happened, calling for her -

Aw, poor kid :(

ell, upon hearing this, the people of Constantinople rioted, but not, note, for Romanos, no, they wanted to make sure I was okay, because they not unreasonably thought I might be next on the fraternal duo's hit list, and I was, if I may say so, pretty popular - the People's Prince.

This is actually really sweet!

But they were planning to do me in. Luckily, their sister and my wife Helena plus illegitimate brother Basil the eunuch told me all about it, and we got rid of my brothers-in-law

THIS is why the Byzantines have the reputation they do and the word "byzantine" means what it does! :PP

"So nice of you to join your old father, boys! And how wise of you to send me ahead so I'd make sure the monks know how to treat Emperors!"

Wow, really? That's awesome. Gotta imagine there were some pretty tense family dinners...

I guess killing a praying guy with your own hands is forgivable as long as you blame a woman for it.

Seems like it!

No, I never married or had kids the illegitimate way.

riiiight, you mentioned that before, right? Gosh. These poor kids.

I tried to foil him by jumping into the Rhine despite not being able to swim, thus proving my stubbornness early on, but the count who jumped after me fished me out of the Rhine and returned me to Hanno.

Have I mentioned, these poor kids? :(

Looking forward to someday getting to all these podcasts... :)

From:

selenak

THIS is why the Byzantines have the reputation they do and the word "byzantine" means what it does! :PP

Well, yes and no. This is the kind of thing people are thinking of, yes, but no, it didn't just happen in Byzantium but everywhere else as well, and Byzantium had just as many stable periods (as for example Basil II's reign (i.e. the one where he himself was in charge, not the regencies when he was a child and youth) - he could even afford to be on campaign for years, not return to Constantinople for the winter, without worrying that he'd get deposed. This is more than many an HRE Emperor could say for himself, and let's not even get into the Merovingian blood both in what became France, part of which is chronicled in "Dark Queens", the book Mildred recced me a while ago. I mean, that one culminates in a 70 plus old woman (one of the Queens of the title) being drawn and quartered in a truly vicious way by her rival's sole surviving son, complete with flaying while he was at it. The Carolingians later weren't that brutal with each other, but deposing of fathers and brothers complete with imprisonment and/or poisoning? Absolutely.

The reason why the term "Byzantine" became popular - as opposed to, I don't know, monarchical? Imperial? - is that in 1204, there was no getting around the fact that a Christian city had been brutally sacked by not just fellow Christians (this happened, what with all the inter Christian wars going on, and Team Byzantium had done their fair share of sacking in this regard, too) but doing explicitly so while on Crusade, i.e. on a mission where supposedly all violence was directed against infidels and for helping your fellow Christians, and that said sacking came with a gigantic robbery of not just worldly treasure but icons and relics. So in order to justify this, - the robbing of churches ON CRUSADE in addition to the general brutality - , Latin historians (Latin meaning here French, German, Italian et al) declared that Constantinople never deserved all these relics and icons etc, because they weren't real Christians, they were extra duplictious, they had kept betraying honest Latin Christians to the Muslims etc. etc. etc.. This image stuck around beyond the middle ages - from the quotes I've seen, Edward Gibbon totally goes for it -, but has been revised in current presentations.

BTW, needless to say: In Byzantine/Greek written Chronicles, the Latins are the ones constantly false, duplicituous, long before 1204. Which is as one sided and not true in that sense, either. But while venerating Ancient Greece, Western European historians for the longest time tended to belittle or ignore medieval Greek writers. Or ignore how strong the identification of later Greeks with Byzantium is. When I was at the Athens bookfair around 2000 or thereabouts, I talked with a lot of Greeks and the big cultural influence, the "our ancestors" kind of thing wasn't with Pericles et all, it was with Byzantium, and the poet quoted most often was Konstantin Kavavys from Alexandria, not Homer. There was quite a buzz due to the upcoming visit from the Pope, the first of a Pope ever, and whether he'd apologize for the 1204 sacking of Constantinople. (In Athens, mind.)

Wow, really? That's awesome. Gotta imagine there were some pretty tense family dinners...

IKR? But yes, that's that the chonicles say he said at least. :)

(Note that none of the three got blinded. Constantine VII, formerly Little C, was a nice guy in this regard. Or very confident his in-laws couldn't make a comeback.)

These poor kids.

Yep. As I said, little Otto lucked out and was the exception from the rule.

From:

cahn

Haha, I meant less the violence and more, the bit where everyone was planning to do everyone else in but was foiled by someone else planning to do someone else in. Though okay, yeah, I guess that happened everywhere :P (Although I'm now remembering Tarr's Aspasia saying something like, in Germany they rebel openly, in Byzantium they would have just snuck around and killed the previous emperor...)

There was quite a buzz due to the upcoming visit from the Pope, the first of a Pope ever, and whether he'd apologize for the 1204 sacking of Constantinople.

Gosh. It's always kind of amazing to me to realize how far back these old grudges go.

From:

selenak

Although I'm now remembering Tarr's Aspasia saying something like, in Germany they rebel openly, in Byzantium they would have just snuck around and killed the previous emperor..

Well, that's only true if you compare John Tzimitzikes' successful ursurpation with Henry the Quarellsome's failed attempt. A good number of Byzantine takeovers started the good old fashioned Roman way, by a very successful general getting hailed as Emperor by his troops. Now whether or not they then made it all the way to the throne depended on the era they lived in. If it was an unstable one, you got a whole series of Emperors in quick succession and all the outer enemies invading for added kicks. Otherwise, or if the reigning Emperor turned out to be very good at his job, you have the young Basil II vs Bardas Phokas versus Bardas Skleros situation, where both Bardas' were hailed by their respective troops as Emperor (Bardas Phokas twice, even), but got defeated nonetheless.

Meanwhile, in addition to the open rebellions, the Ottos and later the Salians accused their share of magnats of secretly conspiring against them, and then deposed said magnate. Correctly? Made up accusation against a potential troublemaker and/or easy way to get your hands on land and cash? Who knows.

...and then there's always the Fourth Crusade. Where Pope Innocent wanted everyone to go to Egypt because the situation there was unstable enough at the time that a potential conquest seemed possible, but "Go to Egypt" didn't sell as well as "Go to Jerusalem", so the preachers preached the traditional "Jerusalem!" creed. Meanwhile, Alexios the son of Isaac Angelos, who'd been blinded and deposed by his brother, also called Alexios, had escaped from his uncle's prison and made it to Germany where his sister Irene was the wife of Philip of Swabia, one of the two German kings currently duking it out in our very own War of the Roses (the other was Otto of Brunswick, and yes, they were both crowned Kings), and his in-laws thought bringing Alexios the younger to the throne, thereby getting the support of the next Byzantine Emperor, would be a great thing to have. And then there were two French nobles who made a deal with Enrico Dandolo the Doge of Venice to buy an entire fleet with money they didn't have, still with the end goal of going to Egypt, but the financing would be done by some sacking on the way... All of which converged into a situation where 90% of the army thought they were going to Jerusalem, the officers thought they were going to Egypt, and no only the leading generals knew they would have to go to Constantinople first, get Alexios on the throne and then get paid the fabled riches of the East Roman Empire, or else. As far as blatant dishonesty was easily the match of anything going on in Byzantium.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I can see I'm going to have to study the Byzantines one of these days! I know I've said that for over 10 years, but I said I was going to learn to read German for even longer, and it was thanks to you,

selenak, that it finally happened!

there's a heartrendering story of me wandering through the rooms the first time this happened, calling for her

Awwww. :((

"So nice of you to join your old father, boys! And how wise of you to send me ahead so I'd make sure the monks know how to treat Emperors!"'

WOOOW that's a great line!

As one historian put it, I married my army instead, though without pissing off the populace back home.

That's one way to succeed!

Whose idea of regency was to get even richer and let every noble do what they want.

I forget which, but one of the books I read on the subject really emphasized how much Henry IV's attempt to work against the nobility instead of with them must have had a lot to do with how singularly unimpressed he was with how they had handled things when he was a minor. And that made a lot of sense to me.

Thank you for the write-up and for all your write-ups on this subject, whether I reply or not!

From:

selenak

WOOOW that's a great line!

What I thought. So did Robin the podcaster. (Who is British, btw, meaning the accent flows way more melodiously than of the Thugs and Miracles gy.)

That's one way to succeed!

One might even call it the Frederician one. :) Seriously, there are a lot of parallels, including young Basil II being thought of as a soft luxury loving party guy (well, what else was he to do before being allowed to govern), and then, once he ousted Great Uncle Basil Lekapenos, remaking himself as an austere warrior king famous for his victories, living with the army, not marrying and only having a close circle of friends but no court (he left that party of being an Emperor to younger brother Constantine). Oh, and instead of the overcrowded Imperial Mausoleums, he wanted to be buried alone next to his favourite palace. Dogs were not mentioned, though.

I forget which, but one of the books I read on the subject really emphasized how much Henry IV's attempt to work against the nobility instead of with them must have had a lot to do with how singularly unimpressed he was with how they had handled things when he was a minor. And that made a lot of sense to me.

Indeed. Yes, going against your nobles at the same time you're steering towards a showdown with the Pope is a terrible mistake, but good lord, once the last of the Henry III installed Popes had died, neither the secular nor the ecclesiastical princes Henry had personal contact with in his childhood and youth were anything to write home about.